Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Tom Endres on August 26, 2011, 07:12:05 pm
Title: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on August 26, 2011, 07:12:05 pm
Bent push rod in Michigan on I75 out of Ste. Sault Marie and then another bent push rod and bent valve in Rapid City SD. Hope no one has to go through this mess. This was something that gave me no warning and just happened twice at 60mph on level roadway at 2000 miles apart. :( :( :(
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Michelle on August 26, 2011, 07:34:15 pm
Bent push rod in Michigan on I75 out of Ste. Sault Marie and then another bent push rod and bent valve in Rapid City SD.
Wow! Do please keep us posted as you learn what may have caused this. Steve and I are sitting here trying to think of what could have happened - timing, mechanical, electronic, etc.
Michelle
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: wolfe10 on August 26, 2011, 07:50:52 pm
Yes, when the tear into it, please have them check the valve adjustment of the other valves. #1 cause of bent pushrods is such loose valve/rocker arms that they jump out of the rocker arm and jam.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on August 26, 2011, 09:30:06 pm
1st. time this happened, engine only had 57K on the odometer. Intake push rod on # 2 cylinder bent. Bridge on #2 exhaust valves came off ( connects both valves together and is activated by one push rod). Cam shaft pulled and checked, it was okay. All valves readjusted and all push rods checked. $2,600 lighter and on my way down the, sick,but on the road. After about 2K later it happened again. Today #5 cylinder intake push rod found to be bent. The rocker arm on #5 cylinder very sloppy. All valve adjustments very loose. Found #5 valve or valves to be .040 lower than rest, possibly a bent valve. Mechanic presently pulling head, may know more by Monday. There is a bad chance that a valve struck the piston. Sorry, but I'm not a happy camper. :( :( :( :( :( :(
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Dan Stansel on August 26, 2011, 10:23:30 pm
Which engine is this?? 350 or 400 or 325. tks DAN
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on August 26, 2011, 11:15:57 pm
An 02 U295 should be a 400 ISL (like mine....gulp).
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: George Hatfield on August 27, 2011, 12:33:27 am
So what where the symptoms when you had the problems? Engine light come on? Noise? Loss of power? Of all the parts in our motor home I thought this engine was close to being 100% reliable. Another thing to worry about.
Brett... Is there any preventative maintenance that should be done to avoid this problem?
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on August 27, 2011, 02:21:20 am
My first guess would be, For the valves to be loose to point of damage could be from misadjusted valve clearence, if this were a common issue with any Cummins engine I am sure we would have heard more on this subject or I would have seen / heard about it in the Cummins shop.
I sure have no magic, just a guess like the rest, but this is not a normal thing, why even though I have a fair amount of hands on, and have seen results of those that do not. I feel there are many who are wanna be mechanics. This is why I go with the factory shops, not where there is a sign hanging from a post or what ever.
If the first repair was at a Cummins factory Dist shop, and you are at a nother Cummins factory shop, I would be asking for some help, warranty or what ever you want to call it. This is not normal, I am sure they can not explain it as normal wear between MI and SD. Talk to them, make them use english you understand. I feel the first shop just plain screwed up. A Cummins Distrubutor would have warranty for a while on their work, one reason I pay the high price, I expect quality work if I get stuck on the road, I do not go to Joes expert mechanic shop.
When I had my ISM upgraqded to 500 hp, the work was done by an experienced mechanic with Cummins blessing and approval, not a fresh off the street wanna be.
FWIW
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 27, 2011, 02:44:14 am
Bent push rod in Michigan on I75 out of Ste. Sault Marie and then another bent push rod and bent valve in Rapid City SD. Hope no one has to go through this mess. This was something that gave me no warning and just happened twice at 60mph on level roadway at 2000 miles apart. :( :( :(
Understand you must be extremely frustrated to say the least. Not a Cummins guy but will try to do a little detective work.
Has there been any unusual maintenance done lately? Any hydraulic belt failure that could have caused overheating? Any computer problems? Exceeding engine RPM redline going downhill? Any starting problems that could be from a hydraulic lock (coolant in combustion chamber)? Having to add coolant frequently? Unusual rattles or valve train noise at idle? Turbo making any unusual whistling noises? Using any more oil than normal? EGT running normal range if you have one?
There must be an underlying problem to have the same thing occur in two different cylinders 2000 miles apart. Have to figure what that common denominator might be. Possible bad mechanic but what caused it the first time?
Have seen a turbo seal go on a Cummins 8.3 that damaged several cylinders but could happen to any diesel and not 2000 miles apart.
Try and search for others with the same problem on Cummins engine forums.
Keep forum posted.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on August 27, 2011, 11:16:23 am
This is a 400 ISL engine. The only symptom was an occasional miss for a short time and then it would stop. Was adding injector cleaner to the fuel. Both times this happened I was cruising at about 58-60 mph and looked in the side mirror saw black smoke pour out when accelerating. Like Brett said, the problem was probably due to valve lash, but Cummins states a readjustment is needed at 100,000 miles. This engine was way short of this mileage. Just hope this doesn't happen to anyone else. This is suppose to be an idiot proof engine and I'm sure the engine never exceeded 2,000 rpm.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 27, 2011, 11:52:01 am
Checked several forums and noticed Brett has been asking questions concerning the failure. The only thing I have seen so far is the four year regardless of mileage valve adjustment. This has gotten the attention of some on those forums. The other concerned a bent pushrod related to Jake brake operation.
Check the posts and photos in this forum: Woodalls Open Roads Forum: Class A Motorhomes: Good Grief! Blown Push Rod... (http://forums.woodalls.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/24416080/print) /true.cfm
Problems also started with #2 cylinder.
Initially, it would seem a four year regardless of mileage valve adjustment is called for.
Sure that Brett will have more info shortly.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: George Stoltz on August 27, 2011, 12:38:01 pm
Apparently, not everyone agrees on when this service should be done. Shown below in blue is our experience while at a Cummins facility in May of 2010 in Bakersfield, CA and copied from my entry on ForeForums. This was in regard to "Adjust Engine Valves" as listed in the Foretravel Maintenance Schedule booklet.
Re: M-11 Service « Reply #13 on: May 25, 2010, 02:03:11 PM » Quote The Foretravel service book is way OFF when it comes to some of the Cummins service intervals. Less than two hours ago I talked to Cummins West in Bakersfield CA and they said don't even think about that kind of service until we are at at least 150,000 miles. Sure is nice to run into people who are honest and don't want to take your money for unnecessary service.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on August 27, 2011, 12:47:15 pm
Tom, Sorry and surprised to hear about your problem. If you saw a lot of black smoke, might be wise to check the turbocharger for missing blades, turbo and charge air cooler for air leaks. The engine is not idiot proof if a previous owner did not maintain it correctly. Incorrect coolant can lead to holes in the cylinder liner walls. Incorrect oil type is not good for long life. After the head is pulled, you should find out if there is other damage. We don't have the same engine, but the same brand. My manual calls for valve lash to be checked at 25K miles (unless my memory is failing me). Being new to diesel engines 3 yrs ago, I was surprised that the lifters are mechanical and not hydraulic (may be different on later engines). I checked my valve lash at about 55k miles and no adjustment was needed. There is a special tool called a barring tool or barring gear that is inserted in a hole (normally sealed with a rubber plug) to engage the flywheel gear teeth. The end of the tool opposite the gear teeth has a 1/2" square drive hole for a ratchet handle. Allows one to rotate the engine crankshaft slowly by hand. The procedure for checking valve lash is described in detail in my Cummins engine owners manual. I have the mechanical C 8.3 L engine with 2 valves per cylinder.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 27, 2011, 01:17:43 pm
George,
Wonder what their idea of "adjustment" is? My idea is pulling the valve cover and setting the lash (clearance) with a feeler gauge and box wrench to loosen/tighten the rocker arm nut. Unless something is in the way, this would be a DIY 30 minute, 60 max job for a straight six. Pulling the head seems like a wallet adjustment!
