Title: Loss of power
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 04, 2012, 03:56:27 pm
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 04, 2012, 03:56:27 pm
We were travelling down interstate 5 this morning and suddenly I lost power, the max. I could go was 55 mph. We have a 450hp cummins engine. I've talked to a few people and they seem to think its a turbo problem. However Brett suggested if that was the problem you would probably have a cloud of black smoke come out of the exhaust, and that didn't happened. All the hoses seem to e fine and all hooked up. We may have to stay here, outside of Seattle until Monday and take it to a Cummins dealer. Anybody experience a similiar problem?
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 04, 2012, 04:38:16 pm
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 04, 2012, 04:38:16 pm
Update, spoke to Cummins they think the engine went into limp mode?? Something to do with the computer, that figures, so we're going to get out on the highway and cross our fingers.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on February 04, 2012, 05:32:52 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on February 04, 2012, 05:32:52 pm
Jimmy.
Sorry to hear about the loss of power. I wonder if you have the VMSpc setup, it might give you a clue.
I would expect to see the "Check Engine Light" on dash to come on.
Also, a computerized engine senses many areas of the engine for issues.
1-High Temp
2-Low Oil Pressure
3-Fuel issue, clogged filtering system
These are some of the normal things that could cause the loss of power on a non EGR engine.
Of course with the computer, the the term "Anyting can happen" is fairly true.
I would disconnect the ground cable from the engine batteries for about 5 minutes, reconnect and see what you get.
Hope you will tell us when you get it all fixed up as to the issue that got you.
Good luck
Dave M
Sorry to hear about the loss of power. I wonder if you have the VMSpc setup, it might give you a clue.
I would expect to see the "Check Engine Light" on dash to come on.
Also, a computerized engine senses many areas of the engine for issues.
1-High Temp
2-Low Oil Pressure
3-Fuel issue, clogged filtering system
These are some of the normal things that could cause the loss of power on a non EGR engine.
Of course with the computer, the the term "Anyting can happen" is fairly true.
I would disconnect the ground cable from the engine batteries for about 5 minutes, reconnect and see what you get.
Hope you will tell us when you get it all fixed up as to the issue that got you.
Good luck
Dave M
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: red tractor on February 04, 2012, 05:50:40 pm
Post by: red tractor on February 04, 2012, 05:50:40 pm
It could be a bad fuel filter or if you have the racor system could be leaking o rings on the clear filter
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 04, 2012, 09:42:33 pm
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 04, 2012, 09:42:33 pm
Thanks for the information. We limped into a campsite this evening, will try the battery cable disconnect tomorrow, my nerves aren't very good right now. I may have to attempt trying to get to Olympia Wa. on Monday. Not sure if an RV dealer or Freightliner is the best bet. I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: wolfe10 on February 04, 2012, 09:52:36 pm
Post by: wolfe10 on February 04, 2012, 09:52:36 pm
First choice would be a Cummins dealer, second choice a dealer who works on OTR trucks, LAST CHOICE an RV dealer.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Michelle on February 04, 2012, 09:57:16 pm
Post by: Michelle on February 04, 2012, 09:57:16 pm
Not sure if an RV dealer or Freightliner is the best bet.
Look for a Cummins certified service center, not an RV dealer. An RV dealer won't be able to do much with an engine or transmission issue.
