Skip to main content
Topic: What am I looking at (Read 1331 times) previous topic - next topic

What am I looking at

Started the Amsolar install today by mounting 5 panels. During the planning for mounting the Victron charger this caught my attention and I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking at. Can someone please educate me and can the charger be mounted in close proximity?
Greg
Greg & Sandy
2001 U270
Build # 5803
Eagle, Idaho

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #1
It is a small air compressor. What year and model coach?  That size compressor was generally used prior to 2002.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #2
2001 U270
Seems like a lot of wasted space for a small compressor. Maybe I can make use of the space with the Victron charger.
Greg & Sandy
2001 U270
Build # 5803
Eagle, Idaho

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #3
That compressor supplies pressurized air to maintain coach level when you are parked.  If you have a slide it provides air for inflating and deflating the bladder.

Best place for an inverter/charger is close to the batteries but generally not in the same space.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #4
Unless you have a sealed inverter/charger like specific outback units normal inverters cannot be in a space with the batteries.

Except for sealed units normal inverters are not non spark made or certified.  Boom.

From the late 2018 Victron manual

"Never use the product at sites where gas or dust explosions could occur."

Does not explain that the unit can spark

Magnum manuals warning


WARNING: The MS Series inverter/charger is not ignition-protected. Do not install this inverter in any area that contains extremely flammable liquids like gasoline or propane.
Close to the battery bank – The inverter should be located as close to the batteries as possible. Long DC wires tend to lose efficiency and reduce the overall performance of an inverter. However, the unit should not be installed in the same compartment as the batteries or mounted where it will be exposed to gases produced by the batteries. These gases are corrosive and will damage the inverter; also, if these gases are not ventilated and allowed to collect, they could ignite and cause an explosion.
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob & Susan
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #5
Yes, in adjacent/close proximity to the batteries, not in the same compartment.
Brett Wolfe
EX: 1993 U240
Moderator, ForeForum 2001-
Moderator Diesel RV Club 2002-
Moderator, FMCA Forum 2009-2020
Chairman FMCA Technical Advisory Committee 2011-2020

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #6
Thanks Gentlemen
AMSolar recommended I use my existing ProSine inverter and supplied me with a Victron 150/85 MPPT charge controller and battery monitor. The adventure begins
Greg & Sandy
2001 U270
Build # 5803
Eagle, Idaho


Re: What am I looking at

Reply #8
Prosine is not fixable as far as I remember.  No parts
"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob & Susan
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #9
Thanks Gentlemen
AMSolar recommended I use my existing ProSine inverter...
Since AM Solar is a authorized reseller/installer of Victron and Magnum inverter/chargers (two highly regarded brands), I find it odd that they would recommend sticking with your old unit.  Unless, of course, you are on a very tight budget.  Whatever the reason, I believe every Forum member who has been down this road would advise you to upgrade to a modern pure sine inverter with a smart, programmable battery charger.  You will not be sorry, and it will be money well spent.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"It goes without saying..."

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #10
Not sure why AmSolar did not recommend, however budget is not a factor and I have no objection to replacing the Prosine (except more to learn). I assume I would no longer need the Victron charger but exchange it for the charger/inverter.
Greg & Sandy
2001 U270
Build # 5803
Eagle, Idaho

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #11
Without knowing the specifics of your installation, it is hard to say what is best.  Although I am sure the Victron charger is a quality piece of hardware, it would also be redundant alongside a modern inverter/charger.  Lots of factors to consider when adding solar to a coach, and at the same time upgrading the OEM equipment.  AM Solar is well qualified to help you make any decisions about how to best outfit your coach, where to mount equipment, and what other upgrades would best suit your needs.

Ask them about trading in the Victron charger.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"It goes without saying..."

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #12
When my old Prosine quit I took it to a service shop where they told me it wasn't repairable and was basically a throw-away.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #13
I have no objection to replacing the Prosine (except more to learn).
I would not worry about having more to learn.  Any equipment installed at AM Solar will be properly programmed before you drive away.  When we had our installation done, they asked us to stay overnight in their parking lot (behind the building) so we could "use" the new system and make sure it was all working to our satisfaction.  The programs they entered into our equipment have functioned perfectly for 4 years.  We have never changed a thing!  The books you get with your new equipment are very comprehensive, in case you DO need to change something.  AM Solar is good about answering their phone, in case you ever need tech help or have a question.

Here is a thread about our "vacation" at AM Solar.  They DID tell you about the 30% solar tax credit, right?

PV System, Installation, at AM Solar
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"It goes without saying..."

