Anyone have suggestions as to whether or not a Nanopulser would be a good thing for my house batteries?
I never heard of a Nanopulser until it appeared on a thread about keeping finicky batteries alive and well. No AGMs in my FT, but the gell cells are getting old, and an $80 investment might be a good idea if it helps keep my house batteries usable for a few more years.
I think I'm gonna have to do some research on this topic. Do gel cell batteries sulfate? I'm asking as I begin to google.
I have a BatteryMINDer connected to my chassis batteries. I use it to keep the batteries from discharging while the coach is parked or stored and connected to shore power. Works great. This BatteryMINDer also claims to sweep the battery with high frequency pulses in the same way as a Nanopulser. I do not know if it does any good, but the batteries have been as strong as ever since I installed the device.
I ask about the Nanopulser because it might be a good idea for my 8D gell house batteries. On the other hand, another BatteryMINDer would be cheaper and might do the same thing (if it can handle the load of 3 8Ds in parallel)
By the way, a bit of history. When I purchased the (then five year old) coach, the chassis batteries only worked to start the engine unaided by the boost switch if less than a day had elapsed since driving the coach. I discovered one of the three paralleled chassis batteries had a shorted cell. I replaced just that one battery with an Optima blue-top I had on hand, and all have worked very nicely for the past three years. It just might be that the conditioning pulses have breathed new life into the original two batteries.
I think GEL batteries do not tend to sulfate as easily as wet cell.
I believe it is correct that gel cell batteries do not sulfate as quickly as wet cell or AGM batteries...but this is anecdotal on my part. The number of increased number of cycles that a gel cell has over AGM or wet cell would indicate to me that the sulfation is less on gel cell. And, since sulfation is the primary reason for shortened battery life, therefore my belief that gel cells are superior for house battery applications.
All this said, the use of a nanopulsing device could improve the life and performance of gel cell batteries. This type of charger could improve the performance of the AGM & wet cell batteries as well.
Check these other devices as well:
Pulse Tech Smart Battery Chargers (http://www.batterystuff.com/battery-chargers/brands/pulse-tech/)
It has been my understanding and practice to "Equalize" Lead Acid Batteries every few months. THis is done by raising the voltage to a much higher level for a time, on a 12 volt battery, raise voltage to about 15-16 volts for half hour. This is done to reduce the sulfation buildup.
This would work on the Flooded Cell and the AGM type. However there are warnings about "DO NOT GO ABOVE 14.2 VDC on the Gel cell type. DO NOT equalize Gel Cell Batteries.
I am not amazed to see a gadget that claims miracles, but I do not feel there is one magic fixed cure for all batteries.
As usual FWIW
That is what is so great about the Progressive Dynamics Converter/Charger for those of us with older coaches and older technology converter/chargers. The PD 9100 and 9200 for wet cells and gel cells is similiar to a smart charger and has a "Charge Wizard ". "The Charge Wizard is a patented microprocessor-controlled circuit built into all the PD9200 Series converters. The Charge Wizard constantly monitors the RV battery voltage and then selects one of three charging voltages and one of four operating modes to properly re-charge or maintain the RV battery. The addition of the Charge Wizard makes all our 9200 Series converters an intelligent battery charger. It will safely and rapidly recharge a discharged battery by automatically selecting the Boost Mode (14.4V) to rapidly re-charge the battery to 90% of full charge. Once the battery reaches 90%, the Charge Wizard automatically selects the Normal Mode (13.6V) to safely complete the charge. The Storage Mode (13.2V) is automatically selected after 30 hours of non-use of the 12-volt RV electrical systems. The lower charging voltage in the Storage Mode of of operation reduces battery gassing and water usage, while maintaining the charge. Every 21 hours when the system is operating in the Storage Mode, the Charge Wizard will automatically switch to the Desulfation Mode of operation. The Desulfation Mode increases the charging voltage up to 14.4 volts for 15 minutes. This increased voltage mixes up the battery electrolyte and prevents battery stratification and the resulting problems of battery sulfation."
I read the Nanopulser FAQ at :: NANOPULSER.COM.SG :: (http://www.nanopulser.com.sg/faq.htm)
I think it is worth taking a chance, it might help me get a few more years out of my original-equipment gel cell 8D batteries.
