Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Peter & Beth on June 12, 2011, 10:23:27 am
Title: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Peter & Beth on June 12, 2011, 10:23:27 am
Can I use the Prestone Extended Life Coolant made for auto & light trucks (on label) to fill the overflow tank at a 50-50 mix ratio? I do not use any extended life coolant. The coolant in there now is the Prestone regular stuff (I think, can't be sure as the local Cummins dealer has been replacing every two years for the past 6 years).
The label indicates it is silicate, phosphate, borate and nitrate free.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 12, 2011, 10:41:48 am
Peter, I go by what is presently in the cooling system, if green use green, if red use red, if orange, use orange. I am not sure if there is cure all, or fit all for cooling systems, but I stay with what ever is presently used. Some concoctions can cause a sludge mix that will not cool nor flow through the system. I am too dumb to try to out whit the possibilities and wannabees. Good luck
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Peter & Beth on June 12, 2011, 10:52:35 am
Another related question. I understand that when switching to extended life coolant, the system is not considered extended life until a second replacement of the coolant. If this is true, then what is the typical procedure?
a. Perform the first change to extended life coolant, run system for a short while, say a month, then flush the second time, or,
b. Perform the first change to extended life coolant, run system for 2 years, then flush the second time.
I say in b. above as regular coolant is good for 2 years anyway, so why waste 2 years' use of coolant?
Anyone have input, or is there some secret coolant manufacturer marketing code I don't understand?
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on June 12, 2011, 11:18:22 am
Peter,
Right after I bought the coach, it had the green looking antifreeze, so idea what brand, so decided to change it. Bought Prestone for auto and trucks and put it in only to find out a short time later, that I should have bought an antifreeze that is approved for use in Cummins engines and it should say so on the container. So I changed it again. Unapproved coolant might lead to cavitation on the cylinder liners which erodes the metal, a hole in the liner and an engine failure/overhaul $$$. Some of the approved antifreezes require the coolant filter with pellets and some require a coolant filter without the pellets.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on June 12, 2011, 11:26:09 am
Peter,
Forgot to add. Just my personal opinion that if the system is flushed with water a couple of times between changes, that would be sufficient. Run the engine or drive a few miles to heat up the water and have the dash heater valve open.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: wolfe10 on June 12, 2011, 11:44:24 am
"Regular" Prestone is not approved by any diesel engine manufacturer.
Prestone does, however make a "Low silicate for diesels coolant with added SCA's" and MAY (I don't know, as have not checked on this) make an ELC (Extended Life Coolant) as well.
Use regular automotive coolant and you will be buying a new engine. Without the SCA's or the additives in a long life coolant, the cylinder liners will erode! Your engine owners manual will give you the mil-specs of approved coolants.
And if done properly, changing to an ELC gives you the full 6 year protection without the need to test and add SCA's. But with regular "for diesel" coolant, you MUST check and add SCA's. They are used up as a sacrificial element to protect the cylinder liners.
Brett
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 12, 2011, 12:05:08 pm
After reading about all the hot weather, plus having owned our U300 for almost two years, I thought I would do a coolant change. Here is the official Detroit Diesel coolant website: http://www.detroitdiesel.com/pdf/vocations/Coolant-Selections.pdf (http://www.detroitdiesel.com/pdf/vocations/Coolant-Selections.pdf) Reading the PDF, I can see there are differing requirements dependent on the engine model. This PDF covers the do and do nots and "what will happen" for coolants and addresses the use of tap water to mix with the anti-freeze. A good read for those of us with two or four cycle Detroits. Have not found an volume discounter for the proper coolant but will post if I do.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: D.H. Spoor on June 12, 2011, 05:03:04 pm
Yes, ELC coolants give you "protection for 6 years", but most, maybe all, specify (in small print) that "6 years" is predicated on the "addition of an additive package at 3 years..". Many folks don't read that part and then, by default, you have a 3-year coolant. Don't ask me how I know that!
And don't forget the Generator has coolant, too!