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #14
Chuck
They did inform me about the tax credit.
Unfortunately I do have a lot to learn sense I'm tackling the install myself ;) . This morning I asked about replacing the Prosine inverter and waiting for their reply. I must say, they have been very helpful at this point.
Greg
Greg & Sandy
2001 U270
Build # 5803
Eagle, Idaho

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #15
Greg,

Doing it yourself - you are a braver man than I, and I salute you!  ^.^d

We have a number of Forum members who have installed fresh electrical and solar systems by themselves.  These range from very basic, to very sophisticated and complicated.  They LOVE to talk about their installs, and can be EXTREMELY knowledgeable about the many different aspects.  If you have ANY questions as you go along with your project, you can always try asking here.  Start a separate (new) thread with each question.  This helps keep the responses more on topic.  I assure you many varied opinions/options will result.  Up to you to sift the wheat from the chaff.
1993 U280 SE 40' WTBI, Build: 4359
C8.3 300hp, 6-Speed, Exhaust Brake
960 watts on the roof (6 x 160)
Sorento (or BOLT) on a Kar Kaddy SS
"It goes without saying..."

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #16
Greg, many of us have done this ourselves.
A Second House Battery Bank, Solar Panels, 2 New Inverters
Please feel free to send me a message, email or call if I can help.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #17
If you are considering upgrading your inverter the two mentioned units will work well.

The Victron is 2,400 watts continuous ar 77 degrees and the Magnum 2812 is 3,000 watts.

50 amp pass through versus 60 amp pass through.

Victron is certified to international standards while the Magnum is UL listed.

Magnum with its optional auto gen start box can auto start the gen based on temps.

It's auto start box includes a 60' temp probe wire or it can be made to use some of the temp sensors in the heat and air existing system. 

The Magnums auto gen start is capable of being triggered by the latest Dometic Climate Control Control with the ten button panel on it

You probably would need new control boards in the roof airs to go along with the CCC panel to do this.

The updated units auto,switch between heat and cold modes and auto control some fan speeds mode.

Magnum is made in the USA and phone help is available and unlike your current Prosine unit parts and service are readily available.

Magnum is about the same amount more expensive as it's increased output. 

The temp controlled auto gen start can make your coach basically a fully automatic temp controlled residence.

I am seeing limited service for the Victron here in the USA. 

Maybe am solar can provide service info for the future?

I have seen the Magnums apart and they use stainless fasteners inside and their boards are sealed.

No info on the Victron on their web info about that.

If you want to install an inverter where fumes can be present a sealed outback inverter is available.

More of a residential type off grid unit although.

Would highly recommend a blue sea auto battery  bank combiner instead of the isolator.

The combiner install is easier on Foretravels as my guru mentioned the starter relay in our coach is where the isolator was installed which allows the combiners start sense wire to be connected easier.

The auto combiner disconnects the combined batteries if connected when it senses the engines starter is engaged.

Otherwise the combined batteries can cover up weak engine start batteries potentially leaving you stranded.

New tech is available and increases reliability and safety.

Foretravel up to 2017 IH 45 still uses welding cable to  connect its batteries.

My guru buddy uses marine tinned fire retardant UL 1427 cabling.  It's pvc coating does not drip or run off if burned.

It forms a hard crust and stays on the wire.

Burning std cabling generates  harmful fumes.  No harmful with the marine cabling.



"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob & Susan
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #18

I am seeing limited service for the Victron here in the USA. 


Maybe it is because we ( the ones that have the units have not had any issues to warrant a call)? Not sure how you qualify this statement. You dont own one or anything Victron.. As much as you are able to quote the Magnum.. Might be nice to compare apples to apples by reading the product info on the components of Victron and doing a side by side comparison and not use innuendo to talk it down.

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #19
Well, Once again CaFlashBob is just not correct here, using misinformation to support his well established bias.

Read and understand the user manuals and specifications for both if you want to know the facts.
Inverter Replacement

The Magnum MS2812 is rated at 2800 VA.  120V AC +/- 5%  60 Hz +/- 0.1%. 
  It costs about $1984 plus $183 for the basic control panel.  To mount it on a wall with the DC connections down you need an MMP250-30D panel for $580 more.  You can mount it horizontally without the panel. About $0.76 per VA for the MS2912 and control panel because CaFlashBob thinks it is significant.
 
  Its peak power output appears to be 3900 watts
  It charges at a maximum of 125 amps using 18 amps AC. 
  Its inverter uses 30 watts of power to be on with no load.
  Its inverter efficiency peaks at 90%
  Its charger efficiency is 85% with a power factor of 0.95
  It has a three year warranty.

