Hello Everybody,
Yesterday I was having a nice talk with a professional bus driver as I was asking him whether it was better to have a coach equipped with IFS when one has to drive on the mountains.
As a consequence of that, I was told that many manufacturers do their own technical choice, for exemple Mercedes Trucks does not have IFS installed on their trucks but they compensate this loss with stronger shock absobers, others prefer to have IFS in any case because this way any coach rides better or said differently it does not sway right and left at any bendy roads.
Said that, it happened that I read on the forum about sceptic people with regards to have IFS on their coach because it may cause important problems.
As I am still looking for 2002/2003 Unicoach models the questions are:
1) Is that because FT is not technically specialized with IFS or their chassis are not well designed for that (I do not mean to offend anybody);
2) Could anyone tell me if Koni/Bilstein schock absorbers installed on U320s/U295s can be calibrate as to prevent the coach from swinging right and left when driving on bendy roads, or there is not comparison with IFS installed in?
Thank you very much for any feedback.
Steve
The designation in the model # will indicate. U320I
A total of 26 coaches with IFS were built, 3 in 2000 & 23 in 2001.
A few older posts on the subject might help.
Foretravel Buddy Rally - New Wrinkle with IFS (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=4480.msg17916#msg17916)
Foretravel and IFS (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=3542.msg13082#msg13082)
2001 IFS (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=11597.msg58458#msg58458)
Independent front suspension - IFS (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=128.msg12887#msg12887)
Independent Front Suspension (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=8428.msg36969#msg36969)
slide toppers (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=5440.msg22448#msg22448)
independent front suspension (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=1086.msg3390#msg3390)
Owning a Foretravel in Europe? (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=11105.msg53882#msg53882)
Degree of Wheel Cut? - U225 or U240 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=12086.msg62377#msg62377)
Always thought our Foretravel did really well on mountain roads. You are probably speaking of that old radial tire deflection feeling. So, pump up the tires to max specs and if that does not do it for you, replace them with stiffer sidewall radials.
I spend several seasons bumping heads with the likes of Ron Hornaday's dad (also Ron) on tracks in Southern California as well as 50K/yr on the Autobahn so have a good idea what a good handling vehicle feels like and a Foretravel IS an EXCELLENT handling RV. Try some of the others.
I agree. Drive a 2003 Country Coach and see the difference. I did. It has an IFS. In fact the CC was the first coach I drove which probably amplified the "spoon in mush" feeling I got while driving. I really like the solid front axle on our FT. Very solid feel and we drive quite a few mountain roads. I have never needed the tighter turning radius that the IFS offers. That is the main advantage....right?
Ask your professional bus driver to take your Foretravel for a spin.......
Ok, so if I well understand FT has a specific tradition in tems of handling with solid frot axle and this is at least one of the main reasons why one should take the chance to buy a FT rather than other coaches such as Country Coach. And this feeling has no price compared only to a better turning radius.
May I ask if there is a big difference between U320 and U295 as the first are all equipped with Koni shock absorbers while seconds with Bilsteins?
I do not know the expression "spoon in mush".
Steve
Steve,
If I may make a suggestion, shocks are readily replaceable/upgradeable. Many of us have gone to the Koni FSD (easy to spot on a coach - they're gold, not orange like the original Koni adjustables). When we did this to our '03, we noticed much less body roll around corners than with the original Koni's (not that the original was a bad ride).
Michelle
Steve,
Like a lot of things, IFS vs. solid axle is a tradeoff. Because IFS has less un-sprung mass it will translate fewer bumps in the road and it has a sharper turning radius (but I don't understand why a solid axle can't be made to turn sharper - maybe because of the truck legacy where they just don't care as much). It's down sides are cost, more service cost due to more parts and rubber bushing, and it's more fragile. Another down side is (and this is particularly true when compared to Foretravels solid axle suspensions) is roll: because there is only one air springs and it's inboard, they have to add a huge anti-sway bar to IFS suspensions. When you talk about mountain road driving I assume it's roll you are concerned about. I believe the Foretravel solid axle suspension does particularly well in this regard due to the double outboard air springs. It's also very robust. Other than alignments, I almost never hear of someone having a problem with their suspension - even after unintentional off-the-road incidents. The down side to that robustness is it does have a high un-sprung mass which shows up particularly when going over railroad tracks. As for serviceability, the solid axle wins by a landslide: other than the disk brakes, every thing is common with trucks. For IFS, there are a lot of varieties and new design changes - this makes finding parts for a 10 year old system difficult sometimes - but certainly not always. Alignments can be more difficult because techs don't see an IFS that often, do know exactly how to do it and they sometimes need special shims. I formed this opinion when I spent a short stint as a chassis engineer at CC before they went under in '09. There coaches do ride well but I also heard service related issues - everything is a trade-off. I prefer a Foretravel solid axle just for the serviceability - there's already enough stuff to worry about on a motorhome - the FT suspension is one less thing. Just my opinion - buy what you think will make you happy!
