Greetings to the forum!
I'm interested in the forum's advice and opinions! I'm in my mid 30s and considering the purchase of 1986-1993 GV. My wife, son, and I would only use it for probably 6-8 weeks per year total. We have been pop up campers and tag along campers, but prefer the comfort and class of a Class A. What are your thoughts on whether a used 1986-1993 GV would be a good first coach for 3-5 years to get a taste of the lifestyle? Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful considerations and advice! I'd also be interested in hearing from people with an affordable GV available for sale.
Best regards,
JWH
I have a 1994 U300 Grand Villa and we love it. ;D The Grand Villa's are rock solid and for me easy to work on. No slides but if you can get into a 102" wide unit you will have some additional isle space that makes a world of difference. These GV's were made up to the 1995 model year. I do not think you can go wrong with any used Foretravel if it has been maintained. ;)
After several years of shopping and researching I bought my first motorhome in 2008 - a 1995 U300 Unihome. Best decision that I possibly could have made ! Still running like a Swiss watch. Try to have someone that's knowledgable about Foretravels look it over before you get the checkbook out.
Unless you get lucky like we did with our '89 GV I would, even with a well maintained coach, plan on spending some money for your peace of mind. I always, when I purchased an older vehicle such as you are contemplating, would change out the fluids, filters, spark plugs and wires, check the brakes, replace shocks if uncertain of condition, replace windshield wipers, verify date of manufacture and condition of the tires, have a front end alignment done, and thenclean and degrease the engine if necessary. All this to establish a beginning date as far as scheduled maintenance is concerned. Granted, diesel engines do not have spark plugs, but you get the idea.
As far as being an older coach, Foretravel Grand Villas that have been cared for are like a good wine--they only get better with age!!
First welcome to the forum, a priceless value to your future purchase. Without the forum, I might not have risked purchasing a classic 18 year old coach. Having the factory in east TX, and two service companies in that town are also a comfort for future needs.
I live near you, in Pantego. We looked for years and were very happy to find a 1993 U-225, with all the design details we wanted. The seller had done a lot to the coach in the 3 years he had owned it, that made a huge difference in what we might have to do in the future. The original owners had also taken care of the unit and it shows, along with the 2nd owners continued care and upgrading done by Kent Spears.
We have had trailers and boats, it is still a big step up to the systems that the Grand Villa has, and with the 3, 3 ring binders of info, we hope to be able to keep up with the future service. As you will find the quality of the Foretravel is higher than many other brands. We are happy with our purchase after 3 months and many nights of use.
There are several Foretravel owners in the local area to help and guide you, good luck.
Difficult to beat a Foretravel GV for the money and what the coach is. We recently purchased a 95 U240. It had some issues that I knew about. Had a couple I discovered. Working thru those now. Try to find one that hasn't lived outside all it's life or the graphics will have to be replaced. Most Foretravels were well maintained. If this is your first coach spend the money to have someone with knowledge to do a buyer inspection for you. That will reduce your exposure, but not eliminate it.
Good luck.
I bought the predecessor to the Villa in January, a Foretravel FTX diesel pusher, knowing absolutely nothing about Class A's although I am a long time truck mechanic. This thing is so old that it attracts a crowd at stop lights!
I would do it again. In spite of the problems I have had with no available documents (you could count the number of these made on one hand) and problems you would expect from a thirty year old machine, this thing is quality built from top to bottom.
Some have had trouble with the Detroit 8.2 fuel pincher, get one with the CAT 3208 if you can find it and good luck!
The GV in the age mentioned could be an excellent choice to start with.... Mine is a 89 and doesn't get as much use as I would like and it may be the last coach I buy....... If it is, i'm good with it. A lot of coach for the money.
