You guys with the U225 and U240 who mention bottoming out, PLEASE check your ride height. If you still have adjustment shims left, you can very easily raise the coach back to OE specs. If you are out of shims, there is currently (no more when they are gone) a small quantity of rear torsilastic springs for our coaches. If you need them, better get them NOW.
And the under-engine protector skid bar was originally designed for an engine with much deeper pan than the Caterpillar 3116. If you look, there are a lot of inches between the skid bar and the pan. The skid bar is only held by 8 bolts. Remove it and have a welder cut off and re-weld to the minimum clearance that will protect the pan. Anything below that is just -- well, just excess.
BTW, all the Caterpillar 3116's in the U240's through the years were the same 250 HP, 650 lb-ft torque at 1560 RPM. And unless driven hard, 10 MPG was standard.
1995 was the first (and only) year the U240 was a wide body, but built on the same track as the 96" coaches.
Brett
Brett,
I think I'm ok on the shims. Ride height is pretty close to spec and I see that the engine guard could be altered. I'm curious about the torsilastic spring you mentioned. How many still out there, where and how much money? I asked this question before and I believe you said it wasn't possible but I would think that somewhere the mini air bags that are put on pick-ups that haul heavy load in the bed could be added to take some of the strain off of the spring so as to extend its life. Have you ever considered this? I remember you mentioned that there are buses with a million miles with this suspension. What is the reason some seem to never go bad while others have problems? I've read your excellent piece on the workings of the suspension and I asked James Triana about the suspension once during a discussion about the steering pump failure and he said he'd never seen any with the torsilastic re-engineered but wasn't at all sure that it couldn't be done. I know someone very knowledgeable about motorhomes who admits to knowing very little about this suspension though he'd heard of it. Without inspecting it, he said he'd be surprised if the rubber stuff could't be removed and air bags retrofitted in. Perhaps when the springs are all gone someone will have to get experimental to save their coach.
The entire supply of the "proper" (my term) 19,000 pound rear torsilastic springs were purchased by Pioneer Metal Works (http://www.pioneermetalworks.com/)
Ralph Andrews, the owner of Pioneer Metals has a Safari with torsilastic suspension and is very familiar with the suspension.
The reason so many of the rear springs on the U240's failed (my opinion) is that they are 15,000 pound springs loaded to 15,000 or perhaps a little more. Newer the coach the heavier the rear was loaded-- rear of 1994 heavier than 1993 as batteries moved to the rear, retarder added to some of them. The 1995 is a wide body, so that's extra weight even over the 1994.
I have had the 19,000 pound rear springs on our coach for over a decade-- in fact I worked with the engineers at B.F. Goodrich who designed and built the springs and picked them up at Goodrich in Jacksonville FL. That division is now closed.
I don't like the idea of a "bubble gum and bailing wire" fix. That is what I consider adding an air bag to semi-support the rear suspension. Could someone make an proper air suspension for the rear-- yes, I have seen one, but well more than the cost of new torsilastic springs.
And I would suggest that no one "think they are OK on shims"-- MEASURE IT. I would suggest that "OK on shims" means that current ride height when loaded as you go down the road is factory spec of 32-33" as measured from the "shelf" behind each wheel position to the ground with the coach on level pavement. AND that you have at least 3 shims remaining for future adjustment. Removing those three shims will raise the coach 3/4" at that wheel position. Were I to keep a coach and it did not meet this definition of "OK on shims" I would immediately buy a set of 19,000 pound rear springs from Pioneer metals. When he sells the ones he has, there are no more on planet earth! He bought 100% of those that Monaco/Safari had when Navistar bought the assets of Monaco. No one else has even one in stock.
Front springs are not a problem-- at least I have never seen a ride height issue on the front of any U225 or U240. Rear springs are less of a problem on the U225 as the Cummins B engine and 4 speed Allison are quite a lot lighter than the Caterpillar 3116 and Allison MD3060 6 speed and have the same 15,000 pound rear springs.
Brett
Thanks. I'll measure again and check shims. Last I checked the height was perfect. Didn't count the shims. How much are a set last you heard?
Dwayne,
Sorry, I have not priced a set in 10 years. Perhaps someone else has a price or call Pioneer Metals on Monday.
