A friend on the way to trade at MOT lost all dash electronics and throttle seven miles out of Nacogdoches, leaving him dead beside the road. MOT said it probably a solenoid, they brought one out, replaced behind a big panel by the door, no cost and my friend now owns a 1999 U320. I mentioned this to my expert friend Don Hay and he related it is good to carry a spare solenoid but that Mr. Wolfe had told him some time ago of an electronic switch as an alternative to the solenoid. I searched the Forum for solenoid information and found a reference in 2008 by Greg to a larger solenoid option and to replace every three years to avoid breakdown. I hope Don Hay will add to this....I am just trying to open this topic to perhaps help some new owners that did not know of such a potential problem and possible fixes (carry a spare, change to the switch, a higher amp design??). Thanks for your time and advice as you may have. If it is a switch, where to get those? If a larger solenoid, size? To install on the road, just turn off the key, change wires...or much more?! Sorry to ask you to review an old topic but I learned a lesson yesterday - solenoids can leave you stranded! Best to plan ahead. And thanks again Don Hay. Mike
Is this solenoid common to all models or just U320s or certain years? If applicable to all then it would be nice to have a listing - or at least a source - so we can order the spare.
Craig
Mike, A work around is to jump the terminals of the solenoid to get started. Sometimes a good sharp smack with a screwdriver handle will work. I BELIEVE that most if not all FT's have THREE solenoids, one in front of passenger in main circuit board area, and TWO in rear near the Isolator. Catch up with any of us somewhere and we will be glad to show you these, they are a vital part of the coach. AND ( in jest ) when all else fails read the instructions, Meaning the wiring digrams. :)
Gary B
Clarification needed - dash solenoid issues (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=12834.msg68411#msg68411)
Craig,
There are two ways to go: For less than $40 you can get a Cole-Hersee 200 amp, continuous-service, 4 pole solenoid (part no. V30-24143) that could last a few years or it may last only a year or so. I installed two and each lasted about 1 - 1 1/2 years. I finally went with an electronic switch (Blue Seas Solenoid Switch, L-Series, PN 9012) that Brett Wolfe recommended, and I have had no issues with it. However, it costs quite abit more: $160. Here is the link to it:
Solenoid Switch L-Series 12-24V - PN 9012 - Blue Sea Systems (http://bluesea.com/category/1/products/9012). It is guaranteed for more than 1 million cycles (on/off switches). Both of these will work on GrandVillas and on UniCoaches.
I haven't had a problem since putting it in.
After having two of the standard ignition solenoids fail within a 2 year period, I installed the Bluesea 9012 250-amp ignition solenoid.
That was a little over 10 years ago-- no issues since.
Brett
This seems to be a good replacement for the ignition solenoid. There are only two poles and the ignition solenoid I have has 4 poles. How is this substitute wired?
The Bluesea would be the best solution but for those that don't want to shell out $160, the less expensive Cole-Hersee 24213 is a good alternative. Note: the original equipment 24143 has been replaced . See the Cole-Hersee web site for the new part number: Solenoids & Relays24143 | Cole Hersee - Littelfuse (http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/167/24143/) . The new 24213 has superior silver tungsten carbide contacts so it should last longer.
And like Gary said, a good smack with a screwdriver or small hammer will often get it going again.
Price is up to about $54 or so now. Since there are several used on our Foretravels, good idea to carry a spare.
Is this relay in all the coach model years or is it a GV style issue?
Peter,
It installs just like the other solenoids-- two large lugs, ground lug and "activation/positive" lug.
The difference is that this is a 1 MILLION cycle switch with 450 amps continuous rating, To me, overkill beats the heck out of being stranded on the side of the road, and that is what happens if the ignition solenoid fails.
