Title: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Barry Beam on July 22, 2010, 12:09:16 pm
Post by: Barry Beam on July 22, 2010, 12:09:16 pm
Since I have never seen my filter minder gauge move, I thought it might not be working.
So I pulled off the small diameter rubber hose at air cleaner and very light sucked by mouth on the hose
and low and behold the filter minder gauge moved right up,so it works,
it is just my air cleaner does not get dirty enough to cause a vacuum inside the filter.
I have read in a motorcade article
"The fact is most air filters are changed too frequently".
So I sent some photos to James Triana asking if this filter was considered dirty and replacing.
The recommendation from the engine manufacture would be to replace the filter if removed.
If I were working on the unit and saw a filter like this I would replace it.
At the filter canister make sure the brass elbow is not stopped up or plugged.
Make sure filter is not installed backwards, as I have seen this happen before.
If memory serves me correctly I think the minder runs around 10 – 12 inches of vacuum at normal operation and new filter.
So this filter looks dirty to me but the minder has a mind of its own.
Whats a person to do :(
More info on the Motorcade Article:
http://beamalarm.com/Documents/know_your_air_cleaner.htm (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/know_your_air_cleaner.htm)
So I pulled off the small diameter rubber hose at air cleaner and very light sucked by mouth on the hose
and low and behold the filter minder gauge moved right up,so it works,
it is just my air cleaner does not get dirty enough to cause a vacuum inside the filter.
I have read in a motorcade article
"The fact is most air filters are changed too frequently".
So I sent some photos to James Triana asking if this filter was considered dirty and replacing.
The recommendation from the engine manufacture would be to replace the filter if removed.
If I were working on the unit and saw a filter like this I would replace it.
At the filter canister make sure the brass elbow is not stopped up or plugged.
Make sure filter is not installed backwards, as I have seen this happen before.
If memory serves me correctly I think the minder runs around 10 – 12 inches of vacuum at normal operation and new filter.
So this filter looks dirty to me but the minder has a mind of its own.
Whats a person to do :(
More info on the Motorcade Article:
http://beamalarm.com/Documents/know_your_air_cleaner.htm (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/know_your_air_cleaner.htm)
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: wolfe10 on July 22, 2010, 04:48:48 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 22, 2010, 04:48:48 pm
The other reason for changing air filters (the operative one for most of us) is AGE.
These elements are made of paper and glue. According to the engineer at Wix with whom I had a lengthy discussion on this subject, the paper and glue do break down with age.
Recommendation-- replace every three years and buy new ones from places with fast turnover/new stock.
Brett Wolfe
These elements are made of paper and glue. According to the engineer at Wix with whom I had a lengthy discussion on this subject, the paper and glue do break down with age.
Recommendation-- replace every three years and buy new ones from places with fast turnover/new stock.
Brett Wolfe
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Jon Twork on July 22, 2010, 06:25:15 pm
Post by: Jon Twork on July 22, 2010, 06:25:15 pm
I am curious, as to how many miles are on that dirty filter.
Regards,
Regards,
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Barry Beam on July 22, 2010, 06:39:03 pm
Post by: Barry Beam on July 22, 2010, 06:39:03 pm
Quote
I am curious, as to how many miles are on that dirty filter.
I will ask him about the miles and date replaced.
He has never replaced the filter since he bought the coach.
But the previous owner kept great repair records.
Since the minder does not seem to move and appears to be working,
and that filter sure looked dirty to me.
It looks like I would have to visually inspect it to know if it needs changing & then I might as well replace it so not to get any dirt fall off in there.
I would not want to wait 3 years to check it.
When I was at the factory they replaced my air filter even though the minder did not indicate it.
Soooo I guess the minder is really not dependable as an indicator OR the filter could get much dirtier and be fine.
Is it worth the risk?
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: wolfe10 on July 22, 2010, 06:51:43 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 22, 2010, 06:51:43 pm
Barry,
The air filter minder IS a good indicator. But the good news is that Foretravel did not skimp on the size (CFM) of the filters they fit as many others did. I have seen brand new coaches (happened to be Country Coaches) with air filter minder readings of 22" with under a thousand miles on them. BUT they had a smaller filter for their 400 HP than the filter in my 250 HP Foretravel.
So, yes, replace with high air filter minder readings OR every three years.
Brett
The air filter minder IS a good indicator. But the good news is that Foretravel did not skimp on the size (CFM) of the filters they fit as many others did. I have seen brand new coaches (happened to be Country Coaches) with air filter minder readings of 22" with under a thousand miles on them. BUT they had a smaller filter for their 400 HP than the filter in my 250 HP Foretravel.
So, yes, replace with high air filter minder readings OR every three years.
Brett
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Barry Beam on July 22, 2010, 06:57:09 pm
Post by: Barry Beam on July 22, 2010, 06:57:09 pm
Quote
So, yes, replace with high air filter minder readings OR every three years.
Thanks Brett,
So that I am clear.
If the minder was not indicating a change, you would be comfortable leaving the filters pictured below in.
Since I have not seen a filter that the minder says is dirty I have no reference.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: wolfe10 on July 22, 2010, 07:16:46 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 22, 2010, 07:16:46 pm
Barry,
No, I would have chickened out and replaced it given the looks of that one as well.
It would be interesting to know how old and how many miles are on it and if any of those miles were off-road (or to Alaska for example).
Brett Wolfe
No, I would have chickened out and replaced it given the looks of that one as well.
It would be interesting to know how old and how many miles are on it and if any of those miles were off-road (or to Alaska for example).
Brett Wolfe
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Barry Beam on July 22, 2010, 09:33:38 pm
Post by: Barry Beam on July 22, 2010, 09:33:38 pm
Quote
Also you can tap the filter lightly on the ground and shake a lot of dirt out, good for a quick improvement
After a little more research on Donaldsons Filer website I came up with this
http://www.donaldsonfilters.com.au/ (http://www.donaldsonfilters.com.au/)
Best Practice Filter Service
When performing a little self-maintenance on a sluggish vehicle, many a driver will pop open the air cleaner and pull out the filter element thinking a vigorous shake to rid the element of visible dirt will help. Should you be one of those folk who takes this a step further and give the filter a rap against the wheel, guard or ground - then STOP! This action can be the catalyst for major heartbreak.
