Splitting this out as its own topic, here's the history
A few more details based on Steve's experience today (he's redoing the AV wiring so he's in the coach for a few hours). At one point when the coach "woke up" to level itself, the back was slightly low so it started inflating. Not only did it raise the rear, but the front of the coach also came up at the same time. The aux compressor continued to run with the rear pretty much inflated all the way, yet because the front had come up the "rear low" amber indicator was lit.
Steve reset the controller to stop the pump. He then put it in auto level again and no "low" indicators came on. Coach was very, very slightly front high and a little curbside low per the 2 foot level. Coach didn't feel significantly out of level.
Next wake up cycle, coach lowered the front back down. Still a touch curbside low. Front to back perfect.
Waiting on the next cycle. It does seem like there's at minimum a problem with leakthrough to the front bags when the rear is being raised.
Input/thoughts/suggestions are always welcome, especially if anyone's seen something like this before.
Michelle
Michelle and Steve,
Gosh, I wish I was an expert on this system, but I'm not. If the system is doing things that it shouldn't be doing then something is definitely wrong (like you didn't know that). The leveling sensor does have some margin of error, in other words the coach could be a bit off level without the mercury in the level sensor completing an electrical circuit causing something to happen. My coach never seems to be exactly level when checked with a carpenters level, although the system thinks the coach is level. I believe that the level sensor turns the yellow lights on and off which in turn triggers some other action like add air, release air, or stop. I know that the excess slope light comes on after approximately 30 minutes of trying to level the coach (extinguish a yellow light). At that point it just shuts off and a new leveling cycle has to initiated (you probably know that too). Just wondering, if a coach with slides is leveled and then the slides extended, does it have to relevel, or if 2 people moved from one side to the other side would that cause a relevel after 30 min. Doesn't seem to have any effect on my non-slide coach.
I bought a mechanics stethoscope today to see if I can find the problem with my right rear corner leaking down. Hope you find a solution to your problem.
Actually, our experience is that when you get the "excess slope" light, the system doesn't try to relevel again. It thinks it's on a slope that it can't get level on.
We've been at this site for 4 hours, and a couple of times the system has exhausted air to lower the front. This last time, though, it saw curbside low plus rear low. First it pumped up the curbside (and you could hear air exhausting somewhere as well). Amber light for curbside goes out and pump shuts off. Then it went to work on the rear. And kept pumping. And pumping. I put the level on the floor and the bubble never moved one iota and we were definitely front high/rear low. So it was definitely pumping both front and back up at the same rate, even though it only should have raised the rear.
Perhaps the right side "raise" solenoid is weakly open in front (since it would have just been open to raise the right side). Perhaps the front regulator (which usually fails by leaking out the dial stem) is the problem. We have a spare of the latter and will try that next.
Hmmm... mechanic's stethoscope. Bet that makes an excellent stocking stuffer at Christmas....
Michelle
Forgot to mention
When Steve installed the new level sensor he did try to adjust it so that with a 4 foot level and the bubble dead center in both axes, the sensor was centered in the adjustment hysteresis.
Sounds like you have a solenoid in one for the HWH manifolds leaking by when in the level mode. Do you have all the manuals on the leveling system? If not you can down load them from HWH for free. Its fairly easy to follow the manual to diagnose the issue, just getting to the f&r manifolds is a pain. Also be aware the system will only Level 4" front to rear and side to side. My bet is one of the travel solenoid's is leaking internally. Remember to block you suspension before working on the air leveling.
That's pretty much what we've been thinking, a solenoid that's not closing properly. We've noticed the issue most frequently (possible always) occurs when the coach has both a low side and low rear. It will get the side to side ok, but then when it switches to raise the rear, that's when the front starts coming up, too.
It's interesting that we noticed we're hearing air exhausting at the rear of the coach even when it's just the front being intentionally lowered. Also, the intentional lowering has a discrete on/off of airflow noise. The rear has a very long duration, gradual sound decrease reminiscent of a dumping the air (as if a valve doesn't close).
