I really enjoy reading all these post, very informative . How about batteries? In our old coach it was a 1980 Prevost Bus, old school with a 8-v 71 Detriot . It has a 50 AMP converter/ charger no inverter, When we first got the bus it had 2 8D batteries and I changed to 4 6-volt golf cart batteries, it made a big difference on how long the charge lasted. The Prevost is all electric so it used a lot of power. On our new rig, it has 4 blue top Optima batteries , do you think the 6- volt golf cart batteries are a better way to go ? Most of our trips are dry camping. Thanks Art
Are you talking about engine start batteries or coach/inverter batteries?
The engine batteries can most likely be handled by a flooded lead acid 8D as long as you stay in warm weather.
I prefer 8D gel batteries for the coach as they do not emit noxious fumes that corrode electronics and have double the duty cycles of AGM's.
You should have room for three or maybe four gel units and they should serve you will in boondocking.
If you are going to boondock a lot, I heartily recommend installing about 600+ watts of solar on the roof and making them tiltable.
Converting your lighting to LED will also help alot. Installing a smaller inverter for computers/wifi/etc...will use less overhead
than the big 2500 unit.
Pick up a Yamaha EF2400i to supplement your power in the wintertime and it will run one AC unit in the summer. Cheaper to wear out than a diesel and more fuel efficient too.
Regards,
Jon The Blue top Optimas are the house batteries. The starter batteries are 3 regular car batteries. Art
Art,
As you may know, the Optima Blue Tops are deep cycle batteries that can also be used as high CCA starting batteries. These are better suited for use as start batteries in RV's and boats. If your wet cell start batteries are on the way out, I would exchange these with the Blue Tops and get 8D gels for the coach inverter/charger. Otherwise, just wait for the batteries to complete their life cycle and then you can go with any options you like.
Hey guys, I am a bit confused. It has always been my understanding the the 6V Golf Cart batteries provide the optimum in storage and life cycle due to their thicker plates. Am I hearing that you think the 8D Gels are preferable to the 6V Golf Cart batteries for the house?
Art,
We do 99% dry camping. I found 6 new batteries from a bankrupt solar project and put them where the 8Ds were. $35/each on Craigslist (list $585 each). Our 8Ds were shot when we bought it or would have left well alone. I had a 4107 conversion and installed golf cart batteries that also worked well. I think I would leave the existing batteries in place and concentrate on replacing juice guzzling lights, tvs, etc. I have converted some lights to LEDs and will finish the project by summer. They use so little electricity that they will pay for themselves in diesel fuel in a couple of years. Make sure to order WARM white. Ebay is a good source, cheap out of Hong Kong).
Getting rid of the old CRT tv(s) is also a good move. The LCDs use way less and the even newer LED TVs use still less. I bought a single 80 watt solar panel that also works well. Portable so that you can move to face the sun is worth two fixed on the roof.
Found a large single burner propane cooker that goes under the engine in winter for an hour so don't have to run the generator for the block heater (use a tarp over the rear engine door so heat stays inside).
Also installed a 10K btu ventless heater (49 state legal with O2 & CO sensor, thermostat and 99.9 % efficient) to heat the coach. I always crack a window a tiny bit to be absolutely safe. Has no fan so that really cuts down on the electricity use but also does not heat compartment or water pump below for really cold weather. It makes no noise, a real plus for us.
Newer fridges use quite a bit of juice even when operating on propane. Dometics are easy to disconnect the defrost/door gasket heaters, Norcold is a little harder as you have to cut a wire or put in a switch. Details avail. online.
A lot of little things add up to hours more of battery use and less percentage of battery cycle.
Dry camping forever!
Pierce & Gaylie
93' U300/36
I changed the batteries in our coach this past summer with 2 8D AGM's if I had to do it again I would go with 4 6 volt AGM's deep cycle.
Blue top Optima batteries are marine deep cycle/start and will not provide the same deep cycle service as "real" deep cycle batteries.
The number of times that a battery can be discharged/recharged depends on the type (wet, gel, AGM), thickness of plates, and the depth of discharge.
Most cycles by type: Gel is most (best for deep cycle), AGM next, Wet (golf cart) least.
Gel batteries require special handling because they must not be charged above 14.2 volts, while wet golf carts batteries are fine chrging to 14.6 volts which is the standard finish voltage for automobiles. Gels charged to 14.6 will overheat, bulge the case, and out gas through safety pressure vents (so battery does not explode).
In the past, Gel batteries were the cycle king by far, providing twice the number of cycles during lifetime as wet cells, and providing 50% more cycles than AGM.
Today, manufacturers of AGM batteries have improved the number of lifetime cycles so they are close to Gel batteries without the charge voltage sensitivity.
