Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: John Haygarth on June 22, 2011, 10:42:37 am
Title: Surge Guards
Post by: John Haygarth on June 22, 2011, 10:42:37 am
I have been thinking of getting one for my coach as you never know what happens while asleep etc. I am sure a lot of the members have one (aside from using the inverter protection) and would be interested in hearing what you bought and why that one. Also comment to see how it measures up to what you hoped for! Has anyone had success for instance when using a 50amp one that is converted down for 30 or even 15 amp plugs? I am working towards not needed shore power but still have to plug in now and again, and some of the places we find ourselves there is no 50 let alone 30 amp service. I DO allways check for Polarity issues, no matter where, and I am able to correct that with the simple plug and lead adapter I have made that will reverse Polarity and correct "no ground" problems very quickly on 120v 15 amp feeds. Thanks for any feed back.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Tom Lang on June 22, 2011, 12:57:45 pm
I too am interested i hearing what you all have to say.
I believe my 2003 has some kind of protection built in, but have no idea how good it is.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Barry Beam on June 22, 2011, 01:13:05 pm
I too am interested in hearing what you all have to say.
I believe my 2003 has some kind of protection built in, but have no idea how good it is.
They did start putting in surge & Hi/Low protection in 2003 model year.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Dwayne on June 22, 2011, 02:02:14 pm
I have the surgeguard 50 amp external unit with a hasp lock at the power cord connection. I bought it used on Craigslist two years ago and have been happy with it. It takes about a minute or two till you get power so it must be doing something. I feel a little exposed in that if it craps out I would assume that the power was bad at CG and have no way to really be sure. I've been thinking about making the do it yourself power tester someone posted on this site some time ago.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Dwayne on June 22, 2011, 02:03:03 pm
meant to say padlock on one of those cord connection covers.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: J. D. Stevens on June 22, 2011, 02:46:52 pm
We use the SurgeGuard 34750 portable. We have used it for about 14 months. We've had no problems with the unit, nor has it detected any problems with power pedestals.
It will work on a 30 amp, 20 amp, or 15 amp source if the source is wired through an adapter to supply both legs of a 50 amp receptacle into which the SurgeGuard will plug.
It enforces a 2 minute 15 second delay after stable power is detected before supplying power to the coach. It therefore protects the coach from a bouncing power source. It is advertised to shut down on out of range voltage (<102V or >132V). It will also shut down on open neutral. It shows a caution light in case of reverse polarity or elevated ground voltage. <http://www.trci.net/products/surge-guard/hardwires-portables/50a-portable> (http://www.trci.net/products/surge-guard/hardwires-portables/50a-portable>)
We don't protect it with any kind of lock. Fortunately, no one has stolen it yet.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Pamela & Mike on June 22, 2011, 03:06:45 pm
John, We have a 50A that was made by RV Electronics (no longer made) that we use and has 3200 joules. After seeing what happened when power company voltage regulator failed, if we are plugged in we go through the surge guard. Back then we couldn't find one that was hard wired in but when we replace this one it will be hard wired so it protects both shore and generator. (TRC Surge Guard with remote) We have run ours through a 30A to 50A dogbone and it worked. Once it trips on high voltage (about 130V) it will time out after about 2 min. Can't recall what the low set point is but it has to time out on that too.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 22, 2011, 03:52:02 pm
Just a little point of interest, all the surge guards / suppressors do not work IF you do not have a GOOD ground connection. Seen lots of fancy suppressors installed ahead of expensive equipment that failed to catch the surge BECAUSE without a proper ground, the surge guard or what ever has nothing to shunt to. Another educational experience in the generator game. If you are in a stormy area, I would disconnect from post and run genset if I needed power. Do not depend on the magic box to save your bacon every time. As usual FWIW
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Dave and Nancy Abel on June 22, 2011, 04:19:05 pm
Howdy John, I use the Progressive Industries HW50c with remote display. Permantently installed under the bed with the display next to the FT supplied power monitor. I have it wired to protect from both Shore Power and Generator. Here's a couple of links: Progressive Industries 50 Amp RV Electrical Management System w Remote Display - (http://tweetys.com/electrical-management-system-hardwire-50.aspx) https://www.lawrencerv.com/products.asp?cat=9