We downloaded the relevant manuals for our coach this morning (2000 Series Service manual and the operations manual). First things first, a look at the LEDs in the control box to see if there are any obvious power/ground issues being indicated with the red/yellow LEDs.
Don't worry - always safety first around this coach. No working underneath without blocks and chocks, especially while on the road. Worst case, we're back in Nac next month.
Michelle
Could there be a grounding issue? Maybe the solenoid actuated valves are okay and it's getting noisy input?
James told me that HWH has some separate manuals for Foretravel. You probably already knew that. Here is the link he sent me HWH Operators Manuals for Foretravel (http://www.hwh.com/foretravel3.html).
You may also have HWH's textbook on air leveling systems, but I have attached it anyway. It's dated in '99, but may be of some help to someone. Disregard my highlighting.
Please keep us posted as you progress on this.
Thanks, Dick. It made me check and I'd actually selected the incorrect manual for our system. Looks like the correct one is most likely http://hwhcorp.com/ml26564.pdf (http://hwhcorp.com/ml26564.pdf) (ML26564 - Computerized air leveling with tag axle - 2 room extensions with air seals). What a complete manual! I updated my previous post to remove the incorrect reference.
We were doing the tourist thing today but will report as we learn more. So far, it seems to be that raise mode, and then for the back end, is where the problem occurs. It might be coincident, but it also seems to happen after a side-to-side adjustment occurs. I haven't yet nailed down if it's also following that the side-to-side was completed as a "raise". I
have learned more about the leveling algorithm than I ever planned to :))
We do plan to check all the readily-accessible electrical connections to make sure it's not a grounding issue, as Peter suggested.
Michelle
Adding another observation - we hear this same long duration air release from the rear of the coach when we turn the ignition to the first "on" position (as Steve did tonight so he could turn the air leveling off).
When you turned your leveling system off by way of the ignition, were the slide rooms deployed? Can you turn off the leveling system w/o the ignition "on" procedure? Wondering what would happen then.
Could you just hit the "HWH Reset" button to turn off the auto leveling? Just a thought.
We did that but since we didn't hear a "click" confirming the reset, we went through the ignition (just to the first click, not all the way to start the coach) to be sure.
of course it was pretty late in the evening and we might not have listened closely enough ::)
-M
A small update to the continuing saga...
FOT found several leaks in the rear sixpacks, so all 24 o-rings (2 sixpacks with a Tag) were replaced. We asked that the front sixpack also be checked and no leaks were found. The coach is no longer settling/exhausting frequently and we don't have the long duration "air dump" sound coming out the back.
It was well-behaved for several days at Camp FT, but the sites there don't put us in the configuation that causes problems - curb and rear low.
So of course we came home yesterday. Our street puts us in that configuration. Leveled fine. Even made one adjustment (lowered streetside) after an hour.
This morning is a different story. While the rear hasn't settled down (good, holding air), the slope of the coach matches the slope of the street - almost looking like it's in travel mode. Clearly the front raised overnight.
Sigh. :( Frustrated doesn't begin to describe it. Where's the banging-head-on-wall emoticon when you need it.
Michelle
Hmmm...sounds like the usual technician's approach to repairs...hit the easy and they don't know where else to look for a solution. If I may suggest, this summer when you are in your travels, schedule an appointment at the HWH factory in Moscow Iowa if you want this problem fixed. I think in the long run, it will end up costing you less and provide less hassles IMHO.
Actually, the leaks were pretty significant. Lots of frothy bubbles, and 5 of the 12 were leaking. It held air solid after that and didn't act up for days, so we don't find any issue with the technician or his work. He did a good job. We thought it was fixed as well.
We haven't had good luck getting HWH to return our calls, plus they thought it was the level sensor. Response last October when our slide bladder blew was very disappointing. Not sure we want to drive all the way to Iowa without more of a "warm fuzzy feeling". Steve's going to look at a few more things himself; might even consider a call over to Buddy Gregg in Lewisville since they should have experience with the air leveling on Monaco and Country Coach.
