Come 12/26 we will possibly head south. In the engine compartment is a canister of starting fluid, actuated from driver's panel? It looks pretty old and may be empty. There is an apparent pushbutton for actuating the canister from the driver's seat. Will I need to use starting fluid if I have the engine block heater on for a day or two? Oh, by the way, It is the Detroit diesel 8.2, 200hp with the turbo, 1989 model. Temps are getting down to the single digits and even below zero at night.
The coach is plugged in but I used the battery disconnect switch. There are two LARGE 12volt batteries under the steps and they are new as of this fall, so cranking, with the boost switch, shouldn't be a problem.
You should be fine using the block heater. I've never had any problem with any of my trucks starting in colder temps than that while plugged in.
nitehawk. That canister did or does contain diethyl ether, the stuff they used to put people to sleep with. It is highly volatile and can blow up your engine. USE IT ONLY IN DIRE EMERGENCY!
I hope others more knowledgeable than I will explain how it is supposed to be used.
I've never liked using ether if I could get around it. Of course in 40 years of trucking have used many a can. Had more trucks in the early years without block heaters than with. I left a manual Cummins sit for nine days once in St Paul Minnesota plugged in and it got down to 40 below during the time and never got above zero. It started and rocked and bucked and blew smoke rings for 45 min, man I spent some cold winters up there. Start one like that and just walk away from it at low idle to warm itself up.
While ether/starting fluid poses a LOT more risk for modern engines with grid intake manifold heaters (can you say EXPLOSION), it can be hard on any engine.
Plug in you block heater 4 hours or so before you want to start it-- overnight at the longest. Be sure the batteries are fully charged. If you have a boost/battery combine switch, turn it on so all your batteries are helping turn over the engine.
Brett
How can I safely remove that canister of explosive starting fluid in the engine compartment?
--
George & Sandy & Trixie
Lost in America in a 40' Foretravel aka "Moose"
Follow our adventures at http://sangeo-travels.blogspot.com/
Take a torch to it...
:oTAKE A TORCH TO IT , AND NEVER WORRY ABOUT COLD STARTS FOR EVER MORE
George,
Sounds like Dave needs a little happy hour!
If your engine was designed to be able to use starting fluid (ether), I would leave the canister there for emergency use (starting in very cold weather with no time to use block heater/or Aqua hot.
Check with your engine manufacturer to verify that your engine (by serial number) is safe for use of starting fluid. Said another way, verify that you do NOT have an intake manifold electric grid heater.
Brett
I believe I read in the Detroit Diesel owners manual how & when to use the ether boost but I dislike using it as I have used it on gas vehicles when I worked part time winters starting vehicles. Even then I would only use it as a last resort. Having never had a diesel powered vehicle before I wanted to make sure my qualms about using the ether were correct.
THANKS ALL!!!
My father-in-law built a charcoal fire, in a snow saucer (round aluminum sled), under the engine in his International cabover to get it started one very cold snowy day back during the Buffalo Blizzard of '77. He left for Florida the same day and never moved back. And he never came back during the winter either. He died during the winter time down there, but we buried him on a hillside overlooking his family's Pennsylvania homestead in the summer time. That was what he wanted. Smart man.
I am in total agreement on "Do not use the ether ever", use the block heater, keep the electric heater in good condition or better yet, use the Aqua Hot and turn on the heat to engine.
Am aware everyone has their own excuse for why they should use ether, that is very fine with me, I will never use it. I happen to be aware of the down side of using it. On a regular engine, your are damaging the compression rings, making them have less tension to the cylinder wall, IE, less compression, then harder to start and now you have it weaned on either, congrats ::)
If you happen to have an engine with glow plugs and/or intake electric heater, sure use more either and watch the fireworks and smoke, more smoke from you ears when you see how that works out.
Almost everyone knows someone that heard of a guy that used either for years and did not hurt anything, I say congrats.
Using ether is an art in its self, you only need enough to start the engine, not lock it up.
As mentioned have a ball, for me, no thanks, I am too poor to experiment :)
Once you start using starting fluid, you will have to continue which is bad - never use starting fluid except in emergency situations. Thanks Clarence
Brett,
I think Dave was well into the Happy Hour. As to the starting fluid. Geez, FoT built it that way, so one would have the feeling it as safe. But there is no way in H E _ _ I would ever even think about using that stuff to start our engine.
WD 40 has become an alternative to ether in this area. Not nearly as explosive.
Gayland, correct pm WD40. The problem with ether is the violent explosion which takes the temper out of the compression ring/s, requiring more either the next time.
Have seen a few engines that have been ether'd to point they will not start even on a hot sunny day without either. Referred to as "Weaned on Ether"
Every time you give it a shot of either you take a little temper out of the ring/s.
No thanks for my engines, I use the electric block heater or the Aqua Hot feature :)
The 3208 Cat engine is the quickest starting engine around, A fairly good medium duty engine.
George,
Go to the canister and unplug the wiring harness to prevent activation of the Ether canister, or disconnect the switch up front.
Rick
P.S. This probably qualify's as a Tech topic and should be moved over there. Thanks in advance Steve.
Rick,
Thank you. I will do that. Certainly an easy way to defuse a potentially volatile situation.
Although Dave Head's answer does add an element of excitement.
Again, Gayland is right about the wd 40 for starting. I've used it on trucks that driver was bad about running out of fuel.Finally had to recommend that driver find someone else to drive for. Far less combustionable (sp) and a bit of lube as well.
I had the FT shop in Dallas (back in the good 'ol days) disconnect the either canister in my 2000 FT.
