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Topic: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration (Read 2690 times) previous topic - next topic

Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Great!  Maybe we'll have to have a Battleborn rally in a few months to compare installs and notes.  Or we should at least start a new thread to compare install and notes.
Several others have already installed these batteries and posted good information in various postings.  While they are considered a "drop in" replacement for a lead acid battery due to their internal Battery Management System, there are issues and considerations for properly integrating them.  As these batteries seem to be getting more popular, this new topic is created specifically for the technical discussion of integrating Battle Born batteries into FT coaches

To start with a relevant issue:

These batteries are capable of accepting very high current charge rates, which aren't good for the battery or the alternator.  What, if any, modifications need to be made to protect the alternator from overheating? 

Battleborn generically recommends either a Sterling Power Battery to Battery Charger 12V input to 12V output 30amp DC... (for 2 or fewer batteries) or a LiFePO4 Battery Isolation Manager - Battle Born Batteries (for 3 or more batteries).  I'm not sure this takes into account the specific configuration of our coaches, which already have battery isolation & high output alternators.  The BB Isolation Manager is only an automated switch that connects the house batteries to the chassis batteries periodically under certain conditions.  It is not a direct replacement for our standard isolators & It does not limit the current from the alternator.  It is a timer that allows charging from the alternator for 15 minutes out of every 35, giving it time to cool between cycles.  They have also indicated that the relatively long distance between our alternators and the house batteries may help to protect the alternator.  I plan to monitor the charging output with a clamp meter at the alternator, at the isolator and at the batteries to make sure nothing is overloaded and hopefully not need any new hardware.  Anyone already dealt with this?

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #1
What I did on my Newell when I installed 1000 amp hours of Winston cells was to use a Balmar MC-614 external regulator.  It had many different configurations to protect the alternator and also to limit max voltage and to set float volts.  This protected both the alternator from overheating and the belts.
But I'll probably add a cutoff switch between the isolator and house batteries (thanks to Brett Wolfe's suggestion).  I'll be relying on solar, then inverter for charging.  And only use the engine once the SOC of the BB batteries have gotten up to a safe enough level to turn on the alternator.  What are these values?  Don't know yet, it'll be somewhat trial and error.
Also I have the Prosine 2500 inverter.  According to BB I'll be able to set the bulk, absorb, and float values to an acceptable level.
My Victron Smartsolar 75/15 is programmable to what BB likes.
Forest & Cindy Olivier
1987 log cabin
2011 Roadtrek C210P
no longer 1999 36' U320 build #5522
2013 Rzr 570 & 2018 Ranger XP1000
2006 Lexus GX470
2011 Tahoe LT 4x4
Previous 1998 45' 2 slide Newell, 1993 39' Newell

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #2
I have two Victron solar controllers and a Victron inverter/charger. Will try as suggested, a disconnect between alternator and lithium batteries and monitor their SOC. Hopefully solar will supply the majority of the charge I need. I do have a absorption fridge.
Jim C.
coachfree, previous 1997, 1999, 2000, and 2003 Foretravels.

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #3
My batteries should be delivered on Tuesday next week! 
Went by the coach today and did some measurements, etc.  The battery cables I have are all for a post connection where the BB's will have a tab (flag) with a bolt, so I'll either have to cut off the connectors and crimp on connectors on all the cable ends or buy a "flag to post terminal adapter".  BB has these for $10/pair and I'll need 3 pair.  I just ordered these for $1.06 each from Delcity.
Also checked my alternator and it is a Leece Neville 160 amp. 
Forest & Cindy Olivier
1987 log cabin
2011 Roadtrek C210P
no longer 1999 36' U320 build #5522
2013 Rzr 570 & 2018 Ranger XP1000
2006 Lexus GX470
2011 Tahoe LT 4x4
Previous 1998 45' 2 slide Newell, 1993 39' Newell

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #4
My batteries arrived on Friday and I installed them yesterday.  I used the existing racks but added plywood floors for support and to utilize the extra shelf space gained by the smaller batteries.  I shed 400 lbs while maintaining about the same usable 300 amphours that I had with the AGM's at a 40% discharge.  I always tried to recharge at 30% discharged and rarely ever took them down to 50%.

The only issue worth noting for the installation is that the bolts provided by Battle Born are too short.  With only one of my cable terminals attached, the locking nuts wouldn't thread far enough to reach the nylon.  Add 2 or more cables, and a longer bolt is required.  But, too long of a bolt won't work either because it will hit the battery case.  They could have provided longer bolts that would have worked for most situations, and they could have designed the terminals and the case a little better.