I've had it installed about six months, so far, so good. It has caught a couple of ground issues at a couple of RV parks. Good Luck, Dave Abel
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: George Stoltz on June 22, 2011, 05:20:48 pm
Just a little point of interest, all the surge guards / suppressors do not work IF you do not have a GOOD ground connection. Seen lots of fancy suppressors installed ahead of expensive equipment that failed to catch the surge BECAUSE without a proper ground, the surge guard or what ever has nothing to shunt to. Another educational experience in the generator game. If you are in a stormy area, I would disconnect from post and run genset if I needed power. Do not depend on the magic box to save your bacon every time. As usual FWIW
Dave,
Now that you've identified a potential problem, how can someone determine if they have a good ground or not? Thanks.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Don Hay on June 22, 2011, 05:31:44 pm
I used a portable 50 amp Surge Guard for about 4 years. After 2 years, I had to send it back to have a new resistor/diode? replaced. Two years after that it stopped working again. I decided to switch over to Progressive Industries permanently-installed model HW50C, identical to David Abel's. To Quote David: " I use the Progressive Industries HW50c with remote display. Permanently installed under the bed with the display next to the FT supplied power monitor. I have it wired to protect from both Shore Power and Generator." Adding Built in Progressive EMS (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/progressive_ems.htm) I have been using the HW50C for more than 3 years without incident.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Jim Frerichs on June 22, 2011, 05:33:28 pm
Dwayne, I made a metal surround, double padlock and hasp combo for my portable EMS surge suppressor (hey, I like welding). Maybe I'm paranoid, because also I carry an extra 50 amp plug in case someone cuts-off the whole thing. Boy Scout Motto...be prepared.
Quote
meant to say padlock on one of those cord connection covers.
Dwayne Keith 1992 U240
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: George Hatfield on June 22, 2011, 05:42:39 pm
We have the Progessive Industries portable 50 amp unit....
We've had it for about a year and have had no problems. It has turned the power off a couple of times, but it then came back on with in a few minutes. I assumed it detected a problem of some sort. I use it to check the 50amp circuit before plugging in the line from the coach. If there are no errors (E=0), I then plug in. Don't use my circuit tester any more.
My only complaint is that the box is a bit large and the cord a bit short. On some power stanchions it tends not to lay flat. This could affect the ground contact, but this is something I keep an eye on and we have had no problems. I lock it to the stanchion with a wire cable and paddle lock.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 22, 2011, 06:41:38 pm
For me, I prefer the outdoor model chained/cabled to the post. The idea of the surge supressor under my bed is not the way for a warm comfy feeling. Maybe I've seen too many no so nice explosions in the suppressors/surge guards items. Happy dreams :)
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on June 22, 2011, 07:02:26 pm
I have been thinking of getting one for my coach as you never know what happens while asleep etc. I am sure a lot of the members have one (aside from using the inverter protection) and would be interested in hearing what you bought and why that one. Also comment to see how it measures up to what you hoped for! Has anyone had success for instance when using a 50amp one that is converted down for 30 or even 15 amp plugs?.............................................
John, There is a LOT of good information on FOFUM's. For example, search our site for "Progressive Industries", and one receives more than 60 "hits" of information well worth digesting. For example, over three years ago I posted after more than two years of positive experience with the Progressive Industries EMS Model HW50C : Campground electrical protection (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=5726.msg23761#msg23761) My on-going experience continues to be positive with the PI EMS HW50C. It works on any 50, 30, even 15 A shore power. It has done more than I would have anticipated and I still find the Company owners to be highly customer oriented and responsive. I have had at least four valid protection trips in the past year, one on 50 A campground service low voltage on one leg, one on a 30 A campground service intermittent ground and three on my own generator, each time on undervoltage on both legs. Not one of these would I have found myself, by meter, as they occurred well after having verified good service by meter and by the PI EMS upon initial plug in to park power, or long after my generator was started and running normally. FWIW, Neal
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Chad and Judy on June 22, 2011, 07:40:20 pm
Posting the comment about explosions in suppressors/surge guards is sure to alarm a few people, like my spouse. Thanks for the insight.
