Greetings everyone,
Beginning to go through my 1991 U225 in detail. As usual, the more I look, the more I find to do. :D
The very first area I need to address is batteries. I've been reading and researching and considering what to do, and have come up with a plan. As this is my first coach, I would appreciate the wisdom and insight of those who have travelled this path before me, in critiquing my plan. I should mention I'm planning to boondock as much as possible, and I'm on a limited budget. However, I do understand the need to spend money in the right places. As I am mostly self-sufficient I can do most all the work myself.
I have two no-name 8D wet cells in there now. The starting battery is relatively new; the coach battery is toast. The top section of the fiberglass battery box is missing, and the bottom lip is broken off from trying to remove/install these 160lb behemoths. The idea of needing a forklift to replace batteries doesn't sit well with me.
I've been back and forth with what to do - and at this point I'm inclined to ditch wet cells altogether, thus eliminating any gassing or venting issues. My battery bank is all important, so my choices at this point are - two Concorde Lifeline 8D AGM (255amp/hour@20 hrs) coach batteries, and an Optima bluetop D31M AGM starting battery. Not sure if the batteries should be encased, but NOCO makes a nice polypropolene box for two 8Ds, and a box for the Optima is easy enough. To this I'm adding a Magnum Pure Sine Wave 2000w inverter/charger, with gen start and monitoring modules. Also planning to swap out most or all of the coach and bay lighting with LEDs.
I'd like to mount the batteries on a slideout tray for access and servicing, using some welding cable as flexible extensions. The original cable would be terminated at junction blocks, with the extensions running from there to the batteries. I can fab the slideout and the wiring easily enough. The only issue I see is - can the bays handle the stress, and what to attach the slides to? I suppose a call to Foretravel will answer those questions.
Same applies to the Onan Emerald Plus LP generator. I need to reinsulate that bay (and the engine bay - hello Dynamat and Dynaliner), and wish to do a full servicing/tuneup on the generator. Not a whole lot of room in there to work on it - a slideout would be nice, but is it doable?
I've searched up and down but don't see any posts relating to making these mods on the older coaches. Any thoughts or comments are more welcome. Thanks. :)
Steve
Steve,
I am running virtually the same set up you are suggesting-- two Lifeline AGM 8D batteries for the house and two group 34 Optimas for starting.
When redoing the generator area, install an additional ground wire (battery cable) between generator case and good clean chassis metal/ground. OE was for the ground circuit to be through the bearings of the slide out tray-- not a very good ground path.
Also, many of us with the propane generators have converted from liquid LP to high pressure vapor to eliminate the clogging of the on-generator regulator. A very easy, inexpensive modification. For more information: 6.5 Onan hard to start also (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=7925.msg34749#msg34749).
Brett
Everything you've chosen sounds great. Although you will save money with the wet cells, your fussing requirements with them goes way up.
You don't need a box with AGM/Gells because they don't gas while charging (or if they do, you've got serious issues). Your choice here. If you can find a spot for a 3rd 8D you won't regret it!
Make sure you check your alternator output so that it doesn't overcharge the AGMs while you are on the road. If it was properly set for wet cells, it would. You'll set up proper charging by the Magnum when you install it.
Consider a trik-l-start, and consider solar. Per watt prices are still coming down, state and federal tax advantages may apply.
200 watts of solar will go a long way towards reducing the run time of that Onan with good power management.
Definitly 3-8Ds, or 8-6volt batteries depending on space as you will get a lot more AH with these and easy to lift. Also check what the standby power use is with that magnum as keeping that as low as posible is why I did the "add another inverter" modification. Solar is obviously a good way to go as you can be refreshing the batteries at no cost and it works while you sleep too!(once the cost of them is covered).
Led's will make a saving as you know too. The whole problem is you have to spend a ton of money to save a bit at a time.
I hope my new systems work to my advantage.
Hey Brett; This is the first time I saw this problem mentioned;
"When redoing the generator area, install an additional ground wire (battery cable) between generator case and good clean chassis metal/ground. OE was for the ground circuit to be through the bearings of the slide out tray-- not a very good ground path."
Thanks for putting it in your response, I know it will help with my previous problems....
Dave, I changed my two wet cell batteries for two 8D AGM (one coach one chassis) but never did anything about the alternator. I feel really stupid but didn't realize this was necessary. I know I have a problem with the chassis battery as once it is removed from the Trik L Start charger for any lenght of time I can see a drop in voltage but even after a few days it will still start right up. I have been planning on replacing it soon. What do I need to do? I had to replace the alternator on my trip last year. The repair shop sold me a Delco 28SI High Output Alternator. They initially forgot to run a jumper between the posts as it must be externally excited (which cost me another day on the road). It seems to have been all good since. My coach battery is fine. It is on a new PD smart charger 24/7 with the Trik L Start set-up to the chassis battery.