After installing, I set my Magnum MS2812 inverter/charger to Custom battery type, with the following settings:
- Capacity: 300ah
- Absorb: 14.6v
- Float: 13.6v
- Absorb Time: .3
- Final Stage: Float
- Max Charge: 100%
- Auto Efficiency: On

An issue that I hadn't realized until talking to Magnum about the above settings is that the Magnum charger will not start bulk charging these batteries automatically when AC power is applied.  Due to the high voltage of the Battle Born batteries, they will almost always be well above the trigger setting on the charger.  So, the charger sees a "full" battery at anything above 12.7 or 12.8v and won't start bulk charging a partially depleted Battle Born at 13.2v, for instance.  The workaround provided by Magnum is not a great one.  The charger has to be manually forced into Re-Bulk mode every time it's plugged into shore or generator power.  Otherwise it goes directly to float mode, which will charge the batteries but will take  very long time.  Fine for putting the RV in storage at the end of the trip but not ok for recharging with the generator during a trip.  It's only a couple of button presses on the remote panel but still a hassle.  Battle Born tech support suggested that putting the charger in CC-CV (constant current, constant voltage) mode may solve the problem but I have not explored that option yet.

After getting the settings correct, I wanted to test my alternator charging.  These batteries have the potential to accept very high current that is not good for them or for the alternator.  50amps is the max recommended per battery x 3 = 150amps, which my 160amp alternator isn't likely to exceed.  My concern is more for the alternator and the belt.  I reset my total amphours out meter to 0, started the Samsung fridge and ran the convection oven for 40 minutes, which drained 80ah's from the batteries.  I started the engine, warmed it up, turned on the lights and idle'd at 1500rpm.  Total amps out at the alternator peaked at about 127amps with 110 of that measured at the batteries.  That's well under the limit for the batteries but I don't know if that's a safe load for the alternator to run for hours at a time.  Battle Born recommends their Battery Isolation Manager or a DC-DC charger, both of which I'll be considering.  A cutoff switch, as others have mentioned, is also an option but I think I'd rather not go that way.

So far I'm happy with the batteries and looking forward to some real-world testing.  I'll also be adding a little bit of solar to help extend them further between charges while dry camping.



Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #5
Next time you check the alternator charging use your infrared temp gun to watch the temperature at the alternator case and the belts.
Install looks good! 
Forest & Cindy Olivier
1987 log cabin
2011 Roadtrek C210P
no longer 1999 36' U320 build #5522
2013 Rzr 570 & 2018 Ranger XP1000
2006 Lexus GX470
2011 Tahoe LT 4x4
Previous 1998 45' 2 slide Newell, 1993 39' Newell

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #6
I moved the house bank off the isolator and kept my trickle charger from the house to the engine batteries.. so far so good.. Alternator charges the engine only at this point.. havnt decided what is next

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #7
I have no direct knowledge but a quick reading of the online manual for the Magnum advanced remote control (ME-ARC) seems to show a custom setting where the charger can be set to come on in  bulk charge.

I do not think the std ME-RC has that ability.

Not sure it will do what you want but a call to magnum or a reading of the online manual might show if the advanced remote will help your issue.

Had not thought about the li-ion not having a voltage drop to trigger the charging circuit.

Do the battle born batteries have an internal battery management system? 


"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob & Susan
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #8
Do the battle born batteries have an internal battery management system? 

With a quick reading of the online manual https://battlebornbatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/BB10012-Cut-Sheet.pdf

Yes.

Mike
Pamela & Mike 97 U 320

"It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters."

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #9
"... a quick reading of the online manual for the Magnum advanced remote control (ME-ARC) seems to show a custom setting where the charger can be set to come on in  bulk charge. "

I believe you're referring to the "Start Bulk" feature?  That's the manual setting that I referred to above.  It has to be reset every time the batteries are charged.  Here's what the manual says about it:

Start Bulk – This selection restarts the Bulk cycle from any stage in the charge cycle as long
as AC is present and the charger is active. The Start Bulk setting is useful when a full multistage
charge cycle does not bring the specific gravity of the batteries to the proper level.
Info: The Start Bulk selection automatically returns to Multi-Stage once the status
displays "Bulk Charging"
(or "Constant Current" if battery type CC/CV is selected).



Researching a little further, it looks like the CC-CV battery type settings may solve the problem.  Magnum tech support mentioned this setting but recommended staying with the Custom battery type.  I'll need to call them back to see if CC-CV is a good option, and how to configure it.



