Does anyone have any experience with installing a Banks Stinger System on a Cumins B5.9, 230 hp engine. I have a 1993, U225 and am considering using the Stinger. Our travel buddies Jeff and Carol are considering upgrading from their U225 and I don't want them to run off and leave me in the dust. I also would like to tow a 4 door chevy pickup instead of our Subaru Outback.
I read in an old post that the additional torque and HP produced by the Stinger might be hard on my Allison MT643 transmission. Was this just a guess or has someone had problems? Both Banks and Allison don't seem concerned. We have 110,000 miles on the unit.
We have had problems with the engine running hot going up hills in hot weather but I resolved that by adding a front end radiator. However, the Banks tech tells me that the Stinger should reduce exhaust temps, improve mileage and increase horse power to near 300, all of which would be desirable.
Any comments would be appreciated.
All horsepower gains have some element of increased fuel delivery which will increase heat within engine and put an increased heat load on cooling system.
With new attention to how coach is driven down the road the heat gain can be managed.
There certainly is logic to your point. With the Stinger Sys. they change the plate and increase the fuel flow to accommodate the larger turbo housing but the housing also increases the escape of the hot exhaust gases and increases torque and horse power so engine doesn't work as hard on the hills. Banks did not oversell their system but said I could expect a minimal drop in operating temperature. They said I should fix the heating issue before installing the Stinger.
Last week it was 105 degrees and I was running at 202F at 65mph. It got up to 215 on a long steep hill in the Ozarks. Cumins tell me my gauge is reading 10 degrees high. I don't believe them but 202 is acceptable either way.
Before the front radiator mod, I would not have even been driving the coach when it was that hot outside so temperature is no longer the issue. Now my primary concern is will I really get noticeable improvement in power and will it damage the tranny.
What did I miss? Front radiator mod???
I didn't go into detail but my 93 has been running hot since it was new. Going back through the 1st owners repair records, he started asking Cumins to check things out in 1994. He put on 4 new thermostats, Cumins only answer, and I have put on two more. The Cumins dealer here in Oklahoma City could never find a reason the engine ran so hot except to replace thermostats and tell me that my gauge was showing 10 degrees hotter than it should. They did nothing but take my money, over $1,200. I have spent nearly $2,000 on cooling it down over the last three years which included pulling, cleaning the charge air cooler and rodding the radiator, new water pump, new gauges and sending unit, new cap, new belts and a Cumins dino test.
The engine temp normally read 187F. If the ambient temperature was over 80F it started to climb. If ambient was over 100F it ran 210F and would get as hot as 230F on hills that were not too big in size. After all, we are in Oklahoma. I took it to the factory in Nac, they just changed the antifreeze and suggested that they could pull and replace the radiator for $4000. I asked them and Cumins what the maximum running temperature was and got a different answers from everyone I talked to. The max temps ran from 220F up to 240F and the running range was from185F to 210Fso I never knew what was really the safe range. I inspected, repaired or replaced every part related to engine cooling to no avail.
One day this spring when it was really hot, I turned on the dash heater trying to get any additional cooling I could. The running temp dropped from 210 to 190 for about 5 minutes with the dash heater and house A/C running full blast off of the generator. After that revelation, it occurred to me that there was plenty of space in the front of the coach, behind the grill and AC evaporator to install an additional radiator. Since my problem only occurred when running at speed, there should be plenty of air flow to help cool the engine. What I didn't know was whether there was enough coolant flow through the heater hose to make a major difference and I didn't consider the heat given off by the A/C evaporator. The heater lines are only 3/4" ID and the evaporator runs about 190F on hot days.
I ordered a surplus aluminum NASCAR oil cooler/radiator (22" X 26") from EBay and installed it. They are very lite weight. It did some good, about 5 degrees, but the heat generated by the A/C Evaporator really hampers its effectiveness. I then installed a small, three row, vertical industrial radiator vertically on the passenger side of the Evaporator so it got only fresh cool air from the grill. I consider it an aftercooler. I get some cooling, about 20 degrees, from the larger aluminum radiator before it goes through the copper industrial radiator which drops it another 10 degrees. I now have enough extra cooling to run my coach in any temperature. Last week the outside temp on our thermometer was 107F and the engine heat gauge showed 202F and 65 mph.
