Need to remove panel or panels to get to water check valve. Does anyone have a tutiorial on steps to remove. Have taken off outside faucet and all screws. Don't want to force something so making sure what would be the next step..Not sure if I need to remove anything else. Thanks again for the help.
The panel in the service bay behind the taps in my 96 U320 holds the water pump switch, water fill switch, telephone plug, TV coax plug, 120V AC recepticle. I removed the screws holding the panel and scraped of the sealant. The panel came loose with several wires hanging out the back. I cut the panel from top to bottom near the center. I installed more screws and can now easily remove just half of the panel which provides good access to the plumbing and wiring behind.
The most difficult part was removing the weather sealing to allow the panel to be removed. I do not understand why this panel was weather sealed when there is a vent hole in the side panel beside the drawer.
Thanks, panel now off. Guess what...After talking to MOT, mechanics, James T. etc, etc, etc, this couch doens't have a check valve. Oh well, now I learned something new today.
Mot replaced the Water Fill Switch, which seems defective...wonderful...
Sure wish I would have payed attention when my daddy tried to teach me electric and plumbing...Now I'm to old to learn, or at least retain. :-[
Jeff,
Weren't you also having trouble getting water just to come in when hooked up to city, not just trying to fill the tank?
If so, post a photo of your water pump bay, particularly visible plumbing and the ball valve handle positions. You shouldn't need the fill valve working to run off city water. We have ours manually turned off and are running off city just fine.
Michelle
Edited to add - another thought.... there are two switches for the water fill - one under the kitchen sink and one in the utility bay. I believe they operate a control module or relay, not the fill switch directly. It could be the control module that's flaky, not your fill switch.
Similarly, the water pump is run from 3 positions - kitchen, bath, and utility bay. Again via a control module/relay.
I have no idea where these are located. Good question for Triana.
Most likely it is caulked because it looks better that way. But it is a real pain to remove. BTDT.
We are totally stumped. Got the #*^@*#% panel off the utility bay. Outdoor faucet disconnected, sewer flush disconnected, obscure screws in tight corners located, caulk scraped out, knuckles scraped raw and area in question exposed. Water line comes off hose reel into interior compartment and disappears into the bowels of the coach. No check valve in sight ANYWHERE. With all the faucet connections apart, we crimped the water hose, I turned on the city hose bib and Jeff very slowly let the water flow by uncrimping the hose. Water came out of the cold water pipe for the faucet!! I happened to call Gary Omel just after that and his concern is that wherever the check valve might be, it has come apart and there is now a blockage in the line. Could Jeff be correct and we do not have a check valve on this coach?? If the check valve was part of the elbow on the hose reel, it would not have allowed water into the coach to then come out of the faucet connection. I am glad we are parked very near the nicely clean and tidy lavatories in this campground!
With Mike Rodgers, I checked all the valve positions adjacent to and around the water fill valve. They are little petcock type things and are all "open" ... meaning "inline" with the pipe tubing and closed to the drain lines. I have also used the little brass set screw on the side of the water fill valve to manually override the flow adjustment and open the fill valve wide. There is no clear reason why we would not be getting water past the proper point to fill the tanks or run from city water! I surely wish my life was simple. Why didn't I just go for the Pop-up Camper????
Oh well, this too will pass. If I can keep my sanity. Will find out what is happening and post. Have talked many times to everyone I know from James T. to Gary O, . At least, on occasion, we can get water in the tank. Usually runs about 10 minutes then shuts stops both filling the tank and running off shore water. Tried the manual over ride..Nope, doesn't help. Next step we drive 100 miles to find a repair facility.
In the mountains of Colorado and fish are calling me. (They are safe-if you ever saw me fish you would understand).. :))
As we discussed by phone, I'm betting that the new electric fill valve was installed backward. If so, the check valve built into the fill valve would prevent the flow into the tank and city water line. If its like most one way valves there will be an arrow indicating flow direction. If its backwards, just cut the lines and re-install the other way.
Let us know the outcome.
I'm hoping after we get some photos of Jeff and Carol's plumbing around the pump and fill valve, we'll know more. Each coach seems to be different. In ours, the fill valve doesn't come into play at all if hooked up to city water. Our manibloc is fed via a tee in the line before the fill valve.
-M
Trouble shooting with Mike Rodgers has us convinced that the fill valve is not backwards. The small set screw on the side is properly towards the front of the coach. We turned it 90 degrees to manually open the valve ... no joy. The frustrating thing is that it operates sometimes for brief periods. And we cannot reproduce the exact scenario that it seems to like. If we get it to operate for 5 or 10 minutes once a day, we are happy. We have never been able to get the (brand new & calibrated?) tank sensor to show more than a half tank of fresh water. There is a full moon tonight. Is that good or bad??
