Got up this morning and my relatively new house batteries are dead. Start battery is fine although turning the start key results in silence instead of starting. Checked at the battery and showing 7.79v for the house and 12.56v for the starting. I'm connected to shore power and all the 120v works.
I pulled the cover on the tranfer switch and exercised it by disconnecting and reconnecting the shore power. Looks like it is functioning correctly and voltage at batteries did not change. Hummm... Will battery voltage change if charging or will it show the current voltage of the batteries?
I suspect the Converter/Charger (Parallax Power Componets 775). When I check the voltage on the red & black I show 12.56v. Shouldn't that be 13 or 14v to charge?
I checked all of the weird 12v fuses in the bay and didn't find any tripped.
I'm pretty much lost as to what to check next. Any help appreciated!
I'm including 3 pics. 1st is the battery bay. 2nd is the voltage off the house battery. 3rd is voltage off the Parrallax (red & black wire). Also in the 3rd pic there is what looks like a solenoid (silver film can looking thing) I get 12.56v of the left side and 7.79v off the right side. FWIW...
From reading the other posts this morning it looks like the electron gremlins where out last night!
see ya
ken
Ken,
Let's start with what it is NOT. Since other appliances such as roof A/C worked, the ATS and 120 VAC to the breaker panel are just fine.
A reading of 12.5 VDC at the converter IS a problem. Start by verifying that you have 120 VAC to the outlet into which the converter is plugged. If you have power there, but converter output is 12.5, time to troubleshoot the converter or replace it.
Brett
Brett, isn't it possible that a bad battery or batteries could be drawing down the voltage?
Ken, I would start by disconnecting both the house and starting batteries. Check the voltage of the inverter/charger without any batteries pulling it down. Then check each battery bank while disconnected from the system and note the voltages. You may also want to disconnect each battery and check the individual battery voltage and post the results on the forum. There are a number of smart folks that can analyze what to check next from that information.
I think the film can thing is the boost switch.
I am having some confusing voltage issues myself. As soon as I get a chance I am going to disconnect all of the batteries, the boost switch, the inverter/charger and the isolater one item at a time to see what is connected to what. My intent is diagram the system and record the voltage at each contact point. The goal is to determine why the starting and the house batteries are being charged together even when the boost switch is not on and to find out why I seem to have low voltage under the dash affecting the accuracy of the gauges.
Before you do a lot of work check each coach battery by it's self. one shorted cell is all it takes!
How old are the coach batteries?
Kent:
I assume that the voltage for the dash is supplied by the engine batteries.
See if you can locate the feed line from the engine batteries to the dash and see what size wire is used. Then check the voltage at the beginning of the wire and at the end to determine the voltage drop. I would then check it with various power items turned on, such as A/C, Heater, Headlights, etc... The source wire is most likely over 50' long and probably has a BIG voltage drop.
Regarding the Boost switch, you may find that the solenoid is internally welded in the boost position due to a high current at some point. Easy to check, and it does happen.
Regards,
Jon Twork
Don't over look the point that was mentioned, turning the start key was met with silence too, or did I read that wrong ?
#$%@ing internet started working again finally! Chief Hosa campground I love you but your internet sucks! :)
Thanks for the quick replies everyone.
Brett: Voltage at the socket for the converter/charger is at 130v.
Kent: Disconnected all batteries retested voltage from converter/charger still at 12.57v. I remembered I had jumper cables so started the car and hooked up the cables and let it run for about 20 minutes. Then remembered I had my charger at the house. Duh! Ran home got that and hooked it up. It ran about 20 minutes before I was able to get online and read your advise. So the voltages I got are a lot better then the 7.7v I was getting with the batteries combined. Here are the volts from left to right. 11.95v, 12.09v, 12.27v I'm not sure how useful that is at the moment. :)
John: The batteries where replaced at FOT in early June.
Jon: The boost switch was replaced at FOT in early June also. Not to say it couldn't have failed since then. I'll test once I have the batteries charged.
For the moment I'm charging batteries individually to make sure they take and hold a charge. I'm not sure what my next step will be. I'm taking the coach in to the shop for some engine work tomorrow and my main concern is that I can get it started. Charging the batteries with my charger should take care of that.
Right now I think the evidence is pointing to the converter/charger. What do you guys think? If so do you have any recommendations for a new one? Camping World has the Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power and CW is just down the hill from me. Anyone have any experience with it? Pros/Cons?
Any other advice still welcome! Thanks for all the replies.
see ya
ken
Dave: Thanks for bringing that up. That doesn't make sense to my feble brain. Even with the house batteries completely dead the start battery had 12v so the engine should at least turn over! Would a stuck boost cause this? But if I had a stuck boost I would think the start battery would have drained with the house batteries. Any thoughts??