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Raymond Jordan on June 12, 2011, 07:02:02 pm
Hi all, Does anyone know the cooling system capacity for the M-11/450 Cummins engine in a 1197 U 320? Thanks,
Raymond
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Barry Beam on June 12, 2011, 08:30:16 pm
Hi all, Does anyone know the cooling system capacity for the M-11/450 Cummins engine in a 1197 U 320? Thanks,
Raymond
Appox 16 Gl.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Raymond Jordan on June 13, 2011, 01:58:39 am
Thanks Barry! Raymond
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: amos.harrison on June 13, 2011, 05:57:21 am
Check out Cummins Optimax system. No need to change antifreeze ever unless contaminated. Just check chemistry every 6 months with test strips, adding extender as required, and change specified filter every 3 years.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Raymond Jordan on June 13, 2011, 11:21:20 am
Hi all, Do any of the bigger stores carry an approved coolant? Like the Wal-Marts, Advanced Autos, etc. My last change was by the factory. I'm sure I can do it for less $$$. Thanks, Raymond
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Peter & Beth on June 13, 2011, 02:19:05 pm
I've looked at the big box stores to no avail. Today I went to the local Cummins dealer and bought a gallon of the concentrate and mixed it with distilled water 50-50. Now I'm good to go and have no worries. The Fleetguard stuff is about $27 per gallon with the Cummins Power Club dicount (10%).
I don't have a NAPA close by, you may want to check with them or at any truck stop like T/A or Pilot/FJ.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Kent Speers on June 13, 2011, 05:01:24 pm
If you can use regular vehicle antifreeze in your particular engine like my Detroit, Orielly has Peak 50/50 on sale for $6.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Peter & Beth on June 13, 2011, 05:26:22 pm
Kent, My Cummins needs the DCA additive for the engine coolant. So I'd better use the DCA or suffer the consequences, which I most definitely do not!
The Cummins No. is CC2830 which is an extended life coolant and this includes the DCA required. My filter spec is also the WF2071 which has a DCA charge as well. I would have bought the test strips but the only package they had was a 50 pack for $70 with an expiration date of August 2011...sooooo... no go there.
I left kinda confused as I had thought that if the filter had the DCA the coolant did not have to have any DCA. I think I'll call Cummins and ask them directly.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Kent Speers on June 13, 2011, 05:35:24 pm
Kent, My Cummins needs the DCA additive for the engine coolant. So I'd better use the DCA or suffer the consequences, which I most definitely do not!
The Cummins No. is CC2830 which is an extended life coolant and this includes the DCA required. My filter spec is also the WF2071 which has a DCA charge as well. I would have bought the test strips but the only package they had was a 50 pack for $70 with an expiration date of August 2011...sooooo... no go there.
I left kinda confused as I had thought that if the filter had the DCA the coolant did not have to have any DCA. I think I'll call Cummins and ask them directly.
Peter, I think you are right. All of the Cummins engines except the B5.9 require the special Diesel antifreeze with the anti bubbling additive. As I understand it some of the Cat engines, the 6V92 and maybe other Detroits and the Cummins 5.9 can run regular automotive antifreeze since they are dry sleeve engines.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: wolfe10 on June 13, 2011, 05:38:25 pm
Kent,
Caterpillar even recommends SCA (unless using an OAT-based ELC) for their patent bore (non-linered engines).
I would be surprised if Detroit Diesel did not require it in all their engines as well.
Brett
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Kent Speers on June 13, 2011, 06:04:57 pm
Caterpillar even recommends SCA (unless using an OAT-based ELC) for their patent bore (non-linered engines).
I would be surprised if Detroit Diesel did not require it in all their engines as well.
Brett
My coach has the green antifreeze in it now and to my knowledge, the PO was a stickler for proper maintenance. I hope Pierce or Bill Chaplin will chime before the Peek sale goes off. I think I read a tech bulletin in this regard. I will try to find it.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Raymond Jordan on June 14, 2011, 01:22:47 pm
Hi all, Will this coolant work in the M-11 Cummins? It's called Final Charge, 50/50 mix. I hope the attachment shows. It's stocked in my local Pep Boys. It's is Cat EC-1 compliant.