The Victron Multiplus 3000VA is rated at 3000 VA.  120V AC +/- 0.2%  60 Hz +/- 0.01%. 
  It costs about $1430 plus $130 for a basic control panel. it is smaller and lighter then the Magnum and can be mounted on a wall with the DC terminals down out of the box.  $0.52 per VA if that makes any sense.
 
  Its peak power output is 6000 watts
  It charges at a maximum rate of 120 amp.
  Its inverter uses 20 watts of power to be on with no load.
  Its inverter efficiency peaks at 93%
  Its charger efficiency is > 85% based on a power factor of 1.
  It has a five year warranty.

VA is the controlling specification for transformers and power delivery equipment including inverters. The inverter manufacturers can only try to estimate how many watts you'll be able to deliver as a convenience but not as an absolute number because they do not know what you will connect to them.

The actual amount of power (watts) that devices use depends on their power factor for the device which is a measure of how efficiently they use sine wave power coming to them. The watts available from an inverter depend on what you connect to them.  An inverter with a higher VA rating can deliver more watts to the same appliance then one with a lower VA rating. That is a fact.

Converting VA to Watts

Neither the Magnum or the Victron inverter/chargers mentioned  will perform to their maximum performance if they are not wired with properly sized cables.  It may well be a safety issue with either to not wire them as specified.

Pass through power will never exceed the incoming AC power to your inverter.  The Victron will pass through 50 amps and add up to an additional 14 amps from the inverter.  The Magnum MS2812 specs say it will pass through 60 amps.  Without significant changes to your circuit breakers and more importantly to the AC wiring to and from the inverter neither will do any more than the 20 amps that your Prosine is wired for now in the 2001 coach in question.

As best I can tell from the Magnum website there are about 25 RV service centers in 17 states.
Victron's website has 61 dealers who can service their products in 20 states.

Either one of these systems and others from companies like Sterling and Xantrex will all do what you want them to do.  All have different specifications, performance ratings, costs and warranties.  Do your own homework and decide for yourself. Learn all you can and understand it as best you can.  When you do you can make more informed decisions for yourself.  Sometimes the loud and outrageous rants are hard to ignore but consider the source and their obvious (sometimes absurd and unfounded) biases.


Re: What am I looking at

Reply #20
Maybe it is because we ( the ones that have the units have not had any issues to warrant a call)? Not sure how you qualify this statement. You dont own one or anything Victron.. As much as you are able to quote the Magnum.. Might be nice to compare apples to apples by reading the product info on the components of Victron and doing a side by side comparison and not use innuendo to talk it down.


Might be nice if the editor left a message or a note of why? Maybe my spelling was off? Used the wrong word? Sometime the french version of the spelling is a little different but I think we all get the point. Not sure as it was like a ninja correction.. just wondering so I can watch my math next time..

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #21
As we travel with pets I wanted auto gen start from temp input.  Hot or cold.  If the thermostat calls for heat or cold I want the gen to be auto on if needed.

Requires a board change and the ten button CCC.

Not much room to mount the physically bigger, heavier magnum vertically.

Foretravel mounted them sideways and used a cooling fan to stretch the inverters temp limits versus derate the power.

Not seen a magnum in a rv use the mounting plate.  Can be mounted sideways or vertically.

Foretravel switched to outback's. 

The heat set to aqua hot diesel can come on without the gen start needed as its 12 volt. Until the  voltage drops to the gen start set point.

So a solar system may heat the coach without the gen needed. Unless it gets cloudy.

If you left the 110 volt aqua hot switch on then while the gen is running you are automatically adding the 110 volt input into the heating system. 

For sure I have a local ,known to me,  place to have my inverter repaired when not if it needs it.

The Magnum power trace 100 integrated solar controller is capable of residential 240  volt input using the higher efficiency 22% plus smaller panels. 100 amps.  6600 watts. 

Made here.  Not in India. 

Wanted the built in lifeline battery profile.  Wanted the unit to be capable of correctly equalizing Lifelines.

Wanted the dual coach thermostats to be able to auto start the gen for ac or heat.

The rear bedroom heaters panel mounted temp sensor for sure with the thermostat change and board changes can trigger the heat or air systems and add the gen if needed.

Probably can be wired to zone 2 on the aqua hot to trigger the auto gen start if the basement thermostat calls for heat.

Coach could be left plugged in and regardless of failures not freeze the coach or overheat the insides.