Air filters designed for use in modern diesel engines actually work more effectively with a build up of dirt on the filter media. Suer that contradicts the belief that dirt an engines don't mix, but your truck's air intake system was engineered to work on the premise that a certain amount of dirt build-up is necessary on the filtration media which, in turn, attracts more dirt. So by shaking off the excess dirt you are actually preventing the filter from reaching its optimal working efficiency.
As for thumping a filter against any hard surface...a buckled, deformed or damaged filter will almost certainly result in contaminant getting through to your engine and that spells trouble. Even the simple act of popping open the air cleaner lid and removing the element exposes an engine to the unnecessary risk of contamination.
So when should you change out your air filter? It's easy-service air filters only by monitoring the restriction level. That means checking the restriction indicator on the dash or installing a manual indicator on the air cleaner housing. This is a small yet worthwhile investment.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: amos.harrison on July 23, 2010, 06:13:09 am
Post by: amos.harrison on July 23, 2010, 06:13:09 am
I disagree with Brett. Now I know I'm it trouble! I always check the air filter indicator operation during engine service. But if it's operating correctly, and not reading a restriction, I wouldn't open up the filter housing. Every time you do it you run the risk of introducing dust into the engine. I've never heard of deterioration of air filters with time by Fleetguard, though there are certainly poorly made filters out there. I would never use an off-brand filter in any engine I owned. Just my two cents worth.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: George Stoltz on July 23, 2010, 11:10:24 pm
Post by: George Stoltz on July 23, 2010, 11:10:24 pm
I thought about sending Brett a private message on this, but on second thought I think everyone should read this.
We spent a couple of days with a Tiffin owner this week. He is an avid reader of the Tiffin Forum and of a Caterpillar Forum. During one of our conversations he said to me that the moderator of the Caterpillar Forum really knows his stuff. I asked my friend if the moderator's name is Brett Wolfe. "Yes, yes" he replied.
So Brett, I hope I didn't embarrass you, but I thought it was high praise. I am glad you are here to share your knowledge.
We spent a couple of days with a Tiffin owner this week. He is an avid reader of the Tiffin Forum and of a Caterpillar Forum. During one of our conversations he said to me that the moderator of the Caterpillar Forum really knows his stuff. I asked my friend if the moderator's name is Brett Wolfe. "Yes, yes" he replied.
So Brett, I hope I didn't embarrass you, but I thought it was high praise. I am glad you are here to share your knowledge.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: rph300use on July 23, 2010, 11:18:55 pm
Post by: rph300use on July 23, 2010, 11:18:55 pm
( At the filter canister make sure the brass elbow is not stopped up or plugged .)
I had a similar problem.
After washing off the end cap with the BRASS Elbow ( it has a brass filter in it) my filter minder gauge stopped working.
I used air to blow the crud out of the brass elbow filter. This corrected the filter minder gauge reading problem.
Hope this helps your problem..
Bob H
I had a similar problem.
After washing off the end cap with the BRASS Elbow ( it has a brass filter in it) my filter minder gauge stopped working.
I used air to blow the crud out of the brass elbow filter. This corrected the filter minder gauge reading problem.
Hope this helps your problem..
Bob H
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: wolfe10 on July 24, 2010, 12:15:55 am
Post by: wolfe10 on July 24, 2010, 12:15:55 am
I disagree with Brett. Now I know I'm it trouble! I always check the air filter indicator operation during engine service. But if it's operating correctly, and not reading a restriction, I wouldn't open up the filter housing. Every time you do it you run the risk of introducing dust into the engine. I've never heard of deterioration of air filters with time by Fleetguard, though there are certainly poorly made filters out there. I would never use an off-brand filter in any engine I owned. Just my two cents worth.
Brett,
I AGREE-- I have never ever suggested opening and doing anything to an air filter other than replacing the filter element when it shows restriction or every three years.
And for anyone who does read restriction, RECORD THE RESTRICTION after installing a new filter. That will give you a base-line from which to work.
The other Brett
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: PatC on July 24, 2010, 11:40:54 am
Post by: PatC on July 24, 2010, 11:40:54 am
I disagree with Brett. Now I know I'm it trouble! I always check the air filter indicator operation during engine service. But if it's operating correctly, and not reading a restriction, I wouldn't open up the filter housing. Every time you do it you run the risk of introducing dust into the engine. I've never heard of deterioration of air filters with time by Fleetguard, though there are certainly poorly made filters out there. I would never use an off-brand filter in any engine I owned. Just my two cents worth.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Dwayne on July 24, 2010, 03:41:34 pm
Post by: Dwayne on July 24, 2010, 03:41:34 pm
I really don't understand the filter minder on mine. It is a black plastic cylinder with a green ring around the middle and the top of it is rubberized with RESET on it. From where it is located I don't see how it does anything. I plan on changing the filter every third year regardless.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on July 24, 2010, 06:16:11 pm
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on July 24, 2010, 06:16:11 pm
After looking at the pictures, the filter definitely needs to be replaced. Must be a blockage in the filter minder somewhere like at the hose fitting. The other thing that is puzzling to me is that the dirt is on the outside of the filter. On my 96 U270 the big end goes into the canister first and the cover over the small end. The incoming air enters the big end. I know the air filter location was changed in later models, so maybe the air flow through the filter was changed as well. I reset the reminder occasionally just to see if it is working.
Jerry Whiteaker
96 U270 36'
Jerry Whiteaker
96 U270 36'
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: wolfe10 on July 24, 2010, 06:24:06 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on July 24, 2010, 06:24:06 pm
I really don't understand the filter minder on mine. It is a black plastic cylinder with a green ring around the middle and the top of it is rubberized with RESET on it. From where it is located I don't see how it does anything. I plan on changing the filter every third year regardless.