Just sitting here thinking, it would seem the valve clearance would have to be incredibly loose to have the pushrod come off and then bend. Dave or anyone else care to comment?
Tom,
A lot of HD diesels stick with the tried and true mechanical lifters. For some of the big Euro boxer truck diesels, a hydraulic lifter failure could mean complete disassemble of the engine to get at the lifters. Pancake aircraft piston engines are the same.
I am usually in a hurry so rather than using a tool to slowly turn the crank, I just use a hand starter switch connected to the starter solenoid (with fuel or computer shut off).
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: George Stoltz on August 27, 2011, 01:28:14 pm
Pierce,
I am in over my head. Best to wait for Dave M or Brett to respond to your DIY project.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Dan Stansel on August 27, 2011, 02:16:15 pm
Tom: All of us with 02s with the 400 engine want to keep up with all the info as to what happened. When you have info pls post for us. Tks DAN
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on August 27, 2011, 03:38:07 pm
The turbo is OK, it was checked first time. The coach is presently at a certified Cummins shop. I will post more as soon as I find out anything. The cylinder head hasn't been removed as of yet. A sincere thanks to all of you that are concerned as to why this happened.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: wolfe10 on August 27, 2011, 04:19:05 pm
Yup, checking/adjusting the valves on the in-line 6 cylinder diesels is not difficult.
Separate subject-- on the failed engine, yes, if removing the valve cover does not reveal the CAUSE of the push rod failure, it is likely that removal of the head is the next step. Was it the same pushrod each time or a different one? Replacing the pushrod would require a valve adjustment after the replacement.
Brett
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on August 27, 2011, 05:14:59 pm
They were both intake push rods. First time #2 cylinder, Second time #5 cylinder.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on August 27, 2011, 06:11:06 pm
I only know that on the 855 series and others, not certain on the newer series B, C, ISB, ISC, ISL ISM AND THE ISX. But on the older 855 with the PT pump setup, there are 3 marks on the damper pulley 120 deg apart, marked with the valves that are to be adjusted, in two turns of the pulley, you will get all 6 cylinder positions adjusted IF you keep your head clear. Now IF you get screwed up, you will bend push rods. As they say, that's a fact.
I will check Monday for the procedure for the newer series ISL, ISM. maybe that same, but unknown to me. While I am a Cummins "Dealer", it is in the generation division. However I know who to ask for most any crazy stuff. I no longer turn wrenches on any big engines, only mine, tried to give that up when I resigned from Cat. Amen..
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Don Hay on August 27, 2011, 07:25:17 pm
Tom Endres' Quote: "Cummins states a readjustment is needed at 100,000 miles. This engine was way short of this mileage."
After reading about Tom's Problems, I thought it would be appropriate to underscore Cummins' recommendation (at least for the C8.3 mechanical engine): Take your coach in to a Cummins service center when your mileage reaches 100,000 miles for valve adjustment. Before I bought my U-280 (C8.3 mechanical), I called the Cummins National Customer Service Center and asked them, with 79,000 miles currently on the engine, what should I expect to do to the engine in the future? I was told to plan on taking the coach in at 100,000 miles for a valve adjustment, and assuming I change fluids and filters according to manufacturer's recommendation, that I could expect to take it in for a major overhaul at 450-500,000 miles.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: GregoryS on August 28, 2011, 08:00:17 am
Tom, Very sorry to have had this happen to you. Obviously, something very unusual is happening. While I don't have a great deal of experience with the types of diesels in our coaches, I do have a great deal of experience with a disaster that was GM's foray into diesel engines (remade olds 350). I operated 3 repair facilities in the Chicago Metro Area and every winter I would tow in a handful of diesels that wouldn't start, keep them in the shop overnight to warm them up, and the next morning they would start, through running extremely rough due to broken valve train components. After discussions with owners, these were all caused by the introduction of starting either.
I think the likelihood of valve or injection timing slipping enough to bend push rods, then returning to normal to allow you to drive 2,000 miles, and slipping again, are way beyond the statistical laws of probability. It would make sense that something is being introduced into the cylinders at the wrong time or in wrong amounts that is causing predetination or a hydraulic effect. If you coach has the either assist starting system, I would look at it carefully. Others more knowledgeable than I can attest to what would happen to an engine running down the road at 60 mph, receiving a shot of either. I do hope you find a solution. Loosing confidence in ones machine can be just as devastating as the loss to your pocketbook.
Gregory S 2003 designer
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on August 28, 2011, 08:37:30 am
Gregory has a good point, I would have to guess if the engine got enough either to bend push rods, also the top (compression) rings would become so detempered the compression would be so low you would have to use either to start the engine on a warm day.
Have seen a Detroit engine that had to be eithered on a hot day or it would not start, that is so sad and a for sure sign of too many idiots on the loose with either cans.
When (Rarely) we need to use a helper starter fluid, we use carburator cleaner (Berkebile 2+2), it is very good with a softer less destructive explosion.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on August 28, 2011, 08:52:34 am
To my knowledge, there is no ether injection on this coach. My '89 with a CAT. 3208T had an ether injection system. The mechanic had asked me this question the first time this happened. I have never used ether on this engine, so I'm at a loss?????
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on August 28, 2011, 05:18:03 pm
No ether injection on my ISL 400.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on August 29, 2011, 05:54:51 pm
Today I had a good discussion with the Cummins factory shop, was informed the main thing that bends push rods, would be from over speed. Otherwise extreme rare, Overspeed in the RV arena is not uncommon, as some drivers let the rpm build up without realizing the issues. Of course no one ever over speeds their engine,
Next, the valve adjustment procedure can be done by anyone, but they should purchase the shop manual for correct method. Like a lot of things we do, once you learn how it is simple,but difficult to explain in type written words. Most anything you do to your coach, purchase the manual for the job your doing, makes things work better andyou feel better knowing it was done correct. It is nice to "wing it" sometimes.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: George Stoltz on August 29, 2011, 06:23:12 pm
Dave,
Can you provide some guidelines here? Describe what would be an actual overspeeding case. The concept of over speeding one's engine is foreign to me. I'd like to avoid being in that situation.
