:o:o I'm new here to the forum but a long time Foretravel Owner, My coach is a 1995 U-300 3176 Cat 4060hd transmission, I want to install the Transmission Retarder Joy Stick and Module on my coach, Does anyone have firsthand experience with the installation process? So far I have found that I need a Y cable part # p28173 (Foretravel part), the short lever switch part # 29521372 and the Resistance Module part # 29506474, Do I need anything else?
Here are some instructions from Barry Leavitt that might help.
http://beamalarm.com/Documents/installing_joy_stick_retarder_control.htm (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/installing_joy_stick_retarder_control.htm)
Thank You for the info, But do you have any knowledge That the Allison part number I have listed are the ones used on Foretravel?
You might want to reach out to Dave Head from the forum with a private message -he is well versed in this change - he actually had the parts bought for his 1995, then found out it had a Jake Brake, not the retarder. That being said - he knows his stuff on this topic.
Do you know for certain you have the HD4060R (4060 with the retarder option)? If you have a 'jake brake' you don't have it. For instance my 95 U320 has the M11 engine with the HD4060 - but no retarder... A jake was standard in 95 and the trans retarder was a $10K option. James Triana can look up your coach and tell you what it was ordered with. You can also check the data plate on the side of the trans.
As Barry showed in the instructions, adding the joystick if you have the retarder is NOT difficult. Your 3 pressure switch system still works the same, also.
Many Thanks Dave,, Good call I have a switch on my consol that reads Retard so I assumed I had a transmission retarder, Well I don't, I made to call to Mark Harvey and he confirmed I have a Jake brake not a retarder...................Thanks To All For Your Responses.. Andrew
No sweat! Same thing happened to me - only I AND Motorhomes of Texas thought there was one. So I spent the money and once we found out I had a jake we agreed that they would buy the parts from me, and that they would not low ball me on the price should I ever trade it for another one. I would love to have the retarder, but I have to admit the jake does the job very well in the mountains.
The same thing happened to me too but thanks to the forum, I caught my mistake before losing any money.
I have had a Pac brake and now a Jake Brake and driven a coach with a retarder. The retarder is great but I am more confident in a Jake on steep grades since there is no heating issues with the transmission it and doesn't seem to put as much strain on the rear cap as a retarder can.
O K Sometimes answers bring more questions, Does anyone know why when retarder button (Jake Brake) is engaged with no brake the coach is slowing, But when I touch the brake pedal I hear a fluttering noise similar to an exhaust brake noise and the coach seems to be slowing more, Is there a second stage to the Jake Brake with brake applied?
Andrew, I don't know the answer for sure, but mine does the same thing. Mine does have a 2 stage Jake. The retarder button has two detents when you push it up. The first detent activates 3 cylinders the second activates all six cylinders for braking. I guess if it is activated by letting off of the accelerator and then two more stages with the brake applied, it might even be considered a three stage Jake. I believe most of the Jakes on trucks are three stage.
I am confident there are others on the forum that know a lot more than I do and I'm sure we will learn from them the "real details".
The 95 model (at least mine) is 'wired' as a one speed. The 'speeds' are the actuation banks. There are two banks of three cylinders each. Mine actually has two switches that 'engage' the brake and send the signal to the transmission to downshift to 4th. The brake WILL NOT actuate until the throttle is closed. A three stage is 3 banks of two cylinders each. No matter what, there is no braking without the throttle being closed...
Dave, does your activation switch have two stages or just off and on.
Just on or OFF
O K Assuming that the Jake Break has more than one stage, Does it seem reasonable that we could break that circuit at the brake pedal switch and install a manual switch to get full engine brake with ridding the BREAK?
just one speed - I actually argued with James Triana about it, asking why it was wired this way. He didn't know and refused to offer advice on how to wire it correctly.
My wiring diagrams specifically show that its wired with two switches as a one speed.
That led to it being the last time we spoke.
You shouldn't need to brake - turn it on and let off the throttle.
Does your coach make the fluttering noise when you lightly touch the brakes with switch on? It's hard to heard but if your beside a hill or barrier of some kind it's very noticeable..
Dave, I agree that it seems like I get more braking with the brake pedal depressed, but it may be that it just feels like more breaking as the transmission down shifts. Its my understanding that the higher the rpm the more breaking power the Jake has.
My coach makes more "Jake Break" noise with the switch pushed all the way up than it does in the first stage. The higher the rpm the louder the "flutter" noise and it seems to slow down faster
Kent do you have a two stage switch on the consoul? Mine is just on or off
Andrew, mine is a 93 Unihome not a Unicoach like yours so it has some systems that are different. My switch is on the left side of the steering wheel among all of the other rocker switches. When you press the button up it catches two times.
I have to wonder if there is a way to get to that second stage on mine, my switch is in the same place but only one stage..
That's how it works. It sounds like yours is wired properly.
A CAT dealer can verify both stages are operating, and could redesign the wiring to provide a proper 2 stage control. Most truckers use a foot switch. It baffles me that RVs don't do it that way!
yes - but it makes that noise whether I am applying the brakes or not if the jake is on..
Wow that's weird mine is very clear when I touch the brakes it flutters.. I wonder if I can install a foot switch/peddle..
