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Engine compartment fire suppression system

After my close call (see my post on cracked fuel line) I'm thinking about installing a foam based fire suppression system for my engine compartment.  I found these systems online:  Large Format Automatic Systems | Fire Fight Products

Does anyone have any experience with this vendor? 

I thought I would just give "Mac the fire guy" a call, but I see he has retired.  Are there other vendors to consider?

Thanks in advance.
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George Hatfield

  Never ever use World Line Motors of Nacogdoches for service!

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #1
That is the Vendor I Purchased it from, and spent nearly $1500.00, on An Engine/Transmission Combo Heads, a Behind the Refer with one Head, a Generator with one head!  All come with Flexible Wire Wrapped Hoses.  I also got 3 Small Extinguishers for the inside of the Coach, near the Drivers Seat, Kitchen and the Bedroom! He seems to be very helpful, as well! Good service!
Tom & Barb Root
'95, 40' U-320C SE, bought from Dave Head, 8/2017  FT Motorcade # 18196 Coach Build# 4663 October '94
2015 VW Golf Sportwagen, 1991 Suzuki Samurai, Off-Road Custom Build-Up, W/Toyota 22re mill, and a 2005 Chevy 2500HD, Duramax/Allison TOADS Will also pull a MacGregor 26X Powersailor 2001 Model, owned since new!

Retired SR Rocket Mechanic, FT Sales Associate @  FT of California, Escondido CA.!  and Retired USMC Gunnery Sergeant (Hence Retired Guns! ) Avionics Tech, on A6E Intruder & OV-10 Bronco Aircraft!  V/N Era Vet, and Desert Storm Participant.  Happily Retired now!

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #2
A Diesel engine fire suppression system should include an engine shutdown component. 
Steve DeLange
2005 U320T 40'
Pearland, Texas

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #3
While poking around the internet for other fire suppression systems I found that Foretravel is equipping their IH45 and Realm Coaches with the Fogmaker system.  Looks expensive, but effective.  Here are a couple of videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1a5Thk9Zd8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHe1to35ap0

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George Hatfield

  Never ever use World Line Motors of Nacogdoches for service!

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #4
Along with what Steve said I'll add that all air should be stopped from coming into the eng compartment. Which is pretty hard to do I think.
Richard & Betty Bark & Keiko our Golden Doodle
2003 U320T 3820 PBDS
Build # 6215
MC # 16926
2016 Chevrolet Colorado 4X4 diesel

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #5
Fire triangle = fuel + oxygen/air+ignition source. Eliminate any one of these variables so it doesn't happen. Can't absolutely eleminate fuel leaks and oxygen on a coach. My question therefore in the diesel engine compartment wouldn't very good the exhaust system blankets be a better defense, that seems to just leaves arcing electrical components such as the alternator?
Old Phart Phred, EIEIO
89 GV ored 36' #3405 300 hp cat 3208 ATAAC side radiator, mountain tamer exhaust brake

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #6
While Most Fire Suppression Products out there, are good, none are better at a reflash, nor complete Oxygen depletion, as AFFF Foam, products, IMHO! Having seen, first hand, aircraft fires a few times, as a First Responder, unfortunately in my time while actually working on Flight Lines, and seeing how that Foam works as it does, without residual effects, etc.! I know I trust it the most!  Even the new Halon replacements which do work for an initial fire, does not stick around to also protect from a reflash! We had Both Bottles near every Aircraft, when we launched, and used Halon, which put the fire down Immediately without hesitation, but without AFFF Foam would reflash as soon as it dissipated! With Heat still present in abundance, and full fuel tanks you don't want that condition.  So arguably even the replacement Halon products lack the effectiveness of AFFF Foam!  The public, for the Most part, do not even know about Foam, as it is expensive, and many are not ready to spend the extra money on it!  Let's just say, the Military and Aircraft Industry rely on it, almost exclusively, for a reason! Here is what is stated in that very First Link from the OP, above!

"Fire Fight Products offers a complete line of supplemental Foam automatic deploy as well as hand held units for the RV and automotive community.  Many times only available for professional, municipal and military application, the end consumer can now have access and benefit from this new hi-tech fire suppressant at a cost that will pleasantly surprise you".

"For use in open compartments such as motor and generator compartments as well as use in hand held extinguishers for dash, galley grease & BBQ grill fires, you now can have technology on your side. Starting at $25 for our aerosol foam hand held manual deploy container, you can safely fight fire.'

Those are NOT empty claims or gimmicks folks!  The truth is this stuff works! Demand AFFF for your best protection, available!
Tom & Barb Root
'95, 40' U-320C SE, bought from Dave Head, 8/2017  FT Motorcade # 18196 Coach Build# 4663 October '94
2015 VW Golf Sportwagen, 1991 Suzuki Samurai, Off-Road Custom Build-Up, W/Toyota 22re mill, and a 2005 Chevy 2500HD, Duramax/Allison TOADS Will also pull a MacGregor 26X Powersailor 2001 Model, owned since new!