Have never regretted the purchase of our U300. GREAT interior layout, cabinet work, craftsmanship. It feels good each time I step into it, smells good too. The taller models have lots of storage for longer trips but the others are lighter and use a little less fuel. The 8.2 4 cycle Detroit has some issues but quite a few owners have gotten good life out of them. The other Detroits, CATs and Cummins are first rate. Love my 6V-92TA but reading above, you can see others have their favorites. :-(
There are other brands that are pretty good and would be fun for the family on road trips. On the other hand, there are a lot out there that are just plain terrible. Poorly designed, built, etc.
A really depressed market for older RVs (not too much better for late model either) so you have to do your research on engines, models, problems and then with a little work, you can find the perfect "home for the road". Don't expect to be able to get a loan on these older coaches. Cash is king in the market today. Not than many Foretravels for sale so be prepared to ask for high resolution photos, history, etc. and after that, you may have to fly to the other end of the country to get one. I did.
By far the best search engine for Foretravels (or any other brand) is : RV Site Mash of Craigslist, eBay & More (http://rv.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/mash.cgi?cat=rvs&fil=&itm=foretravel&state=&ps=&pe=&ys=&ye=&so=d&submit=+GO)+ All set up for you with Foretravel selected, just click on above address and scroll down to view all the listings.
Good luck and don't be afraid to ask questions on the forum.
JWH
You will certainly get some biased answers from this group as we all think Foretravels are the best MH for the money on the market. For only 6 - 8 weeks use per year, you would be money ahead just to rent. I don't know of any Foretravels for rent though. Some things you might like to consider: diesel engines last a long time with proper maintenance, but they do require more of it. Maybe that is why they last longer. Instead of 4 qts of oil it is 4 gal, and likewise for antifreeze, transmission fluid, etc. Foretravel's construction is better or equal to any other manufacturer. How well the owners looked after the coach matters though, it is possible to find one with rust problems in the framing, and other defects. Set aside about $5 to 10K for unexpected expenses, like batteries, tires, refrigerator, TV, water pump, AC units, etc. It's not a new coach. Some of us just buy these things so we have something to work on. It will require a larger space to park and one more level than for a pop up camper. A few national parks may not have large enough campsites, but most will. State parks are better equipped and usually have larger sites than national parks. Foretravels dry camp very well because of the large tanks, batteries, etc. I have rented 7 or 8 times, and each one needed one or more repairs during the trip. I owned another brand which needed a repair on almost every trip. Knock on wood, no repairs yet in 15k miles with the FT, but I have done a lot of work when not on a trip. Best if you are the type of person that can do some of the maintenance.
We recently purchased our first Class "A" but took a while looking. Take your time and don't fall in love with the first one you see. As your profile locates you in Texas you are in Foretravel country so you are in the right place. There are many resources (factory and dealers) there. Have someone knowledgeable inspect your purchase and you should be OK. I purchased mine from a fellow forum member and drove 1,000 miles home with no trouble at all.
Foretravels are very well built and are more expensive than many other makes. But, as a Mercedes spokesman said "Mercedes are expensive to repair but you don't have to fix them very often". Same for a well maintained Foretravel. It will be going long after many others have bit the dust.
Keep looking at this excellent forum as there are some real experts on many aspects of Foretravels here. Also look at Barry Beam's site for everything Foretravel:
FORETRAVEL Motorhomes service and Repair Information (http://www.beamalarm.com/foretravel-links/foretravel-links.htm)
Good luck and don't be afraid to ask for help.
Keith & Joyce
JW, I was a true novice just three years ago. Hadn't had an RV for 35 years and bought a 93, U225 on a spur of the moment craziness. Best decision I ever made. Dave and Dolly Cobb now own that beauty. Three years later I bought a second 93 Grand Villa, a U300. It had everything I want in a motorhome and was refurbished at the factory in 2009. We are now full timers and I have no plans of upgrading again.
When we decided to get a larger motohome for our full timing adventures, there was no question that I would have to have another Foretravel. Foretravels have the best cabinetry, highest quality accessories, best handling, a superb safety record and most reliable chassis of the non-bus motorhomes. We have had a number of former Foretravel owners stop by our coach and offer that they wished they had never sold their Grand Villas. They typically have a new other brand motorhome one or two years old and will tell you that they liked the Foretravel much better than their new motorome.