Quote
The idea of the surge supressor under my bed is not the way for a warm comfy feeling. Maybe I've seen too many no so nice explosions in the suppressors/surge guards items. Happy dreams :)
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Dan Stansel on June 22, 2011, 08:12:26 pm
I have the Progressive portable 50 Amp and use a cable lock. It has saved me couple of times especially at a rally using a large generator. I found they crank these things up during the day when everyone is operating their ac, but at night when a lot of ac go off these large generators are still putting out a lot of power and can over load the circuits. I was at the FMCA six state rally in N Little Rock and they had two generators catch on fire which supplied power to my line of coaches. I also had it stop working. Called progressive and sent it to them, they repaired and sent it back to me overnight at no cost to me. Great people to do business with. DAN
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Raymond Jordan on June 22, 2011, 08:19:12 pm
Hi John, I have a EMS 50 amp portable from Surge Guard. I bought it used from our former forum leader, John Lang. It was older, and out of warranty. It worked as advertised. It tripped a few times, shut the power off, then came back on. On day we took a lightening strike on our property that fried the Surge Guard box. NO damage to any coach electrics/electronics! I called the Surge Guard people, told them how I obtained the unit, etc. They said send it back to them, and they would check it out, and get back to me. They did this. Within the week I had a new Surge Guard unit at the door. No charge, not even the shipping. That's a great company. They stand behind their product. Best of luck, Raymond
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: John S on June 22, 2011, 09:35:21 pm
I have had the surge guard 50 amp hardwired in my three coaches. I was at FOT and we found out that the power company had a loose neutral at their box. It fired a number of coaches on the line. New fridges and inverters etc butmy surge guard too the surge and burned out. I had it replaced and all was well. I have it in my current coach too. I carry a spare now with me too. It is a simple process to change out if it fries again.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Dan Stansel on June 22, 2011, 10:40:47 pm
John: You seem to carry a lot of spare parts. How many have you actually needed? Dan Stansel
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: John Cooper on June 23, 2011, 12:01:51 am
Dave M,
Ditto George's question. A GOOD ground means a good connection to the soil. If the neutral is tied to the ground at the breaker panel but the ground does not have a good connection to earth how can you tell? I guess that you could drive your own ground rod 8 feet into the ground and ground your surge protector to be sure of a good ground but that would be expensive because it would be impossible to remove the ground rod when you left. (I know because I tried to remove a ground rod from a house that had been torn down.)
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 23, 2011, 06:59:34 am
Grounding is a difficult and sometimes expensive issue. For our home after many costly hits, we wound up with 500' 3" wide copper strap, about 85 ground rods, cad welded around the outside of home in a trench15' away from basement walls and terminated at the electric meter ground/neutral. end of problem, after 15 years and many lightening shows, not an issue. This was extreme, worth while, cost about $4,500.00 15 yrs ago, at leasst double today. Also included the HD Milwaukee rod driver about $800.00.00. At campground, why I suggest disconnecting from power and run genset if you need power, as I trust none of the commercial nor local codes to protect my stuff. As said, FWIW and do what you feel comfy with.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: John Haygarth on June 23, 2011, 12:08:17 pm
wow, am I glad I asked this question because of the feed back that is so valuable. We generally do not park in the RV parks when travelling unless it is the only place around as we are many times off the beaten track to speak. The only time we sit for any real length of time is in mexico where the power is sometimes all over the map. The RV park we are in there has a daily habit of rising and falling and ground for me is a big steel rod pounded in the ground. I do check before hooking up. This is the main reason for us to install and now add onto a solar system and various changes to our power needs. I do not like running the gen-set in a park if possible. I again say thank you to all for the input, and keep this topic active as more info is sure to come in Thanks again
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on June 23, 2011, 05:22:57 pm
Here's another vote for progressive Industries and their EMSPT50C portable unit. I've used mine for about 6 years and wouldn't connect anywhere without it.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Michelle on August 08, 2011, 05:17:43 pm
We use the SurgeGuard 34750 portable. We have used it for about 14 months. We've had no problems with the unit, nor has it detected any problems with power pedestals.
It is advertised to shut down on out of range voltage (<102V or >132V).
I'm bumping this up and Dave, I'm not picking on you, your post just happened to have some pertinent info in it.
We've used the same model TRC Surge Guard portable for 7 years now. It's always worked well, not passing power if there was a problem when we plugged in and doing the 2 minute or so delay.