Brett
Here is one of Bretts informative write ups on the subject.
A discussion of maintenance, adjustments and changes to the Torsilastic Suspension found on the 1991-1995 Foretravel U225/U240 by Brett Wolfe.
Foretravel Torsilastic Suspension (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/foretravel_torsilastic_suspension.html)
I was told two days ago. $1400 a corner by Ralph who owns them.
Wow...$2800 plus labor...that's a kick in the wallet.
My cost was approx. $3000.00 for complete rear suspension including freight. From Quincy Wa. to Rolla Mo.
Relax and Enjoy, 15 years ago the Eagle Bus suspension units were $2,500.00 each X 6 for all, plus about 30 hr labor.
SO if you can have the rear dome complete, my feelings are that you are very lucky.
Cheers
I wonder what percentage of these unit have experienced failure. Should be minimal otherwise there was very bad engineering from the get go. I would think that some augmentation of existing suspension should be possible so as to take away some of the stress. If the percentage is high, clearly some strategy of springs/shocks/air whatever should have been undertaken. I'd be surprised that Foretravel didn't do this based on my experience with them when I had the fan pump go. They had a replacement unit and the necessary hoses and external pressure relief valve packaged ready to go out because they knew the old pump was no longer available and a certain amount of re-engineering was necessary and they had done there homework and even though this is a 20 year old rig, they were prepared with a plan, including instructions for the installer. I was very impressed.
Dwayne, Just for the rest of the story about the Eagle, in the end, air bags were fitted ontop of the six rubber suspensin units, The owner says it never rode nor handled as well as it does now. This all happened when the units that were replaced 15 years ago, started to sag/fail again.
SO, the engineering began, mounting plates on top of the rubber suspension, plates for top0 and bottom, air height valves, air line plumbing. Turned out nice and the sustomer loves the new setup better than the factory origional.
SO with some thought, maybe you can improve on your design and save money and wind up with a better suspension.
Remember, with a welder, grinder, drill and a gas setup, you can make anything.
Give it some thought.
If you could couple the advantages of both systems you'd have a heck of a ride!
OK. Front looks good but hard to tell on the rear with all the crap on them. They look fused together. I need to get under the rig rather than sticking my hand in with a camera. Here is the bad news on my shims.
looks like no shims on the left rear aft but several on the opposite end of the same side. They should be even # same wheel.
Dwayne,
Correct. At either end of a torsilastic spring (i.e. at one wheel position) the shims HAVE to be the same in front and behind or you are artificially inducing CASTER.
And, you could have 5 shims on one side and 2 on the other side of the axle, no problem. This answer is to have the ride height the same.
I have been asked in a PM "how to" adjust the ride height. So here goes.
Measure ride height when loaded as you drive down the road. Flat pavement, jacks stowed. 32" to 33" is factory spec from the "shelf" behind each wheel position. This area is parallel to the ground and forms the back of the wheel well. It is the only area anywhere near that dimension. Remembering that removing one of the shims from in front of and behind a wheel position RAISES the coach 1/4", make a note (I use a piece of masking tape on the fender well lip) to list the number of shims to be removed. Example, you measure ride height at 31 1/2", but have plenty of shims. Middle of factory spec is 32 1/2". Removing 4 of the 1/4" shims will raise that wheel position 1". You may find that you don't have enough shims on one side to get that high. So always start with the lower side/one with fewer shims. Said another way, if removing all the shims will only get you to 32", you don't want the other side at 32 1/2"-- they would both be set to 32". However, if you are going to keep the coach and are low or out of adjustment shims, I strongly recommend buying the stronger 19,000 pound rear springs while they are available.
Use the jacks to take about 1/2 the weight off the axle to be worked on. Wire brush the threads on the through shim bolts and spray with WD-40 or similar. Loosen, do NOT remove, the 4 "tall boy" nuts at the bottom of the through-shim bolts. Again, do NOT remove! If the nuts appear to be of standard dimension for that size thread,they are WRONG and will not stand up well to the proper torque. Replace with tall boy nuts from any good bolt store. The shims are slotted. As soon as the nuts are loosened, you can take a screwdriver and hammer and easily push the proper number of shims out of the shim stack. Torque nuts to 115 ft-lbs. But, before torquing, verify that the threads are OK where you will be torquing the nuts. It is possible that that area rubbed on the metal plate and that the threads are bunged up. If so, take the bolt to any bolt shop and buy a replacement. The outer ones come out easily. Inner ones not so easily.
