Hi All
Me again :-[
So nobody told us NOT to keep the black tank valve open whilst hooked up - so we did just that and after 30 days in one spot our black tank will not drain. From what I have read there is most likely a large solid mass at the bottom of the tank blocking the drain. Any suggestions on the best way to soften it up. I've read bleach or water softener. Would a LARGE dose Rid X work? or the black tank treatment stuff? Thanks again for all your help.
Christi
You did the correct thing by leaving your black tank valve SHUT. If you didn't keep it shut then all the paper would pile up under the toilet, dry up and then you would have a hard time getting rid of the stuff. Think "mountain."
Pull in your lines and take your RV for a short drive with a couple of turns involve. That should loosen things up. Dump when you 1st get back before you do anything else. Fill the tank up again and flush her a couple of times to get it clean.
1. Black tanks love water. It keeps things moving. I always add water.
2. Dump more often than 30 days. I've never gone longer than 5 or 6, but that's because my tank gauge didn't work. You can tell by the sound of the water if your tank is getting full. Listen carefully!
Cheers!
:facepalm: D'oh! :facepalm:
Some folk have recommended putting ice cubes or ice chunks down the toilet, then taking a drive with lots of jostling.
A back flush from the drain side might help as well. You can get a Valterra style cap with a garden hose fitting. There are also clear attachments/extensions with garden hose fittings that are designed for back flushing the tanks. Be sure to use a hose designated for waste use ONLY. Keep pressure from fresh water on it all the time and/or have a back flow prevention device to avoid contaminating a water source.
Best wishes for success. That's a ...... problem to encounter. ;)
Couple of things to try.
1. Tank cleaning wand. Valterra - Flexible Tank Wand - A01-0187VP - Drain & Flush Systems - Camping (http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/flexible-tank-wand/14497)
2. Also try this. RV Black and Gray Water Holding Tank Maintenance (http://www.newrver.com/holdingtank.html)
There are a series of videos on You Tube showing how to do most everything with a RV. If you don't see what you need on there just ask on the forum.
Keith
The problem is we did leave it open - we have tried a wand and hose from both ends. Really need something that will break up the solid mass.
You could try the ice-cubes trick. If you could be sure of getting them out I'd be tempted to try golf balls... and a parking lot with lots of speed bumps.
Craig
Hi Christie
When we first began fulltiming 3 years ago we had the same problem. We quickly discovered how to overcome this problem and have been trouble free since. I was able to dislodge the blockage by inserting a hose at the coach drain connection, sealing it off with some rags to reduce leakage, close the gray water valve and forced water back through the open black water tank valve. It took a couple of tries but it eventually broke free. If you are careful, you will have very little spillage. As for the position of the black and gray water valves, I have left them open and keep a water trap loop with the drain hose. This keeps any sewer gas from coming back into the tank. There are two things that will create problems with the black water tank. The first is use of 2 ply toilet paper/excessive amount of paper and failure to regularly flush the tank. I flush the black water tank weekly for 15 mins. and haven't had any issues with it since. The problem with fulltiming and keeping the valve closed is that you are forced to monitor the tank level to avoid overflow.
Bob and Faith
A bag or two of ice a bottle of dish washing machine soap and a drive over a bumpy road should clean it all out. The dish washing machine soap will have a water softener in it that will help a lot and you won't get your hands dirty. Gam
Fill the black tank 3/4 with water. Let it sit overnight to "hydrate".
Open drain. Lug a hose into the bathroom (the one you wash the coach with, not the potable water hose). Turn off pressure water/shore water. Open the toilet valve.
Turn the hose wide open and start flushing. If you have to feed any of the hose into the toilet itself, be sure to wash it with a strong Clorox solution.
I would dump some really HOT water in there and hope it softens some stuff, try the back flushing and then use a Rid-X product for a while to break down the solids. Ice seems like a good idea, but all it does is knock stuff off of the sides while it floats on the top of the water in the tank. JMHO. Once you get things flowing again, I will tell you that I have used a concoction of 1 Cup (yes ... a CUP) of Dawn PLUS 1 Cup of Liquid Calgon water softener to get rid of some serious gunk in a black tank. Liquid Calgon is a laundry product that may be hard to find now. You could probably substitute plain old washing soda dissolved in hot water to help do the trick. Just keep working at it ... you are certainly not the first to forget to close the black valve. Mr. Wonderful did that about 2 weeks ago and I was afraid we would have an issue. I just dumped a few dish pans of hot water down the commode to and added some powdered Rid-X. We were OK.
Has anyone ever heard of using a power washer with rotating nozzle to wash out a black tank? Good, bad, terrible idea? I'm tempted but would prefer to not be the trailblazer on this idea.
Chuck
Understand any back splash "stuff" will make you very sick. On my last trailers we used the 3' wand down the toilet hole with carefull aim, and positioning to flush the tank. Now with the Foretravel, tank flushers, and a clear viewing pipe in the drain hose we are always sure we have flushed the tanks clean.