John,
To my knowledge, 100% of the coaches use one. Let's look at "what it does for a living":
There are a lot of 12 VDC items that only work with the ignition on. Some large amp draws like the dash HVAC fan. It also includes come critical items, such as the Allison ECM. WAY too many amps to run that through an ignition switch. So, the ignition switch is just used as the "signal" to close a relay/solenoid to power all those circuits. The more things that only work with the ignition on, the more amps this solenoid works with. This is a very good idea, but the reality is that the OE solenoids DO fail. The upgraded/expensive switch is a permanent solution (at least, I have never heard of one that has failed). Can you stick with a "regular" constant duty solenoid-- of course. But they clearly are not rated for the kind of use the Bluesea electronic switch is rated for.
BTW, I was introduced to Bluesea on electrical equipment for our sailboat-- kind of a bummer of the electrical system fails hundreds of miles off-shore.
Brett
Thanks Brett, I thought it might be the same but was not sure. I might upgrade mine one day here. I used to tinker with a sailboat too. Did a bunch of off shore stuff and yes I have come in under sail alone a few times. Learned to sail backwards once too by holding the main out at a broad reach with an oncoming wind. Got out of the slip pretty slick and then sailed out of the harbor. I used to teach sailing for a while then taught docking and would ask the students how to get in and out with out an engine... never figured I would really need it.
Yup, I learned to sail at Culver Military Academy. Three summers of sailing with not one of the boats having auxiliary power. So, indeed you learn to sail in "IRONS" ("backwards" for non sailors) as well as forward. Been there, done that.
But, offshore on our many sailboat trips from Texas to the Bahamas, loosing 12 VDC with just the two of us onboard would be a MAJOR pain in the backside, as that would mean no depth meter, no GPS, not nav lights, no autopilot, etc. Hand-steering for 48 hours straight is not for me.
Brett
I carry a Tyco Kilovac ev200 sires relay as a spare.
I have felt your pain. No GPS and no depth finder and no autopilot too. Oh well, that is life on a boat at times. It makes you appreciate it when you have it all working right. I had my boat in Annapolis and used to race the weekly races as well as the long races to Block Island and Bermuda and others too. I think I will go out and get a spare solenoids to carry tomorrow.
Thanks for the part numbers. I'm going to get a spare, at the very least.
Our sailboat, which we built from a hull-and-deck kit, was set up for world cruising with no power necessary. It was 1980 to 1985 so GPS (as we all know it today) was nonexistent. I had (and still have) a good Tamaya sextant with HO249 and 4 nautical almanacs (they can be re-used). We later installed solar panels and built a wind generator but the boat was fully seaworthy with zero DC power (kerosine lights and a wind-vane self steering system). Having power definitely made life easier (and safer with ham radio).
As it turned out, five years with no real power issues. I should have never come back. :P
Craig
K7EXJ
Brett,
Thanks, I suppose I was looking at their web site's picture the wrong way. I somehow only saw 2 poles vs the 4 poles the solenoid has.
Brett,
Very small world. What years did you go to CMA, likely around the 60's? When I lived in Plymouth, IN (1979 - 1986) I used to play golf at their 9 hole golf course. George Steinbrenner's son attended there between 1979 and 1983 (or so, I believe).
My most sincere thanks to each for your help. I think I know the way we will go, the $160 fix sounds like money well spent and not so much compared to other expenses. And I enjoyed the sailing dialogue. Interesting. Thanks again. Mike
Graduated Culver Summer School (Sailing) 1966. Graduated Culver Winter School 1967.
Brett
Peter,
I had the very same concern. It is their picture that doesn't show the two smaller poles. I asked Brett in private email whether it (BlueSea) actually had the additional two (ignition post and ground post). He reassured me and once it came in the mail, sure enough it has 4 poles, 2 large lugs, 2 smaller ones. The large lugs are a bit longer, so it is a little easier to get all the wire terminals on each lug and get the nut to "take" or grab the threads than it is on the Cole-Hersee.
My U-225 main keyed solenoid failed last month, it had been giving me warnings for the last couple of trips. In our case I was seeing the voltage meter on the dash go to 0, and then come back on to normal. We lost function of dash instruments, and AC controls, and airhorn, and HWH jack system.