Lower jacks on that axle and take 1/2 the weight off the other axle and do that one. If no problems with bad threads, excessive rust, etc about 1 hour per axle is what it will take.
Brett
Brett, not being familiar with the system used on the Foretravel suspension, I wonder if the critical adjustment is purely height or weight as the weight balance can be way way off as my experience is with the Eagle setup, and the actual weight per wheel position can get real crazy even when it looks great. Trying to get an acceptable weight per wheel position is a time consuming labor even if you had a scale under each wheel. adjust one, and the other three go crazy, why I prefer the simple 3 air height valves ;D ;D
Just wondering or is this not a concern?
Have what appears to be 8 to 9 shims per position going by a quick count without crawling under to do a exact count.
With only the two axles as found on the U225 and U240, I really haven't seen that much of a problem. Yes, the right rear of many is heavier (and will be), as the radiator, CAC, batteries and more furniture in the rear of the coach are on that side. Could you fudge a little and perhaps have the other side an eight of an inch to a quarter of an inch higher to take more weight-- I guess so. But we are really splitting hairs here. The left to right imbalance is just not that significant on our application.
Brett
Wow, that is not unreasonable in front, but I would be shocked if you are anywhere near proper ride height in the rear with that many shims. Measure it and let us know.
Brett
Brett, Thanks, one reason I mention this, on the Eagle, it is very easy to carry most of the weight on the left front wheel and right rear wheel for example, makes for an awkward bicycle effect, and nasty handling. Nother one of those been there done that thing ;D
Looks like it has been this way for a long time. I've driven up and down the east coast the year before last and out west and back last year and don't seem to have uneven tire wear or symptoms of anything being wrong. The ride height is between 32-33 all around. Wondering why this one end of the axle has the shims uneven like this. Could someone along the line be trying to correct for some other problem? I was surprised to see no shims on one side of the wheel and several on the other. I wonder if I should even them out prior to going with new springs. I'd like to get the springs and store them until I have the right rear corner drop under spec. At least I could split the cost of parts and labor by a season or so.
Improper, induced caster may give no tire-wear symptoms. But the axle was not meant to be "bent" like that. Yes, even out the number of shims at that wheel position so they are the same front and back of that one beam.
And the amount of rust on those rear shackles (from your Photo) is excessive. Compare to the front of your coach which appears normal. Probably another symptom of that potable water leak. I would wire brush, Ospho, etc to clean them up if you are not replacing them.
It is a little hard to tell from the photos, but it appears you do not have the tall boy nuts, but rather someone put on "standard size" nuts and then double nutted them. I would replace them. If you do it one at a time, no big deal, as the other three will hold the suspension/coach in place while you replace that one. Torque to 115 ft-lbs (with clean, dry threads).
Brett
After I get over the "Oh my God another huge expense" shock I will formulate a plan. The only saving grace is having a quality albeit old MH with no real debt and probably not much more to do for quite awhile. Of course I've been saying that at each juncture since I've owned it. I know my trips in it will be limited from Tampa to Gainesville & back with some frequency for the next year or two (or four) and seeing as how I have another major expense item during this same period I have some thinking to do. I know my schedule won't permit any big trips this year and probably not next year either. I will be calling Ralph to see how many of those 19000 lbs springs he has in stock and perhaps plan on at least getting the parts.
Checked ride height again on level pavement with jacks up and have 31" and I got my photos mixed up. The wheel with no shims on one side of the spring is the left rear, not the radiator side which I guess is unusual. I know I had 32" prior to my last trip. Sent Ralph at Pioneer an email but haven't heard back from him. Still not sure what to do. Spending a big pile of money on the coach this year wasn't, or should I say isn't, in the cards. Still thinking about investigating an air add on also. I know if there is an obvious spot for the brackets it should be a lot cheaper than $3000 for parts plus installation. I'm not at all sure that there is anyone around here that I could trust with this suspension. They've all seen air based ones.