As others have mentioned, don't underestimate the cost of wear items when buying a used any brand motorhome. Figure on tires if the ones on the coach are more than 7 years old. Tires will run around $3000. Batteries are a typical item to soon be replaced. Batteries on a U225 or U240 can run from $300 for lead acid up to $1,000 with all Gel cells. Batteries on a U280 or U300 can run from $500 up to $2,500. Just having all of the fluids and belts changed by a dealer can run from $500 for a U225 up to $2,000 for a U280 or U300. If it something you can do yourself, the cost of all fluids and belts can be from $300 up to $800. This recommendation to establish a base line buy changing all of your fluids and belts will be for any motorhome you buy unless the previous owner has very accurate records. Many Foretravel owners do keep exceptional records.
Foretravels aren't necessarily designed to be family motorhomes but they certainly will be OK for that function. However most Foretravels will be an exceptional value, the best handling and safest motorhome you can drive. A friend of mine just paid $10,000 more for a 2004, 32 foot Winnebago Class C than I paid for my refurbished 1993/2009 Foretravels. I guarantee I will be driving this old baby 10 years longer than he will have his 11 year newer Winnebago.
The bottom line is if you going to buy a used motorhome, the Foretravel brand is probably your best choice even if it is 15 years old or more. We will welcome you to the Foretravel family even if you are just a kid.
Alright gang, I need some advice and words of wisdom.
I've been considering and researching this purchase for several years. I've seen many units and a sundry of pricing variations. I have recently located:
1989 Grand Villa VIN# 10T9N9A57K1036686 Detroit 157k which I believe to be road worthy for $10k
1987 Grand Villa VIN# 10T9M9A85H1031279 Cat "broken odometer at 65k (but has under 100k) for under $10k, but needs refrigerator, carpet, rear tires, jack springs, new striping (included).
Is the diesel a mistake for people that are gonna' use it 6-8 weeks total all year :-\ .....those days spread out mostly into one week trip every august to Ft. Davis, TX, weekend trips with family, and the occasional trip to Disney or something .
I also need to do some more learning because I'm not sure I know why the 90s models are more referred to as U225 and U300 and all I see on these units is Grand Villa.
For us, this is a MAJOR purchase and outlay of cash. I don't have to buy either of these units, as I can keep learning and looking. Ideally, I'd love to find a well loved and cared for Grand Villa that some awesome couple is retiring from the road and wants to see their unit go to a new FT enthusiast. Does this ever happen??? lol. Do wait until I can afford a little newer unit?
Looking forward to all of your responses! Posting and "listening" to your experiences and wisdom has been priceless!
Truly, thank you for your time and thoughtful consideration! It makes me wanna' join the FT Family even more!
Best,
JWH
I'm reading Mr. Beam's history and FT, the Grand Villa, and the Unihome. Remember reading it a year or so ago....a wealth of information and the history teacher in me really appreciates it!
JW, I am certainly no expert on Foretravel history compared to several others on the Forum. But as a novice I thought my perspective might be of value to you. The following is my understanding of the primary differences in the years and models.
There are only a few major differences in the Foretravel Grand Villa Chassis. The specific history is on the Barry Beam site. From my perspective the 1980's Grand Villa early models were on a frame type traditional chassis with either a gas front engine or a diesel rear engine. I think there may even have been a rear engine gas at one time. The older Grand Villas had springs for suspension and road more like other motor homes. Somewhere in the 80's Foretravel introduced the air bag suspension system on their higher end models and the Torsilastic suspension system in their base line models. In my opinion, the suspension is a major difference and one of the most distinctive features of the modern Foretravels.
When you see ORED or Oshkosh it means a traditional frame chassis with spring type suspension. The U225 and U240's have a custom built stressed chassis with Torsilastic suspension and the U280 and the U300 have the custom chassis with the 8 air bag suspension. I think there were some models in the 80's that had air bags in the rear only.
