Foretravel Owners' Forum

Just had a friend stop by that is a fleet manager for local company. We were discussing maintenance things when the subject came up how they are changing over to "Final Charge" coolant on all of there Cummins engines.  He said that if you have a well maintained antifreeze system that you have keep up with your test you don't have to completely drain and flush your system. You can get a "Final Charge Converter" and follow directions as to how much "old style" antifreeze needs to be drained out and replaced with the "converter" and plug off the old antifreeze additive with a blank and you are good to go. This saves them on disposal of old and claim it is more cost effective. 
Has anyone went this route? Or is this just a fleet short cut?

Wow,  purposely mixing old about to be replaced coolant with your brand new coolant? No thanks-- WAY too much of a short cut.

Brett

Cummins own product Optimax has exactly the same approach, provided you have already been using an ELC product.  If the ph is OK, and the coolant is clear, you can use Optimax Extender to convert, then continue six month testing.

One of those key statements was a 'well maintained' cooling system.  If you are following your engine's O&M Guide requirements or any coolant that meets ASTM D6210, then conversion to Final Charge is one way to go.  For the costs involved in using any of the new OAT coolants that do not contain the conventional SCA inhibitors and the few miles that most MHs get yearly, it may not be cost effective.  If your MH engine has a coolant filter, continued use of it will avail you of the service it provides in removing core sand, dirt, machining particles and other solids.  These circulating solids can be damaging to soft metals such as are found in radiators and heater cores.  Blank filters without chemistry are available form filter companies.  One such filter is available from Fleetguard, WF2123.  It can be left on a system safely for two years without damage or break down of the filtering medium. Similar products to this one may be available from Baldwin, Donaldson, or Wix.

Final Charge Convertor Liquid at one gallon per 12 gallons of system capacity is simple to use.  Drain sufficient used coolant from your system to accommodate the required gallon(s) to match your system capacity.  The convertor will disperse through the system with engine operation.  Refill low coolant levels with Final Charge premix only if you want to keep it that way.

Fleetguard no longer offer ES Optimax OAT coolant.  We replaced it with ES Compleat OAT, our own formula.  Optimax was based on Final Charge with another inhibitor package we added to give it super liner pitting protection.  Final Charge has a very decent liner pitting protection without the addition of nitrite and molybdate additives that Optimax had.

Conversion of any coolant to another type such as a full OAT (organic acid technology) can be accomplished by confirming that your present coolant is acceptable to run further.  Test strips are available that can test for the pH of your present coolant.  Any coolant that has a pH of >7.9 to <11 would be a candidate for conversion.  Most engine coolants if run long enough will eventually 'die' from low pH.  Few ever have elevating pH where it goes up into the 11+ range but it does happen occasionally.

For those who find conversion not to their liking, simple drain the old coolant and refill with the new coolant.  Conversion is not considered by any coolant manufacturer to be a short cut but a legitimate process.  Early on, the OAT coolant companies (Texaco and Shell) with the first generation OAT coolants made conversion so difficult that customer objected strenuously.  They quickly changed their tune to gain customer acceptance.  Who says 'your vote doesn't count?'  :)

Gary,

Background:  At each Caterpillar RV Engine Owners Club Rally, we use the three way test strips check the coolant in all the coaches: pH, freeze point and SCA concentration.  The exception is those coaches with ELC or other OAT-based coolant.  So, our data base is 300+ coaches.

Less than 25% of the coaches tested had acceptable readings on all three tests. 

Your "if well maintained" is critical here.  Based on my field experience, well maintained cooling systems on RV's is the exception, not the rule.

Here is an all too common comment posted yesterday on the FMCA Forum (SCA Testing - FMCA Motorhome Forums (http://community.fmca.com/topic/934-sca-testing/)

Brett and Gary,
Thanks for some great information on cooling systems. I have never changed or even thought of changing my fluid. I have copied this complete post and will study it all and see if I need to make any changes. 2002 Dynasty Cummins 400 ISL.