"Do the battle born batteries have an internal battery management system?"


Yes, but their internal BMS only protects against overcharging, drawing too many AH's out before re-charging, charging outside of safe temperatures etc.  The other variables like charge rate & charge voltage are determined by the external charger.


Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #11
Following Brett's comments in earlier posts I chose to separate the dissimilar batteries by moving to a manual switch instead of an isolator.  In the two and a half years of our install, I have never had the need for alternator charging of house.  In essence, the DUVAC set up is no longer used.  The capability is there but not used to date. The 1180 Solar provides all the charging needed and if it falls short a quick genset run is sufficient.  We have done that only two or three times in the last couple of years and only because of my skittish behavior when I see percentages in the high 50%.  There is a bit of behavioral adjustment when you first switch over.
George and Steph
1997 U270 36 Build 5081 "Honu"
1180w Solar 400A lithium all Victron house system
Motorcade 17670, SKP 128300, FMCA F459019
73 VW Camper, 79 VW Camper, 2363 Sunline, and an Arctic Fox 25P

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #12
At the coach today doing a few things and planning out the BB install.  The easiest way will be to put the BBs on the lower rack where the gels currently are.  But I've never been accused of doing things the easy way....  So since I'll probably be removing the Bose it looks like there is just enough room where the sub is under the sofa to mount the BBs laying on their side.  I can fit 2 together at 18" wide and the 3rd in front of these which is an 18" x 26" footprint.  Looks like they will just fit, then have to run the 2 battery cables through the floor.  This will have the BBs inside which should protect them from extreme temps. 
Should get the BBs tomorrow and will get the exact dimensions, then make sure the battery cables will be flexible enough to fit there also.  This would also give me more storage where the gels were.
Forest & Cindy Olivier
1987 log cabin
2011 Roadtrek C210P
no longer 1999 36' U320 build #5522
2013 Rzr 570 & 2018 Ranger XP1000
2006 Lexus GX470
2011 Tahoe LT 4x4
Previous 1998 45' 2 slide Newell, 1993 39' Newell

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #13
I'm confused... are you really going camping in  minus 4 temps?

Are there any temperature restrictions on your LiFePO4 batteries? - Battle...

Maybe I'm being toooo simplistic, but by "drop in" like stated 99% no issues and similar parameters for other types of batteries.

Alternator charging.. says it's ok so I called. BMS Handel's how much charge accepts with our Duval 1 60amp

Seriously thinking this would help my space issue.

The selected media item is not currently available.
My advice and experiences are Free, you decide if they are worth anything .

John - driving Old Faithful
1994 U280 GV
C8.3, Banks, Pacbrake, 900 watts, Resonator, XLHD tow dolly
Retired Army Warrant Officer

Life is what you make of it - if it is lemons, make lemonade!
Former Coaches:
1988 GV 40' ORED 300HP CAT - 9 years
1990 Winnebago LeSharo - 3 years
2000 Newmar London Aire - 3 years (#18 of 23 produced)

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #14
I believe the BMS shuts off charging at +25deg, not -4.  You can pull power from them at a much lower temp than you can charge them.  Moving them inside is a great option if you plan to use them in below freezing temps, and the temp inside the bay would normally be quite a bit higher than outside.  For me, the bay temps dipping below freezing would be a very rare situation and a simple space heater in the bay could solve the problem.

As far as the alternator, yes the BMS will limit the total AH's of charge but it won't limit the amps that the batteries will accept to get there.  They're going to take as much as the alternator can send them.  I tested and my alternator is producing over 110 amps just to feed the batteries.  Does it work?  Yes.  Is it good for the alternator?  Maybe not.  I know the alternator got pretty hot, and I only ran it for about 15 minutes.  Running it for the hours that would be required to recharge a bank of batteries without some protection seems risky.  Battle Born highly recommends the 2 options that I mentioned in the 1st posting, depending on how many batteries you have.

