Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: ncaabbfan on October 29, 2010, 12:58:58 pm
Title: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: ncaabbfan on October 29, 2010, 12:58:58 pm
As I am starting to learn about our new-to-us U270, I have some very dumb questions:
1. We need to have an electrical circuit installed in our garage so we can plug our U270 in when it is at our house. What size/rating circuit do you recommend we have installed? I presume we will need the ability to operate the heating system when we have it at the house during the winter time.
2. When I connect the U270 to an external power source (garage outlet or campsite), do I need to place any switches or breakers in the U270 in any specific positon before I plug into the outlet?
3. After it is plugged into the outlet (at home or a campsite), what should I check to ensure the electrical supply is connected and working properly?
4. After it is plugged into the outlet (at home or a campsite), how do I verify the battery set(s) are being charged properly?
Thank you very much.
Morris
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Kent Speers on October 29, 2010, 01:45:20 pm
Morris, I can help with some of your questions. I experienced the same dilemma when I bought my first Motorhome three years ago.
1. Part of your decision on the type of circuit you have installed is how far from the house will the coach be? Which cable will reach the house from that distance? If you can get the coach close enough to the house for the 50 amp, yellow cable to reach then I would recommend having a 50 amp circuit installed, presuming you have enough capacity in you house electrical service box.
If you need to run electricity farther than you 50 amp cable will reach, then put in a 30 amp service.
If you can only put in a 20 amp service due to a capacity problem you will be very limited in what appliances can be used in the motorhome. Remember when calculating the amperage draw for a motorhome, you must include the draw from the inverter/charger. You will probably be able to run the Aqua Hot or Furnace but not electric heat.
Remeber to have the electrician install a socket that match the RV cables you will use. RV plugs are not the same as standard residential sockets.
2. When connecting to an external power source or using the generator, if everything is working properly in the coach wiring the connection to power is automatic. You will have at least one automatic transfer switch, usually two, that take care of any changes in the source of the electricity.
3. Every Foretravel I have seen has a cream colored polarity tester box either in the utility bay where you plug in shore power or in the adjacent bay. It is plugged into a standard electrical outlet. If only the green led is lit, then you are getting properly grounded power. If you get any other lights glowing, move to a new power source. It can be dangerous if the polarity or the ground are not properly wired and it does happen from time to time in camp grounds.
4. I am not familiar with your specific coach but you will have some video screen in the cockpit that will show house DC voltage along with other performance information.
I am sending you a PM with my phone number for further questions.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: ncaabbfan on October 29, 2010, 02:28:23 pm
Morris, I can help with some of your questions. I experienced the same dilemma when I bought my first Motorhome three years ago.
1. Part of your decision on the type of circuit you have installed is how far from the house will the coach be? Which cable will reach the house from that distance? If you can get the coach close enough to the house for the 50 amp, yellow cable to reach then I would recommend having a 50 amp circuit installed, presuming you have enough capacity in you house electrical service box.
If you need to run electricity farther than you 50 amp cable will reach, then put in a 30 amp service.
If you can only put in a 20 amp service due to a capacity problem you will be very limited in what appliances can be used in the motorhome. Remember when calculating the amperage draw for a motorhome, you must include the draw from the inverter/charger. You will probably be able to run the Aqua Hot or Furnace but not electric heat.
Remeber to have the electrician install a socket that match the RV cables you will use. RV plugs are not the same as standard residential sockets.
1. Are 2 legs of this circuit 110V (220 V)? I am presuming 2 legs are 110 V each and a ground to make up the 3 wire connection. And if it is a 4 wire connection, I presume the additional wire is a neutral. Am I right or wrong?
2. If I understand correctly, then I presume I need a dual breaker or 2 individual breakers (for the two hot legs) that are rated for 50 amps or 30 amps. Am I correct?
Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Peter & Beth on October 29, 2010, 03:01:32 pm
Morris, If all you want to achieve is having enough power to keep the batteries charged, a 50 amp service is overkill. If, on the other hand, you want to have the coach while parked at home available for "living", then 50 amp might be better if you need to run both roof A/C's. A 50 amp service at home may run into some $$$ as you may not have enough incoming service to your Main.
Take a look at the link I've attached, and you'll be able to learn some of the details of each 30 and 50 amp installations:
Morris, If all you want to achieve is having enough power to keep the batteries charged, a 50 amp service is overkill. If, on the other hand, you want to have the coach while parked at home available for "living", then 50 amp might be better if you need to run both roof A/C's. A 50 amp service at home may run into some $$$ as you may not have enough incoming service to your Main.
