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Topic: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup (Read 2537 times) previous topic - next topic

CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Rather than resurrect the original thread (whose title can't be edited at this point) I thought I'd start a new followup.

After a delay for Thanksgiving, the coach was towed (a disaster worthy of its own topic) into the CAT dealer for evaluation and repair.  Initial report is that the pressure testing showed leakage in the No. 6 cylinder.  For me there is always some orientation confusion when talking to predominantly truck people, but it seems that this is the most forward cylinder in our set-up and indicative of more than a simple water pump or oil cooler issue.

They are now stripping stuff off the engine in preparation to remove it.  This may be close to completion at this point since I didn't talk with them today.

More to follow.
Regards

1997 U295 40 with CAT 3126

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #1
I cringe when I think of someone towing my Foretravel.

Interesting. Mine was a bad # 6, all the rest were fine. Head gasket looked terrible, but it was the oil ring in the end that was the issue, although the top of the cylinder was oblong, and the head gasket really looked like it could have leaked (which it didn't). But I did have a mild cracked head, although it wasn't using coolant.

Another FT 3126 is having the same issues with oil loss  I had, and it seems to be #6. Number 6 in my terms is, the cylinder above the bell housing. It is actually # 6 in firing order

I can encourage you with this. I am all in love with my coach again, and I love my new motor. This pain for you is only temporary. When I look back, it seemed like the end of the world, now I barely remember it.

It also changed my attitude about our coach, and that is to not go overboard with it, just enjoy it for what it is. In the end, even with the cost of the new engine, you couldn't buy a coach as nice as what we have. Old, maybe a little old school, but quality unlike anything else, without a bunch of glitter and cheap electronics to go out. All the new coaches I see and work on, are just FT's on steroids, want-A-be's!

Lastly, ignore people when they say "Oh, those are throw away motors" Well they are not. And also remember, Cummings have there issues too.Cracked heads and blocks.
Keep us posted.
Chris
Chris and Tammy White  CDA Idaho
Previous owners 1997 U295 36' 3126 Cat 300 HP Build # 4998
Former Foretravel tech & RVIA certified tech
Former owner Custom Satellite home/RV satellites 
Former owner Vans LTD  van conversions
Unemployed, panhandler, drag racer NHRA #6348

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #2
Ah the drive is so good the problems fade away do they not?
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob & Susan
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #3
Ah the drive is so good the problems fade away do they not?
Yup, and thanks for helping get my head straight Bob
Chris and Tammy White  CDA Idaho
Previous owners 1997 U295 36' 3126 Cat 300 HP Build # 4998
Former Foretravel tech & RVIA certified tech
Former owner Custom Satellite home/RV satellites 
Former owner Vans LTD  van conversions
Unemployed, panhandler, drag racer NHRA #6348

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #4
Happy to help.  I have had quite a few agitated customers across my desk with issues.

I helped them "get their mind  right," 

The results are/worth the work.

Unless you want to drive a car and eat out and hotel it?
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob & Susan
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

SPLIT: "Cat 3126B Venting White Smoke, Consuming Oil"Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #5
One or more of the messages of this topic have been moved to Foretravel Tech Talk

http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=35659.0
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #6
Holt CAT called this PM to say they had the engine out and were proceeding to move external parts over to the new engine after evaluating them.  Interestingly, they elected to pull the engine out from underneath but I wonder if that was simply their mindset from the beginning rather than necessity.

So far the have recommended replacing the turbo and the alternator which they claim broke during disassembly (???).

I'm headed up there Monday to have a look in the open compartment for any hoses that are rubbing to create potential failures down the road.  Also will review recommended replacement parts for OK and go from there.

I'm not sure if they will bother to tear the old engine down any further than the already have to find actual source of leak.
Regards

1997 U295 40 with CAT 3126

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #7
Holt CAT called this PM to say they had the engine out and were proceeding to move external parts over to the new engine after evaluating them.  Interestingly, they elected to pull the engine out from underneath but I wonder if that was simply their mindset from the beginning rather than necessity.

So far the have recommended replacing the turbo and the alternator which they claim broke during disassembly (???).

I'm headed up there Monday to have a look in the open compartment for any hoses that are rubbing to create potential failures down the road.  Also will review recommended replacement parts for OK and go from there.

I'm not sure if they will bother to tear the old engine down any further than the already have to find actual source of leak.

