I saw them at the Quartzsite show. These super neat looking wide base tires are designed to replace duals in RVs. They claim reduced energy consumption (two sidewalls vice four), lower unsprung weight (about 450 lbs), and much better performance. Is anyone using them? Other than the conversion cost of switching wheels any down sides? I'll try to get in to town and get actual prices in the next day or so.
I would worry about a flat. You can limp off a busy road on a single inflated dual. I would also worry about the availability of a replacement if you have the flat in podunk.
There have been a few individuals on IRV2 that made the change on SOBs. You can about break even on the cost by selling your old rims (4 conventional tires vs 2 new rims and 2 wide tires). They are in high demand by truckers.
Bottom line is its a subtle improvement in ride quality. Real issue is how long it will take to get a replacement on a blowout. You ain't gonna limp anywhere on one dual!
I once saw a semi that had these tires on the tractor drive wheels. One was flat and the mechanic that was called to change the tire removed the tire from the rim and installed a new one without ever removing the rim. Of course there was no fender in the way to hinder the process. Maybe they do that with outside duals too. Never really thought about it much. Hard to believe that switching would ever be cost effective, one would just have to want the cool look.
Harvey,
I'm just an interested bystander, but, from an engineering standpoint, they don't make sense. They look "cool" but I'd have a lot of questions, and I'm not sure how one could assure that you get/or validate the quality of answers. For example:
1. Much higher cost for the new wheels
2. Higher cost of tire (Overall, about equal to a set of duals?)
3. A balloon wants to be round (not have a flat side - for road contact)
4. The cord design is massive to make it non-round (flat contact with road) and perfectly square under the range of expected conditions (to prevent uneven wear), at very high pressures. It would also seem to be necessary to preload the design with considerable stress, just to achieve this.
5. Sidewalls also have to be much more massive because two sidewalls must accommodate the dynamic loading stresses previously shared by four sidewalls.
6. Massive sidewalls generate more heat under flex and turning/center of gravity shift torque.
7. Massive sidewalls degrade sooner and faster from heat. At their limits, radials last much longer than the stiffer, more massive bias ply design.
8. Massive sidewalls generate much more throughput of shock energy (ride much harder/stiffer). When they first came out, radials were the "new age miracle" because they absorbed this road shock energy, rather than transmitted it through the stiff belted ply sidewalls. Super singles seem to give much of this advantage away for "cool factor".
9. At interstate highway speed, losing one super single to a road hazard has to be much less safe than losing one-half of a set of duals.
10. When that massive single fails, what are the chances that it will do less damage to the coach than one half of a set of duals failing?
11. Can all truck tire dealerships accommodate the servicing of super singles (do they have the necessary equipment to do it without damaging or destroying those expensive new rims?
12. I can see where a trucking company might be able to achieve a benefit. But they are not as concerned with ride harshness and delicate bodywork with very tight clearances. They also, in their use, are not (generally) relying on a single drive or single support axle configuration.
13. I'd want to know why a number of large trucking outfits have migrated to this design and then back to standard tires, based on the failure of these super singles to meet their expectations.
14. Where are you going to find a replacement? Your options and bargaining power are greatly reduced.
15. Road contact patch may even be reduced (less stopping and emergency handling advantage).
16. Sensitivity to over and under-inflation is magnified due to trying to keep that super balloon squarely in contact with the road.
And for a whole bunch of other engineering reasons, that I don't remember.
My son (Trucking owner/operator) says he wouldn't touch them with a ten-foot pole.
Anyway, Harvey, just my rambling.
Neal
I had super singles on a 53', 102" wide, 13'6" trailer (had to stay in Florida with it) I pulled back in early 1980s. Did not like them back them. Then again before retiring in the late 1990s, early 2000s on both tractor and trailer. Liked them even less then. Talk about hydroplaning! They would really hydroplane on hot asphault, it did not have to be wet. And if you had a flat tire, sit there forever waiting and hoping. No way on my Foretravel.
If you notice, most tractors and trailers that run super singles have tandem axles,have a flat ,remove the wheel and chain up the axle and head for the nearest tire shop.
I'm thinking that Newmar was or is using these in some fifth wheels to boost GVW at two tandem axles works in that situation. But, I never followed up on their development on fivers.