Here's the Cummins service locator
Worldwide Service Locator (http://wsl.cummins.com/ServiceLocator/jsp/controller.jsp?action=changeapplication)
Cummins Northwest in Chehalis is closest when I do a search for Olympia, Washington and RV:
Worldwide Service Locator (http://wsl.cummins.com/ServiceLocator/jsp/controller.jsp?action=serviceCentreDetails&dealerseqid=22929)
CUMMINS NORTHWEST, LLC
173 Hamilton Rd
CHEHALIS Washington 98532-1813
United States
Tel: (360) 748-8841
they also have a Portland, Oregon location Worldwide Service Locator (http://wsl.cummins.com/ServiceLocator/jsp/controller.jsp?action=serviceCentreDetails&dealerseqid=21331) and a Renton (looks like closer to Seattle) location as well Worldwide Service Locator (http://wsl.cummins.com/ServiceLocator/jsp/controller.jsp?action=serviceCentreDetails&dealerseqid=21390)
(I know the text for each looks like "Worldwide Service Locator", but each is actually a different link)
Michelle
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 04, 2012, 10:29:09 pm
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 04, 2012, 10:29:09 pm
I spoke to the Renton Wa. Cummins 24/7 tech, he thinks its an coach electrical or transmission problem. He said if the engine warning light isn't coming on its not the engine. This last time, before we made it to the campground, the engine light came on and motor stalled, at a stop sign. Started it again, top speed 20 mph and falling. Not good.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Don Hay on February 04, 2012, 10:42:42 pm
Post by: Don Hay on February 04, 2012, 10:42:42 pm
Just a guess, but it sure sounds like a plugged fuel filter. Have you got a spare fuel filter with you that you could put in at the campground? The primary is not that difficult to change out, but the new one should be pre-filled with diesel if at all possible. It will reduce the amount of purging needed. You could at least eliminate that possibility (i.e., plugged filter) before shops open on Monday.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on February 04, 2012, 10:44:08 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on February 04, 2012, 10:44:08 pm
If you carry a spare fuel filter, now would be a great time to put it on. With the light not coming on, would also lead me to think a fuel starvation issue.
Relax and get some sleep.
Relax and get some sleep.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 04, 2012, 10:53:29 pm
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 04, 2012, 10:53:29 pm
There is a guy who comes to the campground to work on RV's, I'll call him tomorrow and see if he has a fuel filter, worth a try.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Carol Savournin on February 04, 2012, 11:16:03 pm
Post by: Carol Savournin on February 04, 2012, 11:16:03 pm
<www.nttsbreakdown.com> is a website that lists service providers in any area ... diesel, gas, truck, auto, etc. It has been helpful to us in the past. You don't seem to be having a problem finding service providers, but in the future it may come in handy. Our loss of power issue on this '02 U320 with a 450 Cummins ISM engine came from a failure of the internal fuel assist pump that is tied to the Winn 20/20 fuel filter. This is a sort of clear "glass" filter on the back of the engine that is a primary filter. The little black box(which is what failed) at the top of the engine area with buttons for "purge" and "something else" (I forget) provides the power for the fuel assist pump. When the pump gets no juice, the vacuum on the fuel line is not enough to feed the engine. (I don't speak mechanic ... this is all just me parroting what I remember from our repair.) The "fix" was to remove the whole armature holding the Winn 20/20 + fuel assist pump + little black box and replace it with a simple armature and a regular, water separating fuel filter. Bingo. Problem solved. This procedure is per the Cummins procedure manual, as the whole Winn 20/20 thing apparently is not such a great invention. The fix was very easy ... diagnosing was time consuming and therefore expensive. Hope you have great luck and an easy fix! I am betting it is a simple thing and a good truck mechanic is gonna set you right in short order.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: niagarachip on February 05, 2012, 09:35:01 am
Post by: niagarachip on February 05, 2012, 09:35:01 am
Just adding some text to push the phone number out of the view of guests. They can see the first line of a post.
Michelle
I had a similar problem with my M.H. Call me at 703-675-7090. I am in the R.G.V , will try to make a very long story short.
Rene.
Michelle
I had a similar problem with my M.H. Call me at 703-675-7090. I am in the R.G.V , will try to make a very long story short.