I would imagine they chose to go out the bottom, because other wise the pan and oil pump will not clear the rear cross member coming out. If one has a hoist that can handle that, it would be another way to go. It was no big deal with mine, to install them once the engine was in.

I am sure they will, but I would replace all the radiator hose's. The numbers are in your manual, I found mine easy. Some are hose's that have to be cut into two parts to work in different places.

I chose not to replace the heater hose's all the way to the front, but right at the lower back of the engine the split off with T's, so I just replaced them to there. I also double clamped all the larger hoses.

And yes, I would rebuild or replace the turbo. They are $1600.00 exchange from Cat.Mine is a Borg Warner reman, it was $1000.00

If you don't have transynd oil in the tranny, now is the time for that too.

Your going to love your fresh engine.
Chris
Chris and Tammy White  CDA Idaho
Previous owners 1997 U295 36' 3126 Cat 300 HP Build # 4998
Former Foretravel tech & RVIA certified tech
Former owner Custom Satellite home/RV satellites 
Former owner Vans LTD  van conversions
Unemployed, panhandler, drag racer NHRA #6348

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #8
Chris,

I had already requested the replacement of hoses and belts -- did not know that these were listed in the manual but will check when I get there Monday.

The coach tranny had already been converted to Transynd which I replaced 3 years ago when I bought the unit.  This may be another replacement since they were talking about pulling the tranny with the engine.
Regards

1997 U295 40 with CAT 3126

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #9
Chris,

I had already requested the replacement of hoses and belts -- did not know that these were listed in the manual but will check when I get there Monday.

The coach tranny had already been converted to Transynd which I replaced 3 years ago when I bought the unit.  This may be another replacement since they were talking about pulling the tranny with the engine.

Bill
I was thinking about it. If they broke your Turbo, Cat won't take it as a core. Plan on another $600.00- $700.00 for that. When I thought mine was bad, they wouldn't take my Borg Warner rebuild as a core. They want a genuine Cat turbo core.My friend who works in the parts department, also warned me about some people cutting the bolts on the turbo with a torch and damaging the housing.That is a no, no too.

As far as your old engine goes, you will probably find out what was wrong with it, when the core charge comes into play. They ding you for anything broken or cracked in the block or head.

Not trying to bum you out, just preparing you for the worse. It was all a surprise to be.

Let me know if you need any help with the hoses.It is a bit confusing, because as I said, FT took one hose, cut it, and used it in 2 different places on the engine.They need to keep you old ones, so they can cut the new one's to match.Some of the new ones didn't come with a spring in them. I used the spring from the old ones. The info is in the service area of the manual. I can scan it for you, and email it, if you have any trouble.

As I said, in the end it will be all behind you soon, and you'll be driving your coach with a smile again.

Chris
Chris and Tammy White  CDA Idaho
Previous owners 1997 U295 36' 3126 Cat 300 HP Build # 4998
Former Foretravel tech & RVIA certified tech
Former owner Custom Satellite home/RV satellites 
Former owner Vans LTD  van conversions
Unemployed, panhandler, drag racer NHRA #6348

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #10
Not sure how a turbo and alternator can break during disassembly,sounds more like they broke them.There is no Cat brand turbo
may be a Garret.Have replaced many turbos in the field and if you take the time it's easy.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #11
Not sure how a turbo and alternator can break during disassembly,sounds more like they broke them.There is no Cat brand turbo
may be a Garret.Have replaced many turbos in the field and if you take the time it's easy.

I agree about breaking them. By dropping the motor through the bottom, I can see breaking it and the alternator, if they didn't take them off the engine.I can visualize breaking the post's on the alternator too, not backing the nuts when removing. Just theory.
My Borg Warner looks different then the Cat one. Also, the cat one say's "Cat" on it.
Chris
Chris and Tammy White  CDA Idaho
Previous owners 1997 U295 36' 3126 Cat 300 HP Build # 4998
Former Foretravel tech & RVIA certified tech
Former owner Custom Satellite home/RV satellites 
Former owner Vans LTD  van conversions
Unemployed, panhandler, drag racer NHRA #6348

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #12
Thanks for pointing out the existence of the hose data in the user manual. 

I went up yesterday to find the manual and review what they recommend replacing.  The parts guy said that the manual info would be big help in finding the hoses.