Not with a tanker hauling flammable liquids. Don't go anywhere with any type of flat. DOT law.
Excellent point!
Forgot that point and it's perhaps the most important! I know that one NE fuel delivery company abandoned their changeout to super singles (went back to standard tires) because they had so many accidents and close calls in wet and slushy conditions.
Neal
Someone should talk to Flying J/Pilot, Exxon, Amoco and other fuel delivery companies that are hauling gasoline and diesel fuel with their super single equipped tanker trucks.
Maybe recommend they have a safety man keep up with the foreforums tech section for the proper way to equip and operate their trucks.
Take a look around, there are more and more trucks being setup with the super single arrangement, seems 25% of the new trucks are using it.
FWIW
Dave,
Better to ask the driver who has to drive with them on the rig, than the guy sitting behind the desk counting the beans! He only knows about the beans, and can't seem to connect them to each other. As a driver trainer, I worked very closely with the safety department. The only thing that are about is hauling more weight and being cheap. And they got a deal when they first started using them. The bean counter got caught in the deal.
PatC, I do not like the idea of the singles, but I have talked to one driver who drives for a trash hauler from the big cities who is running them, He claims they are fine. Maybe either he is too dumb to notice or does not drive aggressively and has not encountered snow, ice, wet or hot road yet.
It seems to me that if they were dangerous, there would be one of many govt centers involved in many class action suits. Heck think of the liability issues for the tire makers, truck makers anyone involved in selling these dangerous tires.
I have no experience with them, nor so I want any. I just can not understand how the govt would knowingly allow such dangerous tires.
I know they work great in soft ground for good floatation vs duals.
Cheers :)
The government knowingly allows a lot of dangerous activities where industry lobbies are involved.
I just can't imagine having a single tire on the rear. I don't have the experience that so many of you do, but I like the idea of being able to limp to safty with one dual left rather than risk a blow-out and possible damage to the fiberglass etc. I think they're a bad idea...but that may just be me :)
Carl, The fiberglass is just part of the damage, the other is the damage to the tire rim, they are not cheap either. Either tire setup will usually cause some damage.
I fully agree with your idea of dual wheels. :)
Wow!!! I appreciate all the great feedback. It is quite obvious that the consensus is very negative on switching to super wide singles (at least at this time).
Harvey, Yes, this is about the same as a Ford vs Chevy discussion, everyone has an many opinions and not enough facts. :))
Or, perhaps, "Everything's been said, but not everyone has said it" ;o)
best, paul
Like Pat C said, most of the trucking co's use them for reduced weight, primarily haulers that haul by the ton. I've only had one owner operator leased to me that used them. Personally I would worry about them from the moment I pulled out of the drive way if they were on my coach. My owner operator lost a weeks work when he went to replace his. Spent alot of time shopping for replacements he felt like he could afford. Sold the truck and vowed never to have super singles again. To few vendors offering them to give a buyer any bargaining power.
Dave M, these are facts.
Yep, Facts based on which story?
Might google "Super Single Truck Tires" then read many of the stories on the forum they have.
Truckers report mileage of 438 K on a set, wore them down to 3/32" before replacing them.
How they feel about traction when tread depth is good "We all know how well a smooth tire grabs snow", etc.
Some drivers do not like them, but a lot do like them, so it sounds like a opinion does it not?
The main complaint is being stuck if and when they have a blow out.
The smart operators keep a very close look at the tire pressure and do not use the "Thump" method and report very good luck using super singles.
My ideas are based on reading all the info available, and not solely by reading uneducated opinions from non experienced users.
As stated earlier, I have zero interest in using them, I am too old and too stupid and I am not concerned about payload nor mileage nor fuel usage, just happly rolling down the road.
Everyone has to do what they feel good about, no matter how stupid a few others think you are.
FWIW as usual :))
Pat C, I started trucking in late 69 and can't recall what year we first started seeing the super singles. They hadn't been out very long when I picked up a driver who had sidewall failure just outside of El Paso and took him to the 76 truckstop. I went on to Pheonix and delivered and when I got back to El Paso that truck was still sitting on the shoulder of the road the next day. Seen that a few times in the span of 41 years trucking. Now I don't know if you can find that on google or not but having seen to many times with my eye's takes away the need.
