Skip to main content
Topic: Our leveling system problem (Read 3212 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #25
My understanding of how HWH works:

Front ride-height valve is always trying to raise whenever coach is low in front, whether ignition on or off, engine running or not. Leaking front top 6-pack valves will raise front air bags to travel position, changing level system setting.

Barry,

A followup - your information continues to be on point with our coach in storage for a couple of days.  It had raised itself somewhat, but maintained level and never went into excess slope.  It adjusted while Steve was working on the in-dash computer/radio even in the "raise curbside, raise rear" sequence that had previously caused the front to raise.  Theorizing, I suspect the ride height valve was "satisfied" at some point during the level, unlike out front of our house where the front has to be squatted.

Our front six pack 12 o-ring kit should be here tomorrow. 

There will be dinner in your and Cindy's future if this solves it :D 

Michelle
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

Lifetime Escapees' member SKP 82766
Former 1999 30IB Lazy Daze (2000-2004)
Former 2003 U320 (2004-2016)
Former 2017 LTV Unity (2017-2023)
Shopping for our next coach

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #26
Steve and Michelle,

I think you asked me earlier about the numbers of the o-rings I bought at Crump Plumbing Supply.  The small one was 015 and the large one was 028.  Both have a cross section of 1/16".  Cost was .25 each.  I bought a few more for spares.  Outer o-ring leaks should be easy to detect with soapy water, inner is more difficult.  An inner leak on the travel or raise solenoid could raise a low air bag.  Same thing could happen with a leak at the valve seat.  In my case the leaking valve seat on a lower solenoid, kept lowering that corner.  BTW I can not level fore and aft in the street in front of my house; I can level side to side.  Yesterday leveled it side to side and turned it off, today it is still level. 
Jerry Whiteaker former owner 96 U270  36' #4831 Austin,TX-Owner Mods LCD TV w/front cabinet rebuild - LCD TV bedroom - Dual Central AC, either can cool coach w 30 amp - Skylights at roof AC openings - Drop ceiling for ducting of AC - Shower skylight white gelcoat/wood/epoxy frame - Air Springs/Shocks replaced - 2014 CRV - 8K Home Solar - Chevy Volt

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #27
I think you asked me earlier about the numbers of the o-rings I bought at Crump Plumbing Supply.  The small one was 015 and the large one was 028.  Both have a cross section of 1/16". 

Jerry,

Karma to you! 

Michelle

Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

Lifetime Escapees' member SKP 82766
Former 1999 30IB Lazy Daze (2000-2004)
Former 2003 U320 (2004-2016)
Former 2017 LTV Unity (2017-2023)
Shopping for our next coach

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #28
Michelle,
I have been feeling the frustration your having, was going to suggest that just maybe there might be a loose wire or one rubbing on a ground somewhere. I know these types of things can be brutal.  We do a lot of control work and sometimes you find some unlikely issues.

Anyway it got me started to wonder about my air compressor running every few hours, so yesterday I grabbed one of my employees with great ears, young feller, small, 125 lbs, 5'3" right size for lots of things.  Anyway using soapy spray, found only one leak, on the air tank behind front axle, one fitting was leaking, with about half a turn, it stopped. Went over every air line we could find. Have not heard the compressor since. Wonder if it quit.
Good luck

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #29
Quote
I think you asked me earlier about the numbers of the o-rings I bought at Crump Plumbing Supply.  The small one was 015 and the large one was 028.  Both have a cross section of 1/16".
We got the official HWH RAP6554 kit today (about .65 for each o-ring) and I measured them with my vernier dial calipers.

I came up with a cross section of .068 which correlates to a 1/16 0-ring.  A 1/16 O-ring is listed as .070 actual on the AS568A chart.