I haven't gone through a winter yet, but I have a shutoff valve in the circuit if the mod affects the heater. In the circuit, I pulled the coolant for the radiators out before it reaches the heater valve and it returns after going through the heater core.
Well, that's the story. Bet you never thought it would be that long when you asked the question.
Would not mind taking the bet. Have heard longer and stranger stories when it comes to diesels. Have been around them over 40 years now. But I am very happy my U225 does not have the same habit! Did you ever change out that temp gauge?
Yes, new temp gauge and sending unit. They changed nothing. I got exactly the same readings. I even attached the new gauge with a jumper wire to eliminate any interference from the chassis wiring. I have checked the temperature at the base of the sending unit with an IR gun. It is more than 10 degrees cooler than the dash gauge but I always thought I would rather err on the side of caution.
We typically travel with our best friends Jeff and Carol who also have a 1993, U225. Their coach has always run cooler than mine, but they had their charge air cooler replaced and I recently noticed that it has more air flow than mine does. That could be the reason. How hot does your 225 get in high ambient temps, particularly on up hill runs? Please give me some details if you know them.
Irrespective of your exact temperature gauge reading, the important issue is that it moves from that point (thermostatic controlled temperature).
When that happens, it means the thermostat is completely open (unless inoperative) and "other factors" such as air flow, size of radiator, GCW, ambient temperature, etc determine the engine temperature.
The less any engine operates outside/above thermostatic control, the happier I am.
Brett Wolfe
Brett,
Good to hear from you. I always appreciate your expertise. You may recall you gave me some advice on this issue a couple of years ago.
Now let me show my ignorance. Please explain. My thinking is that once it reaches 185, it has a 185 thermostat, it no longer is under thermostatic control. Can you explain your logic? Did I do right by adding the additional cooling with the front radiators?
It looks like things got a little off track. I seem to be obsessed with the heating issue.
Does anyone have experience with the Banks Stinger?
I did a Banks kit on my 93 C8.3 and loved it. My 280 had the MT647 trans and it had no issue with the added torque. You will be using the additional power and torque in 3rd or 4th gear uphill with a locked torque converter - and the trans should handle that with no problem.
The only concern with the mechanical engine kits is that its up to you to monitor EGT so that you don't fry your turbo. I would start cutting back at about 1150.
It will definitely wake up that 5.9.
Dave,
Thanks! That's the kind of info I was looking for. Do you think it is reasonable that I could tow a full size pickup with this set up? Remember, my rig is only 22,000 lbs.
Kent we have had experience with Banks and other "kits" as well for the 5.9. If you do use the Banks system please put in a pyrometer (it measures the exhaust temps) so you dont fry the turbo bearings or cook your oil. We had several 5.9 in Dodge trucks since 1994 and in the beginning before the computer controlled 5.9 in the Dodges, we used a Banks kit to pull our dozers and trackhoes, approx pulled 36,000lb I realize we had more of a load than you will but we also installed one of their pyrometer gauges and watched the temps to stay within heat range. Also get a kit for torque and pulling power and not for "seat of the pants" tire burnout power...
Kerry,
Thanks for the info. The Banks kit for motorhomes comes with a manifold temp gauge. I trust that is a pyrometer.
If you pulled that kind of weight behind a pickup, is it your opinion that I can pull a full size pickup behind my U225?
As long as your brakes and aux braking (both toad and exh brake) are good - and your hitch supports it, if you can get say 280 hp then you will have 28K at the accepted standard hp to weight ratio. Will you be outside the factory limits? Probably. But exceeding limits for towing is really dependent on those issues - hp/torque, brakes and hitch.
I'm 'squeaking' over the limit towing my Tahoe - I have a 5K hitch and a 5800 lb truck. I am using a 10K bar and cables and inspect often.
Lets take a look at this possibility,,,
Start with 230 hp and go to 300 hp
I should take my 450 hp to about 600 hp
Why don't we all run out and take out ISM engines to 600 hp? ;D
I love it when reasoning is overcome by desire.
As usual FWIW
Dave
Kent, I had to out of neccessity pull 35K with my Dodge p/u's (tried to stay away from commercial DOT) finally had to go to a 18wheeler. Braking was my biggest problem most of my trailers had electric brakes. I could take an overpass at 65mph and buy the top be somewhere 50ish range and not be overboard on heat at the turbo. I monitored my temps before turbo and after, and each of those have a different "safe" range.