I read an article about an airless airbag system called Sumo Springs, by Supersprings, Inc. They are a closed cell urethane filled airbag. Suspension is provided by the density of the foam rather than air. The are made for a Workhorse chassis so maybe they would work for the Torsilastic coaches. It is my impression that Super Springs likes to work to solve special problems. You might want to give them a call and tell them how many older Foretravels and buses there are out there all of which will probably need a suspension upgrade down the road.
Check out SuperSprings Self-Adjusting Suspension Stabilizers (http://www.supersprings.com/sumosprings_rear_overview.asp)
I'm sure various solutions could be engineered. I heard from Ralph via email and he indicated that he has 19000 lbs. torsilastic springs in stock or air add on solution kits. There are many truck frame and suspension shops in my area and I often see MH and buses in their yards so I'm sure I can get the air locally cheaper. My druthers would be to stay OE if possible but at 3 grand for just the parts I don't know if that is the way to go. I'm not 100% sure that going this route would prevent a repeat failure either but then again airbags go bad too but with air I think any of the components can be replaced without such cost. Replacing the torsilastic a second time would be crazy. I'm having a real hard time accepting that I have to spend nearly 20% of the coach's value fixing this problem.
It occurred to me that the torsilastic springs in the front are not as worn while the weight there is less and the ones from the rear are worn but may be able to handle the lesser weight up front. As I'm not planning any big trips for two or three years, only occasional weekend trips of 150 miles each way, I am thinking about trying to buy some time by moving the springs from the front to the rear and visa versa and rearranging the shims to level her out as close to spec as I can. At the same time I'll add new shocks. Of course this won't work if the front springs are not the same as the rear. Is there a reason this won't work? I can't see sinking $5000 (parts & labor) into this.
Dwayne,
What I have to say is not much help now but here goes. If you really love your coach, $5,000 will get you the same coach only with the proper suspension components. This is the reason I strongly advocate for anyone to buy the Foretravel they really love and like to drive and go places in. Because, unless you have unlimited financial resources, it would end up costing a hell of a lot more money to change out a coach than to repair the one you picked to own in the first place.
Some folks who are really DIY types (Brian comes to mind), would end up saving on the labor bill, and maybe even on parts. The rest of us have to pay the piper. I do so happily knowing that "Forrest" is in good hands...for now, and should be roaming the highways for many years to come...God willing.
Dwayne,
The front springs (as a pair) are 9,000 pound capacity. The OE rears are 15,000 (as a pair). The correct replacement rear springs are 19,000 pound capacity (as a pair). Putting 9,000 pounders on the rear would be a sure fire way to have a major problem.
Brett
OK so that won't work. Brett, In one of your posts from a long time ago you outlined the other changes you made to the rear aside from the shocks or perhaps you mentioned some of the components missing from some of the early 225/240 series coaches other than yours. Could you elaborate?
Foretravel fit a front track bar/panhard rod on the U225 and U240, but not one on the rear. I had a rear one custom built. Yes, it helps, particularly in tight mountain driving. No it is not one of the first things I would do to the suspension. I also fit larger custom front and rear sway bars. Again, they help, but come WAY after getting proper ride height, shocks, etc.
Brett
Just a tidbit of useless info, A couple, Art & Carol Malies ran about 40K miles a year in their Torsilastic equiped Foretravel with the Cat 3208T for years following the World of Outlaws Racing circuit pulling a enclosed trailer hauling the "Workn Woody" a push truck for the WOO racing events.
Just wondering what ever happened to them and if anyone here ever knew them ?
I had a talk with Art about12 years ago when they were at Lincoln Track in Pa.
