11/30/2010 - Had just started my return trip to Pa, from Lake Griffin State Park in Fruitland Park Florida, when there was an explosive blowout of the r/rear inside tire (failed in outboard sidewall). Force of the explosion destroyed the wheel well eyebrow liner and pulled part of the molding and body sidewall loose. FT installed 6 new Michelins prior to delivery of my coach in June of 2008 so tire was only 29 months old with 17K miles on it. Tires had been equipped with a Pressure Pro system since delivery and I monitor pressures before and during every trip. No debris in roadway or potholes / etc. prior to blowout. Fortunately little traffic on the road, a wide shoulder, and no handling problems allowed me to get coach (1995 U300) off the traveled portion of the roadway safely. Had tire changed out on site by "484 Tire" from Ocala (Ken Leggett @ 352-347-1881) and highly recommend him to anyone in need of roadside service in that area. Ken described the tire failure as a "sidewall zipper" and noted on his invoice that there were no indications of "impact or penetration" as a cause for failure. Balance of trip home was uneventful -but much colder than Florida :-(
After arrival in Pa. contacted Michelin regarding warranty adjustment on damaged tire. Was told to take tire to local Michelin Truck Tire Service Center for inspection and assesment. 1st individual inspected tire and immediately reported that failure was due to "underinflation" - told him no way and he indicated that manager would have to inspect. Manager viewed tire and advised that failure was due to "penetration". Manager subsequently spoke to Michelin on phone and then advised that "as a good will gesture" they would provide a $100.00 refund as tire was not defective in their opinion! I'm obviously not happy with their response and wonder if any of the more experienced and knowledgable FT owners with tire evaluation experience might share their opinions. Photo's attached
Welcome to the ForeForum.
Let's get some more facts here.
What is the age of the tire (from DOT number) which gives WEEK and YEAR of production?
What PSI do you carry in the rear tires. What is your actual rear axle weight (weight each side even better if you have it)?
Zipper blowouts are generally the result of underinflation/overloading which causes over-flexing of the steel belts. Bend a paper clip repeatedly and it will break. Same for the steel belts in the tire. And when one lets go, it puts even more stress on its already weakened "neighbor" belts. This leads to a zipper blowout.
Of course any penetration that severs one or more belts can cause the same failure. And, as this failure is not in the usual "line" equidistant from the tread/bead it may indeed have started with a cut/penetration.
Brett
Brett,
If your explanation is appropriate for this case, then would you say that the other dually tire is equally compromised? That is, the increased out of spec flexing of the sidewalls would have to occurr to both tires of the dually combination?
Yes, if the coach was driven very far with one dual flat, the other one has been run SEVERELY overloaded and would also be suspect. It should be inspected as well.
Brett
Brett,
I don't think I made my point clearly. What I mean is that if the side wall break was caused due to "fatigue of the steel cords sidewall", then I assume that this condition developed over a longer period of time. Then, both tires of that streeside dually should have about the same level of fatigue. I would base this on the logic that if one dually is low and the other is just right, the more inflated tire would help its twin not flex as much but still flex perhaps more than desired resulting in "fatigue for both. Then, wouldn't both tires be suspect even w/o a blowout?
Bottom line is that what I wanted to convey was that the dually not replaced should be professionally inspected.
Good point, Peter-- it should be inspected.
We KNOW that the other tire in a dual situation would severely overloaded if driven with its "partner" blown out/flat.
It certainly may have been overloaded if driven with its partner underinflated-- really depends on how underinflated the one that blew was run and for how long.
DOT mfg code is 1208 so tires were relatively fresh when purchased by FT. Coach placard calls for 90 psi front and rear but I run with 95 psi cold. Have never gotten individual weights but did weigh coach + front & rear shortly after purchase - full fuel and water and empty grey and black tanks. Can't put my hands on the weight slip at the moment however rear was around 19600 by memory and front was around 9600. I'll try to find and advise actuals.