Dwayne,
Not sure what the problem is or if there is one.
When the charger is OFF, the batteries will slowly discharge-- partially from self discharge rate and partially from what we call "parasitic loads". That is those loads that continue without your being able to do anything about them.
They include propane detector, Allison ECM memory, refrigerator memory, radio memory, etc.
So, dropping from 12.8 (fully charged 12 volt battery AT REST) to 12.2 VDC (50% discharged 12 volt battery AT REST) in 10-14 days is not abnormal.
As far as the alternator, what voltage are you reading at each battery with the alternator running, engine at high idle? If 13.5 VDC plus you are fine.
Brett
Thank you all for the replies. Will add a grounding strap to the gennie, and will see about converting into a slideout. Was not aware of needing to adjust the alternator voltage - will make a point of checking it. Have looked at the Trick-L-Start, and it seems like a good investment given my intent to park for weeks at a time.
I would like to run a lot of batteries, but finances dictate otherwise. Going to have to stick with two coach batteries for now. I could buy a lot of T-105s for the price of two Lifelines, but as Dave has pointed out there's a lot more fussing around. I bought my first Optima battery in 1993, a redtop. It was transferred into two other vehicles over the years, the last one I sold in 2009, the battey still going strong.
I've examined charts of typical power usage of the on-board equipment, and have tried to visualize what I'd be using day-to-day. The first thing I'm probably going to ditch is the icemaker. I reckon a couple of trays in the freezer will supply all the ice I might want, and a pitcher of filtered water in the fridge works too. No coffeemaker - going to go back to the "old days" of a percolator pot on the stove or a small fire. Don't use the microwave much either. I'm looking to camp out mostly, using as little energy as possible. For laundry, out in the boons, I'm going the way of my grandmother - scrub board, washtub, and a clothesline.
I looked into solar extensively, and from all the information gathered, I remember the following points made by people who have been living with it awhile:
1. The ROI will likely exceed the life of the solar panels.
2. You still need to run the genset to provide the power to charge in the flood stage.
3. Solar panels will only save about 10% of generator runtime, during the final charging stages.
4. If you're not tiliting the panels to track the sun, you'll lose 40% or more of the output capability.
I don't have any personal experiences with this, so I can't argue the above points, but I'll take the word of those who've been there. Some of this info I got from this board and the archives, the rest elsewhere. If your expereinces are different, I'd sure like to hear about it.
Solar panels dictate parking in the sun all day. Which may mean having to run the genset and roof A/Cs. I'd rather park in the shade, and open the windows. I have some ideas about a portable panel system which could be set up in the sun, and fitted with photocells and stepper motor to track the sun's position, but that's a project for future consideration. :)
Steve
Steve,
When I bought my U300, the house 8Ds were shot. I lucked into 6 solar system batteries that fit into the old space with a little forward extension of the racks. We do nothing but dry camping so I was looking for something that would take a lot of discharge cycles. My back is not what it used to be so new 8Ds were out because of the weight. Yes, I could have someone install them but I don't do that. Yellow tops were also an option but cost (around $200 each) and 36 month warranty was against them. I probably would have gone with 6 conventional Duralast 27 series with 7 year pro-rated warranty but I found the batteries shown in the photos. The Duralasts are about $80 each. I have had great luck with them and use three for my engine batteries. For lowest cost for what you get, Sam's Club has 8Ds for just over $100 each. They last a long time and you don't have to worry about a lot of cables or one going down and taking the other five with it. Lots of choices.
Pierce & Gaylie
93' U300/36
Thanks for that Pierce and Gayle :)
Will look into the Duralasts. From what I've read regarding Sams's Club /Costco type batteries, it's somewhat of a hit and miss deal. I do understand most batteries come from a handful of factories, with various labels slapped on them. Going to have to visit the local store to see what's on hand - can't find anything online. And from what's been posted here - yes, I will be checking the date codes.
I'd rather get away from 8Ds - my back isn't what it used to be either. But cost wise, it looked like the least expensive solution. Going with smaller batteries would eliminate the need for a slideout. I can just remove what's left of the fiberglass box, and build a tray to hold the new batteries. That will save some time and money as well.
I guess I need to better educate myself and shop around more before putting down the money. Time spent is money saved. Need to first measure the available space, to see what could fit. Will post what I come up with, and include before and after pics.