The turbo was not broken on disassembly, it is simply well-used and they recommended replacing, with which I agreed.  I can't see any sense putting in a rebuilt engine and sticking generally beat up components back on it.

The alternator posts stripped from corrosion when they removed it.  They are sending it out to an alternator shop to see if the posts can be replaced.

Like most OEMs CAT has a lot of parts that they don't make, but get from suppliers and rebrand.  A CAT service center isn't going to go out and look for an alternative turbo when they can take one off the shelf from CAT. 

They have also recommended replacing the injectors which, again, makes sense to me given the condition of the oil that was likely pushed  through them.  This includes new solenoids and huei (?) pump.  I asked them about injector sensors which I thought I remembered from Chris' earlier post and they didn't understand what I was talking about.

The good news is that they don't see any additional core charges.  The mechanic working on the job said the engine still turns over fine which is the basic requirement.

That said, this is getting expensive.  In addition to the long block the recommended parts replacements and labor are going to run pretty close to another $20k.

However, in retrospect I think it better than the alternative.  Sitting around in a hotel (which I have to evacuate with the dog and valuables every morning) and paying boarding bills for the cat while paying repair shop labor rates would likely have cost me more and given me a lot more aggravation.  Also, I think that slapping a couple of parts in to correct an immediate situation just leads to another failure down the road in a less desirable situation.
Regards

1997 U295 40 with CAT 3126

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #13
Thanks for pointing out the existence of the hose data in the user manual. 

I went up yesterday to find the manual and review what they recommend replacing.  The parts guy said that the manual info would be big help in finding the hoses.

The turbo was not broken on disassembly, it is simply well-used and they recommended replacing, with which I agreed.  I can't see any sense putting in a rebuilt engine and sticking generally beat up components back on it.

The alternator posts stripped from corrosion when they removed it.  They are sending it out to an alternator shop to see if the posts can be replaced.

Like most OEMs CAT has a lot of parts that they don't make, but get from suppliers and rebrand.  A CAT service center isn't going to go out and look for an alternative turbo when they can take one off the shelf from CAT. 

They have also recommended replacing the injectors which, again, makes sense to me given the condition of the oil that was likely pushed  through them.  This includes new solenoids and huei (?) pump.  I asked them about injector sensors which I thought I remembered from Chris' earlier post and they didn't understand what I was talking about.

The good news is that they don't see any additional core charges.  The mechanic working on the job said the engine still turns over fine which is the basic requirement.

That said, this is getting expensive.  In addition to the long block the recommended parts replacements and labor are going to run pretty close to another $20k.

However, in retrospect I think it better than the alternative.  Sitting around in a hotel (which I have to evacuate with the dog and valuables every morning) and paying boarding bills for the cat while paying repair shop labor rates would likely have cost me more and given me a lot more aggravation.  Also, I think that slapping a couple of parts in to correct an immediate situation just leads to another failure down the road in a less desirable situation.

Good news
The reman injectors are a great idea. The rest makes honest sense.
I wasn't saying get a aftermarket turbo, I was actually saying get a Cat reman. I made the mistake getting a aftermarket.
The genuine Cat one should be $1500.00 exchange.As long as your core is good.
The injector sensor is this:
122-5053 1225053 FITS FOR Cat 3126 3126B IPR Valve Injector Pressure...

That one is a crappy import. A Cat one is $250.00

It controls the 2,000 lb oil pressure to the injectors, which in turn injects the fuel.

I am sure they are replacing it, especially if your replacing the HUEI pump.

I would be curious what weight oil they recommend when done.Please let me know
Hang tuff, your almost there
Chris
Chris and Tammy White  CDA Idaho
Previous owners 1997 U295 36' 3126 Cat 300 HP Build # 4998
Former Foretravel tech & RVIA certified tech
Former owner Custom Satellite home/RV satellites 
Former owner Vans LTD  van conversions
Unemployed, panhandler, drag racer NHRA #6348

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #14
Get a price on the alternator repair,if it's the original get a Delco Remy repalacement,much better then the Leece Neville,had my
LN rebuilt but it did not last,the new Delco was cheaper then the repair.
96 U270 BUILD 4810
85 380SL
Drummonds TN.

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #15
Most alternators overcharge our use batteries. The large heat sinks of the oem and the adjustable voltage may be why Foretravel used them?  The output needs to be 1/5th the battery bank capacity to charge most batteries correctly to avoid sulfation of the plates and loss of capacity IMO.

