The owner describes how a defective radiator may have been the cause of this fire. Worth a read! The culprit appears to have been the side mounted radiator that was blowing antifreeze on a hot engine.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: George Stoltz on November 07, 2010, 10:28:02 pm
George,
This is a very important topic. Fire safety and a plan of action are essentials in my opinion. Right now all we have are the fire safety tools in the form of a foam fire suppression extinguisher mounted in the engine compartment and secured to the plywood under the bed.
We don't have a "survival kit" packed by the front door, but we will get one soon. Both Sandy and I know that in case of fire, we grab the dog and get out as fast as possible.
The article reinforces what Mac the Fire Guy teaches --we don't have much time to get out and away from a fire.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: PatC on November 07, 2010, 10:39:11 pm
I'm thinking a side mounted radiator blowing hydraulic fluid all over the engine would be more common, or a broken fuel hose. The only engine fire I have ever had heated up a radiator hose which blew and the coolant put the fire out. It was on a Chevy Vega which I would have loved to watch burn. Cost me the price of a wiring harness and labor for installation. Yes, it could happen in a Foretravel. It could happen in any diesel pusher or motorhome. But you can do as others around here have done. A engine compartment mounted halon fire suppression system. George Stoltz has installed a fire suppresssion system in his Foretravel, both engine compartment and refrigerator compartment. I don't know if his is foam or halon. I am planning on installing a halon system in mine. Am sure others have installed them in theirs. I prefer halon because if you use dry chemical or foam, the clean up is extensive and most who have been thru it say that they should have let it burn. You will find this more documentated on boat forums than the rv forums because there are more boat fires. Fire suppression system is very cheap insurance.
George beat me to the post button!
There are several commericial mobile/marine systems on the market.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: George Stoltz on November 07, 2010, 10:46:50 pm
Pat,
Ours are foam. And I forgot that we also installed a unit in the coil area of the refrigerator.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: Barry Beam on November 07, 2010, 11:45:44 pm
Quote
I prefer halon because if you use dry chemical or foam, the clean up is extensive and most who have been thru it say that they should have let it burn. There are several commericial mobile/marine systems on the market.
1 LB Halon 1211 fire extinguisher. $165.00 http://firefight1.com/prod_ss-30.html (http://firefight1.com/prod_ss-30.html)
Small-format automatic-release fire extinguisher
Automatic release Standard 286F temperature-trigger. Optional 165F temperature trigger if specified.
* Special "Under the hood" design to suppress engine fires. * Stainless steel bottle * Stainless Steel quick disconnect bracket * Pressure gauge * Recommended for use in classic cars, muscle cars and show cars. * Ideal for RV generator & frig. compartments. * Thermal release guard housing bracket * Available w/ 90 deg. mount head on request.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: Steve & Ginny Hill on November 08, 2010, 08:15:26 am
I am ABSOLUTELY no expert on fire suppression, but, it seems it would take a fairly large volume bottle in the engine bay due to all the openings where the suppressant can escape. Let's hear from the experts.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: Rick on November 08, 2010, 08:54:45 am
According to the investigation they posted, the side mounted radiator leaked and sprayed anti-freeze directly onto the turbo and exhaust manifold as the radiator and turbo/exhaust are mounted on the same side as the radiator. On my 1995 U-300SE, the turbo/exhaust is mouinted on the opposite side of the radiator. Not sure how other years/models are configured.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on November 08, 2010, 09:03:37 am
Rick, I was thinking the same thing, I can't picture that any FT has a radiator mounted on the left side so IMHO any CUMMINS would have the turbo/exhaust on the street side. ( Other engines may be configured differently.) This would still cause problems if enough oil/hyd fluid/antifreeze sprayed over the engine. I recall a few years back that a MC Member lost his FT in south GA due to a hydraulic leak/fire, can't recall his name. I also wonder if due to the amount of air being circulated and open spaces if an Extinguisher system could control a major fire ? Hope no one finds out. AND.... Prevention is always better than a bad experience.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: Gerry Vicha on November 08, 2010, 11:53:30 am
According to the investigation they posted, the side mounted radiator leaked and sprayed antifreeze directly onto the turbo and exhaust manifold as the radiator and turbo/exhaust are mounted on the same side as the radiator. On my 1995 U-300SE, the turbo/exhaust is mouinted on the opposite side of the radiator. Not sure how other years/models are configured.
"OPINION" After 38 + years in the Fire Service, and responding to hundreds of vehicle fires, I have never seen antifreeze/coolant burn, "both are none combustible". Many times steam appears to be smoke. With that said, the unit may have had a ruptured hydraulic motor line, like the ones used to power our side mounted radiator fan, and that oil based fluid spraying onto the turbo, exhaust manifold, or exhaust pipe would ignite. also some turbos have exterior oil supply lines that could wear and rupture, Injector fuel pump supply or return lines could leak. Any combustible fluid, when transformed from a liquid to a spray or vapor becomes much more sensitive to heat and the ignition temperature is achieved much faster.