The fact that I had a similar side-wall failure on a Michelin (SOB coach) some years ago made me a dedicated convert to Goodyear's G-670. I've heard stories about unusual wear patterns on the G-670, but "not on our coach" - in 14,000+ miles. Still very pleased with the decision. After my sidewall blow-out, I did a little digging on-line and found a fairly significant number of other Michelin side-wall ruptures. All were blamed on "operator-error". That was admittedly a different series and size Michelin tire ( I "think" XAS?" - and, of-course, "individual results may vary".
Also load range of the tire. I'm only finding a load range "L" for the lone XZA-1 on Michelin's inflation table website (which doesn't mean yours aren't a different size or load range).
http://www.michelinrvtires.com/michelinrv/tires-retreads/tireInfo.do?tread=XZA1 (http://www.michelinrvtires.com/michelinrv/tires-retreads/tireInfo.do?tread=XZA1)
The overall inflation table site is here:
http://www.michelinrvtires.com/michelinrv/tires-retreads/load-inflation-tables.jsp (http://www.michelinrvtires.com/michelinrv/tires-retreads/load-inflation-tables.jsp)
Michelle
Edited to add - Google is my friend and I should use it. Found the XZA-1+ load and inflation tables for LRG
http://www.michelintruck.com/michelintruck/tires-retreads/tireInfo.do?tread=XZA-1%2B (http://www.michelintruck.com/michelintruck/tires-retreads/tireInfo.do?tread=XZA-1%2B)
While I am a big Michelin fan I think I will pass on installing them on the coach. I went to a class on tires in Tampa. The tire professional said Michelin has the thinest sidewall. Thats why they have a smoother ride. He said Goodyear tires have the thickest. Thus they have a harsh ride. I have bridgestone. He said they are somewhere in the middle as far as sidewall thickness. He said Michelin are more prone to sidewall blowouts. That what he said anyway. Interested to hear any other info about tires. Hope you can get some more satisfaction from the Michelin Man..
Regards, Mark
Joe,
I am sorry to see that one of your first posts had to be about such a near disastrous event. You certainly have done everything correctly. I don't know what your pro-rated warranty would have paid, but probably not a whole lot more than the "magnanimous" $100 from Michelin. No doubt that generous $100 will really hurt their bottom line.
I am sure you have already talked about how fortunate you are that you did not get hurt or hurt someone else.
Wish I could say something else to make you feel better, but I am glad you are safe and sound.
Wish I would have read this yesterday, before I put 4 new xza 3s on the back...and the previous owner did what i did...replaced the front, and then did the back later...I assumed he did them all together. making my backs coming up on 7 years , but they turned out to be 04 s ..then we found a chewed up rotor..I assume due to over greasing to boot......
My tire guy said the same thing as Mark's, Michelins in general are more prone to sidewall failure and catastrophic blowouts and Goodyears are harder to keep balanced and have a harsher ride. I chose the Goodyears on my last coach and had no problems. My current coach came with Michelins and so far no problems but I run them at 103 psi to help prevent sidewall fatigue. I prefer a rougher ride to a blow out.
I run at 105 in the front and 100 in the rear and 95 in the tag. It is a bit higher than needed but it does give more protection at the cost of a harder ride but the Konis helped those out too.
Load Range on Blowout tire - Only identifying mark that I can find is a large "K" after the XZA-1+ designation. I was under the impression that there was no "K" load range but I can't find anything else ! ??? ???
Jon Harris
Ouch! That's gonna leave a mark...
I'll repeat what I have in the past. I am no real fan of Michelin mainly due to reports here and elsewhere of sidewall failures.
I am running Continental HSL's load range H on mine. I purchased these after TRYING to compare several tire brands and listening to some tire folks that I believe to be knowledgeable and honest. These tires are heavier in the sidewall than other brands and they MAY ride stiffer than some but I can't tell any difference on my FT. I also factored in cost when I bought these, they ran at that time almost 100 bucks less than Michelins. I carry 110 in all tires and I know that this seems high but I am more interested in safety than I am in ride. JMHO
Ran 3 set of Michelin's on SOB (gas, weight 19,800 lbs) never a problem. Am running XZA-3's LRG on U300. So far no problem that can be blamed on tire. But now am getting scared.