Take a look at the link I've attached, and you'll be able to learn some of the details of each 30 and 50 amp installations:
My primary needs are to keep the batteries charged plus for interior lighting and 110 v power inside the coach so we can load it as well as any small projects that might require a 110 v power tool (drill or something similar).
Will the 30 amp circuit provide sufficient power for these purposes?
I am also concerned that my house incoming power box might not have sufficient capacity for the 50 amp circuit. And other than totalling up the breaker ratings for each breaker in the panel, I do not know how to determine what our current usage vs. capacity is.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Michelle on October 29, 2010, 03:52:22 pm
1. Are 2 legs of this circuit 110V (220 V)? I am presuming 2 legs are 110 V each and a ground to make up the 3 wire connection. And if it is a 4 wire connection, I presume the additional wire is a neutral. Am I right or wrong?
2. If I understand correctly, then I presume I need a dual breaker or 2 individual breakers (for the two hot legs) that are rated for 50 amps or 30 amps. Am I correct?
Morris,
A 30 amp RV hookup is 120V. Single breaker. 1 hot, 1 neutral, 1 ground connection. This is the one that REALLY confuses some residential electricians, because they think you want a 30 amp 220V, like a clothes dryer or oven, but you really need 30 amp 120V. Be sure the electrician understands and that the outlet is specifically for an RV. It should be on it's own breaker. We shut the breaker off before plugging in the coach and also before unplugging it. We have a 30 amp hookup at our home.
A 50 amp RV hookup is basically a 240V. 1 leg each of 50 amp 120, a common neutral, and ground. It requires a double breaker (and a lot more house main capacity).
The link Peter provided has excellent information that describes all this, too.
You should be fine with a 30 amp hookup. 50 amp lets you run multiple heavy-use appliances at the same time. As long as you only run one (such as one a/c, the microwave, the dryer, or an Aquahot on electric) you'll be OK on 30 amp.
Michelle
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Peter & Beth on October 29, 2010, 03:56:30 pm
Morris, All I have at home is a 30 amp RV plug, and I have all the power I'll ever use for the tasks you've described. I even run one roof A/C if I need to as there is enough power for running one A/C with a 30 amp service connection. BTW, the 30 amp service is also enough to run the propane furnace, or one of the roof units on heat strip (not recommended for sub-freezing temperatures as the utility bays do not get ducted heat as is provided by the propane furnace).
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: jeff on October 29, 2010, 04:06:38 pm
Morris and Janice,
I have never used anything more than a 110 heavy duty electric cord from my garage to the motor home. Keeps the refrigerator running, tv and satellite if DW is watching "Lost or Dancing with the Stars" and a good football game is on. If I need air conditioning while I am working on something outside I unplug and use the generator. Will also run a small space heater. Use coach heater (mine is propane)if very cold so bays stay safe...I do not have Aqua Hot so do not know the draw for that. Did this for 3 years, when home and never had a problem.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Dave Katsuki on October 29, 2010, 04:11:40 pm
Morris,
Just to add to what Kent and Peter have written: Be very very sure that the electrician sees the connection specs in the link that Peter sent. Especially note that the 30 amp connection is not the same as a dryer outlet (240 V), but is a 115V outlet, where the pins are hot (115v), neutral, and protective ground. I had personal experience plugging into a 240V outlet wired as a 30 amp RV outlet, and needed to repair the transfer box afterward. :-[ You need only one 30 amp breaker for that outlet.
On our 1999 U270, there is a 115V power monitor inside the coach which has lights to verify polarity of connections and voltage monitors for each 115V leg. Nothing in the utility bay on our coach, (although meters there would be nice.)
30 amp power will be fine for keeping the coach charged up and for working in it. We often camp where there are only 30 amp hookups (e.g. state and national parks), and we do fine with only 30 amps, but you do need to watch what is on and not try to run the AC with the microwave or the toaster oven, or else run the generator.
Also strongly recommend that you get a Progressive EMS (electric management system), which will protect you from bad power on the road (or at home...) We have the built-in one, which also has a meter that reads the voltage and current draw on each of the legs, and is very useful when you're on 30 amp power in a campground. Has saved our electrical system twice so far. http://tweetys.com/progressive-industries-surge-protectors.aspx (http://tweetys.com/progressive-industries-surge-protectors.aspx)
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: ncaabbfan on October 29, 2010, 04:14:36 pm
You don't know how much I appreciate the input from everyone. I thank you so very much!!