Thanks
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: John Haygarth on August 29, 2011, 06:30:47 pm
George, I could be wrong but I read that as going down a hill for instance and not pulling back some with retarder or Brakes etc and watching the RPM zoom up over 2300 or some suvh figure. I know we will get and "official verdict" pretty soon. John
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: wolfe10 on August 29, 2011, 06:48:11 pm
I can't picture an overspeed with an Allison 3000 or 4000 transmission either.
They WILL upshift if the exceed their preset RPM limit, irrespective of what you do to select a lower gear.
BTW, all engines have a governed RPM and a (higher) max RPM under no load.
Brett
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on August 29, 2011, 07:16:48 pm
Brett: That begs a question about my 2002 ISL. While heading down a hill (grapevine was the first), with the retarder full on, around 40 mph, in 4th gear (auto-selected), twice my engine has shifted into 3rd gear (according to my VMSpc readout) and sent the RPM to what I considered an astronomical figure. When this has happened, I have thrown off the retarder and used the service brakes to slow the coach.
Since the engine and transmission are supposed to prevent unsafe reving, what is going on? Of course, there is NO load on the engine in those circumstances, but I get really excited at a high RPM like that. Can you shed some light on it...as I imagine there are a few of us on this thread with 400 ISLs.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on August 29, 2011, 08:25:57 pm
This is funny, For me, I feel we should all go up the mountains at 75 mph and down the same grade at 25 mph, I do not care for down hill speeders, it like the guys with the small engines, they can raise lots of dust in the parking lot but get in the way on the road due to underpowered what ever.
Picture the guy going up at 25 mph, he is also the one that goes down at 75 mph. He is just trying to keep up.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on August 29, 2011, 10:11:09 pm
Went over to Black Hills Truck and Trailer this afternoon to see if the cylinder head was removed. It wasn't pulled when I got there so I waited; a little after 3PM the head was removed. I asked if I could go out in the shop and look. They said it would be okay to do so if I wore safety glasses, no problem I said. Well I found it hard to believe, but all the valves looked to be properly seated. No evidence of valve kissing the piston or hitting cylinder liner. Tomorrow they plan to remove the valves on #2 and #5 cylinders. If valves are okay they plan to check cam and tappets, which makes sense to me. Here comes the kicker now. They want to pull the oil pan to check the cam. I asked the GM why they had pull the pan when they already had the cylinder head off. He looked at me as if I were stupid and said the tappets were too heavy to lift out. I told him that Cummins had a special tool to do this part of the job. I'm very suspicious at this point. Maybe I'm wrong and I hope someone corrects me before I loose my temper. A little voice tells me, "Tom your are about to get ripped off." So far I have not gotten a written estimate even though I've asked twice. I was told they can't give me a estimate until they discover what is wrong. Getting a little winded, sorry for that. Any input would be greatly appreciated. I don't want to make matters worse and I need to show some tact here.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: wolfe10 on August 29, 2011, 10:22:27 pm
Brett: That begs a question about my 2002 ISL. While heading down a hill (grapevine was the first), with the retarder full on, around 40 mph, in 4th gear (auto-selected), twice my engine has shifted into 3rd gear (according to my VMSpc readout) and sent the RPM to what I considered an astronomical figure.
If the transmission has a lower gear selected (left shift window) and you slow down enough, it WILL downshift to a lower gear just as it should.
Please post what RPM the engine reached in 3rd gear and what Cummins says is max no load RPM (not governed RPM) for your ISL.
Brett
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: John Duld on August 29, 2011, 10:23:42 pm
Since the head is off maybe they can confirm that the rocker (on the valves you have had problems with) move freely on the rocker shaft and that the valves move freely in the valve guides.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on August 29, 2011, 11:59:39 pm
Brett: That begs a question about my 2002 ISL. While heading down a hill (grapevine was the first), with the retarder full on, around 40 mph, in 4th gear (auto-selected), twice my engine has shifted into 3rd gear (according to my VMSpc readout) and sent the RPM to what I considered an astronomical figure.
If the transmission has a lower gear selected (left shift window) and you slow down enough, it WILL downshift to a lower gear just as it should.
Please post what RPM the engine reached in 3rd gear and what Cummins says is max no load RPM (not governed RPM) for your ISL.
Brett
I cannot find the "max no load RPM". Frankly, I have never hear of this term before...and can't find any number in Cummins data online. The data I can find is that it should be 2200 RPM governed...and I am sure I saw a 3 at the leading edge of the RPM readout on the VMSpc...like 3100 RPM at the time it downshifted to 3rd.
The point being, is if these things really can get to 3000 rpm in 3rd gear when the transmission is trying to use downshifting to assist the retarder in slowing the coach, touching the fuel feed and brakes and removing the retarder all at once would seem to take it instantly into an unavoidable overrev situation as there would be at least a minimal load as I trying to convince the transmission to upshift out of 3rd by those actions. I did NOT select anything but 6th gear (completely automatic) when the transmission decided to go into 3rd gear. Had I not had the VMSpc (or been looking at the tach), I'd not have seen the large number.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: amos.harrison on August 30, 2011, 06:14:46 am
I've been told by Cummins that max RPM under engine braking should not exceed 10% more than max governed speed.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on August 30, 2011, 03:27:49 pm
Just for usual info, the Detroit 71 and 92 Series take alot more overspeed than the Cummins or Cat engines. 3200 rpm is not a damaging overspeed. where that would kill Cummins and Cats. I am spermenting with colors.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on August 30, 2011, 06:36:26 pm
My 2 cents worth on the Allison World Transmission, which many of us have and some of us don't seem to understand. You should have an Allison Operators manual and have read it. Allison will also mail you a combination CD/DVD about the operation of their transmission, if you request it. It used to be free. Not very much about technique though. Try this link, or 800-252-5283. Ask for the driver training video DV5459EN Allison Transmission (http://www.allisontransmission.com/publications/pubs/DV5459EN.jsp)
Almost all of us have driven cars with automatic transmissions and that may be the cause of the misunderstanding about "what happens on downshifts". On most cars the transmission does not downshift until the engine RPM is just above idle unless the driver uses the shift lever to select a lower gear. This provides almost no engine braking effect, but it does help improve fuel economy by allowing one to coast when you take your foot off the gas.
The Allision World Transmission is designed for use in large trucks and other heavy vehicles. If you had been trained as a large truck driver on a truck with a manual transmission one of the first things you would do when slowing down is to downshift the transmission and use the engine to provide some of the braking. You would keep downshifting as the speed is reduced. Large diesel engines have a smaller RPM range than cars and need a transmission with many forward speeds in order to move a heavy load and still reach a decent road speed. The Allison World Transmission is designed to do what a truck driver with a manual transmission would do, but do it automatically. The driver still has some responsibility to know what is happening. Going up a mountain is no problem, select D and let the transmission do the work. The only reason for selecting a lower gear range would be for engine overheating or hunting between gears. Going down the mountain is a different situation and the transmission will need some driver input. The transmission has a throttle sensor and when you take your foot off the throttle this is sensed, it thinks that you want to slow down, and at the appropriate speed it will downshift. This actually aids in slowing your coach whether you have stepped on the brake or not. If you wanted the downshift to happen sooner you could use the down arrow to select a lower gear range. The transmission stays in this lower gear until you apply throttle and then it will shift up if not already in the highest selected gear. The transmission should not downshift though if doing so would cause the engine to over rev. As soon as a safe speed is reached the downshift should occur. Going down a mountain in a lower gear if you allow RPM to build to an engine overspeed condition, the transmission should upshift above the selected gear range to protect the engine. This will come as a big surprise as suddenly you have less engine braking and are picking up speed. About the only thing you can do is get on the brakes and slow down. A good driver will pay attention to engine RPM and not let it happen. When selecting a lower gear is necessary, I think the best procedure is to slow first and then select the lower gear. That way there is less of a chance of engine overspeed should the downshift occur when it should not.