Dwayne,
To get a better understanding of how the air filter minder works, take loose the end where it attaches to the air filter. Suck on it and watch the filter minder. You will see the gauge reading slowly go all the way to the top. Push the button on the end to reset to zero. Repeat until it makes sense.
Brett Wolfe
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: PatC on July 28, 2010, 05:20:22 pm
Post by: PatC on July 28, 2010, 05:20:22 pm
How the Filterminder works: http://www.filterminder.com/hfmw_air.asp (http://www.filterminder.com/hfmw_air.asp)
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Barry & Cindy on July 28, 2010, 09:01:46 pm
Post by: Barry & Cindy on July 28, 2010, 09:01:46 pm
Pull off the small rubber hose at the air cleaner housing and suck on the hose with your mouth. It is surprising how little vacuum it takes to move the filter minder.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Chuck Croft on August 10, 2010, 10:54:14 pm
Post by: Chuck Croft on August 10, 2010, 10:54:14 pm
Just had my 52000 mile check up at FT and was shocked to find that they had replaced my air filter, Shocked why, they had replaced last year 7000 miles ago. When I hit the roof and informed them they had just replaced it 7000 miles ago the said that they always check. Get this we do not check the filter minder as it may not work. They pull the filter and see if it show dirt on it if so they replace. They ran down the filter and brought it in and it had some dirt but I.m sure it was not dirty enough to replace as my 97 had 50000 miles and was replaced twice. The final straw is they offered to blow it off and put it back. All these actions run against what has been posted.
I have only had FT work on my coaches but I feel the level of their service is starting to go down. I had the transyne changed las year but the did not update the tag and by luck the were discussing this in front of me or they were about to service the transmission again.
I have only had FT work on my coaches but I feel the level of their service is starting to go down. I had the transyne changed las year but the did not update the tag and by luck the were discussing this in front of me or they were about to service the transmission again.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Barry & Cindy on August 11, 2010, 10:55:55 am
Post by: Barry & Cindy on August 11, 2010, 10:55:55 am
There is no such thing as a 52000 mile (or any other mileage) check up. You decide what they should check and replace. You know your coach and your driving usage. Asking for a checkup is an open checkbook as they call the shots. They are not wrong to error on the conservative side. Besides it is up the individual service tech what he thinks should be changed, and every tech will do it differently.
See, it worked for transmission fluid change when you got involved.
Don't be mad at them for helping you keep your coach working. You did not ask them to minimize the cost and consult with you on what they find. Besides diesel engines love clean air as well as clean fuel, as it the only thing that makes them go.
See, it worked for transmission fluid change when you got involved.
Don't be mad at them for helping you keep your coach working. You did not ask them to minimize the cost and consult with you on what they find. Besides diesel engines love clean air as well as clean fuel, as it the only thing that makes them go.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Russell on August 11, 2010, 04:35:17 pm
Post by: Russell on August 11, 2010, 04:35:17 pm
Coincidentally, I changed mine just today.
Initially, I was just planning on changing the oil/filter in generator and clean some of the dirt and grime off the engine in the rear.
While cleaning the engine, I noticed that the filter minder had crept up a tad. Although it wasn't enough to necessarily warrant a filter change, I didn't have any record of when the the filter had last been changed, and so I not only changed the filter, but cleaned out some caked dirt from the filter housing. I used both vacuum and damp cloths to get the interior of the filter housing looking like new.
At the very minimum, I now have a record of the most recent air filter change.
Initially, I was just planning on changing the oil/filter in generator and clean some of the dirt and grime off the engine in the rear.
While cleaning the engine, I noticed that the filter minder had crept up a tad. Although it wasn't enough to necessarily warrant a filter change, I didn't have any record of when the the filter had last been changed, and so I not only changed the filter, but cleaned out some caked dirt from the filter housing. I used both vacuum and damp cloths to get the interior of the filter housing looking like new.
At the very minimum, I now have a record of the most recent air filter change.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Felix and Gail on August 11, 2010, 08:10:15 pm
Post by: Felix and Gail on August 11, 2010, 08:10:15 pm
I have had the filter minder show a marked increase in vacum after driving in a heavy rain but went back to normal next day. Believe I read this was ok and did not warrant a filter change. Correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: John Cooper on August 12, 2010, 09:56:21 pm
Post by: John Cooper on August 12, 2010, 09:56:21 pm
Russell,
I just checked the Filter Minder website and verified what I remembered which is that the Filter Minder STAYS at the highest reading it sees, so to me that would say that there is something wrong with yours.
I just checked the Filter Minder website and verified what I remembered which is that the Filter Minder STAYS at the highest reading it sees, so to me that would say that there is something wrong with yours.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: wolfe10 on August 12, 2010, 10:36:08 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on August 12, 2010, 10:36:08 pm
John is correct. The air filter minder STORES the highest restriction it sees until it is reset by pushing the button on the bottom of the air filter minder. That resets it to zero. So it again starts recording and storing the highest vacuum it is exposed to.
Brett Wolfe
Brett Wolfe
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: amos.harrison on August 13, 2010, 08:51:56 am
Post by: amos.harrison on August 13, 2010, 08:51:56 am
To verify cleanliness of the air filter, accelerate at wide open throttle a couple times. Then check your filter minder. If you never accelerate that way, you don't tax the air filter.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on August 14, 2010, 08:40:28 pm
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on August 14, 2010, 08:40:28 pm
I have had the filter minder show a marked increase in vacum after driving in a heavy rain but went back to normal next day. Believe I read this was ok and did not warrant a filter change. Correct me if I am wrong.
I think that would be correct to ignore any readings obtained after driving in heavy rain and to recheck later in dry weather. A wet paper air filter will have more restriction than a dry one. Personal experience with a gasoline engine powered pressure washer proved that to me. The paper air cleaner became wet because of a water spray leak from the supply hose; the engine ran rich as though the choke was closed with very little power.