I started in 1970 after Vietnam and ended up back on active duty between '76 thru '82. Got out in 1982 and brought one of Tropicana Orange Juice's old Kenworths. Signed on with John J. Jerue Transportation, Inc. out of Bartow and Pompano Beach, Fl. Pulled his trailers hauling export citrus and fruit to the docks. He also had beer contracts and we moved orange concentrate from one cold storage to another(?). The trailers, brand new, were box trailers, 53 foot long, 102 inches wide and 13.6 high. They had the super singles and were the only I had ever seen at the time. No one else in Florida was running them. Those trailers were not allowed out of state because they were not legal in Alabama or Georgia. But we did "sneak" a ways into Georgia once in a while to get a load of mulch to pay fuel going back to get the export fruit. The only guys who liked them were the "cowboys" who liked to leave the wide black marks on the highway. If you dropped them off the pavement on Rt 60, it took a mile to get them back on the pavement, and the tractor would be on the other side of the road while trying to get the trailer straight again. And when it rained, wow, hated them. Pulled them while working for Jureu for about a year, then went on to "bigger and better things ::).
My last 20 years was with one of the union contract petroleum carriers out of NW Pennsylvania. Our terminal hauled pretty much exclusively for 2 different refineries. As I said, I was a driver trainer for them and worked very closely with the safety department in that aspect. They tried out the super singles, and are still running them on some of the heavy hauler rigs with overweight permits. Those rigs stay close to home and don't run over the road. They are only permitted to exit Pennsylvania and run in NYS exclusively. The company does their own tire service which runs out of the main terminal. They run as far as 200 miles to change a tire. Petroleum rigs can not run with a flat tire as it is a violation of DOT regulations. So you sit were ever it goes flat or blows out. You can't drive to the next exit like other rigs can.
The only vehicle of mine that runs A super-single [ my chrome plated racing wheel barrow ] On my Foretravel ? NO WAY .
My 67 Camaro had super singles, they were made by M&H :))
PatC, I know this is going way past normal, but I am wondering what the driver trainers are doing these days that were apparently not doing in your day as driver trainer, as to training on the use and care of the super single tires. As we all know, there are many petroleum carriers and others today that are using this new technology successfully. I do not think just claiming they are all stupid and not educated as to the dangers will hold water, they have way too much experience for that lame claim.
I am interested in your view on this subject.
One of my thoughts is around the narrow track, making for a less stable platform, for me, I like the tires out at full width of the load.
Knowing you have more experience than most anyone else, your opinion is valued.
Thanks
They got no actual training on the super singles! We spent at least 8 weeks on loading and unloading of petroleum products. Did not matter if they had experience with petroleum or not. Did not matter how long they had driven truck. They all went through it. About 5 weeks on gasoline, diesel, kerosene, and JetA and JP8 and diesel and about 3 more on black oils including Hot Asphalt . We evaluated their driving ability, loading and unloading ability, customer relations abilities daily and turned in a report. We also prepared and quizzed them for the required Hazmat testing. All drivers hauling Hazmat (petroleum products) are required to have special training which you can find in DOT 49 CFR 172 and DOT 49 CFR 177 and pass a test to become certified to haul Hazmat. This is in addition to the regular drivers DOT test. Did train a couple to drive from scratch. They are taught nothing more than they are taught about any other tire. How to inspect the tire for a pretrip. That includes "checking air pressure" by hitting it with a tire billy or hammer. Never knew anyone who carried or used a air gauge. And we were not supplied a air gauge, only a safety approved flashlight, a metal clip board, uniforms and a rain suit.
As to the super singles, what I have stated here is my personal experiences with them. And what others have commented to me concerning them. You have to remember that petroleum tank operation drivers are home every night. Any operation that operates that way is a ideal operation for super singles because they are never that far from the tire supply at the main terminal. As I stated, in a hazmat operation, if you get a flat tire, you sit where you discovered it. It is a violation of DOT law to move it. We were located in the north and delivered lots of bulk plants in the middle of the night when no one was there. In the winter, they were not plowed out, just dug you way Through the snow. If you got stuck and had to be towed out, it was a chargeable accident on your record. This was one place you did not want the super singles. Cause once you were empty, you better darn well be pointed own hill, or you were not going to get out of there. None of our guys liked them in the winter time. But companies do not care if the drivers like them or not. It is all about how many tons or gallons you can you can legally haul , or get away with hauling. Nothing else matters. And although they have safety departments, that is all about not gettting caught.