What we've discovered over the past 2 weeks is that the over/under voltage circuitry has an 8 second delay in it - that is, voltage must be over 132V or under 102V for more than 8 seconds before the unit will trip (this is listed in the on-line user's guide).
Our coach's built-in over/under voltage relay (that was first used in 2003) has saved us from one over voltage and one under voltage condition since we've been in Santa Fe. The TRC Surge Guard, however, never shut down because the conditions lasted less than 8 seconds (although they did repeat at least once in rapid succession in each case, well within the span of a minute).
I couldn't find any info on the Progressive Industries' EMS over/under time delay. Does anyone know what it is (not the start-up one, but if over/under voltage occurs some time after establishing a shore connection)? I'm thinking we would rather have a device that would respond more quickly to kill power, but then wait the 2 minutes before allowing it to pass to the coach. I'd think it would be healthier for the A/Cs, etc.
Michelle
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on August 08, 2011, 05:43:42 pm
Michelle, Just for your info, it seems the industry normal voltage range per UL listing is +/- 10%, however on some of our equipment we add sensors, use the variac and set at +/- 5%. also if outside this range for 3 seconds, we drop load and go to generator. This is the general range I have our home generator system setup for. There can be an issue come up when there is a power outage and the voltage will ot come back up to the 95% level, so the generator will run for a while longer. The point is to keep the voltage level within reasonable levels. I do not like the 105 - 108 level nor the 132 volt level. I love control circuits, relays and timers = Happiness :) Cheers
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Michelle on August 08, 2011, 05:56:28 pm
The point is to keep the voltage level within reasonable levels. I do not like the 105 - 108 level nor the 132 volt level. I love control circuits, relays and timers = Happiness :)
I don't like those low or high end voltages either. Steve will tell you I hawk the voltage readout in the coach constantly (118/119), and I will shut things off if I see anything less than 112 or above 128 on those readouts (which Steve calibrated when he replaced the resistors and bulbs). (118/118)
You know, if you came up with a better surge/voltage protector and generator control I'd buy one from you. ^.^d (118/119)
Michelle (118/118 :)) )
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Patricia on August 08, 2011, 06:07:10 pm
I couldn't find any info on the Progressive Industries' EMS over/under time delay. Does anyone know what it is (not the start-up one, but if over/under voltage occurs some time after establishing a shore connection)?
Michelle... you piqued my curiosity, and I too couldn't find anything online or in the manual - and we own the EMS-PT50C portable unit. I just sent an email to Progressive Industries (in Morrisville, NC), so I'll post the answer when I receive it.
PS I see temps in SF are 90 (10% humidity) - here in Benson, AZ we're the same, but with 34% humidity - so much for Arizona's "dry heat"... another 6 weeks of monsoon season here! >:(
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Bob McGee on August 08, 2011, 06:28:29 pm
Here is an excerpt of the info from my Progressive HW50C manual:
"High low voltage protection: Whenever source power falls below 104 Volts, or rise above 132 volts the EMS automatically shut down power to the RV. Once the AC source rises above 104-volts, or below the 132-volt level the time delay indicator flashes for the preset time and then automatically restores power to RV.
A call to them to talk to an engineer might be in order before relying on the owner's instruction manual which is only 5 pages and no real specifications.
919-462-8280 is Progressive Industries phone nr.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on August 09, 2011, 12:41:20 am
.....................I couldn't find any info on the Progressive Industries' EMS over/under time delay. Does anyone know what it is (not the start-up one, but if over/under voltage occurs some time after establishing a shore connection)? I'm thinking we would rather have a device that would respond more quickly to kill power, but then wait the 2 minutes before allowing it to pass to the coach. I'd think it would be healthier for the A/Cs, etc.......................... Michelle
Michelle,
16 second delay in allowing power to pass upon initial plug-in. Blinking red light on readout indicates that parameters are being evaluated.
Trip (interruption of) power in the sub-nanosecond range when a monitored polarity, ground, surge (all five modes L-N, L-N, L-G, L-G, and N-G) , 240VAC or neutral power parameter goes bad.
Trip in a fraction of a second range (10 cycles, if I recall correctly) on line frequency, undervoltage or overvoltage parameters.