Thanks again everyone for your help. This forum is gold - you can't buy this stuff anywhere. :D
Steve
Steve,
IMO, you don't need trays if go with AGM's - there's not much to service on them. Trays also cost you some vertical space. I removed my fiberglass box when I went to AGMs. I'm not sure if your U225 is the same but the bottom half of mine is glued down with about 6 dabs of silicone sealer - it's held down pretty good - wedge a 3" flexible putty to slice through it. I patched the old vent holes in the floor and rear bulkhead walls. I made a 3/4" plywood deck and used 1x1's as a borders to hold the batteries in place. I routered 1/4" radii on everything and finished it with a clear urethane. The deck is screwed down into the steel frame members in bay floor in 4 places. You can see in the corner of the pic below that I took for another post.
I then make a another deck that sits on top of the batteries for storing misc stuff like chords and hoses.
I am thinking that Steve has a U225. If so his battery box is completely different from the U300's or at least the location and storage of the batteries on my 93, U225 were totally different from the location of my 93, U300 house batteries . There is no battery box on my U300. The house batteries are stored behind the rear wheels in open steel racks on the drivers side. On my 93, U225 the batteries were in the compartment in front of the rear passenger side wheels inside a fiberglass box that was vented into the passenger rear wheel well. If this is what Steve's layout is, then he is very limited on the alterations he can make to his current layout.
Thanks gentlemen.
Yup - it's a 225. Only so much space to work with. The oriiginal box looks as though it would hold three 8Ds. I can see where the back of the lower half of the box has been pop riveted to the frame. Good to know about the silicone below. Removing the box will buy a little more space, but I also need to leave room for the inverter/charger.
I must have read your thread on the platform you made Kent - because that's what I had in mind - 3/4 plywood base, some pine strips to keep everything in place, few coats of poly over that. I was thinking I should leave the rear wheelwell vent open, but I'll follow your lead on that. The deck idea is genius.
My most puzzling issue - how do you know where the steel frame members are? And what did you use for fasteners? A self-tapping bolt?
I'm full of newbie questions. Picturing myself drilling into air and out the bottom of the coach. I have the same phobia at the moment about drilling into the roof to add more buttons for the sagging headliner. :)
Searched some more on AGM deep cycle batteries. Keep seeing Optima and Lifeline come up over and over. The only other ones I hit on occasionally are Rolls ($$$), and Deka. Not too many to choose from, it seems. More searching to do.
Steve
Steve, I love compliments on my creative work but I think the platform you mentioned was made by John Fitz. He would have to answer those questions about attachment. I never altered my battery box on my 225. I would want the missing battery box enclosure if I were to use lead acid batteries and I would use the vent for the box. If you go AGM or Gel you have many more options.
Good Luck!!
Well, goodness, that was a DOH moment. :-[ Forgive me John. Getting folks names mixed up is not a good way to get to know people. My apologies.
Very nicely done. Am thinking a magnet should help locate the frame rails under the fiberglass in the bay area.
The way things are going at the moment, it will be another week or so before I'll have something happening with this. Will post back with details in the hopes it will help other folks out.
Steve
No problem Steve.
Yep, that's what I use, but it won't work on the roof (aluminum framing) - maybe someone else know a good trick to find the aluminum frame members? The only other way to see the aluminum framing is if the condensation has left "shadows" on the exterior of the fiberglass roof- then with measurements, transfer the postions to the inside. The visibility of this is always best when the roof is dirty. Like when I parked underneath a eucalyptus tree in San Diego:(picture below) - Yuk!
If you need a real good connection: Knurled Rivet Nuts
McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/3269/=c37ru6)
I just used regular sheetmetal screws (#12) for attaching the deck down to the floor since there's no pull out force just shear force.
Here's a related topic on that:
Compartment Bays (fiberglass panels) (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=12152.msg62799#msg62799)
Thanks John.
I used rivnuts a fair bit in my days as an aircraft mechanic. I also shop McMaster Carr. Small world. :)
As to the battery upgrade, at this point it looks like I am going with the Concorde Lifelines, as AGM wins out over gel in colder temps, which I anticipate in my travels. Also still keen on an Optima starting battery, likely a 27F Yellow top. The work begins next week. Pics will be posted.
Steve
Yesterday afternoon I finally found some time to do a battery area recon. The coach battery measured 8.1 volts. Toast. The starting 8D wet cell measured 12.65 volts. Still good.