As Brett posted here I turned down my LN to 13.6 volts at the battery. 
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob & Susan
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #16
Chris,
The service writer showed me what they've planned for the oil fill -- Mobil 15w-40.  I asked him about a thread here that suggested CAT recommended something lighter and his response was "the 15w-40 is CAT's recommendation".

My bandaid comment wasn't referring to the turbo, but to earlier posts about just fixing a water pump or oil cooler, cleaning things up and going on.  I think that only full-timers can appreciate the fallacy of those kind of comments.  It's one thing to have an engine lock up or crap out again when you can throw your pets and valuable in the car and go home.  Quite different when you have to find a motel that will accept you and pets (as an aside it is costing more for the dog surcharge and the cat boarding than it is for me) and live with it a second time because of going cheap the first time.

John,

I thought about just getting a Delco replacement.  However, in searching the forum here it seems that there is a good bit of confusion.  One topic cited a Delco replacement that didn't work until the provider called FT and was told that the Delcos need to have a higher voltage. I didn't understand that, but I just didn't want to have to debug that through second and third parties in the middle of everything else.
Regards

1997 U295 40 with CAT 3126

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #17
Chris,
The service writer showed me what they've planned for the oil fill -- Mobil 15w-40.  I asked him about a thread here that suggested CAT recommended something lighter and his response was "the 15w-40 is CAT's recommendation".

My bandaid comment wasn't referring to the turbo, but to earlier posts about just fixing a water pump or oil cooler, cleaning things up and going on.  I think that only full-timers can appreciate the fallacy of those kind of comments.  It's one thing to have an engine lock up or crap out again when you can throw your pets and valuable in the car and go home.  Quite different when you have to find a motel that will accept you and pets (as an aside it is costing more for the dog surcharge and the cat boarding than it is for me) and live with it a second time because of going cheap the first time.



John,

I thought about just getting a Delco replacement.  However, in searching the forum here it seems that there is a good bit of confusion.  One topic cited a Delco replacement that didn't work until the provider called FT and was told that the Delcos need to have a higher voltage. I didn't understand that, but I just didn't want to have to debug that through second and third parties in the middle of everything else.

I personally gave up on the oil debate with everyone, So I would go with what they say.
For me, I decided to take the mid road. 10/30, because of the Northwest and a new engine (break in), then when spring comes,one third 15/40 two thirds 10/30.

Here is my logic:
Mechanic: "What is a HEUI pump?" I said a hydraulic pump. Mechanic: "What do you put in a hydraulic pump?" Me; Hydraulic oil. Mechanic "What weight is hydraulic oil?" Me 10 weight or less.

Personally, with a new engine, and cooler weather, 10/30 makes more sense. But in your case, they are warranting the engine.

Here is the Cat recommendations from their book:

https://www.allmand.com/content/dam/allmand/na/en_us/files/support/CAT_Diesel_Engine_Fluid_Specifications.pdf

Read page 19

Zero to 104 degree's. 10/30
5 degree's to 122 degree's 15/40

The reason is in a Cat, the thicker the oil, the more of an issue you can have with carbon behind the rings (read broken rings)
Also, because of the HEUI system, (oil making injector pressure via a hydraulic pump), the more the issue with clogging the pump and injectors. This is what causes the Injection pressure regulator to have issues.Which I had
I'll just leave that right there.

Cat oil, is made by Mobile. It's Devac
Your making great decisions.
You'll be on the road soon with a smile.
Chris
Chris and Tammy White  CDA Idaho
Previous owners 1997 U295 36' 3126 Cat 300 HP Build # 4998
Former Foretravel tech & RVIA certified tech
Former owner Custom Satellite home/RV satellites 
Former owner Vans LTD  van conversions
Unemployed, panhandler, drag racer NHRA #6348

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #18
Today's update:

Called to check on progress.  They have all the hoses for the engine compartment (nothing back to the front-end heater, which is fine) and the engine has been reinstalled (service writer wasn't sure about the tranny).  The alternator shop was able to replace the corroded posts so the original will go back in "as is" and I'll deal with replacement later.