What is the incoming water pressure? If too high and the coach has an internal pressure regulator, it will clamp off any flow.
Try this,
turn off water supply,
activate fill valve,
slowly open the incoming water spigot and only open it a crack,
listen for water flowing thru the hose.
If you hear water flowing you can open the spigot a little at a time to increase the flow without building the pressure high enough to activate the regulator. If you shut the fill valve off, the pressure will build and possibly activate the pressure regulator and clamping off the flow so leave it on until you are done filling.
Good luck,
Look for these warning signs on Jeff: a lengthening of canine incisors and excessive facial hair.
Jeff:
I would concentrate on the check valve which in my coach is part of the city water hose connection. There are also similar check vavles where the hose connections are for flushing the sewage and gray water tanks. The city water goes through this check vavle, then to the water pressure regulator. The inline water pressure regulator will limit the water pressure in the coach water lines to about 40 or 50 psi, mainly to protect the toilet valve and plastic pipe connectors. A water pressure regulator does not stop the flow of water but a faulty check vavle can stop the flow of water.
I replaced the electric water fill valve with a manual globe valve. When I fill the water tank while connected to city water, I open the door to expose the hot water heater, holding tanks (I also removed the clothe covered plywood which covered the holding tanks), and plumbing. I installed a clear plastic tube between the bottom and top of the water tank. I can now open the fill valve manually and watch the level in the clear tube rise so that the water tank does not get overfilled.
This coach is really making us insane. After all the back and forth and up and down and removal of panels and fiddling and fooling with no clear remedy ... the water from the hose bib has been working for almost 24 hours. We were lucky if we got 15 minutes at a stretch before. We have not, however, been trying to fill the fresh water tank. I am beginning to think that perhaps the auto shut off for the fresh tank is faulty and not allowing us to keep water going in the tank. Maybe? At any rate ... between the water, toilet, cooling and contaminated fuel issues we have had with this baby ... I have decided that our son has come up with the perfect name for our "new" coach. "The Problem Child" ::) I can always change it when this episode is over, right? ^.^d
There is no such thing as a Problem Child, just Challenging Offspring, but that doesn't sound as good. Oh well this too will pass. You may want to head toward Steve and Michelle's location. I'll give you some tips on "Let's get Steve to do it".
275 miles. 6 hours. Sure a lot better than going back to Nac. And I owe Steve and Michelle 3 bottles of Lobo Loco Lodi Chardonnay. If Carol doesn't drink the whole case before we get there.
New to these coaches, but, have you checked the tank vent for blockage? We know that you can not fill a tank without a vent for the air to escape. You have said the tank will fill and then stop, might be a clogged air exhaust vent. Might there be a muddaubber nest in the exit hose?
You could check to see it you are building tank pressure when you are trying to fill the tank. All you would need to do is try to fill, till it stops. You have said that is 10-15 minutes. Turn off the city water at the park hose bib, turn off your pressure pump and open a faucet and see if the built up air pressure in the tank pushes water out of your sink faucet, till the pressure is equalized. There should be no reason a vented tank would supply faucet water at a sink without the 12 volt pump on or the city water on.
Have lost count of the number of times something in the garage did not work, to finally figure out a muddauber has built a egg nest in a welding tip, or hose fitting on air tools. Kent warned me that can happen on the generator breather tube, and showed me which one can stop it from starting.
Back to working, as most of you enjoy your retirement.
"If they show up, we'll get 'er fixed!"
Steve
Steve, you are a push over but you are also "The Man".
Left the "Problem Child" sitting in the campground in Leadville for 8 days while we joined family in the Outer Banks in North Carolina for vacation. Figured we would just resume the nonsense when we got back. Upon arrival, we found that we had managed to lock ourselves out of the coach. Does the "electric lock" switch on the panel by the driver's seat that locks the bay doors also activate the black slide lock on the door panel? Gaining entry involved a picnic table, jimmying the plastic window lock, Jeff on his hands and knees as a step stool and the rare sight of me boosting myself into the bedroom window. Neither graceful nor pretty, but effective.