-M
Michelle,
I stopped by HWH last summer, and like you, I did not get a warm fuzzy feeling, I have to assume, I should have made an appointment way ahead of time because they did not like seeing a drop in customer. I had no big issue, I was just hoping for a service person to go over the HWH systems on my coach, naw, that was not going to happen.
Dave
Michelle and Steve,
Have you tried just turning off the system after the coach is level? If it then becomes unlevel after a set time period like 24 hrs, then there must be an air leak. Some other members have said that they turn the level system off after leveling just to keep it from dumping and adding air from a shift of weight in the coach. If it stays level, then one would think the problem is electrical; however, after taking one of the solenoid valves apart and finding that the plastic sealing surface on the piston or armature or whatever it is called, does not always close on the same spot. In other words on one closure it might seal perfectly and then leak on another closure. HWH does not list the piston as a replaceable item, it's a shame that it is not replaceable. No idea if HWH makes the valve themselves, I didn't find one anyplace else with an internet search. I think you have a slide-out, so maybe you can't turn it off for that reason.
I have worked with HWH by phone several times. Getting to talk to someone can be frustrating but once I got to a real person, they have been extremely helpful and accommodating. I was told in one phone conversation that there had been so many layoffs that most of the remaining people are doing three jobs compared to before the recession. If you leave your phone number, they will call you back one time. They will not leave a message. If they can't get you on the phone in that call, they move on to the next customer until you call back.
If you make an appointment so that they can schedule their time I think you will find you will get competent work. On the other hand, my dealings with them was over a year ago. Things may have gotten worse by now.
Jerry,
With the recent o-ring replacement, the coach held air just fine on a relatively level surface. On our street, I'm not surprised there's some settling towards the rear and curb. Normally the front has to be almost as low as it goes and the back quite high for the coach to be level out front of the house.
The recurring, frustrating behavior is that sometimes, possibly exclusively after a curbside raise action, when the system raises the rear, it also raises the front at the same time and rate. So the unlevel front-to-back angle of the coach is maintained, rather than leveling it out. It then goes into "excess slope", because it never changes angle (never achieving level).
It's been doing this since October and really seems like some kind of bleed through either the front raise or (maybe) travel solenoids. It doesn't do the opposite (rear also raising as a result of a front raise). We haven't yet managed to duplicate it with manual leveling actions, but we also haven't wanted to stress/twist the coach unnecessarily.
Michelle
Michelle,
Must be contagious, my 2003 U-320 leveling system starting acting up similarly couple of days ago (mine - rear high, almost fully extended while front low on level site). Yesterday, side to side started acting strange - has drivers side low. Cracked drivers side front window while trying to manually level. Ugh - Now have an appointment at FOT in mid June for both issues..... Bill
I called HWH in January and discovered that if I called at 8:05 a.m. CST time that my phone call was returned within about 30 minutes. The tech I spoke with was very helpful.
I've seen leaking occur on the older Meritor valves depending on where the arm is. For instance I could raise my 93 all the way up, shut it off and it would stay that way for days. Regular leveling, turned off and it would be down on the driver's side tail in 3 days.
Steve & Michelle,
My understanding of how HWH works:
Top two valves of 6-pack are closed when ignition is off and open when ignition is on. Closed top valves keep ride-height valves from controlling air bags. If top valve O-rings are leaking, letting air flow from ride-height valve to air bags when top valve should be closed tight, soap leak test would not see this as there is no air leaking to the atmosphere. And if you are on level ground, the ride-height valves are closed, so all looks good.
You said "Clearly the front raised overnight": Front ride-height valve is always trying to raise whenever coach is low in front, whether ignition on or off, engine running or not. Leaking front top 6-pack valves will raise front air bags to travel position, changing level system setting.
But it also seems that if level system is on, it would wake up and try to re-level coach by dumping air.