Thanks again, Raymond
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: amos.harrison on June 14, 2011, 02:21:12 pm
If it meets the Cummins spec., it will say so on the back.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Michelle on June 14, 2011, 02:27:59 pm
If it meets the Cummins spec., it will say so on the back.
Here's the website Final Charge 50/50 Pre-Diluted Antifreeze (http://www.finalcharge.com/finalcharge5050.html) .
Says it meets "Cummins 14603". Is that the desired spec?
Descriptor states "FINAL CHARGE 50/50 Pre-Diluted Global Extended Life Coolant features a patented Organic Acid Technology (OAT) formula that delivers total cooling system protection for 600,000 miles of on-road use (6 years of 12,000 hours or off-highway use) without the use of Supplemental Coolant Additives (SCAs). The only maintenance required is the addition of FINAL CHARGE Extender at 300,000 to 400,000 miles of on-road use (3 years or 6,000 hours of off-highway use). When required, you should also top-off the cooling system with FINAL CHARGE or FINAL CHARGE 50/50 Pre-diluted Global Extended Life Coolant/Antifreeze.
FINAL CHARGE 50/50 Pre-Diluted Global Extended Life Coolant is a phosphate-free, silicate-free, nitrite- free and borate-free globally formulated coolant which uses proprietary organic corrosion inhibitors to provide superior wet sleeve liner cavitation and corrosion protection of all cooling system metals. "
Michelle
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 14, 2011, 03:25:47 pm
Here is a link to ELC suppliers: Diesel Forum - TheDieselStop.com - View Single Post - Locating ELC (Extended (http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/1679377-post3.html) . Looks as if the keyword is TMC RP 329 and RP 338 It should have this on the site/back of container. Here is the Shell site for an example: SHELL ROTELLA ELC EXTENDED LIFE - Buy Online Now! SHELL ROTELLA ELC EXTENDED (http://www.mil-specproducts.com/products/SHELL-ROTELLA-ELC-EXTENDED-LIFE) In reading this, it appears it will do the job for Extended Life Coolant on all engines a Foretravel might have. Shell's price for a case of 6 (12 gallons of coolant) is about $92. Must be a sale to bring this down $20 or so.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Don Hay on June 14, 2011, 03:53:28 pm
Ray Jordan Asked: "Will this coolant work in the M-11 Cummins? It's called Final Charge, 50/50 mix." Ray, Final Charge, 50:50 is what Keith Risch, chief mechanic at Motorhomes of Texas (MOT) uses. I just switched over to it 6 months ago from a regular coolant.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Bill Willett on June 14, 2011, 03:57:49 pm
I changed mine about 4 months ago, I followed Brett's instruction and put in the Final Charge and a blank water filter. ^.^d
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Raymond Jordan on June 14, 2011, 04:04:43 pm
Hi all, On the Final Charge web page they say it meets the Cummins 14603 spec. Thanks to everyone for the help. One gallon 50/50 is $10.99 at Pep Boys
Raymond
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: wolfe10 on June 14, 2011, 04:15:17 pm
Hi all, On the Final Charge web page they say it meets the Cummins 14603 spec. Thanks to everyone for the help. One gallon 50/50 is $10.99 at Pep Boys
Raymond
If you are changing coolant, I would recommend against the premix. You will have gallons of water that you can not reasonably drain out of the lines to the water heater and dash heater as well as those two devices. After the final flush with distilled water, add the proper quantity of full strength coolant to make 1/2 of cooling system capacity and top off with distilled water. That way, you WILL have a 50/50 mixture.
