Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: George Stoltz on November 09, 2010, 10:58:54 am
Title: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: George Stoltz on November 09, 2010, 10:58:54 am
Our new Valtera gate valve is in place. In addition to serving as a "safety" should either the black or gray valves fail, I understand that it can be used to flush the black tank as follows:
1. Empty black tank in the usual manner, but leave black tank valve open, but CLOSE 3rd Valtera valve.
2. Open gray valve and let about 20 or 30 gallons of gray water flow back up into black tank. Quickly close gray tank valve.
3. Open 3rd Valtera valve and gray tank valve and let tanks completely drain. Note: at this point the black valve is still open.
Some questions for those of you who do this:
Have I got the procedure correct? and
How do you make sure you don't allow too much gray water back into the black tank and create an overflow in the toilet?
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Barry Beam on November 09, 2010, 11:09:50 am
Quote
How do you make sure you don't allow too much gray water back into the black tank and create an overflow in the toilet?
When you open the grey tank, the two tanks will end up with an equal level of fluid in each. It cannot overflow.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Mike Baldacchino on November 09, 2010, 11:11:12 am
The top of the tanks are even, so you shouldn't have a problem.
If both tanks are full, I drain the black.
Open the gray and let about a minutes worth of gray into the black, close the gray.
Drain the black, open the gray for 30 secs., close the gray.
Drain the black, open the gray for 15 sec, close the gray.
Drain the black, close the black and then drain the gray.
I have a macerator that acts like another gate valve.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Peter & Beth on November 09, 2010, 11:11:32 am
George, I don't use this system, but here are comments: As the volume of grey water, even if the grey tank is full is 100 gals, I would make sure the black tank is completely empty.
I would let the black tank empty completely after the initial grey tank flush, (grey tank valve closed after initial injection of grey to the black), then close the black tank valve after the black is completely empty. Follow that with the remaining grey tank supply.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Barry Beam on November 09, 2010, 11:17:57 am
Quote
When you open the grey tank, the two tanks will end up with an equal level of fluid in each. It cannot overflow.
If you are dry camping and your grey water is full but not your black tank, you can extend your time before emptying by equalizing the grey into the black tank. Therefore giving you some room in the grey tank.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on November 09, 2010, 11:31:51 am
George,
Lots of different answers and opinions, I'm sure. The following has worked for me for many years without any tank or valve problems. As found; B closed G closed C (common) closed
To dump; (B = Black tank outlet valve, G = Grey tank outlet valve, C = Common outlet Valve, downstream of B & G)
Open C Open B, until Black is empty Leave B open Close C Open G, for at least 30 seconds, to place a lot of grey into the black tank (soapy water inflow stirs up sediment in Black).............. FIRST BACK-FLUSH Close G Open B smartly to re-empty Black Leave B open Close C again Open G, for at least 30 seconds, to again place a lot of grey into the black tank (soapy water inflow stirs up sediment in Black).............SECOND BACK-FLUSH Close G Open B smartly to re-empty Black Leave B open Open G Close B slowly (grey inflow to black will sweep any residuals into black tank, away from the B valve seat) Close G (when fully empty) Close C
The tanks are both lower than the toilet, George. Nothing will flow uphill to the toilet. Tanks just equalize in level.
Neal
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: George Stoltz on November 09, 2010, 11:32:36 am
Mike,
Are you trying to confuse me?
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: amos.harrison on November 09, 2010, 08:08:07 pm
For those of you that haven't added the third valve, I have used the same flushing technique by lifting the sewer hose to form a loop high enough to stop waste flow between black tank enemas. Three enemas per dump have been adequate.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: George Stoltz on November 09, 2010, 08:12:40 pm
When I signed up for the ForeForums I had no idea I would laugh this hard.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: George Stoltz on November 09, 2010, 11:33:59 pm
Now that we have a new third valve in place I have learned just how smoothly and easily this valve works. The existing black and gray valves are much harder to open and close and we always pull with very slow and steady pressure so as not to pull the cable loose.
From time to time we add a bit of vegetable oil to the tanks and that helps a bit. Has anyone come up with an ingenious was to lube the cables. Could Lock Ease be forced inside the cable shaft with the air hose? I am not up for taking apart the utility bay to do this ... but I might give it a shot.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: nitehawk on November 09, 2010, 11:42:12 pm
I have used a cheap hypodermic needle to inject--from an end of the cable--WD40 mixed with graphite powder. I don't remember where I got the needle but I think it was from someplace like Harbor Freight. The solution really frees up the cable after working the cable a few dozen times to get the lube all the way inside the length of the housing.