After Trip, monitored power must stay good for >15 or >136 secs before power is restored (user selectable, 136secs is the default. You need to determine based on your A/C's and whether they do or do not have power interruption, restart protection).
Neal
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on August 09, 2011, 07:01:03 am
One small bit of info, Years ago the normal voltage was 110-220 then 112-225, then 115-230, then 120=240, now the power companies are still raising the voltage to 125-250 Volt. So I find it interesting the power Co, keeps giving them self a raise. Heck with the power co. neding capacitors to keep the power factor close to unity, they use every trick to keep the meter spinning. Point is, the voltage limits are a moving target, requiring adjustment to sensing equipment to keep in the "Normal" range Sorry for the rant. ;D
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Dave Head on August 09, 2011, 07:45:53 am
Its inflation.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Ron & Connie Sedgley on August 09, 2011, 08:52:52 am
... I couldn't find any info on the Progressive Industries' EMS over/under time delay. Does anyone know what it is (not the start-up one, but if over/under voltage occurs some time after establishing a shore connection)? I'm thinking we would rather have a device that would respond more quickly to kill power, but then wait the 2 minutes before allowing it to pass to the coach. I'd think it would be healthier for the A/Cs, etc.
Michelle
This is what I have found on the progressive Industries site... EMS-HW50C (http://www.progressiveindustries.net/ems_hw50c.htm) I'm not sure that this completely answers your question.
"Voltage Protection: Whenever source power falls below 104 Volts, or rises above 132 volts, the EMS automatically shuts down power to the RV. Once the AC source rises above 104-volts, or below the 132-volt level, the time delay indicator flashes for the preset time and then automatically restores power to RV.
Time Delay for A/C Compressor: Whenever source power is interrupted by the source or the EMS due to a fault condition, the built in time delay is activated. There are two settings on the EMS; one is 136 seconds, and the other is 15 seconds. Consult you Air Conditioner manual to see if it has a time delay built in. If yes, use the 15-second delay. If no, use the 136-second delay."
Re reading your question a second time I may not have addressed your question completely. I have Progressive Industries HWC-50c installed for over 4 years now. My experience has been whenever there is a trip condition encountered the power interruption is immediate. Power will be restored based upon time delay settings (mine is set at 15 seconds) when the fault condition is cleared.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Patricia on August 09, 2011, 10:39:37 am
This is what I have found on the progressive Industries site... EMS-HW50C (http://www.progressiveindustries.net/ems_hw50c.htm)... Re reading your question a second time I may not have addressed your question completely. I have Progressive Industries HWC-50c installed for over 4 years now. My experience has been whenever there is a trip condition encountered the power interruption is immediate. Power will be restored based upon time delay settings (mine is set at 15 seconds) when the fault condition is cleared.
Ron... according to the manual for the portable EMS-PT50C unit that we've had for a couple of years, we cannot set a time delay to re-start after a trip:
Time Delay for A/C Compressor: If AC power is interrupted, or the EMS detects a fault condition, the built in time delay is activated. There is a 136-second (02:16) time delay.
I have not yet heard from Progressive about how long the over/under voltage condition is allowed before the trip, or if it is immediate. I'll post when I get an email from them.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Michelle on August 09, 2011, 10:44:46 am
16 second delay in allowing power to pass upon initial plug-in. Blinking red light on readout indicates that parameters are being evaluated.
Trip (interruption of) power in the sub-nanosecond range when a monitored polarity, ground, surge (all five modes L-N, L-N, L-G, L-G, and N-G) , 240VAC or neutral power parameter goes bad.
Trip in a fraction of a second range (10 cycles, if I recall correctly) on line frequency, undervoltage or overvoltage parameters.
After Trip, monitored power must stay good for >15 or >136 secs before power is restored (user selectable, 136secs is the default. You need to determine based on your A/C's and whether they do or do not have power interruption, restart protection).
Neal, it looks like you have the hardwired system. From what I can tell for the portable system, there are a couple of differences:
initial power to RV: "The EMS has a 136-second time delay before you will receive power into your RV."
power restored after trip: "If AC power is interrupted, or the EMS detects a fault condition, the built in time delay is activated. There is a 136-second (02:16) time delay."