Looks like they'll finish up tomorrow or Monday and then take it for a test run to ensure it doesn't blow up  :D or have more minor problems.
Regards

1997 U295 40 with CAT 3126

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #19
Got a bit of scare with call from the service writer mid-morning Friday to ask where the main fuses are.  Seems when they tried to turn over the engine they got no juice to the dash, engine and other things.  I directed them to the areas that I knew.

When I called back late in the day to see how they fared the service writer told me that the run solenoid had stuck but was freed up with a tap.  He suggested replacing it to which I readily agreed.  After researching here and several websites I'll probably call back Monday to remind the parts guy that the replacement needs to be a continuous duty solenoid and at least comparable or greater amp rating.
Regards

1997 U295 40 with CAT 3126

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #20
Got a bit of scare with call from the service writer mid-morning Friday to ask where the main fuses are.  Seems when they tried to turn over the engine they got no juice to the dash, engine and other things.  I directed them to the areas that I knew.

When I called back late in the day to see how they fared the service writer told me that the run solenoid had stuck but was freed up with a tap.  He suggested replacing it to which I readily agreed.  After researching here and several websites I'll probably call back Monday to remind the parts guy that the replacement needs to be a continuous duty solenoid and at least comparable or greater amp rating.
Also, Cat wire differently then a Cummings in a FT. Took me a bit to figure it out. There is an addition on the wiring diagram. Took me a few to figure it out
Chris
Chris and Tammy White  CDA Idaho
Previous owners 1997 U295 36' 3126 Cat 300 HP Build # 4998
Former Foretravel tech & RVIA certified tech
Former owner Custom Satellite home/RV satellites 
Former owner Vans LTD  van conversions
Unemployed, panhandler, drag racer NHRA #6348

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #21
I finally got the coach back, along with a bit of a financial shock and a huge disappointment with CAT.  The total bill for replacing the engine was ~$28,000.  In addition, it cost me another $2K for hotel and pet boarding.

For that amount of money I also expected some kind of decent warranty.  Instead, the CAT warranty is a single year for parts only.

They did note that the fault with the engine was a crack in the No. 6 cylinder, but not enough to generate a core charge.

I had planned to run the coach around the area for a while and spend the night at a local campground.  However, some impending bad weather (ice storm) forced a change in plans so I drove further south about 60 miles.  Things seemed to run well enough, but not much different than before this incident so I can't say I see any dramatic improvement.
Regards

1997 U295 40 with CAT 3126

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #22
Well,hopefully it's behind you. Hope this warranty is good at ANY Cat dealer. Pretty slim warranty I must say for that kind of dough.Certainly doesn't leave you warm and fuzzy, and secure by any means.
Cheers Chris
Chris and Tammy White  CDA Idaho
Previous owners 1997 U295 36' 3126 Cat 300 HP Build # 4998
Former Foretravel tech & RVIA certified tech
Former owner Custom Satellite home/RV satellites 
Former owner Vans LTD  van conversions
Unemployed, panhandler, drag racer NHRA #6348

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #23
My thoughts on that piece of paper (cannot call it a warranty by any stretch of my imagination) is an insult after that amount of time and cost. Not a good  advert for Cat  I would think. Maybe Brett can give you someone up the ladder to complain too?  Sounds like a "back yard " operation more than a big company they are.
Just my 2 cents.
JohnH
Coachless, now use aircraft.
1994 Ford E350 ClassC,total renovation inside and out. Now sold.
2000 U295  36' Cummins 350 c/w Banks Stinger, Resonator upgrade,Solar, LED lites.Residential fridge with slide out pantry. Build 5674. Sold
ex 92 GV 022C ored Cummins. Sold
ex 95 GV240 cat 3116. Sold
2017 Mini cooper s & 2016 land Rover LR2 HSE  LUX.
jhaygarth@aol.com    SKP #130098
treat everyone as you would like to be.

Re: CAT 3126 Coolant in Oil: Followup

Reply #24
I know when I was considering a new (reman) Cat engine, the warranty was 1 year, don't remember the miles. But they were more then I could drive in a year.
But I was under the impression it covered labor too if done by a Cat shop.This is beyond me that the labor is not covered.
Chris
Chris and Tammy White  CDA Idaho
Previous owners 1997 U295 36' 3126 Cat 300 HP Build # 4998
Former Foretravel tech & RVIA certified tech
Former owner Custom Satellite home/RV satellites 
Former owner Vans LTD  van conversions
Unemployed, panhandler, drag racer NHRA #6348