 Foretravel used different coolants than many of the major chassis makers over the years, so the right answer is to determine what you have, how old it is, if anything but that coolant has ever been added, and what test needs to be used to confirm that it is good condition. Again, the test strips for "low silicate for diesels with added SCA" are not valid for ELC and likely other OAT-based coolants.

With the damage that can be done by poorly maintained cooling systems, particularly with linered engines, err on the side of caution.  Saving a few bucks here may well cost BIG bucks down the road.

Brett

We can agree that average cooling system maintenance for RV (and many HD trucks too) are less than what Cummins, Caterpillar or DDC specify.  Still, there is nothing wrong as you imply, about converting existing non-OAT coolants to Final Charge, in this case.  It is conceivable that one could convert a low silicate non-precharged coolant to Final Charge using their convertor liquid.  Final Charge does not need the presence of nitrite or molybate to protect against cavitation thus the existence of these conventional SCA chemicals is not required for conversion.  Seeing coolants with low pH as a result of high miles and heavy loading is very unlikely in a MH.  Thus, I would not be overly concerned about used coolant pH before conversion.  The simple tests that an owner can do is to smell coolant as I stated earlier.  Normal engine coolant odor has a slightly sour odor from the hose liner elastomer compounds and curing agents.  Normal coolant odor can be somewhat 'sweet'.  Odors like ammonia and a strong solvent-like odor are indicative of issues that are partially the result of low pH and/or glycol degradation from prolonged exposure to high temps in the cylinder head primarily.

The three-way coolant test strips for testing SCA levels have been able to indicate presence of nitrite and molybdate in Caterpillar ELC as that coolant contains generous portions of both additives.  If there is no indication the reason is  more likely due to refilling low coolant levels with Dexcool or similar OAT coolant because the color is similar to the original CAT ELC (strawberry red).  I have been at this line of work for 21+ years and have seen the advent of OAT coolant, generation 1 and now generation 2.  This stuff is not some magic elixir that can cure all the ills of the cooling system.  It is another choice in inhibitor technology, nothing more.  Conversion to it is not big deal if convertor liquids are available. 

Converting to CAT ELC from conventional coolant is as simple as refilling present coolant low levels with ELC. Caterpillar does not offer convertor liquids nor did Texaco/Shell.  Eventually, the system becomes all CAT ELC.  To do so, though, would require that the owner's present coolant meet ASTM D6210.  For those owners who are not sure if they can or should convert vs complete change out, if you cannot find sufficient SCA in your present coolant using test strips, dump that coolant and install the ELC.  If you have sufficient SCA (1.5 units per gallon using Fleetguard CC2602 test strips) or 1200 PPM nitrite measured with a Penray coolant test strip, start topping off with the ELC product. 

For those who are reading this and find that changing or converting your coolant to be intimidating, by all means go to Caterpillar, Cummins, Detroit Diesel dealer and have them do this for you.  Your biggest hurdle may be disposal of used engine coolant if you decide to change completely vs conversion.

For all who read this, you may find these recommendations not to your liking but I make my living (Cummins, Inc subsidiary Cummins Filtration/Fleetguard) doing this and have for 21+ years.  I work with multi-million dollar truck companies and major coal and metals mining corporations whose coolant maintenance can make or break them if my advice is wrong.

Gary,

From a current Caterpillar Corp Document on ELC:  http://www.cat.com/cda/files/87058/7/elcfaq.pdf (http://www.cat.com/cda/files/87058/7/elcfaq.pdf)

BTW this is the procedure discussed at the Caterpillar Maintenance Seminars at FMCA conventions and this is the procedure I followed as well.  That doesn't mean you couldn't "get away" with doing less.  But unless there is a compelling reason to disregard engine corporation recommendations, I don't. They clearly don't mention merely topping off with ELC will give you the benefits of ELC.


Question: My truck/equipment has conventional coolant in it, but I would like to use ELC. How do I convert my truck?