This is the first time I have ever had to--on this website--try to follow the reasoning on a really crappy subject.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: George Stoltz on November 10, 2010, 02:18:56 am
Nitehawk,
Pure genius. Thank you.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Rudy on November 10, 2010, 08:24:17 am
Injecting straight CorrosionX will also lube the cable, kill any corrosion and will not gum up.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Kevin on November 10, 2010, 09:02:18 am
Consider changing your diet? Maybe more green leafy veggies, plenty of fiber?
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: nitehawk on November 10, 2010, 10:00:19 am
My OLD 1989 Grand Villa has a hose attachment for flushing the black water tank (anybody else?) But, after doing a dump and prior to leaving for a new destination we take all the ice out of the icemaker and pour them down the toilet along with a gallon or two of water. We then, after checking the gauge, either do a "minidump" along with another pressure flush from the hose. This seems to keep all sensors on the BW tank clean.
I realize this method won't work for everyone as the icemaker may not be able to keep up with certain persons on this website, especially when they are "down-south".
We drive to our next destination B4 doing the minidump.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Dick S on November 11, 2010, 12:46:21 pm
I have not seen these cables, but I do worry about them. How difficult is it to replace one if the cable breaks? Are these valves available at most RV supply stores? Does anyone know if a cable luber like those used to lube bike cables would work? (photo)
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Barry Beam on November 11, 2010, 01:22:34 pm
Quote
I have not seen these cables, but I do worry about them. How difficult is it to replace one if the cable breaks?
Remove the Valve 1 Empty and thoroughly flush the black tank. Drain the gray tank to flush away any remaining black material. Close the valve.
2 Place a container underneath the valve to catch drips. Suitable containers include an old coffee can or aluminum baking tray.
3 The valve slides in between two flanges. It is held on with four nuts, bolts and washers. Hold the bolt still with one wrench and turn the nut until all are removed--or vice-versa.
4 Gently pry apart the two flanges and work the valve out. If there is resistance, push on the sewer pipes so that they move away from one another. The valve may drop out, or you may need to twist it gently.
5 The valve has two rubber gaskets, one for each flange. Check to see that they came out with the valve. If not, pull them off the valve. There may be some dripping at this stage. When you remove the old valve, you'll see the adapters. It's okay to use the same adapter fittings, but be sure to use new seals. Lightly coat each seal with a lubricant (I recommend Dow Corning's 111 seal grease) and place them on the lip of each adapter fitting.
Replace the Valve 1 Clean both flanges and apply a light coating of grease to the pipe and the new valve. Place the new gaskets on the new valve.
2 Gently slide the new valve between the flanges. Start the bolts and turn the valve gently to ensure it is seated firmly. Gently tighten, but do not over tighten, the bolts and nuts.
3 Wipe off any remaining mess and discard the rags. Your new valve is ready to use.
# Some valves may have a remote control cable that should be disconnected from the valve before the valve is removed. # If you tighten the bolts too much, this will compress the valve and the slide inside may not move freely. http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/replacing_the_rv_holding_tank_valve.html (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/replacing_the_rv_holding_tank_valve.html)
Quote
Are these valves available at most RV supply stores?
Yes. Camping World carries them as well as most RV supply. http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/product/slide-valve-with-gate-seals/1713 (http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/product/slide-valve-with-gate-seals/1713)
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Dick S on November 11, 2010, 03:05:10 pm
Thank you Barry. I have copied and saved this information. Do you purchase just the regular slide valve and then attach the cable mechanism to it some how or do you get a cable actuated valve?
Do both tanks have a 3" drain? They look the same size to me in your photo.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Barry Beam on November 11, 2010, 03:19:29 pm
Quote
Do you purchase just the regular slide valve
Yes
Quote
Then attach the cable mechanism to it some how?
Yes, Look at the arrows on the photo. The cable screws into the valve and it is secured by 2 screws.
Quote
Do both tanks have a 3" drain? They look the same size to me in your photo.
I believe so.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Dick S on November 11, 2010, 03:39:35 pm
Darn, I missed those arrows the first time... :D
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Barry Beam on November 11, 2010, 03:49:47 pm
Quote
Darn, I missed those arrows the first time...