Rene.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 05, 2012, 11:34:18 am
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 05, 2012, 11:34:18 am
One more thing I should mention. The engine runs fine for about 40 miles then suddenly the it starts to loose power and gets worse the farther I go.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Kent Speers on February 05, 2012, 12:52:56 pm
Post by: Kent Speers on February 05, 2012, 12:52:56 pm
Sure sounds like fuel problem, not electrical. Don't forget to check the Racor filter if you have one. They can be a hidden problem. You might PM Jeff Savournin and get his story on his 2002, U320.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: jeff on February 05, 2012, 01:25:14 pm
Post by: jeff on February 05, 2012, 01:25:14 pm
Just adding some text to push the phone number out of the view of guests. They can see the first line of a post.
Michelle
see Carol's post. If we can answer question give us a call. 610-212-9947.
Have invoice with part numbers if you find that is the problem. Easy fix.
Michelle
see Carol's post. If we can answer question give us a call. 610-212-9947.
Have invoice with part numbers if you find that is the problem. Easy fix.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 05, 2012, 10:17:27 pm
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 05, 2012, 10:17:27 pm
Thanks a ton to Carol Savournin for the advice regarding our problem. We're 5 miles away from the Cummins dealer, going to start with Winn 20/20 as the cause to our problem. I'd like to thank everyone for their thoughts, its reassuring to know we can count on the help of fellow Foretravel owners. I'll let you know on the results.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Eric Rudolph on February 06, 2012, 08:58:28 am
Post by: Eric Rudolph on February 06, 2012, 08:58:28 am
Take a look at the glass enclosed screen type fuel filter which is above the engine batteries. It should be fairly clear. If black that could cause low fuel flow and fuel starvation. This can be caused by algae in fuel.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Carol Savournin on February 06, 2012, 10:48:24 am
Post by: Carol Savournin on February 06, 2012, 10:48:24 am
This kind of thread is exactly why we relied on this Forum when we were just beginning and need to start our "breakdown education". Since my husband is very hard of hearing, I have had to sit in on most conversations with mechanics to make sure that we got the details. Interesting stuff ... I really admire these guys who understand the workings of a complicated engine so thoroughly. I have learned that you always start with the easy stuff ... in this case bad fuel or clogged filters. Then we moved on to electrical connections and computer diagnostics. Then vacuum pressure in the fuel line and he went from there. My wish is that you get a mechanic and not a "parts changer" when you land in your repair facility. I innocently spend as much time as they will allow looking over their shoulders, and exclaim,"Oh, we SO appreciate any education we can get from experts like you!" I figure that if I feed their egos a bit, they will help me learn. So far, it has worked fairly well.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 06, 2012, 08:31:53 pm
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 06, 2012, 08:31:53 pm
Problem solved... as usual, start with the simplest thing. Plugged/dirty fuel filter. The service writer, Trevor Vlach, at the Cummins shop in Chehalis figured it out as soon as I told him the symptoms. He got a tech on it right away. They showed me what was in the filter, lots of junk!
We're relieved and on our way to California. I really appreciate all the help we received from everyone. By the way we purchased a spare filter, you never know.
We're relieved and on our way to California. I really appreciate all the help we received from everyone. By the way we purchased a spare filter, you never know.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: David Bethard on February 06, 2012, 09:32:50 pm
Post by: David Bethard on February 06, 2012, 09:32:50 pm
Don't be surprised it it happens again. Sounds like you got a bad tank of fuel and it may take a while for it to clean up.
I had a similar problem with a 95 M11. The Racor units are solid except for the black box that with the buttons. That's a solid state controller that runs the pump on demand. Pump only runs when purging air or water from the system otherwise the Racor's just a passive filter. It's obsolete and parts are not available. Fuel pressure is supplied buy a mechanical pump driven off the end of the air compressor.
You should always cary a spare set of filters. The clear filter is the hardest to find. The others are readily available. Getting stuck on the side of the road is a real bad deal.