This information is a big relief to me. I feared I might have to install a 50 amp circuit and I doubt very much if we have sufficient power in our incoming service to add the 50 amp circuit. It sounds like the 30 amp, 120 v circuit will do just fine for what we will need when it is at the house.
I don't really see a need to run both air conditioners at the same time when it is at the house.
I greatly appreciate everyone's help and input!! I am sure I will ask a lot more dumb questions as I start learning how to use everything in this coach.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: jeff on October 29, 2010, 04:18:28 pm
No dumb questions here..Don't know of anyone that has not done something mighty dumb; at one time or another..I could give you a long list of my mistakes....luckily, none of them were when I was driving down the road...Enjoy and learn all you can. It is a great trip
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Michelle on October 29, 2010, 04:28:55 pm
I am sure I will ask a lot more dumb questions as I start learning how to use everything in this coach.
There are no dumb questions - anytime you are trying to learn something you don't know, you're doing the smart thing. And likely someone else has the exact same question, but hasn't asked it.
Heck, we had our coach 6 years before learning there was storage under the middle entry step. We just had to pull hard to open it.
MIchelle
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: jeff on October 29, 2010, 04:51:01 pm
I'll top you Michelle,
After owning our coach for three years the weeks we finally were upgrading to another coach we found out we had a telescoping steering wheel...damn, all those miles being uncomfortable...KENT SPEERS, Also.....
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: ncaabbfan on October 29, 2010, 04:56:38 pm
We often camp where there are only 30 amp hookups (e.g. state and national parks), and we do fine with only 30 amps, but you do need to watch what is on and not try to run the AC with the microwave or the toaster oven, or else run the generator.
Is it safe to run the generator set and provide power while also plugged into 30 amp or 50 amp shore power? (I presumed only 1 power source should be supplying power to the electrical system at one time due to the potential of having the power from one source out of phase with power from the second source.)
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: jeff on October 29, 2010, 05:35:45 pm
Unplug from shore power before starting generator is best..
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Tim Fiedler on October 29, 2010, 05:47:59 pm
How cols will your U-270 get in winter? Propane consumption might be an issue - electric space heaters are good for coach - a small one will heat all your coach efficiently, but the bays are another story. Maybe someone knows if a U-270 has a heat thermostat in the bays?
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Barry Beam on October 29, 2010, 05:53:56 pm
Quote
Is it safe to run the generator set and provide power while also plugged into 30 amp or 50 amp shore power? (I presumed only 1 power source should be supplying power to the electrical system at one time due to the potential of having the power from one source out of phase with power from the second source.)
White Clip in Center of transfer relay switch prevents the Generator from being on at the same as Shore Power. But it is good practice to have only one source of power at one time.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Peter & Beth on October 29, 2010, 05:59:43 pm
How cold will your U-270 get in winter? Propane consumption might be an issue - electric space heaters are good for coach - a small one will heat all your coach efficiently, but the bays are another story. Maybe someone knows if a U-270 has a heat thermostat in the bays?
I've never looked for a thermostat in the bays, but my guess is that U270 does not have one. I'm not at the coach, so I can't go look. But, in much work done in those areas, I've never seen one in either side of the utility bays.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Paul Smith on October 29, 2010, 06:21:36 pm
We have our 1999 40ft U320 in storage connected to a 20 amp 120v outlet.
We have Aqua-Hot electric heat running to keep the coach at 68. Seems to be working.
But this is in the SF Bay Area and freezing temps are uncommon. 40's are common n the winter. ___
best, paul "Thriving not surviving" <(*¿*)> Some once thought a million chimps would in time type great old works of literature Now that we have the Internet we know that not to be true.......
Quote
> If you can only put in a 20 amp service due to a capacity problem you will be very limited in what appliances can be used in the motorhome. Remember when calculating the amperage draw for a motorhome, you must include the draw from the inverter/charger. You will probably be able to run the Aqua Hot or Furnace but not electric heat.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: John S on October 29, 2010, 06:49:45 pm
Finally, before you plug in test the plug yourself. I check each plug prior to using the pedestal at a campground. You need to check the plug at home one time prior to using it. Better safe than sorry. A reducer and a simple tester you plug into a 110 plug will check your polarity and your multi meter can check voltage. You want to see a 110-126 or so, you do not want anything with a 2 in the hundreds column.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on October 29, 2010, 08:30:27 pm
Here in Georgia hard freezes are rare and I will probably be in Florida anyway. I keep a 40 watt bulb plugged in in the left water bay and another one behind the water heater on the right side. I see temps sometimes in the 60's with these bulbs. I also have a remote thermometer on the dash so I can track bay temps in cold weather .