There's no explicit info in the portable manual on time delay after trip condition is detected - hoping it's the same sub-nano range as the hardwired unit (see previous post about awaiting email response from Progressive on this).
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: PatC on August 09, 2011, 11:37:24 am
Here is a side by side chart so you can compare them all: Electrical Protection Comparison Chart (http://www.viprv.com/ems/ems-chart.cfm) The only thing it doesn't compare is quality.
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Patricia on August 09, 2011, 12:13:24 pm
I just received an email from Progressive in response to my question regarding the portable unit: "What is the amount of the delay (in seconds) before the EMS-PT50C automatically shuts down power if the voltage is under 104V or over 132V?"
Here is their reply:
Under voltage of 104 volts, there is a 6 second delay, over voltage above 132 it is no delay.
Thomas E. Fanelli, President Progressive Industries 414B Airport Boulevard Morrisville, NC 27560 (919) 462-8280 fax: 919-462-6132 tfanelli@progressiveindustries.net
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Michelle on August 09, 2011, 02:32:30 pm
I just received an email from Progressive in response to my question regarding the portable unit: "What is the amount of the delay (in seconds) before the EMS-PT50C automatically shuts down power if the voltage is under 104V or over 132V?"
Thanks, Pat. I've gone ahead and e-mailed them about the EMS-HW50C hardwire unit wrt the same thing.
Michelle
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on August 09, 2011, 02:45:16 pm
..............Neal, it looks like you have the hardwired system. From what I can tell for the portable system, there are a couple of differences:
initial power to RV: "The EMS has a 136-second time delay before you will receive power into your RV."
power restored after trip: "If AC power is interrupted, or the EMS detects a fault condition, the built in time delay is activated. There is a 136-second (02:16) time delay."
There's no explicit info in the portable manual on time delay after trip condition is detected - hoping it's the same sub-nano range as the hardwired unit (see previous post about awaiting email response from Progressive on this).
I just received an email from Progressive in response to my question regarding the portable unit: "What is the amount of the delay (in seconds) before the EMS-PT50C automatically shuts down power if the voltage is under 104V or over 132V?"
Here is their reply:
Under voltage of 104 volts, there is a 6 second delay, over voltage above 132 it is no delay.
Thomas E. Fanelli, President Progressive Industries 414B Airport Boulevard Morrisville, NC 27560 (919) 462-8280 fax: 919-462-6132 tfanelli@progressiveindustries.net
Pat, Thanks for posting Tom Fanelli's response. And yes, I have the hardwired model. I have sent an e-mail to Tom, asking if there are TRIP parameter design differences between HW and Portable Units (least likely - can't imagine that there would be) or maybe generational differences as PI's designs evolved over the years (more likely) or that I just plain didn't understand what he told me at the Tampa Supershow where I purchased my EMS-HW50C many years ago (most likely). My previous answers came from a file of combined materials; my owner's manual, on-line info copies from years ago, notes from discussions with other owners and with Tom at the Supershow, notes on a problem I went through with Power Tech and PI involving spurious trips, etc. We'll see if PI can shed any more light on the TRIP parameters and their design. I'll post back when I hear back from PI. Neal
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Michelle on August 09, 2011, 03:05:51 pm
Pat, Thanks for posting Tom Fanelli's response. And yes, I have the hardwired model. I have sent an e-mail to Tom, asking if there are TRIP parameter design differences between HW and Portable Units (least likely - can't imagine that there would be)
Thanks, Pat. I've gone ahead and e-mailed them about the EMS-HW50C hardwire unit wrt the same thing.
Just received a response from Tom to my question of whether the specs for Over/Under and frequency response times were the same for the PT50C and the HW50C:
Yes they are the same.