The best and most stable ride is the 8 air bag suspension by quite a margin. The Trosilastic suspension rides good but doesn't handle the wind or take bumps quite as well as air bags. It also handles great. It corners more like a car or pickup truck than a big motor home. It is my understanding that the conventional chassis is more difficult to drive in cross winds and will lean more in corners or interstate exits than the other two. I have had Foretravels with both the Torsilastic and the air bag system but I have never driven one with the ORED chassis so my opinions on the ORED a here say. I'm sure there are others that have drive all three that can comment on their experiences.
Regarding gas vs. diesel, in today's world gas is substantially cheaper than diesel fuel and the MPG's would be similar. It would be easier to find mechanics to work on a gas engine and much less expensive to replace major components should they fail. My opinion is that you could replace a Dodge 440 engine for considerably less than any major repair on a diesel. Routine maintenance like belts and lubricants would be about 1/4 of the cost of a diesel. However a rear engine diesel should certainly be much quieter while driving and stronger pulling hills and for some reason just more fun to drive. I really enjoy driving my diesel. Overall, for economy I would pick gas but for enjoyment of the entire experience I would pick diesel.
The cost of a new refrigerator would be $1200 up, a roof air conditioner $700 and up, a used generator $2000 and up, dash air $1000 and up and new decals or paint $2700 and up. You can readily see the older the unit the more likely the need to replace these major components that will take you right back up to the cost of a newer, well maintained coach. Take you time. Watch the internet and the Forum. The right deal will come along.
I moved up to a 1994 Foretravel U225 from a 1994 Tiffin Allegro. That would not sound like moving up at all to someone who does not know the quality of the Foretravel. It was like moving into a mansion. Not size wise, but construction and quality wise. And also in the area of handling while downing down the highway. It was like moving up from a Pinto into a Lincoln with special BMW handling features.
Oh, like any vintage motorcoach, there will be maintenance issues like the old converter/charger that will kill your house batteries. But you can fix that stuff. And you will find that it is often best to do it yourself, so that you can learn the workings of you coach. Personally, I would stay in the Grand Villa Unihome vintage where your have the Foretravel monocoque chassis design (1991 to 1995 U225, U240, U280, and U300), and no slides. Probably one of the safest constructed motorcoaches on the highway!
Oh, there will be the moments of lack of privacy, when someone come knocking on the front door. They have always wanted to see a Foretravel - Can they get a tour? I live in a small town in the country and have had them stop and want to see it. Had to move it back further from the road where it is not so visible when they drive by! It is amazing the people who know what a older Foretravel is, but have never seen one except in passing!!! And then there are the people who have no idea at all about a Foretravel, but want to talk to you about your motorhome because it is so different and nice looking. And then there are the repair shops who say back, a "Fordtravel, whats that"?
JW,
Welcome to ForeForums!
Kent makes a great point; sometimes a "fixer" isn't always the best deal. But unless neglected, a Foretravel will always have better "bones" than SOB, even a newer SOB.
I think it can happen that you find a well-loved FT in your price comfort zone. It will take patience and research. There's a '93 currently in the classifieds that, if still available (was as of April), may be worth a look. It's above the prices of the 2 units you mention, but knowing James Holder is familiar with the coach there will be more knowledge/history than some.
Telling us what you're looking for also helps; now if any of us hear about a coach, we can let you know.
Michelle
JW. My experience with FT is that you wait and keep looking. My first one 6 yrs ago was a 93 GV ORED with Cummins and I came to buy it just the day after it appeared on the internet on RVONLINE.com . I had already been looking at one online at PPLMOTORHOMES.COM in Houston (I live in BC Canada) and had a plane ticket to go see it 3 days later. Next day as I always did I checked the RV site again and lo and behold an identical one had just been entered BUT at almost 1/2 the price as the other!!! I called the seller and asked all the questions about it but he could not help as it was his Dads and he had passed away and the kids were selling his MH and Cessna and toys. It sounded good so told him we would be there the next day (Seattle) It was perfect but with a couple of minor issues so a deal was struck and I enjoyed it for 4 yrs and sold it for 6k less than I paid 4 yrs earlier. I learned a lot with that one and decided never to stray from FT.