Once I have the batteries charged and everything put back together I'll try and start. Here's hoping that works!
see ya
ken
Absolutely, but the first symptom of a converter charging a battery with a bad cell is severe overcharging of the remaining good cells as the converter is trying to charge a 10 VDC battery at the same voltage as if it were a 12 VDC battery. And 13.5 VDC into a 10 VDC battery produces severe outgassing and overheating of the battery. If the batteries are not hot, swollen or outgassing, I would start by looking at why the converter is not putting out properly.
Brett
Ken,
Over the years I've read good stuff about Magnum invertor/converters. But I'm way out of my comfort zone here.
What type of new house batteries were installed? Gel batteries require a 'smart' charger that can control voltages. Coaches like yours have converters that cannot safely charge gel batteries.
Berry: I asked about gels' but was told we would have to change out other equipment blah, blah, blah so we just went with the cheap ass wet cells that FOT had. Deka 708D's
Suspect wet cell batteries destroyed by old converter/charger. I can't believe at this point that any reliable MH repair facility would sell anyone batteries without a charger check and a warning. Been there myself. I was trying to be cautious and charging for 24 hours once a month but I think my one week vacation in a campground allowed the old stupid charger to cook the batteries even with heavy use of the 12v systems. Went to AGM batteries and a PD smart charger with charge wizard. No battery issues since.
Put everything back together and it started right up!
When I reconnected the batteries I started with the start battery. When I did I heard the propane alarm go off and when I went into the coach the fridge was back on. Are these normally run off the start battery? Would make some sense since you want the alarm to be powered even if the house batteries die. Same for fridge I guess depends on if you value your food more than getting home!
I'm convinced it's the converter/charger that's the issue. I'll be ordering the Inteli-Power 80 Amp Converter/Charger tomorrow. I checked around the internet and found it at Progress Dynamics for $213. CW wants $374 for the same thing!
Dwayne: My next set of batteries will be AGM's. Thanks for the info.
see ya
ken
if you check around, you can get much better prices than Camping Worlds. All reviews say that they do what they are suppose to do, provided you get the smart charge wizard. Their customer service is good. You have to put on a jumper connector to properly charge gel batteries. their customer service will send you instructions.
The propane alarm is powered from both batteries. Whenever I disconnect them both and reconnect either, I get the propane alarm. My alarm also sounded for no reason when the batteries became very low. The propane alarm, though not designed as such, is kind of a low battery warning in many motorhomes I believe.
Make sure you get the little 'Charge Wizard' plug in controller with it.
I have the PD9180 installed in my SOB for several years. It worked so well ( with the Charge Wizard) that I purchase another for my '93 U300
It has done a great job so far (2 years)
Dave, Bill: Thanks for the input!
Ken, I agree it sure sounds like its the converter.
If you order the PD over the internet with a price that much lower than Camping World, make darn sure it has the charge wizard included. Sometimes brands offer the same model with or without the charge wizard. That little difference is the reason for the much lower price.
I chose an Iota DLS90 amp with IQ4 for my 93, U225 from bestconverters.com, but if Bill and Dave chose the PD, I would have full confidence in their recommendation and it less expensive.
Ordered the PD this morning from PD. $213 + $32 for the wizard. PatC pointed me to a dealer on eBay that was a little cheaper but I didn't see it until I had already ordered. :( Oh well it was only a few dollars more...
Doesn't it pay to consider a charger/inverter, like Magnum or Xantrex have to replace a converter? Not hard to run a second Romex cable to automatically power motorhome outlets with the inverter or shore/gen. These are great battery chargers and it seems that this would be a nice upgrade.
Berry: charger/inverter would have been a good option and will consider it down the road. The down side is that it's a bit more money and not as plug and play as just replacing the converter/charger plus I have a perfectly good 1200w inverter already that I rarely use. Maybe when I do the residential fridge upgrade (like you did) it will make more sense for me.
I'm not ready to run out and purchase one of these just yet, but I am curious about inverters and their application in a MH such as mine. I have 2 8D batteries in my GV. One is engine, one is house. Does an inverter even make sense when you only have one 8D house battery to power the entire 120V system? I would think the use case would be severely limited with this type of set up?
Benji, I am running a 3000 watt inverter/charger with two 8D batteries with no problems. I can run the satellite and two tv's, use the coffee pot in the morning and the microwave for short periods without recharging the batteries. 3000 watts is overkill for what I need but it was there when I bought the coach. A 1200 or 1500 watt inverter would be perfect for coffee and a warm bagel in the morning in the Walmart parking lot and one 8D used judiciously should be fine. A second 8D would be even better if you have the room for it.
In my 93, U225 I used to carry one 8D as a primary house battery and one 4D as a backup (used and charged individually)along with my two starting batteries in the battery compartment. I never did run the 8D down so much that I needed to use the 4D backup.
Ken, thanks for the feedback! I may have to look into where I could possibly add a third 8D. My battery compartment is in the steps on my GV and no room there.