Retired SR Rocket Mechanic, FT Sales Associate @  FT of California, Escondido CA.!  and Retired USMC Gunnery Sergeant (Hence Retired Guns! ) Avionics Tech, on A6E Intruder & OV-10 Bronco Aircraft!  V/N Era Vet, and Desert Storm Participant.  Happily Retired now!

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #7
Nascar uses  self contained systems. One in the trunk with a 250*+- release vale and under the hood .  They change them pretty often and can be had on ebay  for 100-200$ .

 King Racing Products Fire Bottle And Clamp Kit Heat Activated | eBay

Firefox 10 Lb Firebottle FE36 NASCAR | eBay
 These are FE36/ Halon replacement.? The Foam is better and thats what I use in the race cars.

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #8
Tom...  I hear what you are saying about the superiority of foam for suppressing diesel engine compartment fires, especially those that are open on the bottom as ours are.  My concern about Fire Fight Products and I have voiced this to the owner, is that there is no proof on their website that their products actually perform as advertised.  Even the foam they formulated is only described in the most general terms.  How does their formulation differ from those used by airport fire departments?  Even an endorsement from someone like "Mac the fire guy" would make me feel better about buying one of their systems. 

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George Hatfield

  Never ever use World Line Motors of Nacogdoches for service!

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #9
Tom has it right. AFFF is the only thing that really works. A fire can burn for quite a while in the engine compartment before the diesel engine quits or the operator realizes it. Any dry chemical or halon extinguisher will be long gone many times before the coach stops. Lining the compartment along with an alarm and actuator for the foam is the way to go.

Only relying on a small extinguisher in the fridge compartment is just false peace of mind as the fire may ignite rodent nests, wood, etc. The only reliable way to prevent the fire from spreading is to line the compartment with non combustible materials as I did as shown in previous posts.

Toad fires where a tire may be on fire are another place where a dry chemical might initially knock it down for a moment but it will flash back several times before the temperature drops.

Yours truly and Crash 81 and 82 in photos.

George, Protein foam was the first foam to be utilized by the fire service and with an inductor works OK, but the later AFFF works better and has a much longer storage life. Plus, AFFF does not have the terrible fish smell that protein foam has.

FireFighting Foam type AFFF 1% A , Aqueous Film Forming Foam

Six liter AFFF extinguisher: B254 6 Liter AFFF Foam Extinguisher | Fire Extinguisher Depot

Contact a fire extinguisher company in your town to purchase new or used extinguishers.

Pierce

Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #10
SBFD's first all female crew coming on duty at Airport Station 8 (Captain not in photo) at 8am plus Gaylie and Koda. Only three firefighters for the two crash rigs.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #11
Fire triangle = fuel + oxygen/air+ignition source. Eliminate any one of these variables so it doesn't happen. Can't absolutely eleminate fuel leaks and oxygen on a coach. My question therefore in the diesel engine compartment wouldn't very good the exhaust system blankets be a better defense, that seems to just leaves arcing electrical components such as the alternator?
Diesel is relatively hard to ignite. No risk from the alternator. Broken line spraying diesel or ATF on the exhaust manifold(s) is a good way for it to catch fire. Wrapping the turbo and pipe is a help.

One Foretravel owner lost his coach because the turbo clamp came off after a shop worked on it the day before. Hot exhaust went directly on the highly flammable insulation and by the time he noticed it in the mirror, they just had time to exit the coach before it was consumed by the fire.

Don't know about Cummins but Detroit fuel lines are inside of a wrap so any failure only results in diesel running down the line rather than spraying. All injector lines are internal so no risk here.

The OEM engine and generator compartment insulation is HIGHLY flammable as seen in one of my previous posts. It must be completely removed.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #12
Tom...  I hear what you are saying about the superiority of foam for suppressing diesel engine compartment fires, especially those that are open on the bottom as ours are.  My concern about Fire Fight Products and I have voiced this to the owner, is that there is no proof on their website that their products actually perform as advertised.  Even the foam they formulated is only described in the most general terms.  How does their formulation differ from those used by airport fire departments?  Even an endorsement from someone like "Mac the fire guy" would make me feel better about buying one of their systems. 


Well, we spent nearly an hour on the Phone, when I decided to order, as I too, had the very same concerns.  He is a Long Talker, like me! He assured, me it was "A Triple F Foam", just as I had used, same compound, same mix! ( Thanks for Clarifying my Miss labeling, Pierce! ; ) )  Anyway, I am pleased, for sure, and also as Pierce correctly Identified, I will have one of my Nasty CO2 Bottles in the Fridge compartment as well!  I just want to make sure that the real estate that occupies those extinguishers do not also block proper ventilation, also!
Tom & Barb Root
'95, 40' U-320C SE, bought from Dave Head, 8/2017  FT Motorcade # 18196 Coach Build# 4663 October '94
2015 VW Golf Sportwagen, 1991 Suzuki Samurai, Off-Road Custom Build-Up, W/Toyota 22re mill, and a 2005 Chevy 2500HD, Duramax/Allison TOADS Will also pull a MacGregor 26X Powersailor 2001 Model, owned since new!