My next one also was on RVONLINE and down in Costa Mesa. It had been on the market for a long time and I could not understand why as the price was excellent (seller was in a financial bind) so flew to see that one. I came home and dealt with it by e-mail and again it was to be mine. Another member of this board had considered it too I find out! The seller had been almost tricked a few times by others in the scam business but as I flew down to see it he knew I was serious and wanted to do business. I have now realised what a buy I got at my price We have done a few changes and a few good trips and this is a keeper (till another good buy comes along!).
The motto is I believe keep looking at all options and be prepared to strike as soon as you see the one for you. I even paid for it with a chq 10 days before I flew down to pick it up and it was still in his name, but that was because of the trust between us and I did not want him to sell it to anyone else before I got back to him.
It was 2 yrs of looking online before I bought my first one.
John
I have to say that for 6 to 8 weeks of use each year, a motorhome is not economical due to engine, tires seals that dry up, etc,...but what is? You just need to be prepared for the repair costs associated with maintaining a diesel coach that sits most of the time (like mine, and trust me I know what I'm talking about!). Jerry W. is very right, you need to set aide a budget of $2,000 to $10,000 a year for incidental repairs to major items as mentioned in his great post.
Also, you need to be familiar (knowledgeable preferred) in diesel pusher chassis maintenance of the age coaches you appear to be interested in. Remember that Foretravels are built on a custom chassis, ORED's excepted. But, ORED's may be getting harder to maintain due to obsolescence of certain parts. Again, this translates to more cost, not that it cannot be maintained.
If you are prepared for the responsibility and expense of owning a Foretravel, go for it. It is the best custom built coach in America (for the money).
I would second the cost of owning an older RV. You can buy a '93 Mercedes S320 for approximately 4% of the new cost. This is a very complex vehicle that will require constant attention to little items, items that if taken to the dealer will be very expensive indeed. The older RV is exactly the same. In the case of a Foretravel, you have a very complex air leveling system plus a lot of other complicated items (that are constantly aging) shared with all other upscale motorhomes. If you can take the time to read the forum posts and do a lot of the maintenance yourself, an older Foretravel can be a great motorhome. On the other hand, with just a few trips a year, renting a class A might be less expensive both in time and $$. You don't want to get into the situation like a helicopter where you spend 4 hours of maintenance for every hour in the air. A Foretravel (or any other) RV kept at a storage facility and only visited for occasional trips will end up more trouble than it's worth.
JW, I certainly agree with all of the cautions about the cost of operating an older motorhome given in the foregoing. You need to go into this with your eyes wide open. Renting probably is the most economical but the one thing RV rental can't provide is having your stuff already loaded and ready to go at a moments notice and the comfort of having your own home away from home.
If you can fit buying and the upkeep of a vintage Foretravel into your budget, it is well worth the time and expense.
Ditto what everyone is saying. I've put about $10000 in mine in just over two years, 90% of it absolutely necessary. However, in those two years I think the price for obtaining one has gone down a good bit. If you can find one in the 10000 range and plan on putting 10000 in it, you will have a nice MH. I wouldn't even consider SOB for an older unit. I lucked into mine because cosmetically it was so well cared for and I didn't know a Foretravel from Adam. There are very few brands nearing 20 years of age that anyone should consider updating and operating. Even thought I think the fluids, hoses and filters were changed regularly on mine...there was no real updating of systems. I have repaired several things from the fan pump to suspension issues (which still isn't actually repaired properly), shocks, tires, AC units, air system plus plus plus. Eyes wide open is good advice.
Just as a point of perspective, the former owner of my 1993 put right at $50,000 in this coach updating virtually everything. I'm not sure that was the best investment if you looking for return but these old Foretravels fixed up are as good as or better than 95% of the 5 year old coaches on the road, maybe better.