The small one I measured as .688 OD which corresponds to a #015 which is listed as .691 OD on the AS568A chart

The large one I measured as 1.498 OD which corresponds to a #028 which is listed as 1.504 OD on the AS568A chart

So I think we can pretty much confirm that those are the proper O-rings  ^.^d

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #30
... young feller, small, 125 lbs, 5'3" right size for lots of things.  Anyway using soapy spray, found only one leak, ...
Geez! Was it so tight under there that you had to use soapy spray on the young feller to get him to the right places to listen? Did you tie him to a stick and poke him up near the fittings? (Kent made me ask those questions.)  :P  :P
J D Stevens
1997 U295 CAI 36' Build #5085
2002 Subaru Outback
Motorcade 16869
Bellville, TX

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #31
Don't blame me for those questions, however they were pretty good. OK, I'll take credit for it!!!

Dave, what kind of soap did you spray him with?
The selected media item is not currently available.Kent Speers
Locust Grove, OK
1993 U300 SSE 40' (Restored at FOT 2009) Build 4323
720 watts Solar
6V92TA DDEC Silver Engine
2014 Subaru Outback

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #32
No soap, heck we just smeared chicken fat on him, and in he went, getting him out was real tough tho, he did not want to come back out until I promised him a drum stick.
You never know about em red neck kids.

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #33
A small update to the continuing saga...

FOT found several leaks in the rear sixpacks

The coach is no longer settling/exhausting frequently and we don't have the long duration "air dump" sound coming out the back. 

And yet another update....  (and thank you for indulging my "thinking out loud")

 it's starting to look like there were multiple problems, several of which are fixed, at least one still remains.

No more listing to curbside rear and going into excess slope.  Rear sixpack o-rings fixed that.

Haven't been in the situation where the rear has had to pump up while camped/level, so don't know if the front sixpack o-rings fixed the front raising with the rear pump up.

Long duration rear exhaust is back

Michelle
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

Lifetime Escapees' member SKP 82766
Former 1999 30IB Lazy Daze (2000-2004)
Former 2003 U320 (2004-2016)
Former 2017 LTV Unity (2017-2023)
Shopping for our next coach

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #34

And yet another update.... 

Long duration rear exhaust is back

More data for anyone following....

Yesterday Steve aired up, then releveled the coach then shut off the leveling system.  Both tanks at 122 psi.  I measured the airbags plate-to-plate (with the exception of the tag ones, which are not easy to access safely).

Driver Front 8.25 and 8.75
Passenger Front 8.375 and 8.125

Driver rear 4.875 and 4.625
Passenger rear 5.125 and 5.0

This morning. 24 hours later.  Coach appears lower behind, feels slightly lower behind.  Both air tanks at 69 psi.  The coach is not resting on the frame/tires anywhere.

Driver Front 11.25 and 11.75  an increase of approximately 3 inches and looks insanely inflated
Passenger Front 9.625 and 9.75 and increase of approximately 1.5 inches and looks quite inflated

Driver rear 4.875 and 4.75  roughly no change
Passenger rear 5.0 and 4.875 roughly no change

Steve manually releveled (lowering the front) and shut the system off again (had the long duration exhaust sound from the rear when he turned the ignition on to level).  Air tanks both remained at 69 psi.

So what would cause the front to raise 1.5-3 inches even with the leveling system turned off?  Front has all new 6-pack o-rings.  Bad solenoids allowing leak through?

Michelle
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

Lifetime Escapees' member SKP 82766
Former 1999 30IB Lazy Daze (2000-2004)
Former 2003 U320 (2004-2016)
Former 2017 LTV Unity (2017-2023)
Shopping for our next coach

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #35
Michelle,
Could be a bad/weak spring on the plunger that holds the "O" ring next to the seat/seal. (I don't have a pic. of the part)  This could cause the air to leak by. If it was a bad solenoid (electromagnet) it shouldn't pull the plunger and let in air to re level. Hope this makes sense.
Pamela & Mike
Pamela & Mike 97 U 320

"It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters."

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #36
Could be a bad/weak spring on the plunger that holds the "O" ring next to the seat/seal. (I don't have a pic. of the part)  This could cause the air to leak by.