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #15
I believe the BMS shuts off charging at +25deg, not -4.  You can pull power from them at a much lower temp than you can charge them.  Moving them inside is a great option if you plan to use them in below freezing temps, and the temp inside the bay would normally be quite a bit higher than outside.  For me, the bay temps dipping below freezing would be a very rare situation and a simple space heater in the bay could solve the problem.
As far as the alternator, yes the BMS will limit the total AH's of charge but it won't limit the amps that the batteries will accept to get there.  They're going to take as much as the alternator can send them.  I tested and my alternator is producing over 110 amps just to feed the batteries.  Does it work?  Yes.  Is it good for the alternator?  Maybe not.  I know the alternator got pretty hot, and I only ran it for about 15 minutes.  Running it for the hours that would be required to recharge a bank of batteries without some protection seems risky.  Battle Born highly recommends the 2 options that I mentioned in the 1st posting, depending on how many batteries you have.
I have the same and a slightly different problem. I have a battery combiner that will connect house and start batteries if either bank over 13 volts. could be hard on start batteries if charging lithiums at 14.4 volts. I think I will just remove it and use solar and inverter/charger to charge lithiums. In an emergency can always use boost switch to combine banks.
Jim C.
coachfree, previous 1997, 1999, 2000, and 2003 Foretravels.

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #16
I tested my rebuilt LN 160 amp alternator and the inverter by baking a dish in the convection microwave driving across the desert for several hours.  No gen.  Batteries were low also.  Lots of gauge/voltage  fluttering as the oven cycled on and off.  Nothing failed. 

Dan at Lewco in Costa Mesa, ca rebuilt and tested the output on the neatest old Bakelite, made in Chicago,  machine.

He noted the oem LN has large heat sinks for max loads. 

As far as the ME-RC versus the ME-ARC remotes being better suited or even capable of being able to run a li-ion battery bank seems to be an unknown at least by me.







"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob & Susan
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #17
After a couple of cryptic email answers from Magnum tech support today, the Constant Current/Constant Voltage option is apparently supposed to solve the bulk charging problem.  Why didn't they tell me that in the 1st place?  There's got to be a downside to CC/CV but they aren't responding to that part of my question.  I won't be able to test it now for a couple of weeks.

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #18
Regarding climate control of lithium batteries, I:

- Insulated the house battery box by extending the divider between the diesel fuel tank, installing insulation and a rubber door seal
- Drilled two 3 inch holes on the ceiling of the battery box. One for intake under the couch and one for exhaust under the fridge.
- Installed a 3 inch 115VAC fan to circulate climate-controlled cabin air into the battery box. The fan only draws 5 watts. This keeps the batteries between 40 and 90 degrees F. The only down side is that the coach has to be heated to about 45F during the winter and cooled to 85F during the summer even if the rig is not being used. Since I don't winterize, the energy is not wasted in the winter.
- Mounted the batteries with a one inch air spacing from the floor, since there is thermal bridging with the steel structural members on the basement floor. I should have insulated the batteries with 2 inch polyisocyanurate rigid insulation, which is R13.
1997 U270 34FT Build 5140 Cummins 8.3 Allison 3060R
Solar 1920Watts, 14KWH lithium. Orion BMS.

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #19
Regarding climate control of lithium batteries, I:

- Insulated the house battery box by extending the divider between the diesel fuel tank, installing insulation and a rubber door seal
- Drilled two 3 inch holes on the ceiling of the battery box. One for intake under the couch and one for exhaust under the fridge.
- Installed a 3 inch 115VAC fan to circulate climate-controlled cabin air into the battery box. The fan only draws 5 watts. This keeps the batteries between 40 and 90 degrees F. The only down side is that the coach has to be heated to about 45F during the winter and cooled to 85F during the summer even if the rig is not being used. Since I don't winterize, the energy is not wasted in the winter.
- Mounted the batteries with a one inch air spacing from the floor, since there is thermal bridging with the steel structural members on the basement floor. I should have insulated the batteries with 2 inch polyisocyanurate rigid insulation, which is R13.
Appears the Battle Born with the built in BMS are pretty tolerant compared to early lithiums. If you stay out of extreme temps, you will probably be okay.
Battle Born 100 Ah LiFePO4 12 Volt Deep Cycle Battery
I try not to get below 40 or so, and above 110 or so, ambient. This is the advertisement, will see how it works in the real world.
Jim C.
coachfree, previous 1997, 1999, 2000, and 2003 Foretravels.

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #20
Extreme temperatures occur frequently. For example:

C O L D
I was in Laffayette, LA (near the Gulf coast) in January and there was a rare ice storm that lasted for days. The detrimental phenomenon is called "Lithium Plating". The article below states: ..."When charging at above-freezing temperatures, the lithium ions inside the battery are soaked up as in a sponge by the porous graphite that makes up the anode, the negative terminal of the battery. Below freezing, however, the lithium ions aren't efficiently captured by the anode. Instead, many lithium ions coat the surface of the anode, a process called lithium plating, which means there's less lithium available to cause the flow of electricity and the battery's capacity drops."