Had to (?) put a LRH on right outboard tire. Is there a problem of mixing on a dual??
Bill
Assuming the load range of the new tire is equal to or greater than the other one ("partner") in a dual application, the other primary issue is effective rolling radius. If one tire is taller than the other (due to difference in design specs or difference in tread wear) it will carry a disproportionate amount of weight and therefore much more likely to run overloaded.
Brett
I just had A chit chat with my tire guy , he stated that more tires on heavy units fail because of under inflation than any other cause . So I run the higher pressure , did so in my tractor trailer also . To date ,no blow outs , only nails and that sort of thing causing slow leaks .All three of the Foretravels that I've owned came to me with under inflated tires .I think the deal was to impress on me how great they ride . I noticed It right off by the wiggle factor in steering . His quote " makes no difference what nane brand of tire" "'keep air close to max thats printed on tire"
Hi Brad - That's interesting because thats exactly what the owner of 484 Tire Service said to me. He first asked what pressures I ran at and I told him the FT data plate called for 90 but I ran 95. He pointed out the max cold inflation number of the XZA-1+ (110 psi) and said thats what he would recommend. Claimed that he's seen "hundreds" of the sidewall zipper failures and clearly didn't think highly of Michelin !
Before condemning Michelin, this may be a case where everyone did everything right and something bad still happened. The damage caused to the fender was due solely to the air rushing out of the tire, as there is just a split in the tire and not a chunk of tire missing. That may seem far fetched, but something similar happened to the sewage compartment on my SOB. That was back in the early years when I didn't know about driving on old tires. Also 5 miles earlier I had driven over a bomb nose like device implanted in the center of a street intersection in Comfort, TX. All the weight on left rear was on one tire. In normal use this happens from time to time, like when one tire goes over a pothole, rock, curb, etc and the other doesn't. I carry 5 extra psi for that reason above the weight/inflation chart (may increase it to 10 psi). Trying to reach a happy medium between safety, ride, traction, etc.
If the fiberglass fender parts were found and saved, it may be repairable at less cost than a new fender. Finding the correct matching gel coat will be a problem due to shipping restrictions.
I've not yet had a blow out on my MH but in 40 years of running tractor trailer rigs we have never had a tire mfg come back after tire failure inspection and claim responsibility. Have one as we speak being inspected. In my experience they will always site air pressure issues or driver ran over something. Hey, may be true but I cant help being skeptical.
Update to the Michelin XZA-1+ Blowout Saga !
Met with the Michelin "MATT" representative on Dec.20th at my local Michelin Truck Center. This meeting after several weeks of email exchanges with Michelin Customer Care (nice name but poor description) regarding my tire failure. All responses from Customer Care were to the effect that the blowout was caused by either underinflation / impact damage / penetration / or fatigue rupture - literally anything except a defective tire ! I refused to accept the results of their evaluation or the offer of $100.00 as a "customer accomodation". The tire was mounted on a spreader to allow internal examination and after several minutes the MATT rep announced that he saw no signs of any run flat or underinflation symptoms and that Michelin would grant a full warranty replacement for the tire ( $600.00). Very glad at the outcome and very disappointed at all of the denial and aggravation that preceeded the final determination. Based on everything that I've learned as a result of this incident I'll be running my tires at higher then minimum recommended cold pressures despite the penalty in ride comfort.
WooHoo!!!
Outstanding... Now if you could just sell that house in PA...
Great outcome Jon,
Our 2-axle coach weighs 30,000. We use XZA-3 load-range-H tires on all wheel positions. We aim to carry 100 psi in all tires, but on a cold day, it will vary.
Weighing our coach at all 10 points shows me that 100 psi has a good safety margin to handle the cold mornings and hard turns, etc.
100 PSI will be my new starting point also despite the placarded 90 PSI from Foretravel. 484 Tire Service (road service that changed out the tire) recommended running at the max 110 PSI as shown on the tire sidewall. I might try that for awhile to see how the ride quality is affected but I'll probably end up at the 100 PSI cold setting.
10 points to weigh on a two axle coach? Please amplify. I would expect a maximum of six points to weigh, and a practical limit of four.