But to tell you the God's honest truth, to trucking companies, the driver is the nut that holds the steering wheel. That includes test drivers from Cummins. I failed one of them. He was scared to death of flammable products, and more worried about that than the traffic around him. I tried to tell him to think of it as a load of produce, but he couldn't. All he could think of was gasoline and explosion. The company gave him to another trainer who passed him. A month later he was involved in very serious chargeable accident, and they let him go. He came with a excellent recommendation from Cummins.
Now I doubt I have told you what you want to hear. I'm a old school truck driver who never went to truck driving school. I've done everything except propane, car hauling, and bull hauling. Have hauled B Train flat bed doubles with 26' lead and 20' pup across Ontario into Michigan hauling steel for Ford and GM, and Chrysler. Payloads ran about 90,000 lbs, plus the weight of the rig and two trailers. Also hauled produce/citrus and other commodities in both reefer and box trailers. And the last 20 + years was hauling gasoline, diesel, asphalt, black oil, JetA, and JP8 and other petroleum products.
Hi PatC,.
You would laugh, as I am mostly in total agreement with your view/opinion. My major trucking experience goes back to early 70's when the last truck I ran was a KW COE w Cat 425 1693TA alias D343.
One point is that we both are old school type relics, with old technology ideas and experience. today, they are selling the new wide based tire, not called super single, and in the attachment I am trying to add, they spell out the newer stuff/info. Give it a read.
I am the lucky one, I was able to get off the road, away from running a refer all over USA, was fun until all the roads looked the same again and again, never home etc....Because I was a newbe driver, I ran south in the summer and Minn/ Wis, ND, SD etc in the winter...
Reason for the luck, I had a skill to go back to and go from there. Always felt sorry for the poor guy who was stuck who wanted to get away from it but had nothing to fall back on.
Anyway, glad to run through this with you, many thanks.
Dave M
There was a FT owner in TN somewhere that changed over. I forget the name but his rims were for sale at the old Kodak location. He may be the only one I have heard of that has switch over. I would think that FT would look at them as an option if they would add to the overall ride or ease of maintenance. I started looking at them to switch out but then decided the costs would have been too high.
I'm not weighting in on this topic but I found some entertaining videos to watch on Michelin's FAQ page: see "question 2":
Michelin Americas Truck Tires X One® Frequently Asked Questions Page (http://www.michelintruck.com/michelintruck/tires-retreads/xone/xOne-faq.jsp)
I had another skill. Ten years in the military and was going to make career of it. But my last five years I was a long haired, bearded, hippy who did not wear a uniform or have to salute anyone, including the high ranking officers. Even had "get out of jail free" credentials. That was between the early trucking.
During my lifetime, I have had several rear tire blowouts with regular tires. Never had any control problem. But I have experienced one steer tire blowout, and that was something I never want to go through again :o!! The rig did not have power steering and almost bit the median strip from the right hand lane. Good thing no one was passing or running beside me! And it really happened so fast that one does not have a lot of time to think while it is happening. Think power steering would have really helped with the handling.
Ok, now my 3 cents worth !!! Dont see this working with our setup with the tag axle thing . But then it might just be the very thing. What if it was changed to A tandem setup on new coaches .?? Maybe that would change the whole thing. I just might have to check it out . It appeals to me after seeing the tire company films . Didn't expect the great results of the testing. My first reaction was no no no .Now I can see the other side of this issue .Something so new just seems too much to grab A hold of at first. It still is A bit of A brain stretch for me .
Thanks Dave,
This is a great article from the ATA certainly puts a new perspective on the discussion. As expected it also addresses issues we do not experience like how many times we can retread our tires. (For most (all?) of us our tires age out before they wear out.)
Speaking of age, my tires are five years old so I have a couple of years to collect more data. It would be great if we could get a definitive study of their use on motorhomes.
Brad, where did you find the company films?
Thanks,
Harvey; drop back to John Fitz post, hit # after the word page. A goodly amount of info .
Thanks Brad (and John). I meant to follow that link, got side tracked, and forgot. Very interesting responses to the issues raised in this discussion.