H O T
In the hot summer, the sun will beat down on the side of the rig, causing the battery compartment to reach 120F. Technomadia, a popular RV couple and website, noticed that their expensive non-climate-controlled LiFePo4 batteries had reduced capacity, probably due to high temperatures. Many Nissan Leaf batteries had to be replaced early in the hot desert southwest due to excessive hear and lack of a battery climate control system, a Nissan design mistake.

SUMMARY
Without climate control, the batteries would have been damaged in both cases. This damage does not appear right away. It appears years later in reduced capacity. Here is a relevant article from the web:

EVEN MORE DETAILS
Lithium Battery for Cold Weather Applications | RELiON

"Lithium iron phosphate batteries can be safely discharged over a wide range of temperatures, typically from –20°C to 60°C, which makes them practical for use in all-weather conditions faced by many potentially cold temperature applications including RVs and off-grid solar. In fact, lithium-ion batteries have much better performance at colder temperatures than lead-acid batteries. At 0°C, for example, a lead-acid battery's capacity is reduced by up to 50%, while a lithium iron phosphate battery suffers only a 10% loss at the same temperature.

The Challenge of Low-Temperature Lithium Charging
When it comes to recharging lithium-ion batteries, however, there's one hard and fast rule: to prevent irreversible damage to the battery, don't charge them when the temperature falls below freezing (0°C or 32°F) without reducing the charge current. Unless your battery management system (BMS) communicates with your charger, and the charger has the ability to react to the data provided, this can be difficult to do.

What's the reason behind this important rule?

When charging at above-freezing temperatures, the lithium ions inside the battery are soaked up as in a sponge by the porous graphite that makes up the anode, the negative terminal of the battery. Below freezing, however, the lithium ions aren't efficiently captured by the anode. Instead, many lithium ions coat the surface of the anode, a process called lithium plating, which means there's less lithium available to cause the flow of electricity and the battery's capacity drops. Charging below 0°C at an inappropriate charge rate, also causes the battery to become less mechanically stable and more prone to sudden failure.

The damage to the battery when charging at colder temperatures is proportional to the charging rate. Charging at a much slower rate can reduce the damage, but this is rarely a practical solution. In most cases, if a lithium-ion battery is charged below freezing even once, it will be permanently damaged and must be safely discarded or recycled."
1997 U270 34FT Build 5140 Cummins 8.3 Allison 3060R
Solar 1920Watts, 14KWH lithium. Orion BMS.

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #21
Good points Tim, if it looks like a hard freeze, I will probably be plugged in somewhere with bay heaters on. My batteries are also in next compartment to aquahot, so doubt they would see 32 f.
I would turn off my inverter/charger and solar chargers if it did get very cold but believe battle born bms with disconnect batteries from charger or inverter  if too hot or too cold.
What is a BMS? - Battle Born Batteries
Jim C.
coachfree, previous 1997, 1999, 2000, and 2003 Foretravels.

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #22
Yes, the BMS is there to protect the battery from charging at too low or too high temps, and the 8-10yr warranty backs that up.  I think I'll trust it to do it's job while I also monitor my bay temps.  If I the temps are frequently getting out of range, I'll explore options for permanently dealing with it.  Until then, I see no reason to fix what probably isn't broke.

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #23
If the battery suddenly disconnects from the charger, a voltage spike could damage both the charger and 12 Volt DC load electronics like the fridge, heater, AC and hot water heater. This depends on the design of the system. This is why I have big honking 15 Volt zener diodes across my house 12 VDC bus. The BMS should send a disconnect signal to the charger to stop charging but shoukd keep supplying 12VDC to the house.

Conversely, the BMS should shut down the battery load if necessary, but this should not harm any electronics.
1997 U270 34FT Build 5140 Cummins 8.3 Allison 3060R
Solar 1920Watts, 14KWH lithium. Orion BMS.

Re: Battle Born LiFePO4 Battery Integration

Reply #24
Not sure Foretravels with inverter/chargers have the ability to stop charging batteries but still supply 12 volts to the coach. The battle born batteries do not communicate with the charger. I look at the automatic battery disconnect feature as sort of a fuse in case of a catastrophic failure. For as much as they cost, I will be keeping a close eye on temps and operation. If anything looks suspicious, inverter and charger,  and any sensitive 12 volt loads will be turned off by me before battery has to disconnect itself.
Jim C.
coachfree, previous 1997, 1999, 2000, and 2003 Foretravels.