I now have a new one installed, but plan to carry a spare or do as Brett suggested, and upgrade to a Bluesea unit.
I installed a Bluesea unit last fall. Might have been overkill, but who knows.
In recent follow-up with MOT on a 2001 being made ready for us, I asked should I purchase an extra key solenoid or the electric switch, etc. and that I wanted to see how to install the device (I would guess turn off the key and get out the pliers). I heard MOT to say that due to my concern, they checked the solenoid and it had already been replaced under a FOT recall. If I understood correctly, two devices now replace the one that was original and recalled. Perhaps those of you more familiar with this can shed light on that. Otherwise I can run over to FOT tomorrow and get my facts together (it would not be MOT that would be incorrect, just me being too happy to hear it was all okay rather than trying to study it!). I hope this helps. Mike
Mike,
Yes, dividing the load carried by the OE ignition solenoid onto two solenoids lessens the chance of failure. As does replacing with a better/electronic switch.
And to replace it, disconnect chassis battery positive, as that supplies one of the large lugs on the solenoid and touching a wrench from that to any metal would cause a direct short. Then, a simple matter to mark each wire (easy to put a piece of tape with #1, #2, #3 and if a separate small ground lug #4), remove from old solenoid and install on the new one. Very simple. Nothing particularly unique about these constant duty solenoids-- they are available at most places that service things like fork lifts.
Brett and Others, I am all in favor of marking battery leads whenever you disconnect them for any reason, I am also lazy.
I found some short tie wraps ( wire ties ) in various colors, I put red ones on the cables at the batteries that are positive and yellow or black on the grounds. They are almost permanent. Reminds me of some olds cars I have had, very simply postive cable was red and ground black. Seems like a simple engeering fix don't it. :)
Gary B
THANKS....great idea about the colored ties. I just got back from visiting technical folks at MOT to ask about the option solenoids. Keith Risch, and Keith Davis, told me it fine for anyone to call them if need more direct information and they could install or ship the parts (800-651-1112) if you do not find what you want elsewhere. Per Mr. Risch, when FT went to higher electric draws, as with adding Aqua Hots, it created more likelihod of a problem. So FOT came up with a warrant fix (now expired) and a pre-wired system fix to install. MOT has that, and I am sure FOT does too. I hope that helps. Mike
Happy New Year all! I've been reading, with interest, about the solenoids. I cannot locate one in the dash area and I only see one in the back under the bed. I would appreciate some help on locating the other two solenoids. Have not had a problem but I don't want one either. I sure would be out of luck if I didn't know where they were. Thanks.
Richard Anderson
1999 U320 40'
I hope one of the more technical folks will quickly help you, but when we were out beside the road, Keith Risch of MOT took a panel off right inside the door of a 1997. When you go up the steps, before you get to the steering wheel, there was a panel that came off and there were many electrical "parts" there. I did not watch what Mr. Risch do as I stayed outside, out of his way. I hope Mr. Wolf weighs in, gives you help, Otherwise tomorrow I will go out to MOT and take some photos for you. Let me know if you need me to do that, Mike
Thanks, Mike, I appreciate the help.
Richard Anderson
1999 U320 40' Build 5586
Outstanding Alumni who preceded you:
C. Lyle Cummins, Jr. '46
Internal Fire (1976) *
Diesel's Engine (1993) *
The Diesel Odyssey of Clessie Cummins (1998) *
Diesels for the First Stealth Weapon: Submarine Power 1902-1945 (2007)*
Richard, I did confirm that they are behind the panel so you can check there.....right to the right of the door as you go up the steps into the coach. Photos Friday for you. Mike
Thanks, Mike, I'm looking forward to the photos.
Richard Anderson
1999 U320 40', build 5586
Here's one...
The solenoid should be at the bottom, behind the black hose. Be forewarned, the screws that mount it to the board are hard to get to, at least were on mine. There's a frame in front of them.