Let's talk about the retarder. Not many Allison transmissions have it, most large trucks don't. Emergency vehicles like fire trucks and Foretravels seem to be the major users. Except for the fluid and the fact that it is bolted to the transmission it is almost a totally separate device. Internal rotational speed of the retarder is directly controlled by the road speed of the rear drive wheels. If the wheels aren't turning, it's not turning. The retarder provides braking to the rear drive wheels only. At slow speed even full on, this is almost no braking. The faster the wheels are turning the more effect it has. At 80 mph full on, it might have enough effect to cause the rear wheels to lose traction or skid, they wouldn't lock up as with regular brakes though. This is my imagination at work. I don't know if this would happen and don't plan to find out. Anyway you would definitely notice a strong braking effect. I have found that coming down a mountain that I can generally apply about 2 or 3 notches of retarder on the joy stick and downshift to a range that will kept the speed from increasing generally works well. Transmission temperature increases to about 225 and stays there. If speed begins to build, I can add a notch of retard for a moment or tap the brakes to slow down, but I don't ride the brakes. I try to keep the transmission temperature below 250. If I suddenly find the engine is about to over rev the last thing I would want to do is turn off the retarder. That would reduce braking and just make the situation worse. There is a safety device built into retarder operation; if the fluid temperature gets too high, retarding ceases as the fluid returns to the accumulator. Again this will come as a big surprise as braking suddenly decreases.
There has been so much discussion about brake fade that some of us may have become reluctant to use the brakes. Certainly this is a problem with large trucks with heavy loads and drum brakes. We aren't quite as heavy as those guys (does not apply to full timers towing a garage) and we have disk brakes that can dissipate heat faster and are not as likely to fade. This doesn't mean ride the brakes, but an occasional stab or application of the brakes is okay.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 30, 2011, 06:40:24 pm
Have bent several pushrods in a 430 Lincoln engine and an old 356 Porsche from over revving them. Pretty easy to do but no real damage done. Porsche had to have new pushrod tubes (pushrod went down through the tube) so head had to be taken off.
Possibility: When cylinder #2 bent a pushrod, cylinder #5 pushrod was also slightly bent at the same time but only failed 2000 miles later.
Pushrods are easily checked for straightness. Put them on a flat surface and then roll them. Even the slightest bend is easily seen.
Slightly bent pushrods may indicate by increased valve clearance (lash) when checked with a feeler gauge. With a slight bend, they are very slightly shorter in length. Naturally checked before any valve train/engine work. I can imagine other ways to bend a pushrod but over revving caused by automatic trans gear selection would be #1
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 30, 2011, 07:09:06 pm
Nice, Dave, just read it.
When heading downhill in with the Jake on, I usually let the revs built to within 100 rpm or so of governed speed (redline). I then apply the service brakes moderately until the revs drop by approx. 300 rpm. I then repeat this procedure until I get to the bottom of the grade. Should the revs build too quickly, I use the service brakes to slow down to the speed/rpm range of the next lower gear and then shift down. This is a pretty relaxed procedure as I know the Detroit has a very large safety factor for over revving.
Driving this way, I have NEVER heated the brakes to a point of any smell or fade.
With the Jake on, I DO watch the tach every few seconds. Have never had the Allison make an upshift to save the engine from over revving.
I am a very firm believer in moderate intermittent application of the service brakes, not the light constant application recommended by some sources.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on August 30, 2011, 08:30:12 pm
Stopped by the repair facility today, they found some metal on the oil drain plug. They are continuing to check engine, but if everything checks out they are going to take it to an Allison repair shop and have the transmission checked. The repair shop is thinking on the lines of this forum's present thread. I'm at a loss on this because both times this failure occurred I was on fairly flat terrain with retarder on in the first position, transmission set to #6, and cruise on at 60 mph. They are telling me that they can read faults up to one year ago. If I caused an over speed condition on rpm then I guess I,m guilty.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: J. D. Stevens on August 30, 2011, 09:57:17 pm
... I have found that coming down a mountain that I can generally apply about 2 or 3 notches of retarder on the joy stick and downshift to a range that will kept the speed from increasing generally works well. ...
We descended from Eisenhower Tunnel to Denver in the '97 U295 without touching the service brake. We kept the speeds on downhill by choosing the appropriate gear and tweaking the retarder with the joystick. It was sweet.
We generally descend a steep hill at a speed similar to the speed we could maintain climbing the hill. No smoke, no drama, no overheating of any parts, and no excessive engine speed. If you must use the brake in addition to the transmission and retarder to keep from speeding up, you are probably moving too fast.
This has little to do with the Tom's problems, but it might help folk think about engine speed on a downhill.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 31, 2011, 10:23:13 am
Stopped by the repair facility today, they found some metal on the oil drain plug. They are continuing to check engine, but if everything checks out they are going to take it to an Allison repair shop and have the transmission checked. The repair shop is thinking on the lines of this forum's present thread. I'm at a loss on this because both times this failure occurred I was on fairly flat terrain with retarder on in the first position, transmission set to #6, and cruise on at 60 mph. They are telling me that they can read faults up to one year ago. If I caused an over speed condition on rpm then I guess I,m guilty.
Tom,
Don't beat yourself up about this one. The failure from the bent pushrod may have started at an earlier time. Tell tail metal on the drain plug may be from that rubbing and may be a sign it has been rubbing metal to metal for some time. The Allison shifting down may be the culprit. I'm sure you (and everyone else) will be waiting for the results.
Have had my Allison shift down suddenly at low speed where I thought the tach was going to the end. My engine light blinks several different codes but have chosen to ignore it.
Trying to put the little pieces together at long distance with a little help from my Belgian buddy, Hercule Poirot. I just don't have as many of the "little gray cells".
Dave, like your "sperimentation" with color. When we go to town here in the foothills, we usually leave off the first letter or syllable. Why bother with "tire" when it's so easy to say "tarr"? Have to clean it up and use spell check here on the forum or only my relatives could understand.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: George Hatfield on August 31, 2011, 12:38:57 pm
Jerry.... Thanks for taking the time to write up your summary on the Allison transmission. Well done. We ordered the CD.