They are now retired, living in Az. Knew he loved the Foretravel, that was befor I took an interest in the FT, as I was running the V12 MCI :)
Went over to the coach today and was able to spend more time. The place where I keep it isn't a nice flat surface...it is kind of dirt/stones/crushed asphalt covered with sand and leaves. It is kind of rutted at the tire tracks from years of vehicle traffic. I moved it to pavement and very carefully measured behind each front tire and behind both tires in the rear from the ground to the flat surface above. I had been measuring from aside of the tires and always in a hurry. I have just under 33" on the left front, just over 32" on the right front both with plenty of shims, just a little over 32 at the right rear with five or six shims and just under 32 at the left rear where I have no shims on the aft side and three on the forward side of the axle. At every other wheel position they are even numbered fore and aft. I am going to buy new Koni adjustables as per Brett's specifications and have the suspension shop pull all the shims on the left rear and even up the coach at whatever that gives me. Hopefully it is 32 inches or very close. A friend of mine asked me if air shocks would be helpful. I haven't heard anyone mention this so I assume not. I'm going to have the suspension people assess it for adding air over or whatever. I'm looking for someone who has worked on torsilastic so that they'll have a clue about this suspension. Brett, how much I am risking with regard to the shaft alignment as ride height goes under 32 inches which I'm just barely at now? I've lost about 1/2" over two years. I keep it with jacks down all the time. I guess I'm asking to quantify risk at 32" vs. 31 1/2" vs. 31" and trying to find out at what point am I no long able to avoid addressing this. Incidentally the suspension guy I talked to says he didn't hear me say it was a pusher. My daughter starts college this fall and if I have a situation I can live with for now...I need to do that.
Dwayne,
Definitely remove the three shims from in front of the left rear wheel! That is a real no-no as it induces artificial caster on that side of the axle.
No air shocks that will work on that heavy an application and were they strong enough to raise the coach, the shock mounts would be in jeopardy.
After removing those three shims, you may be adding two of those shims to lower the left front-- you want the coach to be level all around.
What shocks do you have now-- Foretravel used both Koni and Bilstein as OE?
As, I am sure you are aware, measuring ride height on anything but dead level pavement gives false readings. You may need to drive to a shopping mall early on a Sunday morning and find a level piece of concrete. Also, filling water and fuel lowers the front as the tanks are over (water) and immediately behind (propane and diesel) the front axle.
I have no crystal ball to speculate on how low is too low in terms of drive line angle.
Clearly, moving any weight from the left rear, particularly weight behind the rear axle will sure help. Look at location of heavy objects that would not be too difficult to move. Batteries come to mind. On the 1993 they are in front of the right rear wheel, but I know on the 1994 they are in the engine room. Can't remember where yours are. Store nothing you don't have to on the left rear.
Brett
I have Koni shocks but when I had the safe-t-plus installed I tried to have them adjusted per your instructions but they swore up and down that couldn't get them to adjust even though it clearly says adjustable on the shock and I gave them a copy of the Koni adjustment procedure. This was at a truck suspension shop. They didn't impress me and I won't be going back there. I took photos of them...attached here. I don't have any movable weight on the left rear other than the spare on the roof in that corner. My batteries are where yours are. I think our coaches, prior to all your changes, were nearly identical other than the bath layout based on everything I've read from you over the years. The air filter is in that back corner. The water/electrical/sewage compartment just forward of that wheel position. I know you said the other side with the CAC and radiator is heavier. Perhaps I should switch the two springs? I know when I bought the coach and had Lazydays go over it they found and repaired broken right front shock mount. When I get my new shocks I will ask the suspension people about the angle on the shaft vs. ride height but I doubt they will have any insight. I will ask them about possible room and location for air add-on. Based on prices I've heard quoted, I know I'm not paying that much for the springs although I haven't spoken to Ralph about price yet. If they tell me that adding air will be impossible or more costly than I've heard it should be, I will have to reconsider.
Before considering replacement, remove and DO adjust the shocks. If you have not done this before, it is much easier off the vehicle. It can be done by just removing one end of the shock and following the procedure below.
As this Koni document shows, there is quite a lot of adjustment in terms of dampening on extension with adjustment.
I find it hard to believe that a suspension shop was did not know how to do this!
Koni-RV (http://www.konirv.com/adjustment.html)
Brett
I tried to investigate the number on the shock with Koni. They didn't have a clue. I think the shocks are fairly old. When did they come out with adjustables if you know? I knew on my last trip that I wanted to replace them. I especially think the right front is bad. This is the one that had the bad mount. I am hearing a bang on that corner when I hit a bad bump. Not severe but noticeable.