Pamela,

Would you suspect the raise solenoids more than the travel ones since both sides measured above typical ride height (IIRC that would be 8 1/2" between the plates), the driver's side especially at 11+ inches?  Or do the ride height valves not limit this when the leveling system is off?

I don't know if the solenoid plungers can be rebuilt with new springs and seats or not (if those parts are available from HWH).  If they are, we'd likely buy a couple full solenoids plus a couple sets of parts to rebuild the old ones to carry as spares.

Michelle
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

Lifetime Escapees' member SKP 82766
Former 1999 30IB Lazy Daze (2000-2004)
Former 2003 U320 (2004-2016)
Former 2017 LTV Unity (2017-2023)
Shopping for our next coach

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #37
Steve and Michelle,

Thinking about your problem, it appears that you have at least 2 leaks.  Air is leaking into the front air bags and leaking out of the rear air bags.  Since you have replaced all the o-rings, the leak most likely is at the seating surface of the valve/valves.  For each set of air bags (2) left front, right front, etc.  2 solenoid valves admit air and 1 valve exhausts air.  When in the travel mode the travel solenoid valves are always open and the HCV admits and exhausts air.  When all power is off, all the solenoid valves are closed.  The leveling system when in use closes and opens the other 4 solenoid valves on a manifold to admit and release air on an individual basis for a set of bags, but more than one can be open depending on buttons pushed or what the auto leveling is doing.  The HCV valves are always trying to exhaust or add air except when in the neutral (correct ride height) position.  With the travel solenoids closed the HCV's cannot do either.  A leaking travel solenoid would send air to the HCV, but the HCV unless defective would not raise the air bags past travel height.  If it maintains the proper ride height in the travel mode the HCV is okay.  Therefore it appears that both front "air in" manifold solenoids are leaking.  You did not say if one rear side was lower than the other, if so this can also cause a difference in the height of the front air bags.  Since the rear is lower, suspect a leak in an  exhaust solenoid there.  On my coach the top solenoids are the travel solenoids; the middle solenoids are for exhausting air; and the bottom solenoids admit air.  Could be different on your coach, but most likely it is the same. 

Try the same procedure tonight except after the coach is level, pump down the brake tank pressure to about 60 psi and see what happens.  The front bags should not inflate as air will not be available to inflate them.  It is possible that they might leak down though if pressure in the bags is greater than in the tank. 

The solenoids can be disassembled to inspect them.  They are rather simple devices.  Just unscrew the steel part from the brass part. There is a cone shaped seat, a piston like plunger with a plastic insert that rests on the seat when closed and a spring to keep it closed when the solenoid coil is not energized.  The wiring does not need to be disconnected to remove the coil which is held on by one nut.  Then the valve can be unscrewed from the manifold.  The manifold should not be pitted where the o-rings seat.  A little grease on the o-rings is recommended.  If the piston plastic seating surface has more than one indentation from the cone shaped seat, that could be the source of the leak.  That was the case on one of my solenoids.  I was able to correct the leak by chucking the piston in a lathe and removing just enough of the plastic insert so that is was smooth again.  The internal parts of the solenoid are not available except for o-rings, and the coil, from what I have been able to find out. 
Jerry Whiteaker former owner 96 U270  36' #4831 Austin,TX-Owner Mods LCD TV w/front cabinet rebuild - LCD TV bedroom - Dual Central AC, either can cool coach w 30 amp - Skylights at roof AC openings - Drop ceiling for ducting of AC - Shower skylight white gelcoat/wood/epoxy frame - Air Springs/Shocks replaced - 2014 CRV - 8K Home Solar - Chevy Volt

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #38
I just upped you karma 1.
 
Where was this very concise and true message when I started with my problem last December.