I really want to thank everybody for their input and help with this issue...
Andrew
Dave, its kinda hard to tell. Mine flutters when you let off of the accelerator but I think its louder when the brakes are applied. Again, it could be just the higher rpms from the tranny down shifting.
Do you have the M11 or the Cat. I didn't know they put Cats in the U320's.
Oops! I just noticed that Andrew has a 95 U300. I thought he had a U320 so I guess the difference between his and mine is the Cat vs. the Detroit.
I'm sure something else happens with brake applied the idea of the rpm chage is possable but in my case under the conditions I listed before it sure seems that I go into another stage of engine brake I'll try reading up on the Jake Brake made for the Cat 3176..
Again hanks to All.......
Andrew
I have the M11 400 hp. Its a 370hp unit uprated at Foretravel. These were avail in 95/96. The 3176 Cat was avail in 95/96 as an alternate to the M11 for the 320. Whether they were just leftover U300 engines as they ramped up production, hard to say. I've seen both years and I seem to even remember a '97. I don't believe there was any literature for them - I have a 95 brochure. But it doesn't even mention the 1995 U295C SE and I've seen those in both 40 and 36'...
Back then if you were doing a custom order you could get anything you wanted!
I've yet to see a 95 U320C SE with CAT and retarder...
You can go to Jake and search the model number of your jake. Mine is a 411 model (M11). I have a nice pdf I downloaded that is essentially a sales brochure, lists specs, etc. I also have the parts lists and Jacobs wiring diagrams.
Try this - you and a 317 series Jake:
http://www.jakebrake.com/support/parts-and-service-literature.php?engine_mfr=0&engine_model=1&jacobs_product=4
Gentleman:
If the units are true Jacobs, Paccar, or Cat, and they have the hand switch, then the foot control can be retrofitted.
Had it done to every truck I owned, if not so equipped.
Also, the switches are set up according to your particular engine. Some engines have 3 heads, as in Detroit V12.
Most have either 1 head or two heads. The switches will activate each head. Thus, a single head engine can only have
one action, on or off, while an engine with two heads will have a two way switch. One side will activate one head only,
while the second side will activates both sides.
None of this is related to exhaust brakes.
Good luck,
LynnD
'01 GV
LynnD
Please describe the 3 heads on the Detroit V12. Is that a 12V-71 ?
The only modern day engine I know of with three heads would be the Cummins 855/N14 Series.
The DDA engines that are inline use one head, V engines use two heads until you get to the larger engines that use four heads. Any Detroit engine with four heads you do not want to feed it as the Horse Power starts about 1000 HP with the 12V-92 and goes up and up.
I just can not picture the three head Detroit.
Many thanks
Dave
Andrew,
Make sure the cruise control is off for manual control of the Jake brake. If the cruise is ON, the Jake brake will not activate without stepping on the brake.
I am going to change from the existing rocker switch to a toggle switch with a leg on it so I can quickly pick out which switch has the Jake on it. I will also install a light on the dash that indicates when it is on. Sometimes I forget and leave it on.
Rick, your right. I forgot to mention that the Jake doesn't activate when letting off on the accelerator when the cruise is on. That may be why he isn't hearing it flutter until he steps on the brake.
It seems strange that my 93 has a two stage rocker and a light to indicate the Jake is on and your 95 does not. Also, is there some reason you would not want to run with the Jake on all of the time? It helps slowing down both in traffic and when exiting the highway.
My driving style of very part throttle can put me in situations where the jake would operate.
Dave, I'm a little thick today. Can you explain in more detail what you meant?
If left on it will downshift to 4th as soon as it can. If I want to coast I do not want it on.
Some others have had their transmission reprogrammed to downshift to 5th instead of 4th. If you need 4th you would select it manually. I will probably do that when at the Allison dealer. It makes for a less abrupt shift and for me so far, most times 5th with the jake on would allow me to maintain a better (higher) speed on slight grades. In 4th I will be crawling down most hills in the east.
Ok, I get it. I have a four speed and haven't noticed down shifting being and issue unless I am on the brakes. I certainly understand that you would want it off if you wanted to coast.
Hey Kent You May Have Hit The Nail On The Head... I allways have the cruise switch on, Too bad I won't be moving the coach for a while to test it, I just got into San Antionio and will be here for 2 months before we head off to the east coast for the spring & summer, I will follow up when I get out on the Road,,,,,,
Thanks to All for your input and Advice
Andrew
:) Hey guy's sorry it took so long for me to follow up on this issue, I just cannot believe I have been driving this coach for 8 years and have not been using my jake brake properly, Rick Thank You!!! After reading your commet about the cruise switch being off I tried it, It's unbelievable how much brake I was using that I did not have to. The first time I tried this I was on flat ground @ 70 mph I closed the throttle with jake switch on had some braking, indicator tight on and it automatically downshifted to 5Th gear, now I turned the cruise switch off and couldn't believe what happened the slowing force was increased dramatically, matter of fact I had to open the throttle because I was slowing too fast before the exit ramp.
Thanks Too All, One day I hope that I can be of some help to the members here!!!!
Andrew