Retired SR Rocket Mechanic, FT Sales Associate @  FT of California, Escondido CA.!  and Retired USMC Gunnery Sergeant (Hence Retired Guns! ) Avionics Tech, on A6E Intruder & OV-10 Bronco Aircraft!  V/N Era Vet, and Desert Storm Participant.  Happily Retired now!

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #13
Diesel is relatively hard to ignite. No risk from the alternator. Broken line spraying diesel or ATF on the exhaust manifold(s) is a good way for it to catch fire. Wrapping the turbo and pipe is a help.

One Foretravel owner lost his coach because the turbo clamp came off after a shop worked on it the day before. Hot exhaust went directly on the highly flammable insulation and by the time he noticed it in the mirror, they just had time to exit the coach before it was consumed by the fire.

Don't know about Cummins but Detroit fuel lines are inside of a wrap so any failure only results in diesel running down the line rather than spraying. All injector lines are internal so no risk here.

The OEM engine and generator compartment insulation is HIGHLY flammable as seen in one of my previous posts. It must be completely removed.

Pierce

Could you include a Link, as to what products you used!  I am removing that nasty insulation ASAP, as it is certainly failing in Both Compartments!  Did you upgrade the Sound Barrier properties, as well?  Thanks! YOU are THE professional here, I see!  BTW, we were just in Santa Barbara County, on Vandenburg AFB!  We Love it there as well, my Wife's family is from there, so we go for a few weeks at a time to visit, most years!
Tom & Barb Root
'95, 40' U-320C SE, bought from Dave Head, 8/2017  FT Motorcade # 18196 Coach Build# 4663 October '94
2015 VW Golf Sportwagen, 1991 Suzuki Samurai, Off-Road Custom Build-Up, W/Toyota 22re mill, and a 2005 Chevy 2500HD, Duramax/Allison TOADS Will also pull a MacGregor 26X Powersailor 2001 Model, owned since new!

Retired SR Rocket Mechanic, FT Sales Associate @  FT of California, Escondido CA.!  and Retired USMC Gunnery Sergeant (Hence Retired Guns! ) Avionics Tech, on A6E Intruder & OV-10 Bronco Aircraft!  V/N Era Vet, and Desert Storm Participant.  Happily Retired now!

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #14
SBFD's first all female crew coming on duty at Airport Station 8 (Captain not in photo) at 8am plus Gaylie and Koda. Only three firefighters for the two crash rigs.

Pierce
Sad that it is undermanned!  If I could, and they are Looking, I can let the word out to my Marine Buds!  A few that are Trained CFR's! There are so many Military Airfields in California to recruit from as well! 

Also, is that an Actual Wolf?  We support our Local Wolf Preserve in PA, and go and visit them from time to time!  Gorgeous and Majestic animals, for sure!
Tom & Barb Root
'95, 40' U-320C SE, bought from Dave Head, 8/2017  FT Motorcade # 18196 Coach Build# 4663 October '94
2015 VW Golf Sportwagen, 1991 Suzuki Samurai, Off-Road Custom Build-Up, W/Toyota 22re mill, and a 2005 Chevy 2500HD, Duramax/Allison TOADS Will also pull a MacGregor 26X Powersailor 2001 Model, owned since new!

Retired SR Rocket Mechanic, FT Sales Associate @  FT of California, Escondido CA.!  and Retired USMC Gunnery Sergeant (Hence Retired Guns! ) Avionics Tech, on A6E Intruder & OV-10 Bronco Aircraft!  V/N Era Vet, and Desert Storm Participant.  Happily Retired now!

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #15
Tom,

Quite a few other retired firefighters on the forum that know as much as I do. -
The Cummins installation is not as bad as the Detroit 2-cycle as their turbo is side mounted and has a lot more clearance between the turbo and the wooden platform the bed rests on.

In the photos below, I show how flammable the insulation is and how close the turbo is to it on U300s with Detroits. Once I had the insulation removed, I compressed R-19 Fiberglas to about one inch and covered it with Hardie Backerboard and used long stainless screws and washers to secure it. I painted it with a white latex so I could easily remove any grease that got on it. I did the sides also. It's a harder job than I thought as you have to lie on your stomach and then be a contortionist to get to all areas. Good videos on YouTube on the effectiveness of the Hardie board with a blowtorch, water test and a house with his siding that survived a brush fire.