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on October 29, 2010, 09:29:50 pm
....................................Maybe someone knows if a U-270 has a heat thermostat in the bays?
U270's do not have thermostats in the bays. The Utility bay (1), the water pump bay (1) and the "Through" storage bay (2) have a total of (4) ducts off of the propane furnace. If the coach is kept above 45 degrees using the propane furnace from the LR wall thermostat, the duct sizes and routing and insulation of the bays are such that the temperature will be slightly higher than 45 degrees in the bays, IF you insulate the cord/sewer/aux cable entry "mini" hatch hole.
Finally, before you plug in test the plug yourself. I check each plug prior to using the pedestal at a campground. You need to check the plug at home one time prior to using it. Better safe than sorry. A reducer and a simple tester you plug into a 110 plug will check your polarity and your multi meter can check voltage. You want to see a 110-126 or so, you do not want anything with a 2 in the hundreds column.
John, you need to have 220 to 240 volts between the two 115 volt, 50 amp blades. If you do not, your power pole is not correctly wired. I like Peter's reference and it is a good one to copy and keep handy for use. I've found a number of campground personnel that do not have a clue. Even discovered an open neutral in one of the TN RV buildings!
Is it safe to run the generator set and provide power while also plugged into 30 amp or 50 amp shore power? (I presumed only 1 power source should be supplying power to the electrical system at one time due to the potential of having the power from one source out of phase with power from the second source.)
White Clip in Center of transfer relay switch prevents the Generator from being on at the same as Shore Power. But it is good practice to have only one source of power at one time.
FT Tampa had my transfer switch malfunction and fail, before our (new) coach was ever delivered. Of course they replaced it, but I heartily agree with Barry's advice. Treat every opportunity to be conservative with power source changes as an opportunity to preserve the longevity of your coach. For example:
Always Open the shore power breaker (or pull the shore power plug) before starting your generator.
Always meter test unknown shore power before plugging into it, even if you have an automatic Electrical Monitoring System (EMS) or equivalent.
As Dave K recommended, if you don't have one, invest in a good EMS. It has saved us numerous times in totally unpredictable, unanticipated ways.
Wire your EMS to protect your own generated power as well as incoming shore power faults. I've had generator output problems that would have caused very expensive damage long before I ever knew I had a problem.
Always Stop your generator before plugging into shore power.
Always unload all of your large loads (AC's, microwave, hair dryer, toaster, resistive heaters, etc.) before you stop a running generator or open the shore power breaker.
Always open the shore power breaker before plugging into the shore power receptacle or unplugging from it.
Always keep your shore power plug blades clean and lightly coated w/dielectric grease and don't drop the plug in the dirt or grass.
Some people even turn off their inverter before starting/stopping their generator or before bringing shore power on/off. I don't because the inverter sensing circuitry is specifically designed to seamlessly handle these transitions and I'm lazy (as in I don't like reprogramming clocks that don't have memory backup), but it would be ultra conservative to follow their example.
IMHO, Best Regards, Neal
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Lewis Anderson on November 01, 2010, 10:00:32 pm
There is much to learn and no question is a dumb question.
I think you asked how much cold outside before problems in the bays (water in pipes freezing and so on). During our camphost days and now parked at 8,000 feet at home, we have found that the bays and coach are okay without any heat during the night down to 20 degrees.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: ncaabbfan on November 02, 2010, 10:37:07 am
....................................Maybe someone knows if a U-270 has a heat thermostat in the bays?
Wire your EMS to protect your own generated power as well as incoming shore power faults. I've had generator output problems that would have caused very expensive damage long before I ever knew I had a problem
How can I determine where and how to wire in the EMS after we purchase it?
Thank you very much. [/list]
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Barry Beam on November 02, 2010, 10:44:47 am
Quote
How can I determine where and how to wire in the EMS
Morris, Don Hay shows how he wired it in his 1992 GV http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/progressive_ems.htm (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/progressive_ems.htm)
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: George Stoltz on November 02, 2010, 10:53:54 am
Barry,
Was there any resolution to this problem?