I added them & re uploaded it to be more descriptive :P :o
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: sgkarnes on November 11, 2010, 07:41:51 pm
I had a hell of a time trying to get to the little bolts to service the valves,,,,,then I saw the two clamps to attach the pipe assembly to the tanks,,,,I loosened these clamps and removed the whole assembly got it out in the open and had a easy time servicing the valves,,,,really easier than it looks....
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: George Stoltz on November 29, 2010, 04:12:12 pm
If you are thinking about adding a third sewer valve, I encourage you to do so ASAP. We had our installed at Xtreme earlier this month and our timing could not have been better. The cable on the gray tank pulled loose from the valve last week. Fortunately, it happened with the valve open.
Had the valve been closed when the cable pulled loose we would be in a real bind. But with this extra valve near the end of the discharge pipe, we can choose when and where to replace both valves.
I have decided that this task is within my pay grade. I am also thinking that while I am craning my neck and wrenching by back inside the utility bay that I might as well install a real back flush connection.
Does anyone have any suggestions for either or both of these tasks?
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Kent Speers on November 29, 2010, 04:44:28 pm
George, before you dump again just make sure the volume of liquid in the gray tank is greater than the volume in the black tank or you could get black sewage in the gray tank. That's usually not a good thing to happen.
I also recently installed the third valve and I agree it was a great idea. It does provide extra safety and a cleaner dumping process but the biggest benefit is back flushing from the Gray tank as described above. I have a tank flush on the black tank but it never flushed the tank as thoroughly as the back flush method using the third valve.
I trust Foretravel has added the third valve as a standard item, if not every coach should have one.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Barry Beam on November 29, 2010, 05:19:21 pm
I have decided that this task is within my pay grade. I am also thinking that while I am craning my neck and wrenching by back inside the utility bay that I might as well install a real back flush connection. Does anyone have any suggestions for either or both of these tasks?
1. Drill 1" hole on side or end of waste holding tank, no more than 2" from the top near center.
2. Insert No-Fuss Flush@ in hole in "top" position as stamped on flusher and drill 1/8" lead holes in tank.
3. Apply clear silicone sealer (do not substitute) completely covering inside of flange (about 3/16" thick). Fasten with #8 - 1/2" stainless steel screws supplied. Let silicone cure, following manufacturers' instructions on tube, before testing.
4. Install vacuum breaker-check valve a minimum of 6" above the highest flood level rim of any fixture connected to the waste holding tank Both valves are directional.
DO NOT connect any other back flow preventers (other than enclosed) to this system. Do not use a water inlet with check valve.
5. Test Flusher system for leaks with a minimum pressure of 40 PSI.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Dave Head on November 30, 2010, 06:28:53 am
I'm not sure what adding an additional vacuum breaker to this system will do other than drastically increase the complexity of the install. I will agree to a backflow preventer. Trying to go 6 inches above the tank?
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: George Stoltz on December 01, 2010, 12:01:31 pm
George, before you dump again just make sure the volume of liquid in the gray tank is greater than the volume in the black tank or you could get black sewage in the gray tank. That's usually not a good thing to happen.
snip
Just found out that some Prevosts combine black and gray in a single tank.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: PatC on December 01, 2010, 12:56:13 pm
No cables to worry about here 8)!! Another benefit of lack of technology. I manually pull a handle ;D! Just have to lub the valve and rod once in a while.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Kent Speers on December 01, 2010, 01:07:26 pm
Pat, I agree, simple is best.
Also, it really helps to dump a 1/2 bottle of vegetable oil into each tank once a year. The oil will lubricate the O rings in the Valtera valve an make it operate much easier.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: John S on December 05, 2010, 02:09:18 am
George, before you dump again just make sure the volume of liquid in the gray tank is greater than the volume in the black tank or you could get black sewage in the gray tank. That's usually not a good thing to happen. snip
So is Foretravel right now. In fact if I were to get a new coach , I would get a single tank with the grey water bypass. In some places you can dump the grey water on the ground and you will have a huge black tank for extended stays. Ere is no issue with smell but do not back up the shower is all.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Michelle on December 05, 2010, 11:23:22 am
I were to get a new coach , I would get a single tank with the grey water bypass. In some places you can dump the grey water on the ground
Surely that isn't the only option with the grey water bypass. Most states we've visited prohibit discharge of grey water on the ground (with hefty fines if you do). Of course, we haven't been to most of the west or central plains states where it may not be an issue.