I went ahead and placed my order. $85 with shipping here:
Nanopulser - Battery Conditioner (http://www.goodboatgear.com/detail/9822/%20Nanopulser%20%20-%20Battery%20Conditioner)
Even it it gives me another year on a set of three 8D batteries, I feel it is money well spent.
I plan to let the coach sit 24 hours after turning off the converter/charger with the vent fan and some lights on, trying for a constant 10A draw from the house battery (I'll measure the current draw with a clamp-on ammeter), then measure the voltage at the battery terminals. Then with the nanopulser installed for a week, rerun the test. I'll report back with the results. I'm hoping for a slight increase of battery voltage. If the results look good, I'll rerun the test a few weeks later.
By the way, this review helped me decide:
http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/library/genetech_nanopulser_recommend.pdf (http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/library/genetech_nanopulser_recommend.pdf)
Best price I could find, too!
Tom,
Does this device need a 120 VAC source to work?
No - it draws 12V, 40 milliamps from the battery and returns a high frequency signal to it.
It SLOWLY conditions a battery/bank (ex: 1000 amp-hour bank, 4-6 weeks).
Since my coach sits in storage most of the time on a solar trickle charge, I can condition my two 8Ds in 2-3 weeks.
I believe the general term for these devices is "Battery Desulfator". They came about for people who live off the grid and rely on solar power and as such have a difficult time generating the power required for equalization once a month. I became interested in them a couple years ago and decided to build my own from one of the online schematics I had found. I had it running in the garage for months but in the end I wasn't successful and unable to measure any significant change in the battery I was working with. The most difficult thing was that it was very hard to tell if the circuit was working the way it was supposed to - I imagine an oscilloscope would might help but I'm actually a mechanical engineer. I could have made any number of mistakes along the way or the battery could have been just too far gone. I think the general concept is good but there is very little scientific information on the details of what it takes make the desulfacation process significant and effective. As they say "the devil is in the details" and there are many, many variables. Here are a couple of sites that I had found for those interest in reading more technical details:
Battery Desulfator (http://www.thompdale.com/battery_charger/desulfator/desulfator.htm)
Lead Acid Battery Desulfator (http://home.comcast.net/~ddenhardt201263/desulfator/desulf.htm)
I did my testing in the garage with a RS3000 inverter-charger. I used a fixed 120VAC load along with a 120VAC timer to tell me how long the battery lasted before the inverter shut down on a low voltage error. I believe the load was about 1/10th of the amp-hour rating of the battery. Maybe as soon as they get some of the science down desulfators will be standard equipment built into the inverter-chargers. I hope the Nanopulser works with measurable effects for those who are trying them.
Hopefully I'll have some measurable results in a couple of weeks. I no longer have an o'scope, but feel the proof of this puddin' is in the voltage measurements.
I intend to turn the boost switch on so it might also help the chassis batteries, but I suspect the high frequency pulses won't make it all the way to the back of the coach.
I feel it is best to have the device physically close to the batteries, so one built into the inverter might not be as useful as one wired directly at the battery terminals.
After we bought our 1999 u295 last year and started to use it, the house batteries were very poor. They are gel batteries with no date on them. 2 or 3 hours with the tv and a couple of lights on and the bank would be under 12 volts. On ebay I bought a battery tech desulfator for under $40.00 . I hooked it up on one of the batteries, and moved it to another one every two weeks. In the first two weeks I started to see an improvemen, after 6 weeks the batteries are great. I bought another for our little jeep in Panama. Joe
Curious; I know "zip" about the Nanopulser, (first heard about it through this thread) but if it were hooked to any single house-battery, would it not be connected to all of them? We have three 8D's, connected in parallel. If it's physically connected (not just "parked" on top of the battery) it seems you'd be connecting to all? What I've read (not much) on the device, seems to specifically suggest it for "lead-acid" batteries; I didn't see Gels or AGM listed, nor did I know they were also subject to sulfation? (Lots to learn - obviously.)
The second link I posted on Reply #8 of this thread offers evidence that it helps gel cell batteries. The manufacturer says it works on all lead-acid battery types: flooded, AGM, and gel; and also says it works on paralleled battteries. I suspect the batteries all need to be in close proximity, which is why I don't expect much help for the chassis batteries.
But I already have a BatteryMINDer connected to my chassis batteries to keep them from discharging, and the BatteryMINDer claims to have a desulfator circuit built-in (and testamonials on their website appear to support their claim).