John,
You covered just about all the arguments. Very well done! Can you imagine the cost of all the bushings, etc. for maintenance on an older IFS motorhome? Plus an out of alignment IFS front end eats tires fast than a mouse eats cheese. Big swaybars also stiffen up the ride over pot holes where both sides don't go up and down together.
When you look under our rigs, the suspension IS simple and robust. Like you say, very easy to maintain and hard to damage. Love the outboard air bags.
Ours handles very well on the mountain roads plus how fast do you want to go around turns with all the groceries, pots and pans, etc. in the cabinets? Save that for the Porsche toad.
John,
Thank you for this illuminating response. Your report is quite objective and balanced and to me it has the sound of the truth.
Once again this proves the skill of passionate, friendly people who make of this a great forum.
Steve
John certainly has given some good thoughts on the different axle setups, for me I also prefer the Foretravel solid axle and the 4 outer airbags and all that goes with it. I can not comment on the older Foretravel IFS system, BUT the new IFS with Active Air is a very quick acting system that responds super quick I am told when in a turn / lean situation, making level turns. I am sure I would not want to pay the tariff for maintenance etc.
Its above my pay grade, so am tickled with the old solid setup ;D
I can't provide an answer about IFS based on experience. However, I do have some experience regarding the shock absorbers and comparisons of experiences on two different coach platforms.
We recently replaced Bilsteins with Koni FSDs on our 1997 U295. I was a bit disappointed that I didn't notice a big difference in "porpoising" (front to rear attitude changes over bumps). I think the new shock absorbers probably help stability, but the change is not big. The originals only had about 72K miles on them and were probably still in pretty good shape. Cost to have them changed at FOT was about $1,700.
Wayne at FOT did align the front end of the coach during the same service event. The change in handling from the alignment was very significant. Prior to alignment, the coach constantly pulled toward the right and it required constant effort to keep the coach in the proper place on the road. After alignment, it tracks very well and is much easier to drive. It is still a big box on wheels with a large areas hanging out beyond the axles. However, handling is predictable and solid.
Our previous coach was a 1997 37' DP of another brand. It was on a Freightliner XC chassis. We put Koni shock absorbers, anti-roll air restricters, and a Safe-T-Plus steering stabilizer on it. The handling and ride of the SOB was improved considerably by the added equipment. The U295, without new shocks and alignment, offered superior performance to the SOB.
My wife and I both drive. We both find that the performance afforded by a high quality, well designed chassis with eight outboard air bags is remarkably better than the performance of a modified truck chassis with four inboard air bags.
Steve, I have never driven a coach with IFS. But I can tell you my 11 year foretravel with all it's original parts still handles and drives better then the last two diesel pushers I have owned. I can still do a 600 mile day and not feel like I rode a horse.
I will second J.D. Stevens opinion of the FSD shocks, although I haven't noticed much porpoising. I replaced all of the Bilsteins with the Koni FSDs and wasn't too impressed with the improvement in ride as compared to the cost. The ride was improved though. A couple of the Bilsteins on the rear definitely needed replacing as they were leaking. Replaced at about 67K miles and 15 yrs age. Purchased on internet for about $150 each or $1200 total and I did the work. Plus I didn't have to drive to the factory. I could have bought Bilsteins for about $100 each. I find it a bit odd that the heavier rear axle carrying more weight than the front axle has the same size shocks. Seems to work ok though.
Bilsteins are gas filled and a certain amount of seepage/leakage may be quite normal. Both Koni and Bilstein make excellent shocks and should provide several hundred thousand miles of service. You should contact Bilstein directly and discuss the extent of the leak. Here is their west coast distributor:
ThyssenKrupp Bilstein of America
14102 Stowe Drive
Poway, CA. 92064
1-858-386-5900
One was leaking enough to be wet, and both didn't provide much resistance to movement by hand. The ones on the front seemed to be in the best condition. I asked on the forum if anyone wanted them and didn't get a response, so they went in the trash. Might have lasted longer with regular use, but they were 15 yrs old.
It is amazing that no one who ever had a Foretravel coach with the I.F.S. has posted anything that I have found on the subject, pro or con.
So it looks like what we have here is uneducated opinions, no facts. While I do like the solid axle design, I am not beyond thinking just maybe there might be a better setup for what ever reason. Handling would be a biggie if it is better, Turning radius is what it is.
I can not see where my choice would be due to one turning 6" smaller circle.