George
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Brad & Christine Slaughter on August 31, 2011, 07:55:05 pm
... The driver still has some responsibility to know what is happening.... Going down the mountain is a different situation and the transmission will need some driver input. The transmission has a throttle sensor and when you take your foot off the throttle this is sensed, it thinks that you want to slow down, and at the appropriate speed it will downshift. This actually aids in slowing your coach whether you have stepped on the brake or not. If you wanted the downshift to happen sooner you could use the down arrow to select a lower gear range. The transmission stays in this lower gear until you apply throttle and then it will shift up if not already in the highest selected gear. The transmission should not downshift though if doing so would cause the engine to over rev. As soon as a safe speed is reached the downshift should occur. Going down a mountain in a lower gear if you allow RPM to build to an engine overspeed condition, the transmission should upshift above the selected gear range to protect the engine. This will come as a big surprise as suddenly you have less engine braking and are picking up speed. About the only thing you can do is get on the brakes and slow down. A good driver will pay attention to engine RPM and not let it happen. When selecting a lower gear is necessary, I think the best procedure is to slow first and then select the lower gear. That way there is less of a chance of engine overspeed should the downshift occur when it should not.
Exactly...the transmission SHOULD NOT allow a downshift and cause an overspeed. But with full retard on, and no throttle, transmission set to "6", in 4th gear (selected by the Allison, not me), at about 40 mph, the Allison transmission DID downshift into 3rd, causing what I presume IS an unsafe overspeed.
My point being that it is capable of apparently causing an overspeed in this condition, and folks should be aware of the possibility. As Brett says, one is supposed to be able to call for 1st gear at 60 MPH, and the transmission is supposed to hear "shift all the way down to 1st gear when possible...but not right now because the speed is too great". I don't want to test that, but I can believe it...as far as MANUAL downshifting goes.
This 3rd gear downshift has never happened without my retarder being full on (I don't let the temperature exceed about 215-220 degrees, ever, by the way), and it is as if the Allison is trying to induce more engine braking because it knows that I am trying to go slow since I am traveling with a closed throttle and am in full retard. The only thing I have been able to do when it chooses an inappropriate downshift, is to remove one or both of the reasons for the shift...which means to remove the retarder (at least partially) and use the service brakes to quickly get it slower than the 40 it is holding. Then the Allison brings it out of 3rd gear quickly, altho braking is a bit more difficult. I never hesitate to see if the Allison will get back into 4th on its own.
It isn't that I travel downhill too fast either (I'm that safe slowpoke), it just seems to be a function of having the coach at about 40 mph and trying to keep it there on a 6% grade. When the transmission chooses to make this downshift, I'm usually happily coasting down at 40 mph, using the service brakes intermittently as one should, but with full retard on a long downgrade out here in the West. I'd be interested if the same thing happens to all ISL400/Allison coaches. Certainly sounds like such an event could cause the problem at hand.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on August 31, 2011, 08:19:38 pm
Today the mechanic on my coach found that the tappet on #2 exhaust and #5 exhaust was broken, pieces found in oil pan. This presents another problem not yet investigated, and that being the block scored from broken lifters. (please don't let this be) Will know tomorrow. I don't think this had anything to do with over speed of engine. Experts will know more. I'll keep you all informed.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: George Stoltz on August 31, 2011, 08:24:58 pm
Tom,
I am hoping for a positive outcome.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 31, 2011, 09:31:00 pm
So, two bent pushrods and two damaged lifters. Question one is, how could the lifter become damaged and then bend a pushrod if no sign of a valve hitting the piston? Since these are mechanical lifters, they should be one piece.
Or second option; the pushrod(s) is bent, rubs against the cylinder head causing metal shavings/particles to fall directly down into the lifter bore below with some particles eventually wedging between the lifter and the lifter bore. The camshaft would then keep repeatedly pushing the lifter up damaging/breaking the top of the lifter and further scoring the lifter bore. This could also cause the lifter to stick in the bore, keep the exhaust valve open and then the piston would hit it bending the pushrod, but no sign of contact.
The valves don't have any angle so valve to piston contact would not bend the valve but drive it up bending the weakest link in the valve train, the pushrod.
Any other ideas?
Fingers crossed on both hands for no major block damage.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tim Fiedler on September 01, 2011, 12:31:44 am
Have you contacted the Cummins service rep for the area and asked for extended warranty support? Wonder if they would do a shared expense or other - you never know unless y ask.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 01, 2011, 10:11:59 am
To change the flavor a bit, the local fire department has a 50 Series Detroit (4 cylinder) with the Allison and a Jake Brake, it has lots of valve issues from over speed when the Jake is applied, the engine immediately down shifts, over revs (3000 rpm) and screws up the valve setup. I have suggested they have the program checked and not allow down shifting until a safe rpm would not cause damage. Nope, that can not be done, Now I feel real out dumbed. With a computer engine, computer transmission, they seem not able to program a desireable downshift. Maybe some one here has a brilliant clue as to why. The motor Sargent and I have had some long talks about this subject, now they require the driver to stand up on the brake pedal when the Jake is active, to slow down quickly, trying to keep the over speed to a minute time period. Still the local Detroit/Allison shop seems to have no clue. Amazing.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Dave Head on September 01, 2011, 10:21:34 am
It would have to be an electronic Allison to have a pre-select downshift. Betcha they have the preselect set to like 2nd instead of 4th. I would be like ALL OVER that shop...
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Bill Willett on September 01, 2011, 10:29:44 am
With the engine EMC they can tell if the engine was over reved, if this were my coach with broken lifters,the front of the engine would be open and the cam pulled and inspected,cam bearing's inspected,any part that was suspect would be replaced. IMHO
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 01, 2011, 10:30:36 am
Have tried telling them that was a strong possibility, but the shop seems to think all is well. nother case of tax money at play, or who cares, em dumb taxpayers will cover it. Maybe the motor Sargent does not get that conveyed to the shop ? Like feeling "Out Dumbed"
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on September 01, 2011, 10:32:14 am
The solid lifter (tappet) has a roller on the end that contacts the cam. Both exhaust tappets broke near the edge of roller. Looks as if roller rides on a brass or bronze bushing? Both exhaust lobes on cam scored, so cam will have to be replaced. What has puzzled me is that both push rod tubes on intake valves bent. No bent valves.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on September 01, 2011, 12:14:43 pm
Today the mechanic on my coach found that the tappet on #2 exhaust and #5 exhaust was broken, pieces found in oil pan. This presents another problem not yet investigated, and that being the block scored from broken lifters. (please don't let this be) Will know tomorrow. I don't think this had anything to do with over speed of engine. Experts will know more. I'll keep you all informed.
I think it is possible that the tappets may have been defective when new. Doubt if Cummins would ever admit to that, unless they have had others fail. If the block is undamaged or damage repairable, should all the tappets be replaced and is the cam undamaged? I hope the news is good. With no valve to piston contact seems like they just failed, and the failure of one caused the failure of the second. If a crack developed in the tappet before the failure, that should be detectable, but might take a factory engineer to determine that. Save all the broken pieces in case you need them later for some reason. The fastest, least expensive repair, with later piece of mind, might be a rebuilt block.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 01, 2011, 03:06:17 pm
The solid lifter (tappet) has a roller on the end that contacts the cam. Both exhaust tappets broke near the edge of roller. Looks as if roller rides on a brass or bronze bushing? Both exhaust lobes on cam scored, so cam will have to be replaced. What has puzzled me is that both push rod tubes on intake valves bent. No bent valves.