Foor what it's worth, as I mentioned in the first post, the Battery MINDer just might be the reason the two original Optimas still work after I replaced the dead third one almost three years ago. Who knows???
I found a number of other "pulse technology" products with Google and on eBay, some as low as $45.99. I will be very interested in the outcome of practical tests to be run. I certainly agree that it would be a small investment if one would extend the life of our house or starting batteries.
Tom, thanks in advance for your efforts.
In my studies of Pulse Technology, I ran across the following item on what looks like a very good web site with exceptional pricing.
BatteryMINDer 12 Volt - 1.33 Amp: Charger-Maintainer-Conditioner (Desulphator) (http://www.rvupgradestore.com/BatteryMINDer-12-Volt-Desulphator-p/12117.htm)
I would appreciate an evaluation of the BatteryMinder product by our very knowledgeable Forum members.
It is interesting that this site offers the same BatteryMINDer specifically adjusted for AGM batteries. The price is much closer to list price. It makes me wonder if that "special adjustment" is necessary or just a sales gimmick.
12 Volt 1 Amp BatteryMINDer PLUS AGM (http://www.bestconverter.com/12-Volt-1-Amp-BatteryMINDer-PLUS-AGM_p_143.html)
The unit listed for $39.99 on RV Upgrades.com is listed as also compatible with AGM/Gel batteries - according to their spec-sheet: "The 12 Volt - 1.33 Amp BatteryMINDer allows you to charge up to 5 batteries (parallel or series connected) at a time. The batteries must be the same type (starter, deep cycle, sealed gel, AGM, etc.)"
What I liked was the ability to connect to up to I believe five batteries - in parallel - provided the condition (health) of the batteries is the same.
After a lengthy discussion with Battery Minder Plus customer support, They said the AGM model 12448 is for AGM's & has a higher charging voltage.
The model 12117 will work on any battery but not as good if you have AGM's.
If you have multiple batteries you need the model 12248 8 amp.
That said: since we have chargers built into our coaches these items will have NO value in our application.
12 Volt 1.33 Amp
Charger-Maintainer-Conditioner (Desulfator)
It is basically a battery maintainer for parasitic loads.
Camping/RV Battery Chargers | Battery Chargers by BatteryMINDers.com (http://www.batteryminders.com/batterycharger/catalog/Camping-RV-Battery-Chargers-orderby0-p-1-c-243.html)
That BatteryMINDer is the one I have on my chassis batteries, plugged into the block heater outlet under the bed. It does a great job of keeping the three Optima AGM chassis batteries charged when the coach sits. I remember checking the float voltage level after I installed it, and the voltage was within Optima specs.
I have no real information on how good it is as a desulfator, however... before installing the device, I had to replace one of the three batteries due to a shorted cell. Today that replacement battery along with the two original (now 8 year old) batteries appear to be perfectly healthy.
But I bought the BatteryMINDer to keep the chassis batteries from self-discharging. I bought the Nanopulser for a different reason, to keep the house batteries healthy for more years of useful service life.
The Amptronix battery desulfator looks very interesting as an accessory for the house batteries and chassis batteries. It appears to operate when a charger brings the voltage about 12.8 volts, and goes to sleep at low voltages. It would be a very simple hookup and. It would be suitable for an application where you have charging systems, but not any kind of pulser.
Amptronix Battery Desulfator / Refresher (http://www.amptronix.com/products/mobile-power/desulfators/abc-ds12.html)
For me, I feel this is more "Snake Oil" hype than what is best for your battery, These gadgets have been around for atleast 10 years, and trying to make a comeback. Battery folks have learned years ago about the "Hype";.
If real interested, check out the following EastPenn Manual on Gel & AGM Do;s & Do Not's.
East Penn makes many batteries, by many names including MK & Deka for example.
It is long, but most interesting. Enjoy.
www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/0139.pdf (http://www.dekabatteries.com/assets/base/0139.pdf)
Good article, but I didn't see any mention of desulfators, only this:
"If a battery is continually undercharged, a power-robbing layer of
sulfate will build up on the positive plate, which acts as a barrier
to recharging. Premature plate shedding can also occur.
Performance is reduced and life is shortened"
It does mention that "no high-voltage equalizing charge is necessary", but this is a different matter altogether.
Tom,
Nothing beats a careful reading of a good article. Good job.