What's left of the battery box, and the area beside it sure is crusted with acid residue. Yuck. First step is removing the batteries, the box, and cleaning everything very thoroughly (need lots of baking soda). Then fabricate a tray, and refit. Going to begin with a new starter battery, moving the good wet cell to the coach position until I get my hands on a pair of 8D Lifelines. Fortunately, the best online price I've found for the Concorde Lifeline 8Ds ($625) happens to be a distributor just a few miles away from me. They also offer free shipping, and volume discounts --> Tri State Battery Online Catalog (http://www.tristatebattery.com/product_info.php?cPath=36_37_102&products_id=785) . Going to see about a cash deal for two units that I'll pick up myself.
I've decided on an Optima Yellow Top combination starting/deep cycle battery as a starting battery. It's the biggest one they make, with 830 CCA (@ 0 F) and 1025 CA @ 32 F. This is a relatively new product. Should do the job. Found the best price, with free shipping, at bigtimebattery.com, for $195. Ordered it this morning. --> Optima D27F Yellow Top 8037-127 Free Shipping (http://bigtimebattery.com/store/d27.html?__utma=1.613329832.1304118946.1304118946.1304118946.1&__utmb=1&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1304118946.1.1.utmccn%3D(referral)%7Cutmcsr%3Dbigtimebattery.com%7Cutmcct%3D%2F%7Cutmcmd%3Dreferral&__utmv=-&__utmk=177327782) . This battery is not listed in the catalog, but the linked page came up when I did a search.
Will post pics as I go along.
Steve
Hello again,
It's been an enlightening day. Amazing what you can learn with just one phone call. I called Foretravel today to ask about putting the LP generator on a slide - and was told it's not an issue relative to the loading of the framing in the bay area.
Then I had a long talk with Mike Grimes in the parts department. He was a most helpful gentleman, and answered all my questions and dug up all the little bits I needed to fix up the coach. I also learned they do stock the Koni shocks for the older Foretravels, at a good price, and you get the Motorcade discount to boot.
Just for giggles I asked the price of the two piece fiberglass battery box - it was $1200. A lot cheaper going with a sealed battery bank. ;)
I mentioned my plan to go with AGMs. Mike wasn't keen on AGMs. Seems that they've had so many failures and problems with AGMs they are no longer using them. He strongly recommended gels for coach batteries, either MK/Deka or Exide Prevailer. He said the Optima as a starting battery will work out well.
Based on all he told me, I'm changing direction. Did some digging this afternoon. The Prevailers in an 8D size aren't readily available, which might make sourcing replacements in the event of a warranty problem an issue. Found a good price on the MKs from a solar outlet in MA, actually less than the AGMs, and I can pick them up from a local distribution outlet and save the freight costs.
Onwards and upwards.
Steve
Am delighted to hear Mike in Parts also telling the truth about the AGM batteries :o
It's odd - the Optima redtop (AGM) I bought in 1993 was still going strong 16 years later. My limited experience with small gels had a high failure rate. Hence my preference for AGMs. I did see your comments in the other subforum about gels vs AGMs and that did get me to look at everything again.
I do see now a gel's longevity is mostly a matter of not overcharging them. I'll be making sure the inverter will be set up correctly, and will check and adjust alternator charging voltage accordingly.
Steve
It's odd - the Optima redtop (AGM) I bought in 1993 was still going strong 16 years later. My limited experience with small gels had a high failure rate. Hence my preference for AGMs. I did see your comments in the other subforum about gels vs AGMs and that did get me to look at everything again.
Steve, last year I removed my original (may '93) Optima Redtop's at the advise of the electric shop where I had the Generator overhauled. They were still starting good. I replaced them with Redtop, figured I'd be dead by the time they failed again
I now use them in shop for backup power supply
I have been following this topic and others relating to batteries for a while as I just (6 weeks ago) had to replace my batteries. I heard AGM were the best then Gell are better (actually it had the original Gells in I was chucking)so I decided to go the way of calling the battery manufacturers Engineers online and again it whent both ways. I called a few suppliers up and again-mixed opinions. One supplier told me about Haze Batteries that would outlast anything else.(never had heard of them before-German design) and they do look good on paper, but if a warranty issue came up they may be hard to replace. AMSOLAR in Oregon who put my solar in suggested Lifeline AGM. Just the other day when talking to Batterystuff.com again in Oregon regarding a Power-Pulse unit to stop Sulphation I mentioned what I had done as far as solar and the new AGM 8D Lifelines he said quote "well you have the best quality batteries you can buy so it is worth protecting them more".