I would think (hope) it would allow the grey water to bypass the single holding tank and flow out the waste valve and hose, draining into a hookup at a campground as an option, similar to how many of us use our separate tanks.
Otherwise, you're looking at going through a lot of tank chemical.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Barry Beam on December 05, 2010, 11:37:16 am
I were to get a new coach , I would get a single tank with the grey water bypass. In some places you can dump the grey water on the ground
Surely that isn't the only option with the grey water bypass. Most states we've visited prohibit discharge of grey water on the ground (with hefty fines if you do). Of course, we haven't been to most of the west or central plains states where it may not be an issue.
Summary: A compilation of grey water laws, suggested improvements to gray water regulations, legality & greywater policy considerations, sample permits, public health considerations, studies, etc.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Kent Speers on December 27, 2010, 09:23:28 pm
Quote
Once we get settled in the USACOE Salt Springs Recreation Area near Ocala, FL in early January, I will be dismantling our utility bay in order to access and replace the dump valves. At the same time I would like to replace the black ribbed rubber mat in that bay, but I do not know where to buy it or what to use to adhere it in place. Where would you look?
George, last week as we were leaving NAC, when dumping the tanks at camp Foretravel my gray tank valve handle broke off before I could open it. Fortunately, it was at 7:00 AM so they took us into the shop immediately. What we all thought would be an hour or less job took almost 5 hours just to replace the one valve. As it turns out when I added the third valve, it now prevents the left hand fiberglass panel from coming out of the bay. Without the proper cutting tool to get behind the wall, replacing the valves is very difficult. I suppose that you might be able to simply replace the O rings, gaskets and the valve blades by disassembling the valves rather than cutting them off but if you are planning to replace them, figure on a lot of time. As I recall, you too have a third valve near the cap.
Have you tried dumping in a bottle of vegetable oil in the tanks to lubricate the valve?
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: J. D. Stevens on December 27, 2010, 09:35:22 pm
... the third valve, it now prevents the left hand fiberglass panel from coming out of the bay. Without the proper cutting tool to get behind the wall, replacing the valves is very difficult....
Yuck! There must be a better way to add a third valve that doesn't trap the panel behind it. Is there room to add the third valve with "twist on/twist off" fittings?
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: George Stoltz on December 27, 2010, 09:46:52 pm
Kent,
Oh crap. I knew it would not be easy, but I did not think about the new third valve being in the way, but you are so correct. Do you have any idea what the cutting tool is that the factory used.
I hope someone has some suggestions.
Thanks for the heads up. I might have to cut off the new valve, and splice in a new section of sewer pipe after the repair. Aarrggghhhhhhh!
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Two Hams in a Can on December 28, 2010, 09:14:23 am
... the third valve, it now prevents the left hand fiberglass panel from coming out of the bay. Without the proper cutting tool to get behind the wall, replacing the valves is very difficult....
Yuck! There must be a better way to add a third valve that doesn't trap the panel behind it. Is there room to add the third valve with "twist on/twist off" fittings?
I don't have a pic to post; but I bought a Valterra gate valve with a standard bayonet fitting and merely put it on the end of the sewer discharge. I do have to be careful to keep the sewer hose tight when opening the tank valves; and, I can't fully close the bay door when hooked up. When the temperature drops to freezing, I disconnect the sewer hose until needed, then fully close the bay door.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Bill Willett on December 28, 2010, 09:26:52 am
Parts for twist lock valve. 1-t58 valve 1-t1029-2 slip hub 1-t1020 cap All parts are from Valterra. Cut off the old Thetford fitting and replace with the Valterra slip hub, install new valve and cap.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: George Stoltz on December 28, 2010, 09:27:27 am
I don't have a pic to post; but I bought a Valterra gate valve with a standard bayonet fitting and merely put it on the end of the sewer discharge. I do have to be careful to keep the sewer hose tight when opening the tank valves; and, I can't fully close the bay door when hooked up. When the temperature drops to freezing, I disconnect the sewer hose until needed, then fully close the bay door.
If or when a permanently installed sewer valve fails, what will you do with the twist off valve when you need to close the bay door?