Answer: Follow these steps:
1. Drain the coolant into a suitable container.
2. Dispose of the coolant according to local regulations.
3. Remove the empty ACA filter and remove the filter base. Plug the coolant lines or bypass the coolant lines to the filter base.
4. Flush the system with clean water to remove any debris.
5. Use Cat cleaner to clean the system. Follow the instructions on the label.
6. Drain the cleaner into a suitable container. Flush the cooling system with clean water.
7. Fill the cooling system with clean water and operate the engine until the engine is warmed to 49 to 66 deg. C (120 to
150 deg. F)
8. Drain the cooling system into a suitable container and flush the cooling system with clean water.
NOTE: the cooling system cleaner must be thoroughly flushed from the cooling system. Cooling system cleaner that is left in the system will contaminate the coolant. The cleaner may also corrode the cooling system.
9. Repeat steps 7 and 8 until the system is completely clean.
10. Fill the cooling sytem with Caterpillar ELC.
11. Attach the special publication, PEEP5027, 'label' to the radiator in order to indicate the use of Caterpillar ELC.
* Caterpillar recommends submitting a S•O•S Coolant Analysis Level 2 sample to verify that no cleaner is left in the system.

Prior to vacation last summer I had coach at CAT shop and had coolant changed.  They list 11 gallons of ELCoolant and a water filter and show that it was flushed on receipt.  Stuff was green when I went in and red now.  I guess they followed the above but I don't plan on waiting six years.  I will probably go in at three for another change.

That's the spirit we need in this country....spend that money, Dwayne.    ;)  There is no issue with running the coolant for less than recommended service life.  But should you experience anything like an oil cooler failure or somehow get oil or diesel fuel in the coolant, its life is over at that point. 

Gary, there have been many discussions about the old two stroke Detroit Diesels. Many of the U300 from early 90's have the Detroit DDEC 6V92 eninges with HT746 Allison four speed transmissions. I have been told by those who should know including Detroit technical people, that the 6V92 does not require any special anitfreeze. The 6V92 is a dry liner engine and regular anitfreeze is fine. I purchased the test strips from Detroit and it says everything is in perfect spec.

Can you help resolve my confusion. I just bought this coach last fall and was ready to change the coolant over to Peak Long Life 50/50 based on what I was told. I got a very good deal on this antifreeze but this was before all of these discussions. I then tested the current coolant with positive results. I am now thinking of returning the Peak to Orielly but I still need to konw, can I use regular car antifreeze with the dry liner engine?

Kent,

I have not looked at a parts manual blowup, but the excerpts here make me tend to believe the 71s are dry liner and the 92s wet or partially wet.

 "agree....the 92 series engine uses a half wet and half dry liner. If the lower (dry) portion is loose it will eventually crack where the air vanes are. Sometimes you can fit it with an oversived liner, but the top and bottom must be the same bore. With the proper hone, it can be honed to fit, or otherwise the block will have to be machined. If the fit is too loose, not only is there potential for movement, but there isn't good enough contact to dissipate heat. Overhauling a Detroit Diesel is not for an amature mechanic to try."

AND:

"But I do stand by my opinion that pure lack of maintenance and overheating are the 2 main reasons for a 6V92 any worse than any other engine.
Now your 8V71's (or any 71 series) are a lot more forgiving about being overheated than any 92 series due to the 71 being a "dry liner" and the 92 being a "wet liner" cylinders of course this would have nothing to do with fuel getting in the oil, but everything to do with "coolant" getting in there.) "

END QUOTES

After reading a lot of forum posts for Detroits, the occasional problem of water in oil, fuel in oil, etc, etc. is shared by all diesel engine brands.

Also, reading these makes me more aware how important sending in your oil for a analysis is. Cheap insurance. Several others drivers in the forums have also indicated they give the dipstick a "sniff" test when they check the level in the morning.

OK, here is what I think I understand.

Don't ever let the 6V92 run over 210 degrees for any length of time.

I can use standard antifreeze if I wish, just test it regularly. I confirmed this for the third time with the two stroke guru at United Engines, the Detroit authorized repair center here in OKC. The antifreeze tested perfectly with the Detroit test strips I just bought while at United Engines asking my questions.

Test the oil and trans fluid every six months or six thousand miles (I just received 6  prepaid Blackstone test kits).