Seems to me to be a personal choice that is very much affected by how you look after them whatever you go with . One point that that I question at Foretravel, when we were there last Nov' and looking at the new (being built)IH45 I was sure the batteries are AGM Lifelines so also used that as a guide too!! Maybe the Gells and AGMs look similar on the covers? We will find out in a few years if I did the right thing.
Glad to see I'm not the only one that's been confused. I too bit the bullet today and ordered new ones, but I went the other way and got gels. That's what it has now and they lasted at least 5 years. I would also assume my chargers are setup properly. I have been concerned about the charging voltage of the engine alternator. The starting batteries are wet cell, so either they are being undercharged, or the gels have been being overcharged. Next nice day I'll start it up and see what's happening. Another thing I've learned from these posts, apparently "deep cycle" doesn't mean what I thought it meant. I've always thought that as long as it had voltage it was okay but now find there's a definite limit to how much you should allow them to discharge. But how does one control that? I don't have the auto start generator, so the batteries are essentially in free fall when not being constantly monitored. Is there an alarm setup that could be wired in to go off to wake me up in the middle of the night???
You can add autostart for a couple hundred...
Sounds like a new topic....
Hi Gayland,
Is your coach equipped with an inverter/charger? If so, as Dave mentioned, you can usually add a generator start module to kick on when the batteries reach a certain discharge point (based on the battery voltage).
My 91 did not come with an inverter. After reading and researching I've settled on a Magnum 2000W PSW model. It comes with a programmable remote; adding the optional gen start module and battery monitor module makes the whole thing automatic and prevents either overcharging or discharging too far.
At this moment I am planning on the Optima AGM starting battery and two MK 8D gels. The gels need a lower charge voltage, so will adjust the alternator and inverter/charger lower for the gels. It's still enough voltage off the alternator to charge the AGM, and am going to get that small (can't remember the name) device that connects from the coach battery to the starter battery to trickle charge the start battery when the inverter is charging the coach batteries.
Hope this helps.
Steve
Steve,
It's called a trikl-charge (usually installed at the battery isolator), which charges the start battery with a minimal amperage from the coach batteries provided that the trikl-charge "sees" a charge from either shore or generator power.
That's the one. Thanks. ;D
Merle - Yes, I have a Inverter/Charger, but don't understand what that has to do with the generator auto start. Perhaps you can elaborate. I have the Freedom 20 heart inverter setup. I've checked both the charging voltage from it and from the engine alternator. They both are under 14 volts with no load so I assume that is acceptable for the Gel batteries. I'm not finding any need for charging the start batteries while in storage, they stay up just fine for months. I did find that I lose a volt between the batteries and the automotive dash gauge, not sure why that would be.
Thanks John.
Sealing everything up as I go. Definitely going to plug those drain holes. I think if I was going to use a box again, I'd likely go a different route than the $1200 it would cost for a Foretravel replacement.
The possibility of water getting underneath the decking is another reason I decided to use PT material. It adds about 30 lbs to the bay. With the Optima starting battery, the Magnum inverter (near future) and two 8D sealed batteries, the weight works out pretty close to what three 8Ds would weigh.
Steve
Steve, the converter on my 93, U225 was under the step into the coach. It was accessed by crawling in the bay on the drivers side, not an easy job.
You should only disconnect the converter if the new inverter is also a charger. I didn't see what kind of inverter you purchased. If it is a inverter/charger, you definitely should remove the old converter. If it is just an inverter you will still need a converter. I would recommend getting a smart converter as soon as possible. The old ones will damage the Yellow Top.
I would also be concerned about having the new inverter in an open battery compartment. I think you said you put the 8D Lead Acid back in the coach. If so, the gases released can corrode connections very rapidly. Bad connections can damage the new inverter as well as other electrical functions. FWIW
Thank you gentlemen.
Kent - as John mentioned the wet cell is only in there for a week or so to supply coach power while I sorted out some internal systems. Replaced the bathroom fan today and put in a new backup camera/monitor system - needed power for that. I expect to have gels in by the end of next week.
So under the step is where that converter is. At least it's out of the weather. I believe I'll follow John's lead and just cut power to it via the breaker, leaving it in as an emergency backup for charging.
I haven't bought the inverter yet, but planning on a Magnum PSW 2012 2000w inverter/charger, with gen start module. There is enough room behind the Optima to mount it flat with the 3 inches of airspace around for airflow per the install docs. I am going to look at adding a 12 volt squirrel cage or centrifugal blower connected to the rear facing vent that would help keep air moving through the bay when the inverter is switched on. Need to look into a subpanel for the inverter output. Would like to run four circuits out of eight off the inverter.
Interesting that you did away with the isolator John. I can see advantages to that.
Steve