Tom, Yes, Just one question, how does it desulfate the battery and not raise the voltage ?
Always thought it was done by the equalizing, where the voltage was raised up to the 15-16 volt level for an hour or so.
My concern gets into the area of the 14.1 VDC they say to not exceed. When a Gel voltage is raised above this level, the gel delvelops bubbles where it is no longer in contact with the plate, this surely lowers the ability of the battery.
I am very curious how the "Nahopluser" gets rid of the unlikely sulfate condition on a Gel battery with out exceeding the 14.1 VDC
I am aware of the short / partial charging issues. You can kill anything without care and understanding.
I am told the Flooded and AGM are much more likely to have the sulfate problem, and they can withstand the higher voltages, so I am all ears on the Gel issue. :)
Many Thanks
Dave M,
I reviewed the excellent article you recommended. I did not see anything about pulsing to help counter sulfation. A review of an article on Wikipedia and some references leads me to believe that pulse condition may aid in reversing some sulfation. According to the article, as I understood it, the primary way to avoid sulfation is to immediately recharge batteries with a proper charging profile and avoid long, slow discharges without benefit of recharge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery)
My conclusion was that the conditioning units that use high current pulses might help and probably wouldn't hurt. A couple of conditioners, one for house batteries and one for chassis batteries, would cost around $150. A full set of AGM batteries for our coach is around $2,000. (3 8Ds at $550 +-, 2 Group 34 at $200+-). If the pulsers would not hurt anything and might extend the life of a set of batteries, it might be worth installing them.
It appears that the pulsers raise the voltage to a relatively high level very briefly in order to send a high current pulse and break the stabilized sulfates. The pulses are short enough not to cause any damage to the battery.
As always, results and opinions will vary.
JD, I fully agree on the opinions and ideas are what makes this such an interesting forum. I enjoy bating ideas around, it helps me form MY opinions. ;D
My sole source for battery info is from two ex Exide Battery engineers who started their own wholesale business, where my company has purchased many hundreds of batteries over the past 27 years. I keep asking them some rare questions, they wonder where I come up with all this stuff. I tell them from the Foretravel Forum, they jusr roll their eyes :)).
Anyway, we get into some deep talks about batteries. Why I purchased my MK 8G8D, (I think they were)Gel (3) for my coach ($265.00 ea.) as they recommended against the AGM set.
I know nothing, I have some educated opinions.
Cheers
You're way too modest. One thing for sure is you know how to buy batteries at a righteous price. I'm told you know a thing or two about gensets....
Chuck,
It is simple, Have been in the emergency generator field for 40+ years and as for batteries, yes, we buy hundreds per year for last 27 years. The supplier and I have a good understanding and I have asked them many dumb questions for many years.
Point is, they provide me with a few perks either free or cost on the MK's for my mower, tractor, rail car, cars, pickups etc. Maybe they enjoy my business and prompt correct payment every month way before the due date.
We get into many deep discussions about battery care and feeding etc.
They being engineers with Exide before they started their very successful battery wholesale outlet, I must trust their opinion, I am too uneducated to question it.
As mentioned, I have an educated opinion only, What do you expect from an 8th grade drop out . ;D
Dave, if you can purchase 8D Gels for that price, there are probably plenty of us that would be happy to give you a reasonable mark up and still pay shipping. Or, if you don't want to mess with it, ask your distributor to develop a Foreforums price. If they are that competitive, there are quite a few of us that would go to the extra effort to order from them.
And don't give us that dumb old country boy routine. Your knowledge and expertise have been well demonstrated on this forum. Books don't make you smart, God does that.
Kent, You give me way too much credit. As for the pricing on the 8D gels, I need to go back and check, but I think I misspoke on the price, I feel it was $365.00. I also misstated the number of batteries we sell a month, it is more like 40-50+ a month.
We sell mostly Group 24, 26, 27, 31, 4D, 4DFord. & 8D. plus some specials like 8 volt for some 24 and 32 Volt setups.
I am busy trying to keep up with the generator business and between sneaking out every few months for a few weeks on the road, frankly I ain't got no time for batteries. ;D
Cheers :)
My Nanopulser arrived in the mail yesterday, and I started a pre-nano test run. I am discharging the house batteries at a constant 12A rate, and will keep this up until the battery voltage dips noticably from the 12.8 volt range, taking voltage and current readings at convenient intervals. After this is done, I will install the Nanopulser, let the batteries recharge and float for a couple of weeks, then re-run the test.