I pull my F250 4 door diesel truck with my U295 FT, we have a diesel tank with pump and toolbox full of tools and jacks in truck for motorhome or equipment. Braking is no problem since the motorhome is air disc brakes and Allison retard system. When we are in the mountains we don't fill the diesel tank in the truck and if need be my wife will drive the truck till we get on somewhat level ground.
I have a friend that has a U300 with a Detroit and 4spd Allison and he pulls a 8-passenger ford full size van...he has 6 kids though.
The tow rating on my U295 is 10k...what is the tow rating for your U225?
Thanks to both Dave and Kerry,
My hitch is rated at 10,000 so I should be good on that point. I am currently pumping out 165hp at the back wheels. It is supposed to be a 230hp engine. The Banks kit is supposed to add 70hp which would put me a 300hp gross or 210hp at the wheel.
I am leaning toward one of the air brake systems for the toad. That way it should be exactly proportional to my coach. ANY THOUGHTS?
Before proceeding with any of this, I would also take the unit in for an inspection of the Allison and have a low rpm lock-up installed to help the exhaust brake. Right now I have a PAC brake but once the RPMs drop below 1400 the tranny slides into neutral so the PAC brake is not usable at low RPMs.
Kerry, how many miles were you getting out of your 5.9's pulling heavy loads like that. I have 107,000 miles on mine right now. I plan to travel about 20,000 per year once I go full time.
Kent I put an average of 75,000miles on 3 Dodge trucks pulling those loads. 2 were manual engines and the last was computer controlled. NEVER had a problem with the 5.9 Cummins but the transmissions were another issue, in the last truck I changed to a better torque converter for lock-up.
I also am very preventative maintenance on my vehicles ie changing fluids and filters before the recommended intervals.
I currently don't have any added or extra braking for my toad vehicle, but with future towing in different states I'm sure eventually I will have too for their laws. Before you buy added braking for your toad you could try towing it first to see how well braking is...maybe at a shopping center after hours and try 1. just motorhome, 2. motorhome and subaru and 3. motorhome and chevy truck. Record the stopping distances.
Thanks again Kerry. Right now I have no auxiliary braking on the SUB and I can't even tell whether it is back there or not. But it only weights 3300 pounds. I suspect a 5200 pound pickup will be substantially different behind a 22000 pound coach.
I have the M&G braking system and love it.
If the coolant temperature is within thermostatic control (i.e. the opening and closing of the thermostat keep the temperature at its operating temp-- sounds like 185 in your case) you will not see the gauge move.
But, once the heat load of the engine is such that the thermostat is fully open, the thermostat can do nothing else. That is why I say it is out of thermostatic control. So additional heat load will bring the coolant temperature to above thermostatic control-- i.e. overheating.
Note: With newer coaches and those with temperature controlled fans, you will see a little fluctuation, as the temperature at which the fans kick to high speed is purposely a little above that of the thermostats so HP drain is minimized.
Brett
I know it is old topic but I wanted to see if Allison MT 643 (in 1994 U225) can handle extra power from Banks Stinger upgraded 5.9?
Using existing cooling system or beefer one?
I have the 643 in my old foretravel and turned the pump up to around 250 HP that is the max that the 643 is rated for and torque of 640 lbs. I am not familiar with the 5.9 and what it would produce with the Banks Stinger check the numbers and see if it works
Send a PM to a forum member wa_desert_rat. He has a U225 with a 5.9 and a Banks system.
Also, Banks has a very good tech department that will analyze your specific needs and tell you what will work and what to expect.
Banks estimated that the Stinger would lower my operating temps rather than increase them. I never installed the Banks system because I bought my U300 but probably would have if I had kept my U225.
i HAVE THE BANKS STINGER ON MY 350 CUMMINS AND WOULD SUGGEST THAT IN ACTUALLITY IT REDUCES TEMPS ETC WHILE GIVING THE EXTRA BOOST ETC. WELL WORTH THE COST AS i WOULD NOT BE WITHOUT IT, AND HAVING IT NOT WORK DUE TO A BROKEN 12V POWER FEED THIS TRIP IT WAS MISERABLE DRIVING BEFORE i FOUND THE BREAK AND FIXED IT.