My concern when I got my coach was the amount of heat generated by the turbo and the exhaust system running to and from the turbo. Turbos constantly run at 600 to 1000 degrees, and occasionally higher on long pulls. This degree of constant heat has the ability to dry out (Lower the ignition temperature) of surrounding materials. After some research I decided to wrap both the turbo and the exhaust system with a 2000 degree ceramic thermo blanket, and to re-insulate the compartment under the bed and line that with sheet aluminium. Both have worked well for me, less noise and heat and in the rear bedroom when traveling, and the engine actually runs cooler because the exhaust heat is carried out through the exhaust pipe and not radiating back onto the engine block. Like I said "Works for Me" and I feel safer while driving my coach..... ;)
Addendum: Well, I went back and read the fire report on the above incident, I did not realize that "ethylene glycol,diethylene glycol,sodium 2-hexanoate, and sodium neocanoate" in its purest form could ignite. "both are none combustible" So I have to say that "Antifreeze " is flammable, however I have never seen a mixture from a vehicle burn.. Sorry for the miss-statement.... :-[
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: Barry Beam on November 08, 2010, 11:55:55 am
Quote
It seems it would take a fairly large volume bottle in the engine bay due to all the openings where the suppressant can escape. Let's hear from the experts.
After talking to Ralph at Performance Fire Suppression today he said you would need 3 liter AFFF foam for the Engine Compartment "SS300". http://firefight1.com/upload/prod1.php?pk=9#qvc (http://firefight1.com/upload/prod1.php?pk=9#qvc)
2 liter AFFF Foam for the Gen compartment "SS200" 1 liter "Halon" for the refer compartment "SS30"
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: PatC on November 08, 2010, 02:18:55 pm
According to the investigation they posted, the side mounted radiator leaked and sprayed antifreeze directly onto the turbo and exhaust manifold as the radiator and turbo/exhaust are mounted on the same side as the radiator. On my 1995 U-300SE, the turbo/exhaust is mouinted on the opposite side of the radiator. Not sure how other years/models are configured.
"OPINION" After 38 + years in the Fire Service, and responding to hundreds of vehicle fires, I have never seen antifreeze/coolant burn, "both are none combustible". Many times steam appears to be smoke. With that said, the unit may have had a ruptured hydraulic motor line, like the ones used to power our side mounted radiator fan, and that oil based fluid spraying onto the turbo, exhaust manifold, or exhaust pipe would ignite. ...
Addendum: Well, I went back and read the fire report on the above incident, I did not realize that "ethylene glycol,diethylene glycol,sodium 2-hexanoate, and sodium neocanoate" in its purest form could ignite. "both are none combustible" So I have to say that "Antifreeze " is flammable, however I have never seen a mixture from a vehicle burn.. Sorry for the miss-statement.... :-[
Yep, I always have a hard time questioning the report of a fire investigator, unless it is one I know, or something very obvious.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: PatC on November 08, 2010, 02:54:45 pm
It seems it would take a fairly large volume bottle in the engine bay due to all the openings where the suppressant can escape. Let's hear from the experts.
After talking to Ralph at Performance Fire Suppression today he said you would need 3 liter AFFF foam for the Engine Compartment "SS300". http://firefight1.com/upload/prod1.php?pk=9#qvc (http://firefight1.com/upload/prod1.php?pk=9#qvc)
2 liter AFFF Foam for the Gen compartment "SS200" 1 liter "Halon" for the refer compartment "SS30"
I think that there is something that we have to remember here. The physical properties of the various extingushing agents. "Halon" is a gas and does not freeze until it gets extremely cold, Colder than the temps we could survive. Foam, including the Foam/Wetting agents, is not recommended at temps below 35 f degrees. Many of us in the North travel south when the temp is colder than 35 f, therefore foam would not be a consideration because it would not work. Halon would have no problems at that temperature. Halon doe not require a clean up either.
Also, some foams, are not recommended for use on electrical equipment. And some require clean up with water, which may present problems. The foam / wetting agents that Mac sells are not suppose to have these problems. But I have not seen this particular extingushing agent in use for a engine compartment fire.
No matter which type extingushing agent you use, your system should be inspected by a approved facility every 5 years inless instructed by the manufacturer differently.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: Barry Beam on November 08, 2010, 04:28:59 pm
Quote
Foam, including the Foam/Wetting agents, is not recommended at temps below 35 f degrees. Many of us in the North travel south when the temp is colder than 35 f, therefore foam would not be a consideration because it would not work. Halon would have no problems at that temperature. Halon doe not require a clean up either.