The device is physically small, runs at 10,000Hz, and is powered by the battery. Any pulses it supplies must be very narrow impulses, with minimal energy content. The spikes most likely run both positive and negative. I cannot see them being harmful to the battery, and I'll know in a couple of weeks if they are helpful.
Tom, During all the conflab here, I forgot if your playing with Gel, AGM or Flooded type batteries ?
Thanks
Gel
I am now about 22 hours into my pre-nanopulser test run, and the voltage is down to 12.55 volts under nearly constant 12A load. According to the information at this site:
Deep Cycle Battery FAQ (http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm)
I am still at 90% of full capacity (maybe, maybe not). If true, not bad for 8 year old batteries. I plan to continue draining the batteries until they reach 12.3 volts, which should be around 1/3 discharged. At that time, I will do an approximate calculation of the current Amp-hour capacity of my elderly batteries and start the second phase of my test.
Tom
I found another source of information on state of charge vs. voltage here:
http://www.scubaengineer.com/documents/lead_acid_battery_charging_graphs.pdf (http://www.scubaengineer.com/documents/lead_acid_battery_charging_graphs.pdf)
This site includes a set of curves showing SOC vs. voltage at various discharge rates. I am discharging around C/50, which places my test between the closely-spaced C/100 and C/20 curves. This gives more realistic results, with my current (after 22 hours) SOC at 12.55 volts being around 60~70%.
This should be my last report for a few weeks. I discharged the three 8D gel house batteries to the 505 level. After fully charging the batteries, I turned the charger off and added loads until the current draw was 11.8A, measured with a clamp-on ammeter. I watched the voltage rapidly drop from the surface charge level of 13.31 volts to 12.89 volts, then slowly drop to 12.42 volts. This should be pretty close to the 50% state charge level according to the chart. the current draw varied from 11.8A to 11.4A as the voltage decreased. I calculate the total Amp-Hours used as 307. If this is indeed the 505 level, the total A-H of the three 8D batteries would be 614A-H, or 205AH per 8D battery. Not too bad considering they are rated at 225AH new and these are eight years old. This makes me feel pretty good about the health of the batteries.
I'll re-run the test after the batteries fully charge again, this time with the Nanopulser working. I'll give the Nanopulser a few weeks to work it's magic, then see if the batteries are any better (or worse) for the experience.
By the way, I feel good about knowing just how healthy (or not) my batteries are. I recommend everyone run a test like this once in a while so you won't get caught offguard when the batteries die at the wrong time (is there a right time?). Just not too often or to too low a state of charge, as deep discharge cycles age the batteries.
Tom,
Very impressive report. Thank you. I look forward to reading what you find out in a few weeks.
Here's the follow-up report I promised.
The Nanopulser had been installed and the coach sitting with the charger charging for six weeks. Any good done by the Nanopulser should have been done by now.
I re-ran the tests, and the results are for all intents and purposes identical to the results six weeks ago.
The device may help if the batteries are showing their age, and it may prevent them from showing their age as soon as otherwiise. But in my case, the eight-year-old batteries were 90% as good as new before the Nanopulser, and are still 90% as good as new with the Nanopulser. It would be asking too much to achieve 100% at this point, even it I could tell the difference.
Tom
Tom, still excellent information. Do you think the nano is worth the investment? My house batteries are 7 years old so its good to know they may still have some good life left.
What device did you use to test the amp draw? I have an induction meter but it is for AC voltage. I can't seem to get it to work with DC.
Unfortunately, I have no good way to know if the nano really does any good. That is, unless I get 20 years out of the oriiginal batteries. I don't suspect any harm, and will keep the device.
I used an AC/DC clamp-on ammeter and turned on enough lights to reach the desired load.
I must say that I am pleased that this experiment allowed me to run a confidence test on the batteries. Before the test, I was concerned that my old batteries might let me down some cold winter night. Now I feel they are close enough to like-new to last for quite some time.
I think a test like I ran would be a good thing to do on an annual basis. I plotted the cumulative amp-hours used and also the cumulative watt-hours used vs. voltage and compared the curves from my two test runs. They were virtually identical. I'll do the same again next year and see how the batteries have aged.
Tom
Tom,
Nicely done.