Valves (in your engine) should be at zero angle relative to the piston stroke. In other words, they come straight down to the top of the piston. If the top of the piston is flat, it would try and push them straight up. Valves are very strong and supported on much of their length by the valve guide. The guide is long so to make sure the valve contacts the seat accurately and to allow heat to transfer to the cylinder head from the very hot valve.
The pushrods are much longer, and only touch at each end at the rocker arm and the valve lifter so with no other support, they are the weak link and will bend before anything else. Because of their length, they have to be made as light as reasonably possible to keep the mass (reciprocating weight) to a minimum so they can change directions very quickly. Especially important at high RPM as too much weight (valve wants to keep opening) can result in the valves contacting the pistons during an event called valve float.
This is the advantage to overhead cam engines. They don't have pushrods so the total reciprocating weight in the valve train is much less. Many don't even have rocker arms so the lifter rides directly on the cam lobe.
With a very low mileage engine like yours, it is possible the lifters had a factory fault but in my opinion, there may have been some kind of event that caused the failures. After 75K of trouble free miles, two failures within 2K is a pretty good coincidence. Your engine should be just starting in life.
Along with changing the camshaft, most shops will want to change all the lifters.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on September 01, 2011, 04:23:59 pm
Exactly...the transmission SHOULD NOT allow a downshift and cause an overspeed. But with full retard on, and no throttle, transmission set to "6", in 4th gear (selected by the Allison, not me), at about 40 mph, the Allison transmission DID downshift into 3rd, causing what I presume IS an unsafe overspeed.
My point being that it is capable of apparently causing an overspeed in this condition, and folks should be aware of the possibility. As Brett says, one is supposed to be able to call for 1st gear at 60 MPH, and the transmission is supposed to hear "shift all the way down to 1st gear when possible...but not right now because the speed is too great". I don't want to test that, but I can believe it...as far as MANUAL downshifting goes.
This 3rd gear downshift has never happened without my retarder being full on (I don't let the temperature exceed about 215-220 degrees, ever, by the way), and it is as if the Allison is trying to induce more engine braking because it knows that I am trying to go slow since I am traveling with a closed throttle and am in full retard. The only thing I have been able to do when it chooses an inappropriate downshift, is to remove one or both of the reasons for the shift...which means to remove the retarder (at least partially) and use the service brakes to quickly get it slower than the 40 it is holding. Then the Allison brings it out of 3rd gear quickly, altho braking is a bit more difficult. I never hesitate to see if the Allison will get back into 4th on its own.
It isn't that I travel downhill too fast either (I'm that safe slowpoke), it just seems to be a function of having the coach at about 40 mph and trying to keep it there on a 6% grade. When the transmission chooses to make this downshift, I'm usually happily coasting down at 40 mph, using the service brakes intermittently as one should, but with full retard on a long downgrade out here in the West. I'd be interested if the same thing happens to all ISL400/Allison coaches. Certainly sounds like such an event could cause the problem at hand.
I believe that what you say actually happened, but it should not have happened. There may be something with the transmission that needs to be corrected. The operator's manual states that the World Transmission Electronic Control System consists of five major components connected by wiring harnesses. The ECU, throttle position sensor, three speed sensors, shift selector, and control module(contains solenoid valves and a pressure switch). The manual does not say if there is an electrical connection with the retarder or if the retarder wiring is separate. A defect in any one item could cause a problem. A broken wire or bad connection could be causing the problem, which sounds like it is intermittent and not always there. No doubt the transmission is programmed by the installer for the engine it is connected to. That programming may have been corrupted, lost, or changed by someone. With the pushbutton shift selector one can read the stored diagnostic codes, if any, up to 5 max. Foretravel or an Allison shop should be able with a code reader to see all the historical codes.
The shift arrows are not directly causing a shift. They just program the ECU for a maximum gear such as 4 or 5. If the transmission is in 6 and you ask for 5 or 4, the ECU will not (should not)downshift until it is safe to do so. It does happen immediately in most cases with normal RPM.
I have never had my transmission do what yours did. If you turned off the retarder with the hand lever, it would just come back on again as soon as braking is applied.
I think you need to get your transmission checked before some engine damage occurs. Just drive without the retarder switch on until you can have it checked. Most motorhomes don't have it, so it's not really necessary. If you feel confident and know how to be safe working under your coach, you could check the transmission wiring for damage, unplug and replug the connectors, checking for corrosion, and maybe use some Corrosion X on them as preventive maintenance.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on September 01, 2011, 06:45:12 pm
Got the worse news of this whole mess, the block is scored badly. Will have to replace it with a new short block at a cost of about $15-20K. They are also looking for a re-manufactured engine.
Mechanic said the first repair was not done correctly. The #2 tappet should of been replaced when this first happened.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 01, 2011, 07:28:22 pm
Tom, I am very sorry to learn of the damage to the block, I guess there is no saving it ? Also, I am sure they can locate a re-man engine/short block for you, Cummins advertises they have them all over the USA. They should be looking for a Cummins Factory Re-man engine, not some outside good ole boys job.
I would be wondering why they are not interested in rebuilding your present engine using new block, cam, lifters and valve parts as needed, you have a lot of good parts, crank, head, fuel system, oil pump oil pan, etc. too many good parts to just donate to the shop unless they are looking for a short block and plan on using the outside parts. Anyway just an idea.
Next, I was worried about the first repair not lasting but the short distance, a sure sign of poor mechanic work. Am hopeing it was a Cummins shop and not a "shade tree" outfit, If it was a Cummins shop, I would be communicating with them in very clear words, along with pictures and report from present shop as to improper mechanical repair work. GOOD LUCK
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 01, 2011, 09:05:49 pm
Tom,
So sorry. This is probably everyone's worst nightmare. If you had a fire, the insurance would cover it but this hits the pocket book hard. You will want to get a long written Cummins warranty but I'm sure you have thought of that many times.
Let us know what the shop thought was behind the failure. Yes, as above post, they should have gotten an handle on it a couple of thousand ago. Squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Not a confidence builder. Don't think I'll let Gaylie read this.
Good luck.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: George Stoltz on September 01, 2011, 09:27:36 pm
Let us know what the shop thought was behind the failure.
Tom,
This is truly a disaster. But at least no blood is on the ground. I realize that right now might not be the best time to "criticize" shop #1, but if they don't stand behind their work and you can get no assistance from them I do hope you will tell us who did the incompetent work. None of us want to go near the place.