Thomas E. Fanelli, President Progressive Industries
Michelle
Title: Re: Surge Guards
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on August 09, 2011, 11:55:35 pm
Getting back to everyone; I wrote the following e-mail to Tom Fanelli of PI, seeking additional information on the EMS-HW50C OV, UV TRIP sequence:
Dear Mr. Fanelli, I wouldn't bother you but I can't find the answers to my questions in either my Owner's literature or on-line on your website. I have owned and admired my hardwired Progressive Industries EMS-HW50C for many years now. I have it installed in a 1998 Foretravel Motorcoach and it has successfully protected and informed me on many occasions. It is a GREAT product and I have elaborated to many others on its superior design and the excellent customer focus of your organization. Recently, a question came up on the ForeForum web site regarding the time interval between the onset of a low voltage (or high voltage condition) and TRIP protection actuation. I had responded to my friends, with what I understood to be the answer (from you or your representatives when I asked the same question at the Tampa Supershow); The EMS-HW50C will sense and TRIP on 104 Vdc decreasing (or 132 Vdc increasing) in a fraction of a second. My understanding is that the EMS-HW50C samples the Line Voltage parameters several times a second and once it accumulates the requisite, consecutive TRIP samples, the unit initiates TRIP. Using my default restart setting of 136 seconds, that starts another timer (two minutes) delaying closure sampling. After two minutes, closure sampling then initiates, going though its 16 second sampling of all parameters and initiates closure if all parameters warrant. It appears that I may have misunderstood, because you provided the following information to another ForeForum member question today.
I just received an email from Progressive in response to my question regarding the portableunit: "What is the amount of the delay (in seconds) before the EMS-PT50C automatically shuts down power if the voltage is under 104V or over 132V?"
Here is their reply: Under voltage of 104 volts, there is a 6 second delay, over voltage above 132 it is no delay. Thomas E. Fanelli, PresidentProgressive Industries 414B Airport Boulevard Morrisville, NC 27560 (919) 462-8280 fax: 919-462-6132
Being retired from the utility industry, I am not surprised that there is a six second delay on the low voltage trip (I assume to prevent spurious TRIPS and because reduced voltage/increased current flow effects do not accumulate instantaneously), but I am curious about how the line voltage (as well as other) parameters are sampled and the engineering design basis for TRIP PROTECTION initiation on each. And are there TRIP parameter design differences between portable and hardwired units? Also, have there been generational differences between units and TRIP parameter designs over the years? Do you have a TRIP parameter design "white paper" that you would be willing to share? I realize that you may not be able to share in-depth answers to all of these questions, but I thank you in advance for your consideration, Neal Pillsbury
I got the following e-mail response;
Neal, You are correct somethings can not be told. The answer that was given to your friend is for all B and C models HW and LCHW models.
Thomas E. Fanelli, President Progressive Industries 414B Airport Boulevard Morrisville, NC 27560 (919) 462-8280 fax: 919-462-6132 tfanelli@progressiveindustries.net (tfanelli@progressiveindustries.net)
So, I'm still not sure. I assume that Tom is saying that Friend Pat's answer is correct; that there is (always?, sometimes?) a six second time delay inserted into undervoltage TRIP for all B, C, HW and LCHW models. Based on what I have experienced and what I see and hear the ABT and EMS relays doing, I would GUESS that there may be a combination (proprietary in nature) of all of the above going on:
Condition 1. There is a 6 second delay if there is a marginal 104 VAC ongoing low voltage condition, (in order to prevent spurious trips and unnecessary trips on power sags, when large appliances start and the incoming voltage momentarily goes lower).
Condition 2. But there is a nearly instantaneous trip when incoming voltage goes from say 120 VAC to less than 100 VAC. I conclude this because I have my EMS-HW50C installed downstream of the Automatic Bus Tranfer Device (ABT), in order to protect from shorepower as well as Generator faults. When I have the generator running and I am also plugged into shore power, the ABT naturally positions to use shorepower. In this condition, if I open the shorepower breaker, the ABT immediately transfers to the Generator, but there are a finite number of milliseconds loss of all voltage to the EMS as the ABT shifts from shorepower to the Generator. That abrupt voltage loss always drops out the EMS and then it goes through the 136 seconds restart sequence (NOT the 16 sec initial sampling sequence). The EMS display also shows a loss of Line voltage for L1 (or L2) "Previous Error" code. So it seems like the EMS is TRIPPING (without a 6 second delay) due to "Undervoltage" and not because there was a long enough loss of AC to have the EMS relay field fully collapse, thus deenergizing the relay and dropping it to its shelf state. My logic may be screwed up here, so correct me if I'm wrong.
At any rate, I respect the proprietary response and still like the EMS-HW50C a whole lot. As Always, FWIW. Neal