John Lang
1st check and see IF your coach has an electric block heater and make sure it's working( engine should warm to the touch) in 3-4 hours. The canister you describe is a remote activated ether starting system, very common on older diesels used properly it will not harm your engine(refer to your owners manual for proper use). It is used for engines not equiped with glow plug starting aids. So if you have a block heater turn it on when you go to bed(the coach should be plugged in) try starting if no start, give it a shot of ether and try it. Also make sure your batteries are in good shape and all connections are clean and tight, you might also have a truck shop check for any voltage drop in your battery cable's to the starter (especally if your coach has the orginal cables on it, they can have problems on the inside that you can't see) also FYI the boost switch mentioned above is not for starting as such, but to allow your house battery charging system to charge your cranking system battery's while you are parked, due to the length of the cables it will not flow enough current to help much starting. Happy cranking
Bruce Beane
I am almost never connected to shore power so I start the generator for an hour and turn on the block heater. If parked while visiting someone, a long extension cord will not do the trick unless it is really heavy duty. The voltage drops too much and everything shuts down. I do carry a large propane burner with a five gallon tank and 10 foot hose. I light the burner under the engine about an hour before I am ready to go. It heats the whole compartment as well as the engine. Don't have to put it too close to the pan! I have seen a lot of truckers with charcoal that do the same thing in freezing temps. I usually turn the engine over with foot off the pedal until it fires a couple of cylinders and then gradually feed a little more fuel to it. Don't crank it for more than 30 seconds and then wait a couple of minutes if it doesn't light. Yes, good idea to check battery connections ahead of time. Dirty injectors are also not noticed until you have to start in winter. High altitude, sub freezing temps make even starting a Detroit difficult without the above.
Pierce & Gaylie
93' U300/36
Coach is backed into the driveway over onto the "turnout" so the rearend recieved the brunt of the snow storm and now the radiator and fans (rear mounted) are packed with snow. I think if I make sure the fans turn freely the radiator will melt the snow as it warms up. Right??
Nitehawk,
FWIW, my '91 GV has the same ether system yours does. The documentation that came with the CAT engine specified using ether below 30 degrees. I have used the block heater when we were at 8900 feet and it was about 32 degrees and the engine started just fine. I believe that my ether starting system is by KBI. I printed out the directions for checking to see it there is any fluid in it but I cannot find them now.
Enough about primary engine starts.
Some thought to the Aux power unit ( Power-Tech 10k)
How is it effected by lower temp's
I think If I could get it started I could get the main Powewr Plant going.
Cold Weather – FuelIn cold weather fuel does not vaporize very well in the combustion chamber and this makes starting difficult.
Modern diesel engines designed for cold weather use a pre-heater or glow plugs. Glow plugs are heating elements that warm up the air that enters the engine. They work on a timed circuit or are manually activated just before the engine is started. The colder it gets, the longer those glow plugs need to stay on to preheat the combustion chamber for a smooth start.
Diesel fuel thickens in cold weather. It has a tendency to gel. Diesel Fuel has some naturally occurring paraffin (wax) and as the temperature drops, this paraffin crystallizes and affects the fluidity of the fuel and may cause hard starting and eventually lead to filter plugging. You can use a fuel additive to prevent this and is recommended for all year round use.
Cold Weather – BatteriesBatteries that are weak may not crank the starter motor fast enough to start a cold engine. As the temperature goes down, so does battery capacity. A battery that has all of its power available at 80 degrees F will have only about 46% available power at 0 degrees F. Plus, the engine will be 2.5 times harder to start at 0 degrees due to thicker oil and resistance to movement of internal moving parts. In effect, an engine is about five times harder to start at 0 degrees F than at 80 degrees F. Test weak or suspicious batteries under load before cold weather to help eliminate potential problems during busy times. If batteries need replacement, always replace with a battery equal to or more powerful than the original battery.
Keep your battery stored indoors to prevent it from freezing. Consider buying a small battery charger / maintainer to keep the battery topped up so it is always ready to use.
Cold Weather – OilThe warmer the engine oil is, the thinner it will be and have less resistance to moving engine parts. Make sure you are using the proper viscosity oil recommended for your engine for cold temperatures. If you cannot store engines inside or in a heated area, consider installing a block heater on the engine. To save time and electricity, put the block heater on an electrical timer set to come on a couple of hours before you plan to start the generator.
After starting the generator on a cold day, allow the engine to warm up a few minutes before putting it under load. Proper engine operation temperatures assure more efficient fuel combustion and may prevent damage to cold engine parts. Engine oil flows more readily at operating temperatures and allows proper lubrication of engine parts and areas.
Bill,
When was the last time you were able to run the genset?
Do you have an engine block heater?
Sounds like you're boondocking?
Are your coach batteries charged enough to power the starting of the genset?
Bill,
FWIW, last week we found ourselves in Gallup, NM at 12 degrees. The generator started just fine after a couple seconds of rough running, and the main engine started on the third try. I had been circulating A-H coolant through it for two hours.
My 1996 U320 with M11 Cummins has a ether start switch on dash is it necessary in Calif for cold starts?
My last coach had ether. I only used it when it was so cold it would not start by regular methods. Usually, the engine heater, the 110V electric switch at the foot of the bed, would allow the engine to start without the use of ether. Preheat the engine at least 4 hours before starting. If after a couple of tries it will not start, turn off heater and try a short blast of ether. A couple of seconds is plenty. I never used more than two shots of ether. Always turn off the block heater.