Eventually, we got things squared away inside and I hit the display for the tank monitors. The Tank Sensor Fairy had visited while we were away, because we now show a FULL tank of fresh water!!! That had not been the case since we left Nac and the new sensors were calibrated to "Full" in the parking lot at MOT! I am now wondering again if the sensor and the automatic shut off for our fresh water tank have played a part in our ability to get water from the street water bib. Any thoughts? We are going to try running street water tomorrow, perhaps. The Magnum Opus Vacu Flush has also apparently healed itself and is behaving nicely in the altitude. We take the coach to a well recommended diesel mechanic tomorrow to have all fuel filters changed out (after adding biocide to the tank) and we begin the process of de-gunking the algae from the fuel tank. Have not located any "fuel polishing" service in the area. The saga continues!!
Carol,
The lock switch by the driver and also on the panel directly in front of the passenger should lock/unlock the bays and the entry deadbolt. I think only the inside lever or the outside key should lock the upper part of the door. In fact, if you accidentally "lock" the coach from the switches with the entry door open, the deadbolt will stick out and you'll leave a mark in the door frame when you try to close the door (don't ask me how I know this ::) )
Can you see your fresh tank from one of the bays? If so, try and see if you can determine the actual water level. Ours will fill to about 1" from the top before the float switch will shut the fill valve. I don't believe this is tied the level sensor that gets calibrated, I'm pretty sure it's a separate sensor. In the right light we can see the actual water level in our tank and I'm curious if yours is basically full with the sensor reading full.
I assume you have the two water fill switches like we do - one under the kitchen sink and one in the utility bay? And I assume the green light comes on and goes off on each with the switch operation? I'm wondering if there's something weird going on with the relay (or switches that operate it) that actually operates the fill valve. I know if we are filling, there's almost no water flow from any of the fixtures. It would be a very remote possibility, but if the fill valve were opening when it was supposed to be closed (and vice versa), that could cause something like what you're experiencing.
Michelle
"We take the coach to a well recommended diesel mechanic tomorrow to have all fuel filters changed out (after adding biocide to the tank) and we begin the process of de-gunking the algae from the fuel tank. Have not located any "fuel polishing" service in the area. The saga continues!!"
The water fill and street water issue continues to puzzle us, but we went on to address other issues with this "Problem Child". We were very much afraid that we had algae or contaminants in the fuel tank. Everything ran OK until we got into the southern edge of Colorado and began to go uphill, when we experienced "bucking" and what really seemed to be a fuel starved engine. When the mechanic began on our coach today, he listened to it for a few minutes, pulled the air filter and dropped it on the floor ... where about a pound of dirt fell out. I think it was air starved, not fuel starved ... and as soon as we began to hit the higher altitudes(7K - 8K ft), there was just not enough oxygen. The indicator (green, yellow, red) for the air filter was showing just enough yellow that you would think about checking it ... not an urgent indicator. We have treated the fuel tank, anyway, changed the fuel filters and oil & filter. This thing should be feeling much better, and now we have a starting point!
If you are still in Leadville, it's pretty much all downhill whichever way you go. The engine just needs to keep the air pressure up.
Best wishes for fewer problems, downhill or uphill.
Carol, Speaking of polishing fuel, we have the equipment here at our shop, we do a lot for some of our diesel engine customers, If you purchase a set of filters for it (3) cheap, your welcome to use it here at shop. Not fancy but price is right. Maybe I can catch up on the race stats and get eyeball on em hi heel racing sneakers. :)
Did the mechanic replace the air filter?
If he did not and you continue to drive any loose grit inside of that air filter will make its way into the engine where it will have a negative impact on your engine.
Last summer with an air filter that was about 8 days old I was curious to see if the very dusty country road we were on for about 3 miles had resulted in any dust getting into the air filter. Fortunately for me and unfortunately for my wallet, I mentioned on the Forum what I had done and was immediately advised to not drive one mile until I put in
a new air filter. Two days and $135 later the local farm supply company had a filter for me.
You bet he replaced it!! In fact, in all of our forum discussions regarding the "bucking" and possible fuel contamination, and in all of the discussion at MOT when we were looking at, inspecting and then buying this vehicle ... no one (OURSELVES included!) ever suggested looking at the condition of the air filter. And now that we think on it, it makes perfect sense. The indicator, as I said, did not show but perhaps one yellow bar. We certainly have learned some valuable lessons with this coach ... and we don't complain about that one bit. This mechanic had ordered the filter on his own initiative, and had it waiting. We brought a conglomeration of fuel filters to the garage, biocide, had ordered the oil we wanted and had our usual collection of sundry parts. His experience paid off, here. I would just warn anyone who is buying a consignment coach ... from MOT or elsewhere ... that when they SAY that they "inspect all major systems", it may mean just that. They LOOK ... but they do not touch, investigate, test or in anyway perform service on any of those systems. Nor will they give you a head's up on things they think YOU should do or look at ... even after you sign the check and it means work for their shop!! We relied on them when they said,"This coach is right and ready to go." Thankfully, the things we missed and are dealing with now are not huge and costly mistakes for us. Live and learn!!