There are 3 fuel filters and all should be replaced on a regular schedule. First filter is the Racor with a clear filter to trap large trash, second is the canister filter on the Racor, third is located on the right side of the engine and can only be accessed from under the coach. Changing the filters is very easy if the Racor system is working since it automatically purges air from the fuel system. Diesel engines will not run with air in the fuel lines.
I had a similar problem with a 95 M11. The Racor units are solid except for the black box that with the buttons. That's a solid state controller that runs the pump on demand. Pump only runs when purging air or water from the system otherwise the Racor's just a passive filter. It's obsolete and parts are not available. Fuel pressure is supplied buy a mechanical pump driven off the end of the air compressor.
You should always cary a spare set of filters. The clear filter is the hardest to find. The others are readily available. Getting stuck on the side of the road is a real bad deal.
There are 3 fuel filters and all should be replaced on a regular schedule. First filter is the Racor with a clear filter to trap large trash, second is the canister filter on the Racor, third is located on the right side of the engine and can only be accessed from under the coach. Changing the filters is very easy if the Racor system is working since it automatically purges air from the fuel system. Diesel engines will not run with air in the fuel lines.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 06, 2012, 09:56:51 pm
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 06, 2012, 09:56:51 pm
Do you need the Racor anyway. Sounds like a source of problems.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Michelle on February 06, 2012, 10:00:34 pm
Post by: Michelle on February 06, 2012, 10:00:34 pm
Our loss of power issue on this '02 U320 with a 450 Cummins ISM engine came from a failure of the internal fuel assist pump that is tied to the Winn 20/20 fuel filter.
The "fix" was to remove the whole armature holding the Winn 20/20 + fuel assist pump + little black box and replace it with a simple armature and a regular, water separating fuel filter. Bingo. Problem solved. This procedure is per the Cummins procedure manual, as the whole Winn 20/20 thing apparently is not such a great invention. The fix was very easy ... diagnosing was time consuming and therefore expensive.
Here are the photos we took this summer showing Carol and Jeff's post-surgery system and our original Winn 2020 for comparison.
As I recall, Hal Burns in Santa Fe Hal Burns Truck and Equipment - Santa Fe (http://halburns.com/) was the shop that did the retrofit for the Savournins. (They were also a handy shop for a short length of air line and a couple of fittings we needed ^.^d
Michelle
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Carol Savournin on February 07, 2012, 08:14:07 am
Post by: Carol Savournin on February 07, 2012, 08:14:07 am
Yup ... Hal Burns Truck & Equip in Santa Fe was the spot. They we're great, and that is lucky, because we have been told that they are about the ONLY good diesel mechanic in that part of NM. You DO NOT need the "glass" filter. My recollection is that the mechanic told us something about a "fuel heater" being part of that whole gizmo, and that unless you were an "ice road trucker" in Canada, it was not going to be something we would miss. I don't know enough about the system to say what a fuel heater is ... I just listen and "parrot" information and then figure it out later. What I do know is that we had been chugging and coughing down the road and blowing black smoke like something out of a cartoon. After the fix, Jeff took it for a test drive and came back grinning like an idiot ... "I'm gonna have to be careful.", he said,"We might get a ticket!" "WHat do you mean WE?", was my reply.
SO glad you are back on the road! Safe travels!!
SO glad you are back on the road! Safe travels!!
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Claire on February 07, 2012, 07:41:58 pm
Post by: Claire on February 07, 2012, 07:41:58 pm
After having read about the clogged filters, and the possibility of algae in the fuel...I have a question.
We have treated our tank with an algeacide, however whenever we run the tank down to about 1/4 full, our filters get clogged with dark/black debris. Does the algae leave a residue, and if so is there any way to get rid of the scum that may be in the bottom of the tank. The bad fuel affects the filters on the Aqua hot as well, and eventhough it was just serviced, leaving some black smoke residue. Also any recomendation as to the best algaecide to use.?