Dwayne,
Check the panhard rod mounts as well as shock mounts.
I do know that adjustables WERE used as Original Equipment on many U240's of our vintage.
What number is on the shock-- front/rear? I may have some old documentation in my library.
Brett
Don't know which was front or rear but I have two pictures that have 28-1546 & 56-1546 on them. Koni had no idea. I'm thinking they are very old and should be replaced. I will have the panhard mounts checked as well. It would be nice to know the vintage of those shocks. What kind of a life expectancy do MH / truck shocks usually have? I've had cars where OE shocks didn't last too long but replacements for some reason seemed to last the duration of my ownership. But I've never had a car that was 20 years old other than my Falcon and I know it has good shocks. Put new ones on in 2001 and don't drive it much.
OE Konis on the U225 and U240 were:
88-1546 front
88-1547 rear
I am surprised that you have any Konis that don't start with 88 or 90 (the two series used on heavier vehicles).
Current replacement recommendations: Koni-RV (http://www.konirv.com/nextstep.cfm?Model=U225%2C+U-240+w%2F+velvetride)
Brett
Dewayne same area same noise.
I don't know the name of this metal support, (Brett can help me out here) its bolted under the spring and sits on the front axle 4 upper bolts and 4 lower bolts. Lower right corner was broken and bolt was missing. Going over bridges it was very noticeable. Stop at Angels truck repair South of Memphis around 5 pm departed at midnight. Very satisfied with repair. I always check these 2 supports for cracks and make sure bolts are tight.
Thanks I'll check it.
I ordered new Koni shocks. As best I can find, the shocks on there now were high performance Mercedes shocks (front) and Range Rover shocks (rear) from the seventies or early eighties. Who knows why. I'm buying new bolts and tall boy nuts and probably have the motor guard remade by my shipyard buddies as this one is way too low. I'm going to remove all shims from left rear and have them measure and balance out the other positions. I'll have them inspect all shock and rod mounts. Going to have them advise as to the feasibility of adding air and try to get another year or two out of the suspension before buying new springs or augmenting the existing springs. I think I'll try to find out where the Eagle bus guys go for suspension work in Tampa area. In case of welding...aside from disconnecting the batteries and grounding the frame...do I need to do anything else?
Dwayne,
It is pretty easy to mark the existing engine guard, remove it (8 bolts) and have it cut off per the marks and re-welded. Far less work than making a new one.
In your Foretravel owners manual is a sheet listing all you need to disconnect when electric welding on the coach. If you don't have it, have James Traina send you one. Certainly the two gang plugs for the Allison ECM need to be removed.
Love to know the story that went with you having Land Rover and MB shocks on your coach!
The Eagle bus's torsilastic was quite a lot different in design than the one used on our and Safari motorhomes. Not sure they would be familiar with it. But, removing shims is NOT rocket science.
It is described in an old write-up I did and well documented by photos John took: 225 Ride Height (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=12903.0) Torque on the tall boy nuts is 115 ft-lbs.
Brett
Disconnect the following before welding on completed coaches:
*
U270/U280/U295 - B-21 - Alternator ground at alternator
* C-2 - Transmission ground at breakerboard
* Allison ECU - Under dash / driver's side / both plugs
* ABS - 3 plugs in brake ECU - Power in / Front axle / Rear axle
* HWH -All grounds on coach and engine batteries
*
*
U240 All of the above except ABS
*
U300/U320 C-E18 Same as U270/U280/U295 plus:
* PEEC-ECM at engine - lower square plug w/ allen head screw (2402)
* U300/U320 C-E22 Same as U270/U280/U295 plus:
* CELECT-ECM at engine - top plug w/ 2 screws (38459) and round Deutsch plug (2348)
* Any coach with Aqua Hot option:
* Disconnect A9 red 8 ga and A10 black 8 ga at breakerboard in compartment
* Any coach with Primus option:
* Unplug all connections on boilers
* Disconnect #8 black at control panel inside coach
Welding Checklist (https://wiki.foreforums.com/doku.php?id=technical:chassis:welding)
Previous thread
Welding on Frame...... (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=10619.msg50246#msg50246)
Barry,
From your list, I understand the ECU plugs and the negative battery posts. Are you saying to disconnect the alternator where it grounds to the frame and I'm assuming that there is a breaker in the box under the bed for just the ECU or transmission? I don't recall seeing that one there.