Good Morning, I appreciate the information and the picture. I still cannot find a solenoid in the dash area. Decided to look at the electrical schematic even though my knowledge of this type of thing is small. The only solenoid that I can find is the boost solenoid located on the isolator board under the bed. The drawing does not have any other solenoid appearing figure on the whole schematic. Could it be that this year Foretravel had only one solenoid and used some other wiring to do the same thing? I have searched the dash under, over and from the front and no solenoid. Any ideas? Thanks.
Richard Anderson
1999 U 320, 40' build 5586
Good morning, again,
I called MOT and asked where the solenoids were. My coach has TWO Bosch solenoids on the bottom of the board just inside the entry door. Mike said he had not seen any problems with this arrangement. Foretravel evidently had problems with the solenoids back then and the Bosch solenoids were the change that they made. Thanks to everyone for the help.
Richard Anderson
1999 U320, 40',build 5586
Points for and thanks again to FOT for their continued support with tech issues, by phone for us "older" coach owners.
Richard, I hope this is how to post the photos! I went to MOT and my wife took these inside our coach that is being prepared for delivery to us. This panel is immediately below the handle that assists you getting in the coach, just as you get up the steps into the coach. The two black boxes you hope to see, that replaced the solenoid, are shown with pencils pointing the way. Since I have not however figured out how to post the photos, I will email them separately to you. Then as I figure out how to post them, I will do so....I need to go read how to do that. Call me too if that would help. Mike
Hi Mike,
Check the Help section for instructions on uploading photos
How to Add Images to your Posts (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=9476.msg44484#msg44484)
Create a Photo Album & upload photos on Foreforums (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=11334.0)
Hope the photos come through as attachment. Open panel plus one with pencils pointing to the two Bosch devices that replaced the usual solenoid. So if you have this, you are better off. If you do not, then you may want to consider. MOT has them and I am sure others do as well. mike
Well okie dokie....thanks to Barry Beam, I got the photos in! I had searched the site for how to do this, I guess did not asked the right question and he got me on track with this, as he has with quite a few other items. Patience with the Newbies thankfully is a virtue. Five people have already called to order these things so maybe this has helped. Have a beautiful weekend, Mike
Mike, The pictures came on fine. Thanks again for your help. I learn something new every day and I am certainly glad I now know where the solenoids are.
Have a great evening.
Richard Anderson
1999 U320, 40', build 5586
Hi Mike,
I hear the factory upgrade, to the solenoid problem, is bullet proof. Are the solenoids made in plastic cases? Your set up looks like a pair of relays.
Raymond
Sorry late replying, but will get by MOT late tomorrow (Monday) morning and check if plastic, etc. Keith Risch, who was a popular mechanic at FOT and moved to MOT, told me these came with "pig tails" ready to connect in place. But I did not hear that they are identical to what FOT used for recall or warranty work. My wife, who took the photos while I was talking to the mechanics, said that they look like a hard plastic. They are a dull black. But I will check tomorrow, get a reply back to you before LSU takes a loss from the Tide. Mike
Wouldn't just installing a second solenoid in parallel fix any future problem?
Well, it would certainly reduce the load on each and would therefore reduce potential problems due to high % of capacity load (assuming the two were the same amperage as the original).
A higher quality/higher amp rated relay/solenoid would be the other alternative that a lot of us have taken.
Brett
For Raymond, we went out to check at MOT and the cases are plastic. I hope that helps but if you need more info, then shoot me an email and I will run down an answer for you. Mike
Brett Said "A higher quality/higher amp rated relay/solenoid would be the other alternative that a lot of us have taken."
My problem with that is I just bought and installed the standard one, but I did buy a second one so just a matter of making up the jumper wires and finding a place to mount it.
If you do that, an ammeter to do a reasonable job of splitting the loads (i.e. moving some wires to the new solenoid to balance what the OE and new solenoid handle) would be a good idea. Yes the "control"/hot and ground (small lugs) wiring would be simple.