Whew!
The air filter subject has been a fairly hot topic, I always replace my air filter when it gets a lot of dirt in it, I shake alot of dirt out of it once or twice, then replace it. I use a light down inside the filter in shade area, to see how much light I can see through the filter, when it gets plugged up where less then 50% light is visible, I replace the cartridge.
Now that started a round of being informed I was dumb to replace the filter that soon as the filter is not very effective when it is new. Seems the engineering (bright bulbs) feel the filter needs to be dirty to be an effective filter, and replacing it early is just throwing money away meaning you should leave the indicator get up into the mid range of restriction before the filter needs replaced.
I feel that is ONE opinion, like an oil filter I guess they need to be real dirty before they are effective too ?
For me, I change m oil and air filters when I feel they need it, Yes I know I am too dumb, like a box of rocks, but I am happy knowing the engine is getting clean oil and clean air.
As usual FWIW
I feel educating some is a waste of money, they should have been given a shovel and sent to work in the real world.
Way to go Dave I agree totally with you
Jeff and I are grateful for the education we are getting. In the long run, it is our responsibility to learn to check all this stuff and make sure it gets done properly. No dealer, even one with as good a reputation as MOT, is gonna hold our hand and make sure we have no problems. Caveat Emptor!!This experience has taught us a bunch about the different systems on this coach and the different needs mechanically. We met a GREAT mechanic in Buena Vista, Co. .... Ed Swisher of Swisher's Diesel and Automotive. He is a vastly experienced mechanic ... auto, truck, diesel, you name it. He is a great diagnostician, willing to give us an education about why he was doing what he was doing and how to make our engine run better. He has a welding shop, a 5 bay garage and works on everything from semis to school busses to motor homes to autos to 4 wheelers to sports cars. If you need a guy in this area, he is your man. We spent 2 nights in his parking lot as he was called away on emergencies to help folks broken down or keeping working truckers on the road. But he was considerate of our schedule and always let us know why he had to leave and when he would continue with us. I really could not take exception with that sort of dedication. We have learned to check the air filter visually and not rely on the indicator. We have learned that altitude affects EVERYTHING on this coach, in ways we had never dreamed. The engine, the Aqua-hot, the toilet, ME!!! I love my son ... but I think I need to drop down out of these mountains a bit and head for something below 8000 feet. Leadville is just not where I thrive.
When I purchased Jeff & Carol's coach they made sure that it was in great condition and, any thing that needed to be fixed was, before they let me have it. So far 1,385 uneventful miles. Pity everyone is not like them.
Thank you Jeff & Carol.
Keith & Joyce
I found a near red air restriction indicator in KS even tho I had less than a five percent indication when I left GA. My BIL is fleet mgr for a large Company and his opinion was that when I ran thru a rain storm on I 70 the moisture in the air clotted (?) the dirt in the filter and turned it almost to a dry cement. I pulled the filter and sure enough that is what I found d. New filter, end of problem.
Gary B
We got (recommended by someone who knows someone we have never met) the name of a Mobil RV repair guy that agreed to meet us in Colorado City, CO ... after we left the no-oxygen atmosphere of Leadville. He began yesterday by listening to all the crazy symptoms of our water fill and no street water issues, also took a look at our Aqua Hot. Formulated a plan after looking at all the manuals and came back today with a helper and began tracing water lines, removing (and at times altering ) panels to find check valves and any other issue. He finally found the inline check valve ... behind the panel for the main water manifold system. A place that was never suggested by MOT, Triana, forum members ... and, naturally, a place that never occurred to us to look. Ah, well ... it's always the simple stuff that eludes me. The check valve had, indeed, come apart. It was probably restricting the flow of water into the coach AND, the pressure diaphragm that controls the automatic shut off to the fresh water tank could very well have been sticking. We don't know how that affects the street water issue, but we now seem to be able to use street water with no problem. We also learned that our Aqua Hot needs a new electric element AND a new mixing valve. The RV guy said we can do the element ourselves and do not need to pay him to perform that task, and we will wait to have the mixing valve (BIG job) done at a certified shop. If you are in the Colorado City / Pueblo area, do not hesitate to call DK Service Company aka Curbside Quick Service. Duncan Pelham 719-248-8694. He was great, arrives with a trailer full of parts, NAPA sponsored, many years of experience. I feel much better. The Problem Child is coming along!