P.S. If we win a multi-state lottery this weekend, we'll stroke you a big check
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: John Haygarth on September 01, 2011, 10:36:25 pm
As George states if they do not(first shop) give some consideration, just let them know that you will be posting their name etc on this forum and also FMCA so they can be seen by many thousands of Diesel owners who could have been their next customers. This should be done after they are given the chance to "help" in some way. John
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: PatC on September 02, 2011, 09:53:42 am
Next, I was worried about the first repair not lasting but the short distance, a sure sign of poor mechanic work. Am hopeing it was a Cummins shop and not a "shade tree" outfit, If it was a Cummins shop, I would be communicating with them in very clear words, along with pictures and report from present shop as to improper mechanical repair work. GOOD LUCK
X2 - Have you contacted them yet, and their response?
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on September 02, 2011, 11:20:56 am
Well Dave it all comes down to finances. I'll go with the least expensive repair so I can continue full timing.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tim Fiedler on September 02, 2011, 11:25:29 am
Good luck Tom. Hope George won the lottery. I doubt that lower level customer service folks at Cummins would give you any support towards the repairs, but if you keep escalating to senior vp or executive vp titles, you might get the parts for free or a 50/50 warrant split. Yes, the engine is old, but the miles are low, especially if a Cummins authorized shop did the first repair.
I have been very successful getting good outcomes with this approach, takes time and persistence, but can pay big dividends.
Ouch! And good luck. On Friday, September 2, 2011, Tom Endres <teeendres@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote
Well Dave it all comes down to finances. I'll go with the least expensive repair so I can continue full timing.
'02 U295 36' '99 Chevy Tracker Tome. y s
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on September 02, 2011, 11:30:39 am
Thanks George, for bringing a smile to my heart, haven't done that for a while.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on September 02, 2011, 11:42:37 am
I asked the GM of the authorized repair shop if Cummins would help me on the parts cost. He said if I was the original owner they might,but being the second owner they probably won't. Well at least I asked.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tim Fiedler on September 02, 2011, 11:47:17 am
Tom, One ask to the shop manager will not get it done. 10 phone calls, multiple escalations and hours of your time is what is required. But it could save you $20,000. Some people don't have the stomach for the work, but believe me that it is done often. A senior or executive vp at cummings has budget for this sort of thing and broad powers to make customers happy. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: George Stoltz on September 02, 2011, 01:48:36 pm
Tom,
Give some serious thought to what Tim has said. I have had very satisfying results with contacting the CEO at Dell and at Lenovo and in both cases the problem was solved to my satisfaction at no cost. But it took some persistence and in each case I had to ask who they report to. Never get angry on the phone or you lose.
If you can find the name of the person to contact at Cummins and if you write me a complete message with all of the details, I will draft a letter for you.
This is one situation that should not be shrugged off. IMHO.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 02, 2011, 02:00:27 pm
Tom, One ask to the shop manager will not get it done. 10 phone calls, multiple escalations and hours of your time is what is required. But it could save you $20,000. Some people don't have the stomach for the work, but believe me that it is done often. A senior or executive vp at cummings has budget for this sort of thing and broad powers to make customers happy. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Tom,
Tim has it exactly right. You have to stay in their face, day after day after day. Insurance companies, hospitals, etc. all have these "secret" funds available for people who won't take no for an answer. Have spent many hours writing letters for insurance claims when I would not take "their last offer".
You have a good forum here behind you. Never think you are imposing as this could happen to any one of us at any time. We ARE your support group.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Carol Savournin on September 02, 2011, 04:24:38 pm
"This is not an acceptable resolution to the issue. Who is your superior and how do I contact them?" Don't forget that you are a member of a forum that is many members strong ... Cummins Service Facility customers, who are all paying close attention to the locations that did GOOD work, and also BAD work. Motor homes besides Foretravel use Cummins engines, and many publications have "Letters to the Editor" type pages for you to write in to. You have hard data, retrieved by Cummins techs, that point to a faulty repair at a Cummins facility, and you are not asking for the moon. There are many talented Ombudsmen in our Forum who can help you keep negotiating with Cummins. Don't give up!! You can cause them $60,000 worth of bad publicity in the end ... or they can give you a break and be heroes! If your time is worth $100 per hour, you can surely devote a few hours a week towards a good resolution.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: John Haygarth on September 02, 2011, 05:46:45 pm
I have an idea that may just start some ball rolling. Why do not we start an online letter that is addressed to Cummins and we all put our names and phone #s on it to help Tom in this case (it may just prove helpful for someone else in the future) I am sure Steve can come up with a way to make it so we just add names to it. There are many Cummins engines out there. I also would be writing to them and telling them about this Forum and a letter is going to go to FMCA for the magazine with names of shops etc. Show this also to the repair shops that did the work and hopefully they will initiate some comment to Cummins John
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: wolfe10 on September 02, 2011, 06:07:48 pm
Some good advice here, but it may be premature.
You need to get in writing the CAUSE of the catastrophic failure that ruined the block (from the Cummins dealer). Only then can you effectively pursue a remedy. Many times, the dealer can work with his factory rep if he feels factory help is warranted. Dealer service managers/factory reps have long-standing working relationships. Do NOT skip this step. Said another way, DON'T start out by burning bridges.
Brett General Manager of automobile dealerships for 20 years, plus worked for Am Honda, Nissan and Chrysler Corp.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tim Fiedler on September 02, 2011, 06:11:56 pm
Amen! Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 02, 2011, 06:13:34 pm
Behind your idea 100% but should we wait for a word from Tom? He may have access to computer RPM readout from his rig. Last shop dropped the ball (or lifter) but is Allison also a possible culprit? Don't get me wrong but just want all ducks in row.
Yes, we are not driving VW campers here. We should be able to provide a good show of force. Not only should Tom be compensated but all Cummins operators should be notified what the exact problem is and what they will do to resolve the issue. Don't think it will do much for Cummins rep if the word gets out from a large group like ours. Plus, who wants this in the back of their mind when setting out on a long trip from home?
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: wolfe10 on September 02, 2011, 06:26:44 pm
Wait a minute, Pierce, don't pick on VW's (just kidding). I have logged many tens of thousands of miles in VW campers-- all over the U.S. and Mexico. Starting with 1958 right through a Vanagon pop top. The 1958 has driven across the Rio Grande River after a 200 mile trip down dirt roads in Mexico-- many other adventures in North America and Europe in them. Picked up the last one in Wiedenbruck, Germany (Westphalia factory) and drove all the way to Greece and back through Europe and crossed to tour England.
Yes, the more FACTS he can accumulate before deciding on how to proceed the better. But, not sure I would bring up Allison/overspeed to Cummins!
Brett
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on September 02, 2011, 06:42:14 pm
I don"t want anyone to misunderstand the circumstances here. The very first time this happened in Michigan I did not go to a authorized Cummins repair facility,because closest one was over one hundred miles away and towing expense was more than what I paid for repairs. Of course this is hindsight now. The second time this failure happened I went to an authorized Cummins repair shop. I guess a lot of the responsibility rest on my shoulders. I really don't like to point fingers. Thank all of you people for your understanding.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: John Haygarth on September 02, 2011, 07:22:51 pm
Then Tom a lot of the talking has to be with the first shop, obviuosly and their "reputation" John
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 02, 2011, 11:13:11 pm
Brett,
All my life when I have gone to a party, doo-wop dance or tried to join a group, I got in a fight within the first 30 minutes. Thought this was in my past but guess it is not to be. A simple VW comment has me the goat of the forum. I feel betrayed. :))
Actually, we have a very similar past. My family bought a new VW Micro Bus in 57 and I have owned a bunch of Vanagons since. I still have 3 1984's sitting here on the back 40, one a Westphalia and the others just garden variety water boxers. The Westphalia still has the original engine with over 200k with only a transaxle overhaul. Has been coast to coast several times, Mexico, Yellowstone and at one time had 3000 lbs of drywall on the roof (Fiberglas) and almost 30 bags of cement inside. Great vehicle.