I need to do more research on inverters, but do most have a low voltage battery sense to where they'll shut down at some low voltage battery watermark before completely exhausting the battery bank?
I don't know about others but mine does and my little plug-in 140 watt inverters I used on the U225 even alerted me when voltage dropped below 12.2 volts so I'm betting most inverters do alert you. Do a search on the forum for inverters. There have been many threads in the past.
I'm considering an upgrade to my old converter in the future and figure it may pay in the long run to install a Magnum or Xantrex charger/inverter. It's been awhile since I had to read schematics, but it looks like all the converter is doing is charging the house battery and all DC functions on the coach are powered by the house battery? That correct? Not sure if I'm just getting caught up in the semantics of converter vs. charger?
Second question, it was my understanding that the alternator charges both the engine and house batteries when the engine is on. However, I'm not sure I see any circuit connecting the house battery to the alternator UNLESS the main disconnect is turned to on. Makes sense, but I just want to make sure that's correct? When the main disconnect is off, my front monitor shows the house battery voltage fluctuating with engine RPM so my assumption was that it was charging off the alternator, but in looking at the schematic, I don't think that can happen unless the main disconnect is on. Can someone confirm?
The alternator is connected to the center post of an isolator. One side post is connected to house battery and the other side post is connected to the start battery. Isolator is rectangular, with cooling fins and has three bolt cable connectors. Often found on engine side of firewall just inside side engine access door, near shore power connector.
I believe Barry means the alternator output is connected the center post of the ISOLATOR as he goes on to describe.
Brett
I understand what the alternator and isolator do, however the main disconnect stands between the isolator and house battery. At least that's how I read it. I'll post the schematic when I get access on my PC, maybe I'm missing something.
I believe you could say that is connected to both the battery and the coach DC circuit, because it does not go through the battery to get to the coach circuits, but it supplies both the battery and the coach circuits.
As Barry and Brett both said, it is handled by the isolator. The isolator is kind of like a switching system which handled supply and demand automatically.
Now the catcher!!! The converter/charger does not charge the chassis (engine) batteries. Many of us have solved that by using a trickle charger or a Trik-L-Start ( Ultra TRIK-L-START Starting Battery Charger/Maintainer (http://www.lslproducts.com/TLSPage.html). A trickle charger would charge the batteries and the Trik-L-Start "steals" power from the coach batteries to continously charge the chassis batteries. Some will turn on the Boost switch the night before to charge up the chassis batteries, but I am not convinced that one should leave it on all the time to charge other.
OK, here is a pic of my schematic. I see where the connections out of the isolator hit the positive terminals of the engine and coach battery, but it looks to me like the connection to the house battery goes through the main disconnect. Does anyone see this differently? If not, then either my house battery is not being charged off the isolator unless the main disconnect is on OR the schematic is wrong.
Yes, as I read the schematic your house battery will not be charged by the alternator unless the main disconnect is on. Normally you would have no reason to turn the main disconnect switch off when the engine is running so that should not be an issue. When you have the generator running or are plugged into shore power the house battery will be charged by the charger regardless of the position of the main disconnect.
Installed the Progressive Dynamics Inteli-Power 9280 today. So far works as advertised. :)
The 9280 has 3 charge modes which the Inteli-Power selects depending on the voltage it sees from the batteries.
Once the batteries are charged it settles into the 13.2V storage mode. I'm wondering if I should just turn the dash boost switch on whenever I'm connected to shore power. Since after the first day the Inteli-Power should be in 13.2V storage mode which should be about perfect to keep them topped up without boiling them. (they're wet-cells)
Good idea or no?
See ya
ken
Thanks Brett, I removed my old inverter and installed a new isolator.
(in my posting that is)
Barry
8D and 4D batteries refer to what? I have no idea what mine are, but I have three batteries for the engine and three for the house, and I was told that they are sealed. The engine batteries are something that they called "gold top". Hmmm. The house batteries are large black batteries, I think Continental was written on them. ....too much to learn! Sure hope my charger/inverter thingee has this all sorted out.
Size: 8D is the largest footprint of what is normally used in the industry. lots of good data below
Deep Cycle Battery FAQ (http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Battery%20Size%20Codes)
Hi Benji,
I had the same setup as you, but had space for a third battery, so installed 2 new DEKA 8D gels for coach power. If you have the space, it's worthwhile adding the additional battery.
A 2000W Magnum pure sine wave inverter with remote and gen start module will run around $2K, less installation and other supporting hardware - including a second panel with breakers for inverter-generated AC. That's what I'm planning at the moment. The converter breaker will be shut off and taped off, to be used in emergencies only.
Steve
Steve,
Where were your batteries located? Mine are under my stairwell. I haven't looked extensively, but I don't remember seeing any additional room under there. I'll take a harder look next time I open it up. If there's not room, I may try and fab something attached to the frame, behind the stairs for an extra battery or two.