Love to hear from someone that has / had one or the Foretravel models.. Know Foretravel Texas has one on the list, a 01 I think.
FWIW
Dave, I have a 2001 36' U320 with IFS. I have not joined in on this discussion because of my lack of knowledge comparing the solid axle against the IFS. I test drove a solid axle 38' FT at MOT a couple of years ago for just a few miles. That's it. My experience is zero with the solid axle.
However, with the IFS I have driven 9k miles and have no complaints with the steering, handling and alignment. I would have still bought it if it had the solid axle and still be happy.
The difference (on paper) is the IFS has a 54 degrees wheel cut and the solid axle 38 degrees. Two larger shocks on the IFS and four on solid.
FT also added HWH Active Air System to duplicate the ride and handling of a solid front axle thus having the best of both worlds. So says the FT Monthly Newletter-January 2011.
There may be, or have been problem/s with the early IFS (which I have) but I have not had a problem with it, nor did the previous owner to my knowledge.
If any member would like test drive my IFS I would love to swap and test drive their solid axle and actually compare the difference. I live in Orange County, CA. Just send me a message.
Jon, Thanks for the comments on the 01 IFS setup, I would bet Foretravel would not put a hunk of junk together and sell it as an improvement.
Am glad to hear of your experience with it.
My brother just recently took delivery of one with the active air IFS, a 2010 model with the 650 hp, he does love the active air for many reasons including handling etc etc. Appears to be a massive improvement over any prior suspensions.
Many thanks for your input Jon.
Dave,
I have read an article with a definite negative bias against the IFS Foretravels but not driven one to be fair. Engineering, testing and putting a new IFS Foretravel into production would be very costly and in today's economic climate, a really risky undertaking. If last go around was not too successful so what is to say the next would be?
I have a really tight turn part way down my driveway and my U300 does it well. We are always off the main road into campgrounds made for tents or much smaller SUVs. I have never wished for a smaller turning radius. The ride and handling is good. I have a couple of cars with very sophisticated independent front and rear suspensions but don't feel I'm missing anything with my U300. I enjoy driving it to and from my destination and it never fails to please whether at a campground or parked at a big city museum parking lot.
With consumer confidence at a historical low, it is time to "love the one your with". Most everyone is just trying to hang on to what they have. I do look at a real Hummer and think how nice it would be to have that front and rear independent suspension along with the diesel down the middle of Baja but satisfied to just dream.
No suspension is going to do well on California's interstates today. Even a Citroen DS19 might spill your coffee.
Hi Pierce, I have to laugh at a lot at info, sometimes reports are slanted for a political or sales issue, so it might be interesting to know and why the negative report ?
More important, what is so bad about the active air? that required the bad report?
As mentioned, brother took delivery of a 2010 Phenix 45' with the 650 hp, (Still not enough, but plenty) with the Active Air, he loves it, and everything (so far) about it, from the speed that it operates at, to the total stability from wind or passing trucks, handling on turns.
Maybe he will chime in with some comments about his experience with it.
Sure there is some where, someone is still trying to sell the Yugo as the best ever ?
I still like the solid axle. ;D
Dave,
Reread the article and it sounded like an alignment problem rather than design fault. The new 45 footer like your brother's does get a good review. I thought the active air was using the solid axle but have learned something new.
Fore anyone not acquainted with the new 45, a good read at: Foretravel IH-45 (http://www.fmcmagazine.com/motorhome-articles/6740)
Apologizes to IFS owners.
I spoke with James Triana and Dave Robertson 5 or so years back about the '1st Gen' IFS. Dave sold many of these coaches. Greg Amys also spoke about it at the TN Grandvention.
- very few were ordered due to the increased cost (like $15-18K). There are like 12 out there.
- several owners were long time Foretravel owners who complained that the ride 'wasn't the same'.
- There were also complaints about odd front suspension noises and excessive tire wear due to alignment difficulties. - Greg was very specific talking at the Grandvention that chassis changes would maintain the 'Foretravel ride'.
I've spoken with 2 or 3 IFS owners over the years. All were very satisfied with their coaches.
I think there were a few engineering issues, but the main problem was that there was little or no marketing for it. It came about due to owner requests, just like the GV320. In that time, people would come to the Grandvention or call Ray Fore and say 'I want this'. So when 'other builders' were touting their IFS, full body paint and multiple slides, owners wanted the same things.
I will say the factory has been very sensitive to the concept of taking their time, doing it right and marketing that fact. Assuming they can hold on through the next 3-4 years I really believe that Foretravel will maintain the primary position for luxury glass RVs.
I'm waiting to see how the new Prevosts do without a Series 60. They are now shipping with the Volvo D13. Take a peek - google '2012 Liberty #737'. That market is really small with respect to RVs. If Nascar (etc) aren't happy with that package and a bad rep occurs a whole lot of business could come over to Foretravel...