Tom,
Sounds as if you did what most of us would have done in the same situation so don't feel you have anything to second guess yourself about. Hindsight is always 20-20.
Regardless of the repair done by the first shop, the two questions I have (and most of us have) are, was it a Cummins factory flaw that caused the original problem or was it an Allison glitch that is to blame for the failure? The computers on our Foretravels take a lot of operator error out of the equation but they could have a glitch themselves.
I do remember a similar incident on a forum about two or three years ago. There were photos of the head off and the damage. It also happened suddenly (don't they all). I did a search but nothing in the Foretravel forum that I could find. Anyone else remember this? Probably not related but...
Tom, only the best in bad times.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Michelle on September 02, 2011, 11:38:02 pm
I do remember a similar incident on a forum about two or three years ago. There were photos of the head off and the damage. It also happened suddenly (don't they all). I did a search but nothing in the Foretravel forum that I could find. Anyone else remember this? Probably not related but...
The only incident I can recall related to a FT is this one on Jim Busby's 2009 ISX:
We also send our hope that the root cause of Tom's engine issues can be determined and some financial assistance found.
Tom - purely out of curiosity, are you a CoachNet member? I am wondering if being one would have enabled the coach to have been towed to a Cummins service center at no cost to you rather than the first repair shop. If you are, and they did not tow to a Cummins shop, those of us who are members need to know this.
Michelle
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 03, 2011, 01:16:48 am
Yes, that was the incident. Not a related failure but good to know CoachNet is available. Not at all familiar with them but sure it is easy to research on net.
AAA Premier membership will tow an RV 150 miles at no cost and no payment to be reimbursed. I had a flat at a funeral and they put the spare on as fast as changing a car tire. Additional $25/yr. Good iPhone/Android free app for AAA.
Our RV insurance will also tow 150 miles as I remember. Wonder if you could put the two together for a 300 mile tow? Must be a way to do it. Also covers expenses while disabled. Think I will get the policy out and go over it again.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: GregoryS on September 03, 2011, 08:37:26 am
Tom, I am very sorry to read about the catastrophe that has befallen you. I have been on the road, but this morning have read all the posts regarding your issues. I have not read a definitive answer as to what has caused this problem. A latent defect in the Cummings Engine after 12 years somehow does not seem plausible. You might give some thought as to pursuing a claim with your insurance company. Obviously, some outside force came into play that caused onboard systems to malfunction and cause this disaster. I have seen rodents chew through critical wiring harnesses, road debris loosen crucial connections, etc. You might consider hiring a private insurance adjuster. It maybe difficult to find one whose area of expertise this is, but they are out there. Insurance companies will pay a claim if presented in a way that is justified. Private adjusters typically charge about 10%. I just can't believe how this could have happened out of the clear blue sky. There has to be a reason. I will be hoping for a positive outcome.
Gregory S 2003 Designer
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on September 03, 2011, 11:17:24 am
I'm sorry, but I am not a CoachNet subscriber so I can't answer the question as whether they will pay for towing to a Cummins shop. My insurance company, National Interstate, will pay reasonable towing expense. I don't know exactly what they mean by reasonable.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: George Stoltz on September 03, 2011, 11:54:39 am
Regarding towing:
Let's not make Tom feel any worse than he already does by playing "what if" or the "coulda, woulda, shouda game."
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on September 03, 2011, 12:49:45 pm
Here are some pictures of #2 intake tappet and #5 exhaust tappet. Mechanic said #2 tappet was the cause of engine loss, as you can see it was worn almost completely. He further stated that a piece or pieces of #2 probably plugged the oil hole for #5 tappet, causing it to run without lubrication and failing. The oil port for the tappets could be plugged by a grain of sand according to the mechanic. pic 2091 #2 tappet, 2092 #5 tappet, 2093 #5 tappet, 2094 #2tappet.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on September 03, 2011, 12:53:58 pm
Did something wrong, only one attachment out of four? Someone will have to explain to me about attaching more than one photo. Thanks
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 03, 2011, 01:37:05 pm
Tom,
Easy to miss. Go down to "Attachments and other options" below will be "Attach" and right below that the clickable "Choose File". You have gotten that far. Now in SMALL blue letters right below "Choose File" is a clickable "(more attachments)". Click on this and away you go for another photo (file) and then keep repeating this.
This is the way my page appears on a Mac with Safari.
Lifter looks terrible. Big time failure!
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on September 03, 2011, 01:43:34 pm
Lifter looks like it had some kind of compression damage, roller stopped rotating, cam then contacted it on one spot until it wore down and then failed completely. Would also explain why loose valve clearances at rocker arm. Clearance would increase as roller wore down.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Tom Endres on September 03, 2011, 02:08:54 pm
Thanks Pierce. Here are the other two pictures.
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Keith and Joyce on September 08, 2011, 01:54:01 pm
Called Coach-Net.
Towing is defined as unlimited mileage to nearest qualified repair facility. Dispatch say that they maintain a database of such facilities and constantly update it. In the case of a Cummings engine problem a Cummings certified shop would be the place they would take you. They will offer dispatch of a tow to non members but you will pay the tow. No you cannot join at the time of breakdown!
Been a member for two years and never had to call them.
Keith
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Jim Frerichs on September 08, 2011, 02:21:04 pm
Quote
Called Coach-Net. Towing is defined as unlimited mileage to nearest qualified repair facility. Dispatch say that they maintain a database of such facilities and constantly update it. In the case of a Cummings engine problem a Cummings certified shop would be the place they would take you. They will offer dispatch of a tow to non members but you will pay the tow. No you cannot join at the time of breakdown!
Been a member for two years and never had to call them.
Keith
Hi Keith, I wonder what Coach-Net says about body/crash repairs we might want to be made at he factory or Xtreme? Are they willing to tow it to NAC when you make such a request? Most insurance companies probably would say to the nearest place that does fiberglass repair. Ugg!
Title: Re: Trouble in MI. and then again in SD.
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on September 08, 2011, 04:33:07 pm
All, At the time I had an occurrence with my 85 ORED one of the considerations in settling the claim was what constituted a qualified shop that could do ALL the repairs, after much discussion with the insurance carrier we agreed that only the factory could do the repairs and THEN carrier calculated the movement of the coach on a Landoll Carrier of about 900 miles. At that point we agreed on a total loss amount. If I recall the tow cost was $2 a mile one way totaling 1800 miles round trip. Made quite a difference in calculating the loss. FWIW All carriers and claims adjusters might not be amenable to calculating the loss in thismanner. Gary B