Barry
Barry,
This is excellent information - we didn't know this about the ride height valves or the behavior of the six pack. It would also explain why the entire front end raises and not just one side or the other.
Between your post, seeing the internals of the solenoids during the rear six pack o-ring replacement last week, and what Jerry found with his system, we're now honing in on the inner o-rings of the front six-pack. That unit was last rebuilt in 2004 or 2005, but for an external leak. Likely next step will be to replace all O-rings in that one.
WRT the dumping of air to level on wake up, I do know that the system will first try to dump air, then switches to raise if necessary (if it can't get level by dumping air). In a wake cycle, once it has to go into "raise" it will stay in "raise", it will not switch back to "dump". So in our observation of curb low, rear low, first the coach will lower (dump) streetside. If that doesn't bring a side-side level it will then raise curbside. Then after achieving side-side level it will try to raise the rear. It will not try to lower the front on that cycle because it has switched into "raise" mode.
Then when it cannot level it goes into "excess slope" and never tries to automatically level again, until ignition is turned on and the system is reset.
Michelle
You might want to check on that... I think Buddy Gregg closed down their Texas operation and moved back to Tennessee... someone told me that when you call the Texas number, you actually get the office in Tennessee!
Barry,
A followup - your information continues to be on point with our coach in storage for a couple of days. It had raised itself somewhat, but maintained level and never went into excess slope. It adjusted while Steve was working on the in-dash computer/radio even in the "raise curbside, raise rear" sequence that had previously caused the front to raise. Theorizing, I suspect the ride height valve was "satisfied" at some point during the level, unlike out front of our house where the front has to be squatted.
Our front six pack 12 o-ring kit should be here tomorrow.
There will be dinner in your and Cindy's future if this solves it :D
Michelle
Steve and Michelle,
I think you asked me earlier about the numbers of the o-rings I bought at Crump Plumbing Supply. The small one was 015 and the large one was 028. Both have a cross section of 1/16". Cost was .25 each. I bought a few more for spares. Outer o-ring leaks should be easy to detect with soapy water, inner is more difficult. An inner leak on the travel or raise solenoid could raise a low air bag. Same thing could happen with a leak at the valve seat. In my case the leaking valve seat on a lower solenoid, kept lowering that corner. BTW I can not level fore and aft in the street in front of my house; I can level side to side. Yesterday leveled it side to side and turned it off, today it is still level.
Jerry,
Karma to you!
Michelle
Michelle,
I have been feeling the frustration your having, was going to suggest that just maybe there might be a loose wire or one rubbing on a ground somewhere. I know these types of things can be brutal. We do a lot of control work and sometimes you find some unlikely issues.
Anyway it got me started to wonder about my air compressor running every few hours, so yesterday I grabbed one of my employees with great ears, young feller, small, 125 lbs, 5'3" right size for lots of things. Anyway using soapy spray, found only one leak, on the air tank behind front axle, one fitting was leaking, with about half a turn, it stopped. Went over every air line we could find. Have not heard the compressor since. Wonder if it quit.
Good luck
We got the official HWH RAP6554 kit today (about .65 for each o-ring) and I measured them with my vernier dial calipers.
I came up with a cross section of .068 which correlates to a 1/16 0-ring. A 1/16 O-ring is listed as .070 actual on the AS568A chart.
The small one I measured as .688 OD which corresponds to a #015 which is listed as .691 OD on the AS568A chart
The large one I measured as 1.498 OD which corresponds to a #028 which is listed as 1.504 OD on the AS568A chart
So I think we can pretty much confirm that those are the proper O-rings ^.^d
Geez! Was it so tight under there that you had to use soapy spray on the young feller to get him to the right places to listen? Did you tie him to a stick and poke him up near the fittings? (Kent made me ask those questions.) :P :P
Don't blame me for those questions, however they were pretty good. OK, I'll take credit for it!!!
Dave, what kind of soap did you spray him with?