I forgot to mention when I asked him about using Halon in the engine compartment, he said Halon is good for an enclosed non moving area. If you were driving and had an engine fire, he said Halon being a gas, it might not be effective.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: Kent Speers on November 08, 2010, 09:53:18 pm
Have we pretty well determined that Halon would not be the extinguisher of choice? It was always my understanding that Halon simply replaced the oxygen needed for combustion in a closed compartment. It would not work properly in an open compartment with moving air. If Halon won't work, then exactly what should we use.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: Rick on November 09, 2010, 08:57:29 am
While looking around in the engine compartment one day I noticed a sensor wire with wire loom on it and the loom had reached a temperature where it melted and sagged. This was in the area of the exhaust manifold but at least 9" away fron the turbo. I thought that would have been enough so that the turbo was not the cause of the melting. After replacing the loom and having it melt again more troubleshooting revealed that the turbo was the source of the heat so I added a small heat shield near the wire (similar to how they shield a catalytic converter on auto exhaust) and that stopped the melting. As far as I could tell the wire routing was original to the CAT 3176B engine.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: PatC on November 09, 2010, 05:31:53 pm
Have we pretty well determined that Halon would not be the extinguisher of choice? It was always my understanding that Halon simply replaced the oxygen needed for combustion in a closed compartment. It would not work properly in an open compartment with moving air. If Halon won't work, then exactly what should we use.
If you are someplace warm - foam, and if you are some place cold - halon. Halon is required on airplane and seems to work well enough putting out jet engine fires. What does Nascar use, someone around here must know. As I said, for me Foam is not the answer because I've left home at temps close to -20.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: PatC on November 09, 2010, 05:34:55 pm
Second thought about the turbo blanket, any chance that the retained heat could overheat the turbo and cook the bearings?
That is one very good argument for a extemely good Group III semi synthetic oil or a extremely good Group IV full synthetic oil!
The two that come to mind that would meet both Cummins and Cat requirements are Shell RotellaT6 full synthetic and Delvac 1 (Mobil 1's diesel oil). Both appear to be extremely good Group III semi synthetic oils. Under the US marketing laws, the oil companies are allowed to call their highly cracked Group III dino oils synthetic, even though they are less than the european synthetic oils which are required to be Group IV or higher. The US oil refiners refuse to release base oil Group numbers, claiming that they are "trade secrets".
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: Barry Beam on November 09, 2010, 07:37:07 pm
Quote
What does Nascar use, someone around here must know.
Toxicity of Halon vs. the Alternative Agents When looking at the current systems it was found that the amount of Halon 1211 that was being used presented a cardiac sensitization risk to the driver. To show this risk from Halon and how the new agents mitigated it, the case of a NASCAR Cup Series race car used.
A NASCAR Cup Series car has a 100 ft3 drivers compartment and a 17 ft3 trunk (fuel cell compartment). The amount of agent required by NASCAR rule is 5 lb of suppressant in a manually activated system for the driver compartment and a 10 lb automatic (thermal activation) for the fuel cell compartment. Table V gives the resulting concentrations of the agent for this application. As can be seen by the table 5 lbs of Halon 1301 results in a concentration 1. 7 times the its LOAEL. Halon 1211 is even more of a problem. Release of 5 lbs of Halon 1211 in the drivers compartment results in an agent concentration of nearly 12 times the LOAEL. Because of this NASCAR immediately banned the use of Halon for the driver's compartment. The best overall alternative from the testing of all the alternatives was DuPont FE-36™ (HFC- 236fa). These attributes are listed in Table VI.
Table VI, DuPont FE-36™, Best Alternative for On Board Fire Suppression Effective Fire Suppression Zero Ozone Depletion Potential Much Lower human inhalation toxicity than Halon Similar Physical Characteristics to Halon 1211 USA EPA SNAP listed as a Halon Alternative Must Tested Alternative for all Types of Racing
Soon after the release of the SFI 17.1 Standard most of the racing sanctioning bodies that subscribe to SFI standards adopted it. This includes NASCAR, NHRA, SCCA, and many more. Many of the rulebooks specify DuPont FE-36™ as the agent of choice. As of 01 January 2008, Halon cannot be used for any onboard fire suppression system for auto racing.
Title: Re: Fire... could this happen in a Foretravel?
Post by: Chuck Pearson on January 30, 2011, 11:45:20 am
Reminds me of an EAA (Experimental Aviation Association) meeting I was at where the pilot of a home built Defiant twin engine aircraft held up and showed his small in cockpit Halon fire estinguisher. Someone remarked that that tiny thing couldn't possibly put out much of a fire. His reply was "this is not a fire extinguisher, it's a life extinguisher." Toxic stuff.