Carol and Jeff,
I am glad you have solved this water fill problem. And it is really very nice of you two to be finding such well qualified service personnel somewhere else than in Nac. Thank you.
For future reference, Is that just behind the "grey fuzzy" panel that covers the manibloc or is it behind the manibloc? Any chance of a photo?
Have to think this will come in handy for others to know somewhere down the road.
Michelle
Yup. Once you take off the grey fuzzy panel that covers the manibloc, it is rather obvious that there is a check valve ... located in a totally convenient spot for change out when necessary. It had been described to me in detail by several different folks who were trying to help us find it. We just had no idea where to look. Mike Rodgers at MOT and Gary Omel (bless his heart) were convinced that it would be in a spot that made sense. But, since we have never had a coach that HAD a manibloc, OR an Aqua Hot, OR an auto shut-off for the water fill OR any number of other fancy systems, we are complete numbskulls at trouble shooting this stuff. Take off the grey fuzzy panel, look just to the left (on our coach) where the red and white water lines come from the other side of the coach, and there is a very nicely exposed and available brass check valve. D'uh!!
I pulled the "grey fuzzy panel" to replace leaking fittings between the water heater and the Manabloc. In the process, I managed to pull out the screws holding the angle iron to which the panel is attached. I may discard the panel. About the only function I see is to support an electric outlet. I think the Manabloc and all of its piping is a work of art. Why hide it behind a dull grey panel?
We long ago removed Manabloc cover as well as covers over fuel tank, fresh water tank and top half of street-side holding tank panels. Important to keep an eye out for leaks, rubbing, etc. And it gives up more storage space too.
Carol,
Why did he say you needed a mixing valve? Did he exercise it without any change? It should be exercised once a year during annual service. You note the current position, then turn the handle all the way in one direction, then in the other. It may be so difficult initially you will need a wrench to get it freed. If you are planning to replace it anyway, you might just try to free it up yourself.
The mixing valve seems to be frozen in place. He used a good sized wrench on it to the point he was afraid something would break. It is plastic, and we have absolutely no idea how often this unit was serviced ... if ever. (Any suggestions on what we might spray it with to loosen things? How much is plastic?) The salesman at MOT told us that the filters were changed on the generator and the Aquahot "during service" ... but the lack of maintenance that seems apparent on the rest of the coach gives us pause and we doubt that "service" is an accurate term for what was done. The hot water lines do get hot ... so we know that the unit is working well (on the diesel side), but the outgoing lines after the mixing valve are just warm. The electric element is not working and will need to be replaced. We are figuing to get the parts we need and then have them on hand to attempt ourself (mixing valve) or wait to be close to an authorized shop (elec element).
Well, I can confirm that our coach
doesn't have a check valve in the manibloc area, nor did it appear to have one anywhere else
that's working. We disconnected the shoreline hose from the campground water bib, turned on the water pump, and water was pumped out the hose.
Thanks to Lowes, we now have a check valve installed on our shoreline hose, just in case. And it's where we can access it easily if it acts up.
Sure seems odd that we were pumping water out the shore hose.... On the list now is to check behind the utility bay panel at some point to see if there's a failed check valve back there.
Michelle
Steve, Is the connection where you attach the CG hose not equipped with a check valve ? Look in the connection, there should be a PIN that depresses when water pressure is applied. It could be that someone in the past had the check valve stick and the FIX was to pull it apart with needle nose pliers. I have had two of these fail, easily obtained from CW.
Gary B
Our coach has an electric reel hose, so not just an on-board city water connection. We replaced the complete reel a couple of years ago and didn't pay attention for a check valve behind it (don't recall seeing one, though), but that's on the list to check.
-M
Michelle,
There is a check valve behind the utility panel.
I had mine replaced because water was coming back out the hose reel. ???
When my check valve failed I attached a nozzle to the end of the hose until I repaired the valve.
Carol, I'd try some Corrosion "X" on that stuck valve. Someone at FOT CG told me it works great on almost everything. What the hey, nothing to lose if you are/might replace it anyway.
Steve and Michelle,
It may seem that you did not have a check valve on your coach. On my 2002 320 the check valve (on the floor of the manibloc compartment) failed from freezing weather whereby it was blocking attempts to fill the tank. Or if the check valve is stuck open, then water can shoot back out the fill hose. This problem was corrected by removing the check valve and re-positioning the internal plastic shuttle and spring to be in the correct positions again. When apart it was easy to understand how it was malfunctioning.
Jim