So, the bed and bedroom are less noisy, cooler and better after you have parked for the night. The other item that needs addressing is the block heater outlet. Our plastic outlet box and plug had gotten really hot. If the block heater is replace with a higher wattage model, the load on the box is even higher. I would recommend a metal box with 20 amp plugs as they are much heavier duty. Spiral wrap on the fuel hoses make a diesel spray less likely.

Another item not though of as much are all the hydraulic lines with motor oil for the fans and ATF for the transmission. My failure to preflight carefully before a coast to coast trip resulted in a hose failure that sprayed 20-50 engine oil used for the fans all over the inside of the compartment. It has a lot of BTUs and could also catch fire. A quick look before a trip to make sure none are touching and well tied off so there is no possibility of chafing is a good idea. Old fire hose with the canvas cover and rubber liner make excellent covers where the hoses may come in contact.

I use dry chemical extinguishers plus a pressure water extinguisher inside the coach. Easy to add AFFF to a pressure water extinguisher. I'm retired now but as I remember, we used 3% AFFF and carried 5 gallon containers. It's pretty cheap. You can see different types of extinguisher and AFFF 5 gallon containers at this ebay site: afff foam | eBay You can see that even 6% AFFF is only $129 delivered.

The Hardie board can only work in the area it's installed in and after a fire has reached the engine door and the rest of the rear quarter, it's probably going to be too late for a owner to do much but wait for the fire truck.

So, I would recommend getting together with your local fire extinguisher service company as many business owners or employees are retired firefighters. They will be able to give you good advice and point you in the right direction.

We don't use our generator so have not done that compartment. The insulation is in terrible shape and badly needs attention.

As far a the fridge compartment goes, that was the first thing I did after buying the U300. The ammonia only has a very limited amount of hydrogen it produces but the earlier Foretravels used a thin wood to make the compartment and that together with dust bunnies, rodent residences, etc, make for a very combustible mix. The Hardie board was used to completely seal the compartment so the limited amount of hydrogen that is burning can't spread beyond the compatment. I even covered the opening to the roof.

Installing the Hardie board does not have to generate a lot of dust. I used a box cutter to scribe the board and then with it over the edge of a table, bent it until it broke at the line I had scribed. A rasp of some kind will clean up the edges. The electrical can also be cleaned up as Foretravel didn't do a very neat job with the Romex. Strange as their 12V wiring is very neat in most areas.

Please PM with any questions. I can also send fridge compartment photos if you can't find them in the archives.

Pierce
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #16
Sad that it is undermanned!  If I could, and they are Looking, I can let the word out to my Marine Buds!  A few that are Trained CFR's! There are so many Military Airfields in California to recruit from as well! 
Also, is that an Actual Wolf?  We support our Local Wolf Preserve in PA, and go and visit them from time to time!  Gorgeous and Majestic animals, for sure!
When I retired, our department had 118 members. Now, it's down to around 89. It's cheaper for the city to pay overtime than pay health/retirement benefits. Only one or two can afford to live in SB now so we have 48 hour shifts as they have to drive at least an hour to get home. When there is an opening now, there are at least a couple thousand that apply. My dad spent 42 years there. I worked with him for three.

Yes, Koda came from a wolf breeder not far from here. Unfortunately, he spent his first 13 weeks underground in a den. You usually only have 9 days to bond with them and it took a very long time for our neighbors to tame him after getting him. They got a divorce after a year and we took him. He is 12 now and goes flying with us, has been to Mexico several times, coast to coast twice in the U300 and is just a great guy. He has also done a photo shoot with three of the Project Runway designers. At Yellowstone and other NPs, he draws huge crowds for photo ops. He has a tiny bit of malamute/husky so he is legal in all states and most counties. The giveaway is the little red on his nose.

Almost everything you read about them is false. They are easy going and never aggressive. The are very noisy and talk and howl a lot. They bond with their pack (us) and have separation anxiety so we have to take him and his terrier buddy with us all the time. Sheep and cattle ranchers pay a lot to keep the "big bad wolf" image. Some people make the mistake of breeding them with german shepherds, pit bulls, chows, etc to make a very large and ill tempered dog. Koda weights 85 lbs, about the average for a male Yellowstone wolf. There was a huge one there at 144 lbs and the Russians had the largest at about 175 lbs.
Pierce and Gaylie Stewart
'93 U300/36 WTBI
Detroit 6V-92TA Jake
1140 watts on the roof
SBFD (ret)

Re: Engine compartment fire suppression system

Reply #17
I like the idea of loose fitting wraps on high pressure fuel lines, would help eliminate more volatile mists, not sure it's necessary, but it sure is cheap, easy, and doesn't take much time.
Old Phart Phred, EIEIO
89 GV ored 36' #3405 300 hp cat 3208 ATAAC side radiator, mountain tamer exhaust brake