Thought I read something about the original complaints on the 1st generation.
I took a look at the Liberty site. Seems to be a huge disconnect between the outdoors and a customer for this machine. I see an owner of this coach driving out to survey his new dam filling the Grand Canyon in the name of progress. Here it is: Custom Luxury Motor Coaches - Prevost | 2012 Liberty Coach Elegant Lady #737 | (http://www.libertycoach.com/available-coaches/2012-Liberty-Coach-Elegant-Lady-737)
"Elegant"? "Lady"? Just my opinion.
I am guessing you did not sign up for "Interested in learning more about the Liberty Way of Life?" ;)
My traveling partner would like to have the Bosch washer/dryer, but the rest of it is way over the top for us.
No, missed the signup date. Darn!
The fridge is the only invention that beats out the washing machine. Keep looking at that forward closet and thinking how nice it would be to have a really small washer/dryer in there. Within several minutes of getting dress, I am usually filthy so sure would be nice. Could probable still hang stuff above it if it was not too tall.
Too bad they don't yet make a machine that can wash, dry and act as an oven. Would be self cleaning ;-)
Jimmy, do all the u320's have Independent Front Suspension?
Rita and I will be traveling to Nacogdoches next Sunday and will meet with them on Monday. We are looking at a 2004 U320, but they also have a 2006 Phenix that has gotten our attention. It's going to come down to which one speaks to us, vs which one is the best value. Also its more than a week away, we could come across something else that we find interesting.
IFS was NOT available on Foretravel's until just recently. 2002 and 2003 for sure do not have them. FOT did have a couple that they tried in the 200x range but only a very limited number. I would not worry if the one you are looking at does not have IFS.
The ride and handling of a FT without IFS out weighs the IFS on some other brand. Just drive the coach(s) you are interested in.
Dave,
Here's a good "jumping off point" to read about FT and IFS (there are a bunch of threads linked within this one as well) Is IFS a better choice for a good journey? (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=13493.0)
We certainly don't "miss" it in our 2003 and are glad to not have the additional complexity.
Michelle
Steve & Michelle,
Thanks for that link, there is a lot of good info in there.
It is my understanding that a small number of U320s in 2002 had IFS. I think the number was five but I am not sure. I was told by one of the guys at FOT to stay away from the 2002 IFS coaches because they didn't get it quite right and they had quite a few problems with the system. FWIW
I think they were all built in 2000 (3) & 2001 (23) designated with an I after the model number ie: U320I. I dont think there were any in 2002
Barry, I imagine you are correct. My memory is not very specific. The numbers sound correct.
Hi all ; I haven't said anything about the IFS since I needed to get to know this 2010 build # 6527 . If there is something better out there , please let me know about it . This coach rides great , much much better than any of the other Foretravels , 1989-U300 , 2004-320 ,and 2006 Phenix . All had solid axles and I had no complaints ,ever . What I notice most is , A much tighter turning ability . Softer ride . No sway in turns . More stability in cross winds and being passed by speeding trucks etc . The Active Air took some time to get used to . It is very quick . It corrects so fast that at first it startled me some .When you push the auto leveling button , the front drops right now . Levels fairly fast . This coach is the first to have A steering gear box on each front wheel with A very thick/heavy tie rod , which is short in length . This results in , no wiggle in steering . The steering wheel stays where you place it ,the coach does't creep off to the side . I don't know any of the tech numbers to give you some kind of official report , just as I have observed from using and enjoying it .The ISX-650 didn't take any getting used to at all . It has what it takes to make you smile .
Brad -
That hits the two things I think about as drawbacks on my 2000 year U-320 FT - larger turning radius, and a large "center dead spot" in the wheel. IFS is great if you can get into a newer FT - but having driven and owned a few SOB, I will still take the solid axle over another brand with IFS. I have unhooked my toad a time or two when a tighter radius would probably have made the required turn.
What I loved about the Koni FSD's is that somehow they greatly reduced the size of the "center dead spot" in the steering. Not sure how they do it - but noticed it in both the 1999 U-270 and the 2000 U-320 when I changed over.
Koni's FSD's are not about any ride improvement - i think they have a variable valving that makes them respond to little spring rebounds with a harsh, tight valving - not unlike a BMW or other performance suspension, but snse the larger rebounds and have a different valving that preserves a good ride on rough surfaces, but gives a "tighter" sports car feel to the steering of the coach.
If I stay healthy maybe I will upgrade to a 2010 or newer at some time (well) down the road.
FT IFS thread links in one place for the person considering a older FT with IFS. (not applicable to the newer coaches with IFS).