Once finished with that I pulled the battery cover off and was dismayed to see that my two new MK gel batteries were already (4 weeks) showing some side wall bulging, which means that they are overcharging. I told the mechanics that I was reading too high coach battery voltage from the Audit, but they said the Audit normally reads 0.5 V higher than the charge voltage at the batteries.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: ncaabbfan on November 02, 2010, 11:04:48 am
How can I determine where and how to wire in the EMS
Morris, Don Hay shows how he wired it in his 1992 GV http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/progressive_ems.htm (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/progressive_ems.htm)
Thank you very much. As soon as I can spend some time on the MH, I will start planning out how I will do this installation.
I want to thank everyone very much for the assistance.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Michelle on November 02, 2010, 11:14:06 am
Barry (of Barry and Cindy) has a neat installation that protects for both shore and generator power.
If doing a hardwire model EMS it would be something to consider.
Michelle
Thank you very much. This is helping to educate me. I need to see exactly what the TRC Surge Guard unit actually is and then see if I need to install an EMS. If I need to install the EMS, this information is very beneficial to me.
Thank you very much again and thank you very much to all the other comments/input. You are helping me very much.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on November 02, 2010, 12:12:53 pm
Morris, Barry Leavitt and I both wired our EMS 50 amp units to protect against shore power and diesel generator faults (which also gives full RMS current, voltage & frequency readout and "most recent fault" information on each of the two power legs. The EMS units come with detailed instructions that are well written and the Progressive Industries Owner and staff are extremely helpful as well as very customer oriented. They have a widely known 24/7/365 technical support philosophy. Their stated warranty is three years, but I have seen them replace much older units at FMCA Trade booths. If you have questions beyond Barry's write-up and our pictures, please feel free to PM (Private e-Mail) me and I'll be happy to assist you in any way that I can. Neal
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: ncaabbfan on November 02, 2010, 01:36:37 pm
Morris, Barry Leavitt and I both wired our EMS 50 amp units to protect against shore power and diesel generator faults (which also gives full RMS current, voltage & frequency readout and "most recent fault" information on each of the two power legs. The EMS units come with detailed instructions that are well written and the Progressive Industries Owner and staff are extremely helpful as well as very customer oriented. They have a widely known 24/7/365 technical support philosophy. Their stated warranty is three years, but I have seen them replace much older units at FMCA Trade booths. If you have questions beyond Barry's write-up and our pictures, please feel free to PM (Private e-Mail) me and I'll be happy to assist you in any way that I can. Neal
As soon as I am back at our MH, I will get as much information as I can about the TRC Surge Guard unit to see exactly what it is. If it does not do something similar to the EMS unit, I am sure I will need your guidance on the installation. I am just now learning about our MH and I am sure I will need input from the experts here to do things right and safely. I am hoping the transfer switches on our MH are in the compartment under the bed as was described by Brad Slaughter and Barry. Thank you very much for everything.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Dave Katsuki on November 04, 2010, 05:42:22 am
I installed the Progressive EMS in the leg from shore power to the transfer switch, since my motivating experience for the initial install was a 30 amp circuit that supplied 220V like a dryer outlet, and fried one of the transfer switch contactors (relays). However that doesn't protect against generator faults, and you don't have monitoring of generator power usage by the Progressive, although I do get gen freq and voltage output readout from the Xantrex monitor panel. For full protection of downstream equipment, probably better to use Barry's install position and plan on sacrificing the transfer switch if bad shore power, but that would leave you without power until fixed.
I wonder how often the gen produces really bad power?
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Mike Baldacchino on November 04, 2010, 07:31:08 am
I stuck mine in the circuit under the bed with only adding a set of short wires. I just mounted the small panel in the service panel by the shore panel.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: ncaabbfan on November 06, 2010, 08:14:49 pm
Ok, when I was at the MH today, I did some research on various things. One thing I checked out was the TRC Surge Protector. It is catalog number 44740RV; 120/240 VAC, 60 HZ; 30 Amp; 7200 watts max. It shows it as a Portable Ground Fault Equipment Protection Circuit Interrupter.