JohnH
John,
Did you install the stinger recently? My understanding was that Banks wasn't installing Stingers on ISC engines, but only on mechanical 8.3s. I'd love to have one put on ours.
[quote author=Dave Katsuki link=msg=221824 date=1452195344 My understanding was that Banks wasn't installing Stingers on ISC engines, but only on mechanical 8.3s. I'd love to have one put on ours.[/quote]
The guy that would be able to tell you is an old friend, he knows Banks! Ask for Eric, tell him I said hello.
800.488.3697 Eric's RV Performance Intro page (http://www.ericsrv.com)
Thanks Mike,
I'll give him a call.
Dave, it was put on by P Owner and yes they do not install on this engine now. Reason being the TUNER (which controls the Boost I believe) is not being made anymore so they cannot use it in the Automind computer control that this one needs. I was having a Boost guage problem a while back and spoke to the Tech Dept about it and they gave me some elec' testing to do to see if it was guage or Tuner fault. It turns out there was a break itn the tiny wire from computer to gauge and I found it (in 35ft of length of wire) and repaired it. No mean feat as that wire is only 3 fine strands!! I had bought new guages from them before finding the real problem!
I was told if it was the Tuner then the whole thing was no good as they could not get them anywhere- so no Stinger.
Other engines are ok it seems.
I really do like it and the engine performance with it is amazing, I have driven the coach twice when it was not working ( blown fuse on power input) and it was like dragging another coach behind me.
JohnH
Sounde like I'll have to stick with what I've got for a while, although I would like to get some more boost, since EGT is still higher than normal on long uphill pulls. Much improved with the new turbo, but running at max torque I can get over 1000degF (after turbo ) if I'm not careful, which sounds to me like not enough air.
The banks is obsolete but there are other ways to go about boosting hp. Since you have an electronic engine, what about just running a tuner like this Motorhome R.V. Cummins Engines Fuel Economy Power products (http://heavydieseltuner.com/Cummins_RV.php) ? I have no experience with this particular one only see that it looks like it'll work with your engine.
I've found this to be a very good list of points for optimizing the 8.3 Cummins. While this is slanted towards the mechanical engine, lots of the points discussed apply to the electronic engine as well. Next to last post on page 8.3L cummins power suggestions - Dodge Cummins Diesel Forum (http://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/general-diesel-discussion/16167-8-3l-cummins-power-suggestions.html)
Chuck, great find and thanks for this info. I will keep the link just in case!!!
Sounds like it would work and also looks like they will answer any questions before buying.
JohnH
Here are a bunch of options for remapping/chipping your engine. Any electronic engine can be easily modified. Adding fuel is the easiest way with exhaust mods and a larger turbo icing on the cake. Some plug into the diagnostic port, others piggy back into the ECU connectors. You have to make sure you have enough radiator to handle the increased heat in the summer months.
Many times these are advertised as "marine" units as they may not be EPA or CARB (California) legal.
Almost any electronic engines from Cummins, CATs and all of our DDEC 6V-92TA Detroits can be fitted. Looks like some have a nice digital readout to boot.
Amazon.com: Edge 85400 CTS2 Diesel Evolution Programmer: Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XM16N4G/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_3?pf_rd_p=1944687522&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B001T8J4YK&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=18ZKKNQADZY62XQ9ENMC)
POWERBOX (http://pittsburghpower.com/powerbox)
TuningBox Chip tuning :: Diesel performance tuning :: ECU remapping chiptuning (http://www.tuningbox.com/en/home.htm)
Cummins Programmer: Performance Chips | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/bhp/cummins-programmer)
Chip Tuning Software | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/bhp/chip-tuning-software)
Pierce
If you took your ISM up to 600HP you would still be 150HP less than a factory calibration of that engine...
In marine trim the 11L engines can be had up to 750HP, the 8.3L up to 600HP, the 5.9L engines up to 480HP. What do all of these engines have in common? Virtually unlimited cooling.
With proper gauges and a carefully calibrated nut behind the wheel there would be no issues with a 600HP M11/ISM in a motorhome application. You would need to pay attention to EGT's and be willing to back off on a long pull in hot weather. But having the horsepower available for a quick pass when desired would not shorten the life of the engine enough to make a difference. Hell the B50 life of the M11 family is 800,000 miles, even if you cut that in half its going to outlive the majority of the motorhomes on the road.