There is no magic bullit, and comparing batteries is shades of gray.
Wet golf cart batteries will provide good service with the least money invested initially, but require the most ongoing maintenance. The cost per cycle is higher with these batteries than with Gel Cells.
I have both Gel and AGM batteries. My one remaining Gel 8D battery still provides about 160 amp hours after seven years of 250 cycles per year (to 80% or 90%).
Depth of charge effect on life cycles:
The deeper the discharge, the less life cycles available. However, if you are only cycling to 90%, you are carrying a lot of weight in batteries. I recommend cycling to 80% most of the time and sometimes to 60%.
I have reduced the 12 volt amperage use in my U320 by reducing phantom loads and installing LED lights.
This is another topic
Ask me about this in Quartzsite, I will show you what i have done.
FWIT
Wyatt
It would be interesting to know the rationale for your new viewpoint.
Regards,
Jon Twork
Research.
Battery technology is constantly evolving. Will you be at the Quartzsite Lemon Rally? I will be there and would like to meet you.
Wyatt
Wyatt,
Would be interested in documentation that suggests that a quality AGM such as Lifeline has less discharge/recharge cycles than a gel battery.
We have been running Lifeline AGM's for almost 2 decades in all our boats and RV's and find them well worth the extra $$.
Brett
Check the data at EAST PENN manufacturing co., inc.: Lead-Acid Batteries; Battery Manufacturers; (http://www.eastpennbattery.com) the people who make DEKA and MK BATTERY products.
They make all three types of batteries. Flooded, AGM & Gels. They have ample comparison data that tells the story.
One would think that their data would be somewhat unbiased as compared to a company that only "markets" a single type of battery. At least that is how it would seem to me. I find it difficult to obtain any unbiased info these days on any subject. The only people that REALLY know are the test engineers. Most aren't talking as they like their jobs. It's tough out there.
Regards,
Jon Twork
I have attended once and will not be attending this year.
I will however be in Yuma for quite a while at the Cocopah Casino and you are welcome to drop by visit me and with four other Foretravelers... I am in RV Overnight Space 21. Others are scattered around. We are boondocking on blacktop.
Regards,
Jon Twork
I have spent hours studying battery technologies and found many less than useful sites. A google search of "AGM Gel" will reveal dozens of sites.
Here are some sites which appear to provide useful information:
This site has the most compelling technical agruments regarding AGM VRS GEL.
http://vrlabattery.onesite.com/blog/2007/12/20/a_comparision_of_agm_and_gel_sealed_lead_acid_batt (http://vrlabattery.onesite.com/blog/2007/12/20/a_comparision_of_agm_and_gel_sealed_lead_acid_batt)
This site claims Gel batteries have 20% more capacity than AGM.
It also has links to a large number of battery information sites.
Car and Deep Cycle Battery FAQ, Battery Manufacturers and Brand Names List, and (http://www.batteryfaq.org/)
This site claims that AGM batteries have twice the capacity of Gel but I do not believe it.
www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/01.Type/index.html (http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/01.Type/index.html)
This site compares battery types for discharge/recharge deterioration and clearly favours Gel.
www.batterybook.com/GELvsAGM.pdf (http://www.batterybook.com/GELvsAGM.pdf)
This site answers the question: Which type of battery is beat for my boat?
East Penn Manufacturing indicates their Gel batteries last longer than their AGM.
AGM or Gel Cell: Marine Battery Choices | Boats.com Blog (http://www.boats.com/blog/2010/10/agm-or-gel-cell-marine-battery-choices/)
This is Victron Energy which indicates longer life for Gel than AGM.
Gel and AGM Batteries - Victron Energy (http://www.victronenergy.com/batteries/gel%20and%20agm%20batteries/)
Either AGM or Gel can provide good service with AGM batteries being more robust, but Gel batteries providing more cycles in my opinion. The differences between AGM and Gel batteries is becoming less distinct with AGM manufacturers making modification to increase their life cycles. Also Gel batteries seem to be less available now than AGM. The batteries I purchased in May last year to replaced the bad Gel batteries which came with my U320 were Concorde AGM batteries. The Gel batteries had been abused by the Freedom 25 because the controller was set to initialize "Lead Acid" Equalize mode at startup.
I believe that Wyatt has followed this following principle as to the research he has done. He certainly has documented the subject material well. : "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation." That is how scientific research is done - investigation! And contempt before investigating prevents open minded investigation.
I quoted Herbert Spencer on another RV site and the moderators chose to remove the quote. The thought I was insulting someone, which I wasn't.
FWIW, When I replaced a battery in my Daughters car I was tols at O'reilly Auto parts that Easty Penn Makes their batteries.