Brett
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Raymond Jordan on June 14, 2011, 04:20:28 pm
Hi Brett, Thanks for the info. I just was reading an older post, from you, advising against the 50/50 mix. You answered my question before I could ask! Thanks again,
Raymond
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Bill Willett on June 14, 2011, 06:02:28 pm
Brett, I unhooked the heater hose at the block, hooked up my air hose set for 10 psi and blew the lines clean, it was 1 and a half gallons in the system.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: wolfe10 on June 14, 2011, 08:13:00 pm
Bill,
Many systems with both motor aid water heaters and dash heater have quite a lot more volume.
The exact amount in the hoses and "auxiliary components" is not published. As an example, a 40' coach has 8 more feet of hose than a comparably equipped 36'.
Much safer to determine total capacity and add half that amount a coolant concentrate and just add (who cares how much) distilled water to top it up.
Also, a lot easier to get all the air out of the cooling system than artificially injecting one plus gallons of air.
Brett
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: spike45 on June 23, 2011, 02:42:50 pm
Can I use the Prestone Extended Life Coolant made for auto & light trucks (on label) to fill the overflow tank at a 50-50 mix ratio? I do not use any extended life coolant. The coolant in there now is the Prestone regular stuff (I think, can't be sure as the local Cummins dealer has been replacing every two years for the past 6 years).
The label indicates it is silicate, phosphate, borate and nitrate free.
Prestone has an extensive line of engine coolants but most MH owners will find the list intimidating. Antifreeze / Coolant | Products | Prestone® (http://www.prestone.com/enca/products/antifreeze_coolant/product_list) You do have to know what coolant is suitable for your diesel engine. Of the Prestone products suitable for a diesel engine you have Prestone Heavy Duty formulated with Pencool SCA additives. Another choice in the Prestone line is Prestone Heavy Duty Extended Life. The main product in Prestone to stay away from for your diesel engine is anything oriented to Light Duty, Dexcool, or Long Life concentrate or premix. When considering these coolants, they must conform to ASTM D6210. If the ASTM standard, D3306 is the only spec, it is a light duty automotive coolant unsuitable for a diesel engine.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: spike45 on June 23, 2011, 02:59:40 pm
Another related question. I understand that when switching to extended life coolant, the system is not considered extended life until a second replacement of the coolant. If this is true, then what is the typical procedure?
a. Perform the first change to extended life coolant, run system for a short while, say a month, then flush the second time, or,
b. Perform the first change to extended life coolant, run system for 2 years, then flush the second time.
I say in b. above as regular coolant is good for 2 years anyway, so why waste 2 years' use of coolant?
Anyone have input, or is there some secret coolant manufacturer marketing code I don't understand?
In the engine coolant business extended life as a term has certainly been perverted by some company's marketing people. With the advent of the first OAT coolant, Texaco Extended Life Coolant with Nitrite, their marketing talk was that you needed their specific technology to achieve long life from the coolant. Some bought that story. Others questioned that as there was ample evidence in the HD trucking business that conventional coolants were never changed through out the life of the truck.
What is it that gives coolant a specific lifespan? The real story on coolant life has to do with changes that happen to coolant that cause it to be unsuitable for continued use. No company's inhibitor technology can over come the following: oil in the coolant, pH degrading over time, coolants with ammonia odor, coolants that have a strong non-coolant odor. All of these can be attributed to operational issues in the engine. An engine has an oil cooler failure releasing small amounts of lubricating oil into the coolant. While there may not be much showing in the surge tank or radiator top tank, small amounts of coolant adversely affect the performance of the SCA to protect the liners and parent bore cylinder walls (non-liner engine) against cavitation pitting process. Oil coats the surface and the SCA cannot continue to protect. The coolant can be new but still be over as to useful life because of this issue. Coolants naturally degrade with time and mostly heat to lower and lower pH levels. Eventually you get to the change threshold. No SCA or OAT inhibitor can stop it but can prolong the inevitable. Conventional coolants (non-OAT) are much better at prolonging this problem than OAT. It is a long story in chemistry why that is so.