So it does not look like it is a parallel to the EMS. Guess I need to start saving the pennies for an EMS.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Kent Speers on November 06, 2010, 09:24:07 pm
Morris, I am really surprized that it is a 30AMP. However, the only time I mess with getting the very heavy 50 AMP cord out is in the heat of the summer or very cold winter. If you are not going to run both AC untis or if you don't run multiple electric radiant heaters in the winter, 30 AMP power works fine and the power cord is much easier to handle. You nay not need to upgarde for 50 AMPs for quite some time. Jeff and Carol and I were running our coaches without any EMS or Surge Protector for three years without any problems.
The main reason I ordered one now is to protect the new and very expensive 3000 watt Xantrex inverter in my New 2 Me U300.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: ncaabbfan on November 06, 2010, 09:44:33 pm
Morris, I am really surprized that it is a 30AMP. However, the only time I mess with getting the very heavy 50 AMP cord out is in the heat of the summer or very cold winter. If you are not going to run both AC untis or if you don't run multiple electric radiant heaters in the winter, 30 AMP power works fine and the power cord is much easier to handle. You nay not need to upgarde for 50 AMPs for quite some time. Jeff and Carol and I were running our coaches without any EMS or Surge Protector for three years without any problems.
The main reason I ordered one now is to protect the new and very expensive 3000 watt Xantrex inverter in my New 2 Me U300.
Yes, I was surprised it was 30 Amps...but it is ....
I do think I will get a good volt meter so I can check the power before I plug it into the coach.
Does the power quality change much after you have plugged into the coach?
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Michelle on November 06, 2010, 10:17:27 pm
Does the power quality change much after you have plugged into the coach?
It certainly can, depending upon the quality of the wiring, the gauge of the wire, and how crowded the park is.
We have particular issues when we travel in New England. Most of the parks are older. While some now have 50 amp, not all of those have made the infrastructure improvements to really support it. Case in point, the park we've workamped at was originally built for 20 amp and has aluminum wiring. Boxes and power distribution panels were upgraded at one point, but the wiring is still questionable. Even power managing on 30 amp (running only 1 major load at any time) we had to unplug and run the genset one weekend when the park got crowded and a couple of older, somewhat home-made/home-modified rigs were on site. Our Surge Guard and our coach Power Line Monitor both reported voltage on ground while one of these rigs was on site. (the 50 amp Surge Guard plugged into 50 amp service would not have passed power in that case; we were "adapted" into 30 amp so it only gave a warning light in that application).
One of the primary concerns in these situations is low voltage - it can damage your A/Cs. A Surge Guard or Progressive EMS will cut the power to the coach if it dips too low.
Michelle
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: ncaabbfan on November 06, 2010, 10:27:53 pm
Does the power quality change much after you have plugged into the coach?
It certainly can, depending upon the quality of the wiring, the gauge of the wire, and how crowded the park is.
We have particular issues when we travel in New England. Most of the parks are older. While some now have 50 amp, not all of those have made the infrastructure improvements to really support it. Case in point, the park we've workamped at was originally built for 20 amp and has aluminum wiring. Boxes and power distribution panels were upgraded at one point, but the wiring is still questionable. Even power managing on 30 amp (running only 1 major load at any time) we had to unplug and run the genset one weekend when the park got crowded and a couple of older, somewhat home-made/home-modified rigs were on site. Our Surge Guard and our coach Power Line Monitor both reported voltage on ground while one of these rigs was on site. (the 50 amp Surge Guard plugged into 50 amp service would not have passed power in that case; we were "adapted" into 30 amp so it only gave a warning light in that application).
One of the primary concerns in these situations is low voltage - it can damage your A/Cs. A Surge Guard or Progressive EMS will cut the power to the coach if it dips too low.
Michelle
Thank you very much for your comments and experiences. It does sound like I need to make the investment. I know several of the people here have wired one in permanently instead of using the portable unit. If I recall correctly, you have the portable unit. What are your thoughts on the portable 50 amp unit vs. wiring in the permanent unit?
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Barry & Cindy on November 06, 2010, 10:31:12 pm
RE: 30 AMP power works fine and the power cord is much easier to handle... the only time I mess with getting the very heavy 50 AMP cord... Jeff and Carol and I were running our coaches without any EMS or Surge Protector for three years without any problems. reason I ordered one now is to protect the new and very expensive 3000 watt Xantrex inverter
---
Keep in mind that the difference between 30 amp and 50 amp is not 20 amps. The difference is 70 amps.
(The full rating name is 30 amps at 120 volts and 50 amps at 240 volts to give a difference of 70 amps) 30 amp cords may have a bigger voltage drop because the copper wire is smaller than 50 amp cords.