My FT has a water separator before the air filter and earlier models may have them too. However in a heavy rain the paper filter may become damp. Other owners have reported leaves and trash on the screen above the water separator.
Title: Air filter change
Post by: Dick S on June 26, 2011, 03:55:19 pm
Post by: Dick S on June 26, 2011, 03:55:19 pm
I have described my experience changing the air filter with photos in the attachment in hopes it may help someone.
Title: Re: Air filter change
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 26, 2011, 04:13:17 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 26, 2011, 04:13:17 pm
Dick, I loved your coverage of the air filter replacement. I feel people should not blindly trust the restriction gauge, like your info, I have never seen my gauge show any indication of restriction even when I remove the cartridge, it looks nearly as bad as your filter, when I do the light test, can see clearly how restricted it is with very little light showing through.
Your pix and wording should make it perfectly clear.
Thanks
Your pix and wording should make it perfectly clear.
Thanks
Title: Re: Air filter change
Post by: George Stoltz on June 26, 2011, 04:58:49 pm
Post by: George Stoltz on June 26, 2011, 04:58:49 pm
Good job, Dick,
Too bad the filter is such a weird shape. It sure make replacing it a real challenge. BTDT.
Too bad the filter is such a weird shape. It sure make replacing it a real challenge. BTDT.
Title: Re: Air filter change
Post by: Don Hay on June 26, 2011, 06:56:19 pm
Post by: Don Hay on June 26, 2011, 06:56:19 pm
Dick,
I really enjoyed your description and pictures of changing your air filter. However, it generated a host of questions: In my '92 U-280, 300 hp Cummins setup, the filter orientation is exactly opposite, in that
1) the small end is inserted first and fits snuggly at the very back of the canister
2) air is drawn directly through the outside grill into the large, open end of the filter, into the core and through the outer circumference of the filter.
3) thus, the inside of the filter gets dirty, not the outside
4) there is no place, at least that I can see, to use the large diameter foam rubber gasket that is supplied with the filter. The very first time I replaced the air filter, I was careful to take note of all components and gaskets. There was no foam gasket around the circumference of the large opening of the filter. Thus, I was perplexed at not knowing where to put this large one until I saw your pictures
5) In your picture number 6, a tiny (~1/8") hole is shown clearly in the small end of the filter. Thus with my filter's orientation, that hole allows dirty, unfiltered air to bypass the filter media and directly enter the clean side (outside of the filter) of the canister and the intake to the engine. Therefore, I have been placing a small patch of duct tape over the hole from the inside of the filter. Am I interfering with the air dynamics by blocking that hole? I just couldn't see allowing dirty air (albeit a small amount) to enter the engine.
I would appreciate hearing from any of you about this and in particular, from fellow Grandvilla owners who have the same air filter arrangement.
I intended to post pictures, but the coach is currently at MOT, where they are replacing our 6 years (to the day) old Dometic with a new one.
I really enjoyed your description and pictures of changing your air filter. However, it generated a host of questions: In my '92 U-280, 300 hp Cummins setup, the filter orientation is exactly opposite, in that
1) the small end is inserted first and fits snuggly at the very back of the canister
2) air is drawn directly through the outside grill into the large, open end of the filter, into the core and through the outer circumference of the filter.
3) thus, the inside of the filter gets dirty, not the outside
4) there is no place, at least that I can see, to use the large diameter foam rubber gasket that is supplied with the filter. The very first time I replaced the air filter, I was careful to take note of all components and gaskets. There was no foam gasket around the circumference of the large opening of the filter. Thus, I was perplexed at not knowing where to put this large one until I saw your pictures
5) In your picture number 6, a tiny (~1/8") hole is shown clearly in the small end of the filter. Thus with my filter's orientation, that hole allows dirty, unfiltered air to bypass the filter media and directly enter the clean side (outside of the filter) of the canister and the intake to the engine. Therefore, I have been placing a small patch of duct tape over the hole from the inside of the filter. Am I interfering with the air dynamics by blocking that hole? I just couldn't see allowing dirty air (albeit a small amount) to enter the engine.
I would appreciate hearing from any of you about this and in particular, from fellow Grandvilla owners who have the same air filter arrangement.
I intended to post pictures, but the coach is currently at MOT, where they are replacing our 6 years (to the day) old Dometic with a new one.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 26, 2011, 07:14:33 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 26, 2011, 07:14:33 pm
Don, I do not know your filter setup, BUT on my 01 320, like the 03 320, on the small end there is a hole in the center but there is also a rubber gasket around the small end of filter, this is to seal off the outside air. The reason for the small hole is so the filter minder can get a sniff of the vacuum / restriction.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Dick S on June 26, 2011, 08:07:27 pm
Post by: Dick S on June 26, 2011, 08:07:27 pm
Don, I wish I had a photo of the large end of that filter. But I'm 99.9% sure that it also has a seal glued to it. So the seal at the large end seals around the opening at the back of the canister, which is the engine air intake, and the one on the small end seals on the cover. Unfiltered air comes in through the large hose on the side of the canister and because of the two end seals goes through the outside of the filter and out to the motor. I agree with Dave that small hole is for the filter minder.
Some photos of your system would help.
Some time ago a mechanic explained an oil saturated K & N filter to me and I think ours work the same way. The filter media will get plugged first where the dirty air hits it. But then that air starts to go through a clean part of the filter further down or around. This continues. So the filter media really has a large surface area and probably explains why the filter minder shows no restriction when we see all that crud. Somewhere on the other side and way down at the other end, it's clean enough. Well that's my story anyway ... :D
Some photos of your system would help.