No soap, heck we just smeared chicken fat on him, and in he went, getting him out was real tough tho, he did not want to come back out until I promised him a drum stick.
You never know about em red neck kids.
And yet another update.... (and thank you for indulging my "thinking out loud")
it's starting to look like there were multiple problems, several of which are fixed, at least one still remains.
No more listing to curbside rear and going into excess slope. Rear sixpack o-rings fixed that.
Haven't been in the situation where the rear has had to pump up while camped/level, so don't know if the front sixpack o-rings fixed the front raising with the rear pump up.
Long duration rear exhaust is back
Michelle
More data for anyone following....
Yesterday Steve aired up, then releveled the coach then shut off the leveling system. Both tanks at 122 psi. I measured the airbags plate-to-plate (with the exception of the tag ones, which are not easy to access safely).
Driver Front 8.25 and 8.75
Passenger Front 8.375 and 8.125
Driver rear 4.875 and 4.625
Passenger rear 5.125 and 5.0
This morning. 24 hours later. Coach appears lower behind, feels slightly lower behind. Both air tanks at 69 psi. The coach is not resting on the frame/tires anywhere.
Driver Front 11.25 and 11.75 an increase of approximately 3 inches and looks insanely inflated
Passenger Front 9.625 and 9.75 and increase of approximately 1.5 inches and looks quite inflated
Driver rear 4.875 and 4.75 roughly no change
Passenger rear 5.0 and 4.875 roughly no change
Steve manually releveled (lowering the front) and shut the system off again (had the long duration exhaust sound from the rear when he turned the ignition on to level). Air tanks both remained at 69 psi.
So what would cause the front to raise 1.5-3 inches even with the leveling system turned off? Front has all new 6-pack o-rings. Bad solenoids allowing leak through?
Michelle
Michelle,
Could be a bad/weak spring on the plunger that holds the "O" ring next to the seat/seal. (I don't have a pic. of the part) This could cause the air to leak by. If it was a bad solenoid (electromagnet) it shouldn't pull the plunger and let in air to re level. Hope this makes sense.
Pamela & Mike
Pamela,
Would you suspect the raise solenoids more than the travel ones since both sides measured above typical ride height (IIRC that would be 8 1/2" between the plates), the driver's side especially at 11+ inches? Or do the ride height valves not limit this when the leveling system is off?
I don't know if the solenoid plungers can be rebuilt with new springs and seats or not (if those parts are available from HWH). If they are, we'd likely buy a couple full solenoids plus a couple sets of parts to rebuild the old ones to carry as spares.
Michelle
Steve and Michelle,
Thinking about your problem, it appears that you have at least 2 leaks. Air is leaking into the front air bags and leaking out of the rear air bags. Since you have replaced all the o-rings, the leak most likely is at the seating surface of the valve/valves. For each set of air bags (2) left front, right front, etc. 2 solenoid valves admit air and 1 valve exhausts air. When in the travel mode the travel solenoid valves are always open and the HCV admits and exhausts air. When all power is off, all the solenoid valves are closed. The leveling system when in use closes and opens the other 4 solenoid valves on a manifold to admit and release air on an individual basis for a set of bags, but more than one can be open depending on buttons pushed or what the auto leveling is doing. The HCV valves are always trying to exhaust or add air except when in the neutral (correct ride height) position. With the travel solenoids closed the HCV's cannot do either. A leaking travel solenoid would send air to the HCV, but the HCV unless defective would not raise the air bags past travel height. If it maintains the proper ride height in the travel mode the HCV is okay. Therefore it appears that both front "air in" manifold solenoids are leaking. You did not say if one rear side was lower than the other, if so this can also cause a difference in the height of the front air bags. Since the rear is lower, suspect a leak in an exhaust solenoid there. On my coach the top solenoids are the travel solenoids; the middle solenoids are for exhausting air; and the bottom solenoids admit air. Could be different on your coach, but most likely it is the same.