We have treated our tank with an algeacide, however whenever we run the tank down to about 1/4 full, our filters get clogged with dark/black debris. Does the algae leave a residue, and if so is there any way to get rid of the scum that may be in the bottom of the tank. The bad fuel affects the filters on the Aqua hot as well, and eventhough it was just serviced, leaving some black smoke residue. Also any recomendation as to the best algaecide to use.?
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 07, 2012, 08:31:03 pm
Post by: Greg and Viv on February 07, 2012, 08:31:03 pm
Anyone know any GOOD mechanics in California that can get rid of the win 2020? That's where we're heading. We want to get that out of here before it becomes an issue, great pictures, I'm saving to show the mechanic how's its done properly. New issue today...
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Barry Beam on February 07, 2012, 08:42:41 pm
Post by: Barry Beam on February 07, 2012, 08:42:41 pm
Anyone know any GOOD mechanics in California that can get rid of the win 2020? That's where we're heading. We want to get that out of here before it becomes an issue, great pictures, I'm saving to show the mechanic how's its done properly. New issue today...
Where abouts in Calif are you headed and when. I might know someone. I just got a name for someone in Lake Havisu working for Newell and headed after toward Calif.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: amos.harrison on February 07, 2012, 09:38:31 pm
Post by: amos.harrison on February 07, 2012, 09:38:31 pm
Skylane,
Algeacide kills the bugs but doesn't do anything about the black scum. Marinas can refer you to mobile fuel finishing outfits that will pump your fuel out, clean it and pump it back in. The other option is to have a truck repair shop pump out your fuel and dispose of it.
Algeacide kills the bugs but doesn't do anything about the black scum. Marinas can refer you to mobile fuel finishing outfits that will pump your fuel out, clean it and pump it back in. The other option is to have a truck repair shop pump out your fuel and dispose of it.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: amos.harrison on February 07, 2012, 09:41:23 pm
Post by: amos.harrison on February 07, 2012, 09:41:23 pm
FT sells a Racor replacement for the Winn system that provides the original air and water purge functionality as the original. FT parts can provide a part number if you want to source it yourself. I had them do it. I can look up the details if you need them.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Michelle on February 07, 2012, 09:54:47 pm
Post by: Michelle on February 07, 2012, 09:54:47 pm
FT sells a Racor replacement for the Winn system that provides the original air and water purge functionality as the original. FT parts can provide a part number if you want to source it yourself. I had them do it. I can look up the details if you need them.
Does this thread help? Filters with a priming pump (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=9718.msg43471#msg43471)
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Carol Savournin on February 07, 2012, 11:06:16 pm
Post by: Carol Savournin on February 07, 2012, 11:06:16 pm
After having read about the clogged filters, and the possibility of algae in the fuel...I have a question.
We have treated our tank with an algeacide, however whenever we run the tank down to about 1/4 full, our filters get clogged with dark/black debris. Does the algae leave a residue, and if so is there any way to get rid of the scum that may be in the bottom of the tank. The bad fuel affects the filters on the Aqua hot as well, and eventhough it was just serviced, leaving some black smoke residue. Also any recomendation as to the best algaecide to use.?
In areas that have a lot of Marinas and boating (this info is from Keith Elms) there are companies who perform "fuel scrubbing" ... they suck the fuel from the tanks where it may have gelled or become contaminated with gunk, filter the crap out, and then give you back the clean fuel. Apparently this is a common problem in marine fuel tanks.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Claire on February 08, 2012, 11:05:58 am
Post by: Claire on February 08, 2012, 11:05:58 am
Thanks for the info, we live on the I-5 corridor in Southern Oregon, will call over to the coast and try and locate
a marina that can help.
a marina that can help.
Title: Re: Loss of power
Post by: Dave Cobb on February 08, 2012, 08:02:02 pm
Post by: Dave Cobb on February 08, 2012, 08:02:02 pm
Fuel polishing is done where ever the fuel tank is, usually by a company with portable wheeled systems that they roll out to the boats. They surely would come to your coach's location.