Some time ago a mechanic explained an oil saturated K & N filter to me and I think ours work the same way. The filter media will get plugged first where the dirty air hits it. But then that air starts to go through a clean part of the filter further down or around. This continues. So the filter media really has a large surface area and probably explains why the filter minder shows no restriction when we see all that crud. Somewhere on the other side and way down at the other end, it's clean enough. Well that's my story anyway ... :D
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Don Hay on June 26, 2011, 09:07:48 pm
Post by: Don Hay on June 26, 2011, 09:07:48 pm
Dick,
You are correct: the large end of the filter has a foam seal/gasket glued to it, and in your system the large end seals against the back of the canister. However, in my system the foam gasket on the large opening seals against an open bracket that centers the cartridge in the canister and seals off the outer canister compartment (space around outside of filter). Outside air flows over the bracket and into the center of the filter. In our system there is no "large hose"; air comes directly from the outside, around a baffle and into the large opening of the filter. Interesting differences between the Unicoaches and Unihomes.
So Dave thinks the tiny opening is for the filter minder? That would mean that my sealing it off prevents the minder from doing its job, but also stops contamination into the engine.
Tomorrow when I pick up my coach, I'll take some pics and send them on.
I really appreciate the great pics when you work on your coach.
You are correct: the large end of the filter has a foam seal/gasket glued to it, and in your system the large end seals against the back of the canister. However, in my system the foam gasket on the large opening seals against an open bracket that centers the cartridge in the canister and seals off the outer canister compartment (space around outside of filter). Outside air flows over the bracket and into the center of the filter. In our system there is no "large hose"; air comes directly from the outside, around a baffle and into the large opening of the filter. Interesting differences between the Unicoaches and Unihomes.
So Dave thinks the tiny opening is for the filter minder? That would mean that my sealing it off prevents the minder from doing its job, but also stops contamination into the engine.
Tomorrow when I pick up my coach, I'll take some pics and send them on.
I really appreciate the great pics when you work on your coach.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on June 26, 2011, 09:10:14 pm
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on June 26, 2011, 09:10:14 pm
Dick S,
Thanks for all the pictures of a really dirty air filter. I have the same air cleaner and filter, but FT installed it differently. It sits sideways behind the hydraulic pump and just clears the engine door. The air enters the end and goes out the side opening rather than the other way around as on yours. Air passes through the large end of the filter so that dirt is trapped inside the filter. Doubt if the dirt cares about which way is better. It's a little harder to get to the hydraulic pump belt, but maybe a little easier to remove the oil filter with it mounted across. The suction line for the gage is mounted on the side rather than the end cap. If your gage didn't indicate a dirty filter, it's rather worthless.
Thanks for all the pictures of a really dirty air filter. I have the same air cleaner and filter, but FT installed it differently. It sits sideways behind the hydraulic pump and just clears the engine door. The air enters the end and goes out the side opening rather than the other way around as on yours. Air passes through the large end of the filter so that dirt is trapped inside the filter. Doubt if the dirt cares about which way is better. It's a little harder to get to the hydraulic pump belt, but maybe a little easier to remove the oil filter with it mounted across. The suction line for the gage is mounted on the side rather than the end cap. If your gage didn't indicate a dirty filter, it's rather worthless.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: John Haygarth on June 27, 2011, 12:26:08 am
Post by: John Haygarth on June 27, 2011, 12:26:08 am
You have all talked about the exact reason I designed and installed the Rear Air Deflector (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/rear_air_deflector.html) I made on my coach. I said at the time that last Nov when at FOT I asked the mechanic what the filters usually look like when they do the servicing and he said "real bad". I have had this on the coach for a year now and last trip was 12,000 miles thru' all kinds of weather and dusty roads in Mexico. I took a look at the filter last week and it is almost still like new with no crap etc inside housing (unlike before doing it). I am very pleased with what it is doing and can rest easy knowing the likely hood of any damage to turbo etc is removed. I know the reasons for not taking a look at the filter due to the chance of particulate loosening and going into engine, but having done this for many years in the construction field on large deisels for cranes and never a problem I do take care not to knock it or? My care on my unit is 100% better than many mechanics who are paid to service our units, and I did work for a few years in the building of both Jet and helicopter engines in England. A little bit tighter specs than Deisels.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on June 27, 2011, 12:43:12 am
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on June 27, 2011, 12:43:12 am
Don, I wish I had a photo of the large end of that filter. But I'm 99.9% sure that it also has a seal glued to it.
Just checked the spare filter here at the house, there is a seal glued on both ends and a loose one for the cap.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: spike45 on June 28, 2011, 06:24:44 pm
Post by: spike45 on June 28, 2011, 06:24:44 pm
Since I have never seen my filter minder gauge move, I thought it might not be working.
So I pulled off the small diameter rubber hose at air cleaner and very light sucked by mouth on the hose
and low and behold the filter minder gauge moved right up,so it works,
it is just my air cleaner does not get dirty enough to cause a vacuum inside the filter.
I have read in a motorcade article
"The fact is most air filters are changed too frequently".
So I sent some photos to James Triana asking if this filter was considered dirty and replacing.
The recommendation from the engine manufacture would be to replace the filter if removed.
If I were working on the unit and saw a filter like this I would replace it.
At the filter canister make sure the brass elbow is not stopped up or plugged.
Make sure filter is not installed backwards, as I have seen this happen before.
If memory serves me correctly I think the minder runs around 10 – 12 inches of vacuum at normal operation and new filter.
So this filter looks dirty to me but the minder has a mind of its own.
Whats a person to do :(
More info on the Motorcade Article:
beamalarm.com/Documents/know_your_air_cleaner.htm
I posted this article on iRV2.com/Monaco
Engine O&M Guides do not list air filter service interval information because that is not something that is predictable like lube oil, fuel or coolant filter service intervals. Air filters will accumulate dust at varying rates due to ambient conditions depending on terrain, location, traffic, and weather. Because of these varying and complex interaction conditions, air filter service you should be doing is NOT inspecting the filter element to SEE if it is plugged. The most reliable and safe method for determining air filter condition and remaining life is to use a restriction gauge such as the Filter Minder(tm) by Engineered Products of Waterloo, Iowa. This product is now the most commonly used indicator in the engine business, LD, MD, and HD diesel (some gasoline).