EMS also protects against poorly wired campgrounds or a well-meaning friend or family where 240 volts may be present on a 120 volt outlet, which can destroy all electronics in a moment.
EMS is on guard to prevent low voltage that can quickly appear without warning in the middle of the day or night. Any 120 volt motor can burn out with low voltage, sometimes caused by neighbors in a campground turning on their heaters or air conditioners.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Michelle on November 06, 2010, 10:40:19 pm
If I recall correctly, you have the portable unit. What are your thoughts on the portable 50 amp unit vs. wiring in the permanent unit?
Purely personal preference, personal anxiety level ;)
Hardwired means plugging in more easily, no worries of theft, can be wired to protect against generator voltage issues (although doesn't protect the transfer switch that way). Generally cheaper. Generally longer warranty (at least for Progressive). Progressive unit is also modular for serviceability.
Portable means you also protect the power cord. If catastrophic failure/surge causes surge protector damage, it's away from the coach, not inside the coach where it might damage other things (have seen 1 photo of a fried hardwired unit which did damage to the coach). You *can* get a locking device for the portable units to deter theft, although the current Surge Guard plastic version is pretty pathetic and also won't fit over the yellow-handled power cord replacement plug ends.
There is no wrong answer. It's what gives YOU the greatest peace of mind :)
Michelle
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: ncaabbfan on November 06, 2010, 10:59:43 pm
It seems like the greatest potential for power issues are with the power supplied at the camp ground. Is there much chance of power issues with the power generated by the gen set on the coach? If there is little chance of power issues from the gen set, it would appear I should focus on the best way to protect the coach from power issues from the camp ground power.
Thank you very much. Everyone's comments are of great benefit to me.
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on November 07, 2010, 12:28:43 am
Morris, Diesel Generators have their own "family" of problems. They don't have nice "clean" power that never varies from 60 Hz, 120 VAC regardless of what load you throw on them. They run out of fuel, their fuel filters can starve a running generator, the fuel delivery hoses suck air and the gen set dies (imagine what the voltage and current are doing while this is going on), fans fail or radiators leak and they shut down on overheat, governors start to hunt, injectors malfunction, the "Run/Stop" switch gets turned off while the generator set is still under heavy load, etc. Just all kinds of things that lead to power insults and spikes or droops or long duration sags in the voltage and frequency. They are different than campground power quality issues, but the end result is that often damage occurs to sensitive electronics and AC Motors IF YOU DON'T PROTECT THEM, at all times . My experience has been that either (Park Power or Gen Set) can fail or become poor at the most unforeseen and unpredictable of time(s) and the ratio may be somewhat closer than you think to 50/50. Therefore, I chose to hard wire my EMS to provide shore power AND gen-set power protection at all times. It's been five or six years now and I feel that it has worked well for us and the way that we use our coach. But, Michelle said it best "There is no wrong answer. It's what gives YOU the greatest peace of mind" Best wishes, Neal
Title: Re: Electrical supply for U270
Post by: Barry Beam on November 07, 2010, 08:31:31 am
Quote
Diesel Generators have their own "family" of problems. They don't have nice "clean" power that never varies from 60 Hz, 120 VAC regardless of what load you throw on them. They run out of fuel, their fuel filters can starve a running generator, the fuel delivery hoses suck air and the gen set dies (imagine what the voltage and current are doing while this is going on), fans fail or radiators leak and they shut down on overheat, governors start to hunt, injectors malfunction, the "Run/Stop" switch gets turned off while the generator set is still under heavy load, etc. Just all kinds of things that lead to power insults and spikes or droops or long duration sags in the voltage and frequency. They are different than campground power quality issues, but the end result is that often damage occurs to sensitive electronics and AC Motors IF YOU DON'T PROTECT THEM, at all times . My experience has been that either (Park Power or Gen Set) can fail or become poor at the most unforeseen and unpredictable of time(s) and the ratio may be somewhat closer than you think to 50/50.
Quote
Therefore, I chose to hard wire my EMS to provide shore power AND gen-set power protection at all times. It's been five or six years now and I feel that it has worked well for us and the way that we use our coach.
If you hard wire it to protect both shore and gen power, consider a way to bypass the EMS in case it goes bad and then you will have no power from either. Planning for a heavy jumper cord that can replace the EMS if it goes bad would be prudent.