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Barry & Cindy on December 28, 2010, 09:37:48 am
Not necessary to cut off the white Thetford fitting. Just start with a Valterra fitting and end with Valterra if that is what you want for hose connection. We use Thetford on both end of our add-on home-made valve.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Kent Speers on December 28, 2010, 10:42:42 am
Oh crap. I knew it would not be easy, but I did not think about the new third valve being in the way, but you are so correct. Do you have any idea what the cutting tool is that the factory used.
I hope someone has some suggestions.
Thanks for the heads up. I might have to cut off the new valve, and splice in a new section of sewer pipe after the repair. Aarrggghhhhhhh!
George, FOT used a very small, air powered sawzall. I used the Black and Decker Handisaw, Amazon.com: Black & Decker CHS6000 6-Volt Handisaw Cordless Powered Hand Saw: (http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-CHS6000-Handisaw-Cordless/dp/B000IZC276). It is about the same size and very handy to carry in the motorhome.
I would suggest that you do a complete replacement as a last resort. If the vegetable oil doesn't work, taking the valve apart, cleaning it and replacing the gaskets and blade should suffice. Then you don't have to cut anything and there is no realignment problem. If the valves are like mine, you just need a 1/4" ratchet and a 3/8" or 7/16" socket and box end wrench. An air ratchet would really help. Just be careful to not over tighten the bolts when reassembling. You can break the valve body easily.
Good Luck!!!
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Barry Beam on December 28, 2010, 10:50:45 am
FOT used a very small, air powered sawzall. I used the Black and Decker Handisaw, Amazon.com: Black & Decker CHS6000 6-Volt Handisaw Cordless Powered Hand Saw: (http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-CHS6000-Handisaw-Cordless/dp/B000IZC276). It is about the same size and very handy to carry in the motorhome.
Kent, Thanks for the link, it always makes it easier than to try and search for what you are describing 8)
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: George Stoltz on December 28, 2010, 10:58:50 am
Oh crap. I knew it would not be easy, but I did not think about the new third valve being in the way, but you are so correct. Do you have any idea what the cutting tool is that the factory used.
I hope someone has some suggestions.
Thanks for the heads up. I might have to cut off the new valve, and splice in a new section of sewer pipe after the repair. Aarrggghhhhhhh!
George, FOT used a very small, air powered sawzall. I used the Black and Decker Handisaw, Amazon.com: Black & Decker CHS6000 6-Volt Handisaw Cordless Powered Hand Saw: (http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-CHS6000-Handisaw-Cordless/dp/B000IZC276). It is about the same size and very handy to carry in the motorhome.
I would suggest that you do a complete replacement as a last resort. If the vegetable oil doesn't work, taking the valve apart, cleaning it and replacing the gaskets and blade should suffice. Then you don't have to cut anything and there is no realignment problem. If the valves are like mine, you just need a 1/4" ratchet and a 3/8" or 7/16" socket and box end wrench. An air ratchet would really help. Just be careful to not over tighten the bolts when reassembling. You can break the valve body easily.
Good Luck!!!
Kent,
Great suggestion. Once I get visual access to the actual valves I can determine if there are any other issues other than a separated cable. I really like your idea of rebuilding the valves and not having to deal with cutting, sealing and alignment issues. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Barry & Cindy on December 28, 2010, 08:55:37 pm
I was at Camping World today and saw that they sell a regular gate valve with black valterra fittings on each end.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: John S on December 29, 2010, 07:33:31 am
I cut mine off just behind the fitting and attached a new valve an then a thetford fitting right to the valve. I can close the door and it is no longer than the original.
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: Michelle on December 29, 2010, 12:16:13 pm
... the third valve, it now prevents the left hand fiberglass panel from coming out of the bay.
There must be a better way to add a third valve that doesn't trap the panel behind it.
Since we're planning to add a third valve, this is all timely discussion. Figuring out how to add the valve yet still allow the bay door to close AND access to what's behind the white panel is going on the list. I know Steve is already working on how to redo the panel with small access doors/ports so he can get to the tank sensors without disassembling that whole compartment. Yet another engineering challenge.
Probably a good one to for someone to mention to MOT as well since they are doing some of the 3rd valve retrofits.
Michelle
Title: Re: Using newly added Valtera gate valve on sewer line
Post by: George Stoltz on December 29, 2010, 02:06:29 pm
I cut mine off just behind the fitting and attached a new valve an then a thetford fitting right to the valve. I can close the door and it is no longer than the original.
John,
That is exactly what Rance did when we had him add the valve at Xtreme.