How does a Filter Minder Air Filter Service Indicator work?
Restriction indicators are able to measure the small pressure differences between the ambient air pressure and the air pressure on the clean side of the air filter. Most engine manufacturers list the upper limit of air filter life as being 25 inches water, about 1 PSI difference in air pressure. Engine ECM controls measure manifold absolute pressure and adjust fuel rates accordingly. It would appear that most MH operations do not achieve sufficient run time and miles to bring on air filter plugging. If you check your restriction indicator, you may see little movement and conclude that it does not work. This is a common but unfortunate outcome even for large on-highway truck fleet operators who commonly put on 125,000 plus miles per year. For them, with their miles, they frequently change the air filter yearly, whether it is needed or not. For them, that works as they generally keep their units for 4 -5 years then trade them off.
For the MH operator a yearly air filter change is much less desirable as the miles involved are few. Air filters will pass dust when first installed. Usually, it will be during the first 25 hours of normal operation. New air filters are usually 99.3% efficient but after the initial 25 hours the efficiency goes up to 99.8%+ and remains for the duration until the 25 inch restriction limit is achieved. Fewer changes will equate to less dust ingested due to filter service. Any ingested dust is cumulative. Eventually, with enough changes the accumulated dust will reach 4 - 5 ounces, enough to cause cylinder bore and ring wear on a midrange size engine like a Cummins C, ISC, ISL, Caterpillar C9, C12 and comparable engines from International and Detroit.
While it is undesirable to get an air filter wet, the effects are usually short lived. Wetting the air filter will cause the indicator to rise, sometimes to the point of achieving the maximum restriction. It is an easy matter to check the restriction and reset it. Do not change the air filter because of that instance. If it rises to a high restriction level quickly again. Service the element at that time and reset the indicator.
What I am recommending you do for a PM interval for the air cleaner system is to determine that restriction indicator is functioning correctly. If it fails to lock up showing maxium achieved restriction the indicator does you no good. Then you may be forced to change the air filter if you have such doubts.
To test a restriction such as the Filter Minder(tm), operate the engine a low idle speed. Cover the air inlet such that you are inducing an artificial restriction simulating plugging conditions on the air filter. As restriction rises, you should see the indicator rise to some level and hold in that position when you remove the restriction. Shut the engine off. Push the yellow rubber button on the bottom of the Filter Minder(tm). It should drop down to the lowest level. If it does not, the sensing line or small brass fitting is plugged. The small brass fitting on this device has a porous bronze filter. Sometimes they become plugged with dust. There is also a very small orifice hole in the bronze filter fitting. It has been known to plug. If the gauge does not reset, remove it and the brass fitting to clean the fittings. Blow them out with compressed air and use of some solvent or even water. When you re-install the gauge, be careful not to see how strong you are. The Filter Miner(tm) now is made with a straight thread and o-ring seal. It can be hand tightened easily. If you have the earlier style, it has tapered pipe thread. It was easily possible to over-tighten that gauge and crack the housing.
What if the gauge does not lock up during the restriction test? In that instance the gauge is faulty. Replace it.
For some there may be the original restriction gauge from Donaldson. It has a red flag indicator with no means of showing advancing restriction. I would recommend replacing that gauge with the one listed above.
That is all there is to PM interval based air filter maintenance. You should periodically check the rubber boots and band clamps. The rubber boots and elbows on the clean side of the air filter must remain pliable for the band clamps to be able to seal. Due to heat and time, the rubber will take what is called a 'compression set' and become hard. Removal of those boots and connectors and re-installing may not result in the same level of air tight seal that you need to prevent dust ingestion. This is especially important if your air cleaner is a Far Ecolite or any replaceable housing air filter. Tightening the clamp may make the clamp tight but the boot hose does not clamp onto the air housing.
__________________
Gary Spires (W9GAS), Field Service Engineer
Coolants, Cooling Systems, Filtration, Diesel Engines
https://picasaweb.google.com/garyspires45
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Don Hay on June 29, 2011, 12:01:00 am
Post by: Don Hay on June 29, 2011, 12:01:00 am
I managed to take a few pictures of the arrangement of the air filter canister in a U-280 Grandvilla. Hopefully it will add to the description I made a few days ago. I added a 1/4" hardware cloth cover over the canister intake, as I have in the past, retrieved full 8 1/2"X11" sheets of paper as well as large oak leaves from the inside of the filter.
The tear-drop shaped fiberglass shield rests on top of the bracket , so that there is about a 3" deep clearance between the fiberglass cover and the filter intake. A profile picture illustrates the depth. The duct tape on the edge of the hardware cloth was to blunt the sharp edges.
I am including a pic of the extra foam gasket, to show that there is no groove in which it can fit in this setup.
The filter minder tube inserts very close (within 4") to the actual engine intake near the end of the canister.
Is this arrangement the tiny hole at the end of the filter is sealed off from the outside of the filter by the smaller foam gasket at the end of the filter, so I don't see how it could influence the filter minder.
What appears to be a large hole at the back of the filter is just a circle of sun light, though it is deceiving.
Hope this clarifies things for a '92 U-280. :)
The tear-drop shaped fiberglass shield rests on top of the bracket , so that there is about a 3" deep clearance between the fiberglass cover and the filter intake. A profile picture illustrates the depth. The duct tape on the edge of the hardware cloth was to blunt the sharp edges.
I am including a pic of the extra foam gasket, to show that there is no groove in which it can fit in this setup.
The filter minder tube inserts very close (within 4") to the actual engine intake near the end of the canister.
Is this arrangement the tiny hole at the end of the filter is sealed off from the outside of the filter by the smaller foam gasket at the end of the filter, so I don't see how it could influence the filter minder.
What appears to be a large hole at the back of the filter is just a circle of sun light, though it is deceiving.