Transmission fuses are under the dash (flip up the dash) on the driver's side. There are two. Also, at driver's feet is the Allison ECM, Disconnect the two gang plugs.
Brett
OK. I seem to remember those...far left side.
On the drive up rack at the suspension shop I was able to get good measurements. The bad side on the back was the left rear. No shims on one end and four on the other. Was at 31 1/2 but removing the four brought it up to 32 1/4. The odd side on the front was the left side (again the lighter position!) where I had 10 & 6 and it was at 31 3/4 but only came up to 32. I had them remove one more on each end to get 32 1/4. I had 10 & 10 on the right front at 31 1/2 and pulled three each end to get to 32 1/4. Can't recall right rear (had five maybe) but pulled three to get to 32 1/4. All the bolts on the left rear were eaten up and had to be replaced (see photo). Some were cut off with the torch. I think I had at least one bolt at every position except the left front cut off to get it out. There was no tall boy nuts anywhere. The left rear had three nuts on each bolt. One of the bolts had to go in upside down on both sides in the rear. None of the other bolts were eaten up like the left rear. They didn't look great but threads were intact and would allow the nut to be tightened. The only other bolts replaced were those cut off to get them out. The shocks were a bear too. The rear shocks were sized similarly to the front (see photo). The new rear Koni had to have a brass insert to fit with the bolt and to fit the upper brackets (see photos). Even with air tools it was a fight getting torsilastic bolts out. The left rear tires had to come off to get better leverage. I observed the entire time and even helped some. They had two guys (one experienced and one trainee) working all day on this. Two guys all day, 32 tall boy nuts and several bolts and they charged me $550. They didn't see anything obviously bad otherwise although they hadn't see this set-up before. They've been there 40 years. There were trucks, buses and RV's there. This wasn't their first rodeo but they really didn't know about this set-up. The guy was sure that the 6 and 10 shim count on the right front was to induce caster. They were familiar with the Rockwell axle and knew how it is typically aligned in other vehicles but this torsilastic had them scratching their heads. Result: Ride over bumps much improved. I might firm up the fronts some more as even with a full tank of fuel the front seems even more light and possibly even more rear sway as if there was a hinge in the middle of the coach. I might add that panhard bar in the rear. They said it looked like it was set-up to have one. They thought adding air would be a very big job and cost more than replacing the springs although that is going to be a job too. Hopefully I can get a few more years with this adjustment. My hat is off to you guys who got into this with hand tools in the driveway. I told these techs that and I'm not sure they believed it.
As we have discussed, the number of shims in front of and behind a particular wheel position MUST be the same or you induce artificial caster. And, particularly trying to "bend" the rear axle will really stress the suspension.
On the phone you also mentioned that none of the bolts had the correct "tall boy" nuts-- in fact someone had put THREE standard nuts on one position. Get the tall boy nuts and torque to 115 ft-lbs.
The photo of that bolt really shows the devastation caused by a long-term water leak in the wet bay. WOW. Glad you have the leak cured.
Brett
Well, I thought I did have the leak situation solved. I went to the suspension shop with 1/2 to 3/4 on all tanks. I had dyed the grey and black tanks looking for the leak but determined that the fresh water inlet was leaking and fixed it thinking problem solved. When I got back yesterday while putting it up and hooking up the electricity, I noticed a small dried streak of a colored liquid in the wet bay. It never showed up sitting...only after driving. And it never appeared wet under the rig anywhere at the shop. So, I have something going on with the grey or black tank but only while moving. This ought to be fun to investigate. This could be the source of all that obvious water at the aft bulkhead. While under there yesterday I noticed that it looked worse than I thought it did just looking under. See photo. This is much more indicitive of a problem. Also, it looks like I have some swelling under the entry door area and rust coloration at missing bolt holes. Now I know why no stairs. I think there has been some long term small quantity leakage migrating around under the tanks spaces and looking for avenues of escape but not in enough volume to see running fluid. The only real test is going to be to dye the two tanks again with a good quantity and go for a long drive.