It took better than a month, but I finally relized just exactly what you just said. It is really
 a simple system to troubleshoot now. ( except for the auto level which depends on the brain & sensor)
1993 U300, 6v92
build 4366
USAF retired, Flight Engineer, C124, C130
 ATP, A & E.  & ex AI

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #39
Very well stated, Jerry.  Thank you for sorting out the facts of the leveling system and writting 'em down in an order that makes sense!  Karma to you.
Bill Jackson & Kim Sweeney
24' Lazy Daze TK
SKP Lifetime member #105622
2002 U320 PBDS 36' (Sold)
Build 5941

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #40
A leaking travel solenoid would send air to the HCV, but the HCV unless defective would not raise the air bags past travel height.  If it maintains the proper ride height in the travel mode the HCV is okay.  Therefore it appears that both front "air in" manifold solenoids are leaking.  You did not say if one rear side was lower than the other, if so this can also cause a difference in the height of the front air bags.  Since the rear is lower, suspect a leak in an  exhaust solenoid there. 

Jerry,

Thank you, great explanation - that's also what Pamela and Mike are suggesting via PM. 

I don't think we have a leak out the rear at this point, although we definitely did prior to replacing the rear o-rings.  After 48 hours, the 4 accessible airbags at the rear are all still basically the same.  The coach doesn't appear to be resting on the rails; there is room above the tires and all 4 bags have decent pressure (by feel).  Now, I couldn't reach to measure the tag airbags... 

The coach does go to correct travel height all around (8.5") and stay there when in travel mode.  Going from travel height to level on our current site, the front airbags remained at travel height of 8.5" and the rear lowered to approximately 5" at the start of the test.  (this site is very slightly front low)  After 24 hours, the rear was still about 5", the front had raised above travel height, more on one side than the other. (11"+ driver's side, 9"+ passenger).

After Steve manually leveled yesterday we shut the leveling system off again.  At the start, pressure on both air tanks was 69 psi.  The aux compressor came on twice in the 24 hours.  It will only pressurize to about 80-90 psi (as opposed to the 120+ of the main engine compressor, which we used yesterday to go to travel mode).  With that lower pressure, this morning the rear was still the same 5" and the front was again around 11" driver's side, 8.75" passenger side and the air tanks were 85 psi.

We have just releveled (letting the system do so), this time without the engine running to keep the tank pressures lower, and have pulled the fuse for the aux compressor.  I think that should prevent pressure build up in the A and B tanks but still allow the pump to run if needed for the slide bladder seals.

Tomorrow we'll order a couple replacement solenoids.  Since we're traveling, resurfacing the seals on the old ones will have to wait since Steve didn't bring the Rikon or the Nova DVR XP with us  :))

Michelle
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

Lifetime Escapees' member SKP 82766
Former 1999 30IB Lazy Daze (2000-2004)
Former 2003 U320 (2004-2016)
Former 2017 LTV Unity (2017-2023)
Shopping for our next coach

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #41
Anyone have a "best price" supplier for the HWH manifold normally closed solenoids?  I think it's RAP1940.

Thanks!
Learn every day, but especially from the experiences of others. It's cheaper!  - John C. Bogle

Lifetime Escapees' member SKP 82766
Former 1999 30IB Lazy Daze (2000-2004)
Former 2003 U320 (2004-2016)
Former 2017 LTV Unity (2017-2023)
Shopping for our next coach

Re: Our leveling system problem

Reply #42
Interesting discussion.  In NM with ground much higher rear than front, so the bags on front had to do a lot of lifting, I heard in morning a lot of air dumped from the front, then the auxilliary compressor came on and per yellow lights was responding to low front or low driver side.  The frequency of this behavior increased to every thirty minutes for a few cycles.  Then just the aux compressor ran at times.  I was worried I would not be able to drive home, so talked to MOT.  They had me turn on the ignition, turn off the HWH system and watch the coach for three hours.  Coach stayed level.  So, I guess, not an air leak?  In fact, I left it that way five days until drove home and with a level on the dash, the coach stayed level just fine with, of course, no dumping of air and no aux compressor coming on.  It is now at MOT to try to figure what was going on, but by turning on ignition, turned off the HWH, then off the ignition, MOT gave temporary relief.  (Travel mode coming home worked just fine).  Hope this helps.  Mike
Mike
2001 U320 4010 Build 5878 (Gus)
Wrangle Unlimited Toad
Nacogdoches