The real story on OAT coolants like the original Texaco ELC, CAT ELC, Shell Rotella ELC (all generation 1 OAT) and the latest OAT technology (nitrite-free) is that they are extended service interval coolants. There are several conventional coolants that fall into the category of extended service. They too suffer the same "life limiting" issues as OAT. When the OAT coolants call for an extender to be added at some point or a conventional coolant calls for additions of SCA at oil change intervals they are both talking about maintenance of the chemistry, not longer operating life of the coolant.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Harvey Nelson on June 23, 2011, 11:22:00 pm
Thanks to this great thread I'm going to switch to Final Charge (NOT premix - thanks Brett). Per Barry and my manual it looks like my cooling system (U320 with ISM11) capacity is 16 gallons. As I read it this is the total including heater loop etc. Some questions:
Flushing: How many times should I drain and refill with distilled water before going for the final fill?
Method: Any words of wisdom on getting a good drain?
Maintenance: What is the process for maintaining the coolant long term? Don Hay, did MOT have a suggestion of what to do in the future now that you have converted to Final Charge? Bill, what are your plans?
Gary, you had a great description of the long term issue but I didn't figure out what to do down stream with Final Charge.
Thanks a bunch folks for all the great information.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Don Hay on June 24, 2011, 12:20:03 am
Harvey asked: " Don Hay, did MOT have a suggestion of what to do in the future now that you have converted to Final Charge?"
I can't remember the exact length of time, but I think in 3 years I am supposed to add an extender, which will keep it going for another 3 years.
I will check with them, as my coach is there right now for a new fridge.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: spike45 on June 24, 2011, 12:49:35 pm
Thanks to this great thread I'm going to switch to Final Charge (NOT premix - thanks Brett). Per Barry and my manual it looks like my cooling system (U320 with ISM11) capacity is 16 gallons. As I read it this is the total including heater loop etc. Some questions:
Flushing: How many times should I drain and refill with distilled water before going for the final fill?
Method: Any words of wisdom on getting a good drain?
Maintenance: What is the process for maintaining the coolant long term? Don Hay, did MOT have a suggestion of what to do in the future now that you have converted to Final Charge? Bill, what are your plans?
Gary, you had a great description of the long term issue but I didn't figure out what to do down stream with Final Charge.
Thanks a bunch folks for all the great information.
When you use Final Charge Concentrate and mix it with an equal volume of water you may be surprised when you read the freeze point. Conventional coolants (not OAT) and the original Texaco/Shell ELC OAT coolants would yield a premixed freezepoint of -34F +/-. Final Charge contains a very high level of organic acid inhibitors such that it will skew the freeze point when you check it with a hydrometer. Since most who read this will only use a cheap plastic floating indicator hydrometer, your freeze point readings could be wildly off. In my job, I use a refractometer which is very accurate. I would not expect that you would spend $130 for one of these. Typical reading for a refractometer on Final Charge premixed is around -40F. In reality, it is closer to -34F.
As to flushing to convert to Final Charge, there is no need for repeated water flushes. One water flush is sufficient. Final Charge is not that much different from the conventional coolant you have now.
Maintaining Final Charge is simple. There is no strip testing that you can use that will tell you if you are protected or not. Be SURE to always refill low coolant levels with Final Charge and you will be just fine. After three years, add one quart of their extender liquid for each 12 gallons of coolant capacity. If you find that you need more than one quart but not two, use the whole two quarts. You cannot hurt the system with that extender liquid.
One last thought on Final Charge is that while it is marketed as a 6 year life coolant unless something major happens to the coolant it will be able to run longer. The KEY to it is keeping that coolant in the system and not diluting it with other coolants or chemistries. That way, you can rest knowing you are covered. Final Charge has been shown to meet the Caterpillar and Cummins engineering standards for coolant in their respective engines.
Title: Re: Prestone Extended Life Coolant
Post by: Harvey Nelson on June 24, 2011, 03:12:25 pm
Gary, Thank you for the very thoughtful and complete response. It is very much appreciated.