Try the same procedure tonight except after the coach is level, pump down the brake tank pressure to about 60 psi and see what happens. The front bags should not inflate as air will not be available to inflate them. It is possible that they might leak down though if pressure in the bags is greater than in the tank.
The solenoids can be disassembled to inspect them. They are rather simple devices. Just unscrew the steel part from the brass part. There is a cone shaped seat, a piston like plunger with a plastic insert that rests on the seat when closed and a spring to keep it closed when the solenoid coil is not energized. The wiring does not need to be disconnected to remove the coil which is held on by one nut. Then the valve can be unscrewed from the manifold. The manifold should not be pitted where the o-rings seat. A little grease on the o-rings is recommended. If the piston plastic seating surface has more than one indentation from the cone shaped seat, that could be the source of the leak. That was the case on one of my solenoids. I was able to correct the leak by chucking the piston in a lathe and removing just enough of the plastic insert so that is was smooth again. The internal parts of the solenoid are not available except for o-rings, and the coil, from what I have been able to find out.
I just upped you karma 1.
Where was this very concise and true message when I started with my problem last December.
It took better than a month, but I finally relized just exactly what you just said. It is really
a simple system to troubleshoot now. ( except for the auto level which depends on the brain & sensor)
Very well stated, Jerry. Thank you for sorting out the facts of the leveling system and writting 'em down in an order that makes sense! Karma to you.
Jerry,
Thank you, great explanation - that's also what Pamela and Mike are suggesting via PM.
I don't think we have a leak out the rear at this point, although we definitely did prior to replacing the rear o-rings. After 48 hours, the 4 accessible airbags at the rear are all still basically the same. The coach doesn't appear to be resting on the rails; there is room above the tires and all 4 bags have decent pressure (by feel). Now, I couldn't reach to measure the tag airbags...
The coach does go to correct travel height all around (8.5") and stay there when in travel mode. Going from travel height to level on our current site, the front airbags remained at travel height of 8.5" and the rear lowered to approximately 5" at the start of the test. (this site is very slightly front low) After 24 hours, the rear was still about 5", the front had raised above travel height, more on one side than the other. (11"+ driver's side, 9"+ passenger).
After Steve manually leveled yesterday we shut the leveling system off again. At the start, pressure on both air tanks was 69 psi. The aux compressor came on twice in the 24 hours. It will only pressurize to about 80-90 psi (as opposed to the 120+ of the main engine compressor, which we used yesterday to go to travel mode). With that lower pressure, this morning the rear was still the same 5" and the front was again around 11" driver's side, 8.75" passenger side and the air tanks were 85 psi.
We have just releveled (letting the system do so), this time without the engine running to keep the tank pressures lower, and have pulled the fuse for the aux compressor. I think that should prevent pressure build up in the A and B tanks but still allow the pump to run if needed for the slide bladder seals.
Tomorrow we'll order a couple replacement solenoids. Since we're traveling, resurfacing the seals on the old ones will have to wait since Steve didn't bring the Rikon or the Nova DVR XP with us :)) )
Michelle
Anyone have a "best price" supplier for the HWH manifold normally closed solenoids? I think it's RAP1940.
Thanks!
Interesting discussion. In NM with ground much higher rear than front, so the bags on front had to do a lot of lifting, I heard in morning a lot of air dumped from the front, then the auxilliary compressor came on and per yellow lights was responding to low front or low driver side. The frequency of this behavior increased to every thirty minutes for a few cycles. Then just the aux compressor ran at times. I was worried I would not be able to drive home, so talked to MOT. They had me turn on the ignition, turn off the HWH system and watch the coach for three hours. Coach stayed level. So, I guess, not an air leak? In fact, I left it that way five days until drove home and with a level on the dash, the coach stayed level just fine with, of course, no dumping of air and no aux compressor coming on. It is now at MOT to try to figure what was going on, but by turning on ignition, turned off the HWH, then off the ignition, MOT gave temporary relief. (Travel mode coming home worked just fine). Hope this helps. Mike