You have ad. Few say 6 to 8 weeks is not enough time. I will differ. I still work and when I started out I thought the same thing. Funny, I started taking the coach to work on Fridays and leaving from there every other weekend. I would use it to go visit the kids in NC. I would take it to NY parents an hour or so away and stay overnight instead of driving hoe at midnight.
You will find it is a lifestyle.
I would look at the later end of your range. All the major alliances will still be reaching the end of their useful life and the hoses FT used are 20 yr lives. So you are going to have some work to do. Just take them one at a time and you will find soccer games now have a home base and those multi day ones are even fun. I use mine to go and get to the location I want to take pictures in. I at sit there for a couple hours waiting for the right light. Find one that fits, I would look for a wide body though.
I think John S hit the nail square on the head. You are thinking vacation use. You will be surprised the trips you use it for. Take it to the lake or state park nearby for the weekend. Down to the coast from where you live for a weekend. We spotted our first RV about an hour from Fort Worth. We would drive our car to it for the weekend.
I have lifetime free travel on American Airlines. How do I travel? In our RV. We can take our Border Collies. When we arrive we have everything we need.
BTW. A excellent park is Via Bayou on Dickerson Bay three miles South of Kemah. All the spots are on the water. Fresh shrimp and crab off the boats around 1400 hrs, 1/4 mile away. Plenty to see and lots of restaurants in Kemah. We will be there in February 2012.
After we bought the FT, we converted the last "guest room" to the "sewing/quilting" room. Folk can sleep in there, but they will be on the floor. Their other choice is in the FT 20' from the back door. The FT usually stays about 100' from the house. We move it closer for guests or to load/unload for trips.
Daughter visited and stayed in the coach. She thought it was great. Weather was pleasant and she could leave the windows open if she chose to. She could sleep, read, etc., in private or join us in the house.
Son, daughter-in-law, and two grandchildren visited. Wife and I stayed in the coach with the grandchildren. Gave the master bedroom to son and daughter-in-law. Everybody was happy.
I took the coach to park near a client site last week in order to eliminate a 140 mile/day commute.
When we travel, the 65# dog goes with us. We sleep in our own bed with our own sheets. We eat healthy, fresh food a couple times a day. We bake two fresh cookies to indulge ourselves in the evening.
It's expensive, but it may be worth it.
Best wishes for a successful choice.
John hits it on the head. It does become a lifestyle. Some of the appliances will need replacing, some sooner, some later. Fridge is usually the first to go so figure $1K there plus a possible air or two. With kids and a dog, the extra width is noticeable when others are trying to go the opposite direction at the same time. 36' vs 40' is also a choice. Lots to be said for either size.
Yes to the change in your life style.
We too have used the coach for work, last month I had two out of town roofs to install. The round trip each day would have been 3 hours. Instead, we took the coach, and enjoyed not driving back and forth for the week.
It is also just too hot here in Ft. Worth to enjoy camping out, even at the lake, when the house is 78, and the pool is warm, clean and shaded.
But yesterday we did an early run to our covered coach storage space. We got some chores done. I installed a muddapper cover on the waterheater after digging out the old mud, and using the vacuum hose stuck out the galley window. Then covered the furnace inlet covers, that did not have any telltale balls of dropped mud yet.
And then for fun, we went for a drive. Found propane to top the tank. Stopped by Bill Chaplin's coach storage for a visit. We went and got the coach weighed, and picked up lunch to go. With the generator on, the coach was nice and cool. A nice 5 hours coach day, nice visit with friends, some drive time, hopefully good for the systems and really great for us.
We too have used the coach for the guest house, and we have loved visiting friends, just parking in their driveways when traveling. Some things just really can't be measured with just dollars spent.
And when you have a coach, you can find lots of reasons to use it, and places that just need to be visited.
We have had motorcycles for the last 13 years, and they "caused" us to look for places to go, and trips to be planned. I really doubt we might have done the many miles and states without buying those bikes. Now the coach will be the excuse we need to travel more.