Looks like most of those are for trucks with OBDII engine connections. Think I may start by going to a larger turbo and see if more boost gets the EGT down some. Then maybe look at chipping.
There are dozens of adapters from your electronic engine diagnostic port to OBD 2 connector. With our Detroit, we have a 12 pin DDL connector but the adapter instantly connects the OBD 2 cable for chipping/remapping/diagnostics.
See adapter images at: 12 pin ddl connector obd 2 adapters image - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?q=12+pin+ddl+connector+obd+2+adapters+image&espv=2&biw=1893&bih=958&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjok7K11qnKAhXMRCYKHeEtCdIQsAQIGw)
Dave,
It's been my experience that adding a larger turbo without adding fuel will bring down the EGT while adding a little more power. When we started installing turbos on non-turbo Mercedes diesels, we dropped the 0-60/quarter mile time by only about 3 or 4 seconds with lower EGTs. 0-60 had been about 20 seconds. The turbo brought it down to 17 seconds or so but adding fuel brought it to under 10 seconds, a huge improvement. This was with only about 7 psi boost.
If you have a laptop, a less than $20 investment in a borescope will allow you to inspect your muffler's interior for restrictions. They have a USB powered LED so no additional lighting is necessary. The HD models give a more detailed video or still image.
borescope | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xborescope.TRS0&_nkw=borescope&_sacat=0)
Attached is an image of a Lycoming aircraft muffler damage taken with just an iPhone down the exhaust pipe.
EGT readings a lower elevations may be lower than temps up at altitude. If already close to max temperature, they may reach past recommended limits. A larger turbo will bring the EGT down by increasing the difference between the first number and the second in the air fuel ratio. At higher altitudes, dropping a gear and running more RPMs will be easier on the engine by flowing more air through the engine, thus dropping EGTs. See banks good article at: Banks Power | Why EGT is Important (http://www.bankspower.com/techarticles/show/25-why-egt-is-important) To me, the highlight of Bank's write up is the cumulative damage that can occur over time.
Pierce
Didn't know about the adapters from J1587/J1939 to OBDII ! Was thinking I might have to build one...
And your experience with a larger turbo matches what I would expect it to do for EGT. Current max boost on our ISC is ~21-22 lbs (measured both from a direct gauge, and by VMSpc), and that's supposed to be within specs, but the higher EGT at torque peak makes me think there should be more air. The resonator is new and straight through, so no restriction there.
When the EGT goes above ~900-1000 (after turbo) I back off or downshift or both, but it would be nice to have more power up to cooling system limits. I've been reluctant to drill the manifold in front of the turbo for the thermocouple, since I had to replace a cracked exhaust manifold about 5 years ago, and I'm a little nervous about another cracking opportunity.
Dave,
They make adapters for almost any possible situation. I can't remember the transition year (think it's 1999) but you will probably use either a 6 or 9 pin Deutsch connector. The prices really vary with the manufacturer's adapters costing quite a bit but aftermarket suppliers are much more reasonable. Here is an adapter for 6 pin Detach to OBD II at about $34 delivered. 9 pin also available or even a pigtail with both so you can't go wrong.
http://www.eBay.com/item/2-16Pinto's1587-J1708-6Pundits-/321583475603
I know you are one of the sharper guys around and already checked your air cleaner but for newbies, high exhaust temps can also be associated with a restricted intake. A combination of a restricted air cleaner, high elevation, high ambient, high engine temp and low RPM makes for high EGT.
Appreciate your concern for drilling the exhaust manifold after having to replace it once. You might think about getting several opinions from turbo rebuilders, Cummins factory shops or aftermarket suppliers. Perhaps using an aircraft type EGT clamp on the exhaust pipe just after the exhaust manifold might fill the bill and still give accurate EGT readings.
Here are images of the aircraft type clamps. Ez, 5 minute installation. aircraft egt clamp - Google Search (http://www.google.com/search?q=aircraft+egt+clamp&espv=2&biw=1893&bih=958&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZ0Yrxm6zKAhXEPCYKHTiUCmAQsAQIGw)
Pierce
Here is what an aircraft EGT exhaust clamp/probe looks like installed. Note, there is one for each cylinder.
Pierce
It's no secret, correct turbo & proper fuel delivery the puppy will scat proper.