Had a bus long ago skiing in mammoth blow a complete circuit in the park causing the parks owner to have to reset breakers not accessible to the rv'ers.

Almost froze the coach as we were skiing all day.

The auto,system would have come on in various ways to prevent damage.

Was not available then.  It is now.  New coaches set this way. 

The combiner would keep up both battery banks automatically also from shore power,solar or gen run.

The AGN-N has a separate 60' temp lead. I suppose you could run it to anything you might want to trigger the gen to start.  Hot or cold.  Could be external from  the coach.  Another rv?  A home?

It's not whether you want or need this but the idea you could if you or the next owner could




"Riding and rejoicing"
Bob & Susan
1997 U320 40' Mid entry, build 5132,  wtbi ce27, 4th owner
2007 Solara convertible
2 prodeco tech outlaw ss electric bikes

1095 watts solar
08 Ls 460 and a sc430
2000 Ford F-250 superduty 4x4

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #22
I am not surprised to see such brand preferences.  I was told by rv mfg in Oregon that when Trace sold the same people had a 5 yr non compete clause and started Xantrex, same folks sold Xantrex sold Xantrex w/ 5yr clause and then started Magnum, each time taking previous rv mfgs with their newest company.  I've always had Xantrex w/ no problems, thus my preference and last purchase was a Xantrex with separate panel for gen start which I've never needed, thus never installed.

Best advice from a tech regarding inverter/chargers:  When inverter seems to break, remove DC cables for 5 min, this will reset some issues and problem equipment might work again.  Learned this when a rv I sold was diagnosed at pre check with bad inverter/charger.  The rv went to another tech for replacement, he did the above, removed both DC cables for 5 min and the unit did not have to be replaced, $2,000 + saved!  This fault usually occured from low voltage, but not necessarily so.

The above conflicts of opinion on brand for me just fall under my concept that half of what you are told is not true, including from me, because it is based on their experience and this may not be yours.

Do your research, make your choices based on this and your particular needs.  It is your money, not theirs, or mine.

Choose your "experts" for information carefully, for you that will work best, and still do your own research.

For me now, my technician "expert", Google, YouTube, reviewer's reviews, internet posts, including those from forum members, retailers I trust such as AMSolar in Eugene Oregon, Bay Marine in San Diego, Northwest RV Supply in Eugene Oregon,  RV Service Tips - Carrier RV Service - Eugene, Oregon , are my guide.  All these various ways to research have worked best for me, steering me away from products with known issues.

As this forum does best for me now, 75 % of my research is done here, and with the forum search button.  Personnel messages here have saved my butt more than once, and many dollars.

Do not tune out all those that ramble, as often those ramblings come from much valuable experience.  Us forum members mostly come from different backgrounds, only a few may have been actual journeyman rv techs, or tool and die makers.  Always be kind.
97 U295 40, Build #5040, 6C8.3 325 HP
Oregon Continuous Traveler
Samsung Residential #RF20HFENBSR,
Xantrex SW2012, (3)AGM8D Hse, (2)AGM Grp24 Eng, Victron BMV-712, 1800w Solar 4 LG & 2 Sunpower
Extreme Full Body Pt w/hdlmps, new furn/floor, 4 down Lexus 2004 GX470 AWD curb weight 4,740 lbs
Prev: 1990 Barth, 10L 300 2 yrs; 91&92 Monaco Signature, 10 yrs, 10L C 300 &  6C8.3 300; 1997 ForeT 6C8.3 325 since May 2017.  Employed by Guaranty RV 14+ yrs.  Former VW New Car Dlr/Service Dlr, Sales Mgr, Rv Sales, and Service Adviser from 1968-2017
"Don't criticize what you can't understand" Bob Dylan

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #23
Jack
Thanks for the comment and the reasonable, common sense approach. If only our senators and congressman could take your advice they may actually get something done.
Greg
Greg & Sandy
2001 U270
Build # 5803
Eagle, Idaho

Re: What am I looking at

Reply #24
To mount it on a wall with the DC connections down you need an MMP250-30D panel for $580 more.

That's not so Roger. 
According to my MS2812 manual you can also use a Magnum ME-CB enclosure that costs only $71.20.
Amazon.com: Magnum Energy ME-CB Conduit Box for AC/DC Wiring Fits on the...

Also, regarding prices you quoted;

Amazon.com: Magnum MS2812 2800W Inverter with 125 Amp Charger: Electronics

Amazon.com: Go Power! GP-MS2812-PKG 2800 Watt Pure Sine Wave Magnum Energy...