We like to weigh and record 10 points for comparison from time to time. Multiple point weighing verifies that the sum of left and right add up to axle weight.
Often when a wheel is off the scale to weigh only one side, the wheel off the scale can be carrying some of the weight of the wheel on the scale.
We weigh:
1- left front
2- left side
3- left rear
4- right front
5- right side
6- right rear
7- front axle
8- both axles
9- rear axle
Then we run totals to find lost pounds. Sum of parts should match total.
Microsoft Excel helps.
1+2=7
3+6=9
1+3=2
4+6=5
7+9=8
2+5=8
Jon,
I have basically the same coach and same Michelin tires Load range H (2 years old). Initially I tried 110 psi but found that the coach wandered quite a bit and I thought I might have a loose steering box. After reading some articles about handling I backed the pressure down to 100 and it handles great without the front end wandering.
What would be the difference with the XZA-3 tires?
I had serious road damage to my right rear outboard tire. It had very bad superficial sidewall damage and tread damage. I think I ran across a cement pad up on departure from Gila Bend AZ. Did not discover damage until Balmorhea, TX
Do not know for sure but think I drove it about 650 miles on it. It was load range LRG.
Just lucky I guess
This is a real interesting thread. My 225, close to fully loaded, weighs 20,740. Front: 8,080; Back: 12,660. I am running Michelin 235/80R 22.5 XRV. The Michelin site indicates the fronts should be 87 psi and the rears should be 70 psi. The FT info plate, of course, indicates higher inflation on both ends and this discussion seems to recommend even higher rates. So, are we saying, in light of lots of anecdotal evidence of blowouts, that the Michelin recommended tire inflation rates are incorrect and should be ignored? Thanks.
jor
jor,
This is a call you have to make on your own. The "softer" the tires are the more flexing they will do and the more flexing they do, the more heat they build up.
Based on my very limited ( thankfully ) experience with Michelin and sidewall blowouts I can only offer this observation; Don't expect Michelin to be open and receptive to any cause that indicates a defective tire. You need to be agressive and persistent at the local and corporate level in order to escalate your claim and generate a knowledgable technical review. The conclusion that I have come to, as a result of this experience, is that running at the minimum recommended operating pressure leaves very little margin of sidewall flexing safety - despite the softer ride.
It's just interesting to me that the manufacturer's recommendation is so far off. For example, on cars and pickups I always inflate according to the recommendation unless a particular condition calls for more pressure. With all of these blowout problems in the RV community, I wonder why Michelin has not addressed the issue. I'm sure they have heard about them as I don't see any shrinking violets in this group of posters. At any rate, in light of Jon's and others' experiences, I think I'll kick up the pressure on those duals. Thanks.
jor
I was fortunate that my 1st motorhome blowout was on the rear as there were absolutely no handling issues at all. Coach didn't swerve and continued straight down the road under complete control. I am absolutely certain that there would be new puckers in the drivers seat cushion had the blowout occurred on a front tire - certainly much more critical than the failure of one of the duals !
I was told by my local truck tire dealer that Michelens are known to be more prone to blowouts, Bridgestone more prone to premature UV damage and more rapid tire ware and Goodyear's to be the most reliable overall. They also recommended running any tire at its maximum air pressure unless one noticed premature wear in the center of the tire. That deficiency is found much less often in heavy load tires versus car and light truck tires.
I put the Goodyears on my U225 and the U300 came with Michelins. I do have some concern about the Michelins so I bought Pressure Pros for each and run them at at least 100 psi.
The unicoach tends to a heavier nose as the generator hangs in front. I do 100 front and 95 rear. On my U280 I ran 90 front and 85 rear.
Final update on this incident. Notice received today from Progressive Insurance, National Subrogation Unit, that they had unsuccesfully exhausted their efforts with Michelin in attempting to collect for body damage repairs resulting from the blowout of the XZA-1 tire on my coach. This despite the fact that Michelin had (finally after many communications) agreed to refund the full purchase price of the tire acknowledging that failure was not due to any improper operation. Based on my experience in this occasion there's not much likelyhood that the next set of tires on the coach will be from Michelin.