Hope this clarifies things for a '92 U-280. :)
Title: Re: Air filter change
Post by: spike45 on June 30, 2011, 11:26:17 am
Post by: spike45 on June 30, 2011, 11:26:17 am
Dick, I loved your coverage of the air filter replacement. I feel people should not blindly trust the restriction gauge, like your info, I have never seen my gauge show any indication of restriction even when I remove the cartridge, it looks nearly as bad as your filter, when I do the light test, can see clearly how restricted it is with very little light showing through.
Your pix and wording should make it perfectly clear.
Thanks
The problem that MHers have is that you do not run the coach long enough (miles) to see the air filter collect significant dust. So, you do not believe the device works. They work and work very well. Your air filter is capable of holding a few thousand grams of dust if run to the 25" water restriction (red band on the Filter Minder). Most on-highway 18w trucks average 125,000 miles yearly. Their restriction gauges rarely indicate higher than 15". In field return testing of air filters from our truck customers we have found that at the 125K - 150K miles, the restriction is not close to being maxed out. Our recommendation on air filters is to run to near maximum restriction. See my article I posted above. You can sure judge an air filter by its looks but like judging people, it is what you cannot see that matters. They 'look' dirty. Means nothing. But as a service engineer for a filter company I think I can speak on behalf of all filter company service guys.....thanks for changing your air filter too frequently. It helps our company a lot to have the increased sales. :)
I have told countless truck customers that they are spending too much money on our air filters by changing needlessly. Sales guys do not like that but it is solid technical advice.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 30, 2011, 11:54:46 am
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 30, 2011, 11:54:46 am
Gary, I thank you for your view on having a dirty filter,
My thoughts: if the filter companies are selling filters that need to be pre clogged to make them effective, that maybe they would offer such filters instead of selling non effective filters until they collect half a pound of dirt.
Maybe the big problem with the K&N filters is simply, they take too long to catch enough dirt to make them effective ?
For me, when I put a bright light inside a filter and see very little/no visable light shining thru to the outside in a shaded area, I feel just maybe it needs replaced, I never thought it was just approching its prime of life.
My thoughts: if the filter companies are selling filters that need to be pre clogged to make them effective, that maybe they would offer such filters instead of selling non effective filters until they collect half a pound of dirt.
Maybe the big problem with the K&N filters is simply, they take too long to catch enough dirt to make them effective ?
For me, when I put a bright light inside a filter and see very little/no visable light shining thru to the outside in a shaded area, I feel just maybe it needs replaced, I never thought it was just approching its prime of life.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: spike45 on June 30, 2011, 12:12:48 pm
Post by: spike45 on June 30, 2011, 12:12:48 pm
Dick S,
Thanks for all the pictures of a really dirty air filter. I have the same air cleaner and filter, but FT installed it differently. It sits sideways behind the hydraulic pump and just clears the engine door. The air enters the end and goes out the side opening rather than the other way around as on yours. Air passes through the large end of the filter so that dirt is trapped inside the filter. Doubt if the dirt cares about which way is better. It's a little harder to get to the hydraulic pump belt, but maybe a little easier to remove the oil filter with it mounted across. The suction line for the gauge is mounted on the side rather than the end cap. If your gauge didn't indicate a dirty filter, it's rather worthless.
Foretravel used the Donaldson EBA air cleaner housings. That housing came in two flavors, KP I an KP II. The KP I housing has the dirty air inlet on the end opposite the cover. The KP II has the air inlet as an opening in the service cover. The air filter element is the same in both housings but the large open end is always inserted such that it faces the incoming dirty air. Both housing types have a cover gasket that may not appear to "fall into place". It does not. It is stretched over the housing diameter under each of the four studs. Failure to install this gasket provides an excellent dust entry point and subsequent engine destruction from inhaling dusty air.
While air may not care which way it goes through the element, the service life of the element is less with an inside out flow design on all air cleaners. This is due to the inner diameter pleats being closer to touching thus restricting air flow more and packing with dust faster. With an Outside-In element, the pleats are more open and spread apart thus more air and more dust capacity.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: spike45 on June 30, 2011, 12:21:50 pm
Post by: spike45 on June 30, 2011, 12:21:50 pm
Gary, I thank you for your view on having a dirty filter,
My thoughts: if the filter companies are selling filters that need to be pre clogged to make them effective, that maybe they would offer such filters instead of selling non effective filters until they collect half a pound of dirt.
Maybe the big problem with the K&N filters is simply, they take too long to catch enough dirt to make them effective ?
For me, when I put a bright light inside a filter and see very little/no visable light shining thru to the outside in a shaded area, I feel just maybe it needs replaced, I never thought it was just approching its prime of life.
Dave,
We could design an air filter that has much higher initial restriction. That is a no-brainer. But you would have very little life from such a product. Air filter paper has a pore range of 0.5 micron to 5 micron for the largest population of pores. A micron is 39 millions of an inch. A lot of dust, especially in the Southwest is in the sub-micron range. This is an issue for some customers as air filters still pass more of that size dust especially when the air filter is changed too frequently (before 22 inches water, 25 inches maximum).
The K&N type air filters can never catch significant dust due to their pore distribution being much larger than a paper element. Their claim is they can pass more air for those engines that have had the ECM jacked up to produce twice the HP the OEM designed the engine for. That type does do as advertised....increase air flow. They do not brag about their ability to remove dust unless you think their 96% removal is good. We consider a paper element in your application to be failed if it only achieve 99.6% dust removal (light duty app).
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Dick S on June 30, 2011, 01:13:16 pm
Post by: Dick S on June 30, 2011, 01:13:16 pm
Gary, the local industrial supply house I use to buy filters told me "here in the NW where we have so much rain and moisture in the air, I recommend changing these air filters every year". He feels the moisture affects the paper.
What say you?
What say you?
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 30, 2011, 02:35:27 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 30, 2011, 02:35:27 pm
Gary, I agree with your views, it just amazes me that the filter engineers would not also have similar views on the other filters such as lube oil, guess it is too costly to have a restriction gauge in the lube filter line. Just thoughts, and for sure the K&N jab was for laughs.
Thanks for your experience and views
Thanks for your experience and views
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: Kent Speers on June 30, 2011, 02:39:18 pm
Post by: Kent Speers on June 30, 2011, 02:39:18 pm
Gary, I used to do tech service in another industry and in one month I had the opportunity see more potential problems and solutions than a customer would see in an entire career. They didn't always listen to me and it always costed them money.
I hope everyone listens to your good advice. Granted, it is your opinion but it is a very educated opinion. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.
I hope everyone listens to your good advice. Granted, it is your opinion but it is a very educated opinion. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: spike45 on June 30, 2011, 02:45:28 pm
Post by: spike45 on June 30, 2011, 02:45:28 pm
Gary, the local industrial supply house I use to buy filters told me "here in the NW where we have so much rain and moisture in the air, I recommend changing these air filters every year". He feels the moisture affects the paper.
What say you?
Dick,
To a degree, I do agree with them. Paper media filters can be affected by moisture. But that moisture level only becomes an issue when the paper is thoroughly wetted. On-highway vehicles generally have very poor water separating methods incorporated into the intake and housing designs. When paper media air filters become wet, the dust is washed out of the media into the engine. Changing more frequently does not make this matter better. Dry paper and keeping it dry is the best situation. I see that some MHs have the air intake situated very low, too low. Those systems pick up more road spray from their own tires as well as other vehicles. While impractical for most MHs, an elevated air intake to draw air near the top of the coach would be much better and also will prolong the air cleaner element life as most dust on highway is below that inlet. Have you ever noticed how farm tractors have a very high intake air stack, just below the exhaust stack? That elevation gets cleaner air from above the usual tire-generated dust clouds in the field.
The part about changing yearly really helps their bottom line. ;)
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: spike45 on June 30, 2011, 02:58:05 pm
Post by: spike45 on June 30, 2011, 02:58:05 pm
Gary, I agree with your views, it just amazes me that the filter engineers would not also have similar views on the other filters such as lube oil, guess it is too costly to have a restriction gauge in the lube filter line. Just thoughts, and for sure the K&N jab was for laughs.
Thanks for your experience and views
Dave,
There are restriction gauges for fuel filters. The company that makes the Filter Minder(tm), Engineered Products has such devices. They measure the delta P (pressure drop) across the filter. They only work on suction filters as found on all Cummins, some Caterpillar primary (before the lift pump) filters and any other engine that utilizes suction filtration. I have never seen these on MHs but the Davco 382 fuel water separator system would be an excellent replacement for many fuel systems that use smaller spin-on fuel-water separators. DAVCO Technology, LLC (http://www.davco.com/DFP-_fp382.htm)
Several micron ratings are available for this fine filter system. I personally know of applications where this system has become the only fuel filter mounted on the suction side of the lift pump and capable of being the same level of filtration as the secondary (after the lift pump) filter. A really sweet feature of this product is that you can see the advancing fuel level as the filter plugs. When it is first installed, the clear housing is filled with fuel. Start the engine, and the fuel level falls to almost the bottom of the upper clear bowl. As that filter plugs, the fuel level climbs. Periodic checks of the fuel level will give you plenty of notice as to when the filter is to be changed. It is an easier filter to see the water accumulated, as well. It is an easy filter to change. There is a plastic (optional metal) wrench to remove the large black ring nut that holds the housing down. Simple cap on top to pre-fill the housing. I used to hate this product as our company had a competing product. Davco has become THE standard fuel water separator in over the road trucks. Replacement elements for this housing are easy to find with many aftermarket filter companies offering replacement products.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: spike45 on June 30, 2011, 03:05:56 pm
Post by: spike45 on June 30, 2011, 03:05:56 pm
Gary, I used to do tech service in another industry and in one month I had the opportunity see more potential problems and solutions than a customer would see in an entire career. They didn't always listen to me and it always cost them money.
I hope everyone listens to your good advice. Granted, it is your opinion but it is a very educated opinion. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.
Absolutely agree, Kent.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: amos.harrison on July 02, 2011, 10:24:16 pm
Post by: amos.harrison on July 02, 2011, 10:24:16 pm
You can search the archives for a photo of the fuel restriction gauge I added to my engine. I use it exclusively in deciding when to change fuel filters.
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: George Stoltz on July 02, 2011, 10:32:33 pm
Post by: George Stoltz on July 02, 2011, 10:32:33 pm
Brett,
I searched on FF for fuel restriction gauge and when I clicked on the link I was taken to a site that said I am not a member. Would this be the old Yahoo Forum?
If someone else finds the gauge, maybe they can post a better link.
George
I searched on FF for fuel restriction gauge and when I clicked on the link I was taken to a site that said I am not a member. Would this be the old Yahoo Forum?
If someone else finds the gauge, maybe they can post a better link.
George
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: steve on July 02, 2011, 11:21:14 pm
Post by: steve on July 02, 2011, 11:21:14 pm
The Yahoo thread in the archive Fuel Restriction Gauge (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=4854)
The picture in the photo albums
The picture in the photo albums
Title: Re: Air Filter - Engine
Post by: spike45 on July 05, 2011, 03:50:38 pm
Post by: spike45 on July 05, 2011, 03:50:38 pm
Here is the Filter Minder website: Filter Minder Fuel Filter Monitors (http://www.filterminder.com/fuelmonitors.asp)
This product works on fuel filters that are on the suction side of your fuel lift pump. It is more needed on a suction filter as the only "push" through the fuel filter is atmospheric pressure which BTW is less in high elevations like the Western US mountain states. Pressure side filters are able to run longer as the "push" through the filter is the lift pump pressure output.
This product works on fuel filters that are on the suction side of your fuel lift pump. It is more needed on a suction filter as the only "push" through the fuel filter is atmospheric pressure which BTW is less in high elevations like the Western US mountain states. Pressure side filters are able to run longer as the "push" through the filter is the lift pump pressure output.