I like the idea of filling with water to hydrate the solids, drive it around, and then try to drain again. I have always waited to dump the black tank till it is full, and when we have full hookups, encourage the use of several half to full bowl flushes. The problem always seems to be too little water added to the tank, too much paper is the next problem, along with the wrong type of paper.
If you have the low profile electric flush toilet be sure to disconnect the power source to the flush valve! Then open the tank lid that holds the flushing mechanism, and remove the arm that operates the flapper valve. This will allow the flapper to be held open or fall open while trying to put ice or any other object down the drain hole. The opening goes directly into the holding tank on my 1994 U300. I had the misfortune of breaking the gear that operates that flapper while trying to put ice into my holding tank :-( and it took me three weeks to get the parts and a lot of unnecessary work because I did not realize that the flapper is forced closed to hold a seal at the base of the toilet bowl... ^.^d
I have not purchased special "RV" toilet paper since the first 4-pack was used up 5 years ago. I now use Angel Soft, with very good results. Any "septic safe" paper will do ... and if it is double ply, I think you tend to use less. Someone here on the Forum did a scientific test a year or so ago ... half filling several jars with water, adding tissue, shake shake shake ... see what happens. They made a full report, I believe.
Why does this not even surprise me, after less than a year on the board, I know this forum is full of people with the time and inclination to always know more. What a great, but sometimes over the top group!!!!
We will take a tank with lots of liquid on a fun ride tomorrow - fingers crossed :o
Our 96 U295 doesn't have a built-in black tank rinser like some newer models. We never leave the valve open, and after I initially release the contents, I pour (just as fast as possible without making a mess) two 5 gal pails of fresh water directly down the toilet (my toilet sits directly over the black tank). That large rush of water always eliminates any solids hanging around, and forces any large wads of paper through the sewer hose. Just sayin'.
Having a "tank washer" installed is something that is not horribly expensive, and certainly gives one peace of mind. Failing that, the old bit of advice about pouring a cup or so of cheap cooking oil into the tank after it is clean and letting the oil settle all the way down to the bayonet valve (to lubricate the valve) also helps to keep stuff from sticking to the bottom of the tank. with my "home remedy" for using white vinegar to deodorize the black tank, and the vegetable oil for lubrication, it is starting to sound like more of a "salad recipe" than a mechanical thread! :)) :P ;D ^.^d
Just don't get the blank tank "dressing" and the salad "Dressing" mixed up!
:))
Once we get this cleared we will definitely be trying the oil trick.
The deal is ... go to the Dollar Store or Wallyworld or some such place and buy the absolute cheapest vegetable oil you can find. After you flush your tanks and let them thoroughly drain, pour a cup or so of oil down the shortest drain (shower?) and the commode, and then wait a bit to let it settle to the very lowest point right on the valve. Then, work each bayonet valve a couple of times, until you feel that it has been lubricated. We used to do this maybe every third time, and it surely made life easier. Cheap, too.
Christi, Welcome to the club, I would bet that everyone here has had the same problem even if they will not admit it. POOP management is one of those skills that everyone learns by experience, ( experience is the best teacher, that is why it costs so much ). My experience was with coach in which previous owners left valves open all the time, I spent a couple hours with the awning rod digging around in the PILE to loosen it up. I am not pleasant to be around in such situations.
My solution is to add a gallon of water at least via the tank flusher to keep everything floating.
BTW Absolute PANIC is when filling fresh tank on newly acquired coach and you see water RISING in the toilet WTF... tank flush and fresh water fill were mislabeled. Previous owner was already dead so I could not do anything about it.
Where else can you have so much fun ??
Gary B
Gary,
Here is where you can have more fun. Parked along the Keweenaw Waterway in Michigan's UP at seasons end with our old travel trailer. It's below freezing out and there is freezing fog. 4:30am DW wakes me up to tell me toilet is backing up. Go outside and pull black tank valve. No result. Wait until morning to find DW took my admonishment to save water (no Dear, it's only when boon-docking) and was not giving the toilet a hearty flush so the paper was blocking the pipe (offset tank). Real bear to fix. Next night woken up with "the toilet won't flush". Same weather conditions. Frozen hose? No turns out to be defective pressure regulator. The floodlit lift bridge sure looked picturesque in the distance though.
BTW if you are ever in that neck of the woods I can highly recommend the City of Houghton RV park. Book early though.
Keith
Hi, this is why I mounted a "TORNADO" tanks rinser on the side of Black tank, Once I week I fully flush and clean black tank. Took about 1/2 hour and cost about $25.
Well after adding softner and taking our black tank for a ride today - we hooked back up, opened the valve & NOTHING!!! Starting to think maybe the black valve is not functioning. How hard is this to get at on our '93? Can we get at the blade & open it manually once we remove the panels from the utility bay?
Christi,
Can you see the black drain valve or is yours buried behind a fiberglass cover? Do you feel resistance when you pull on the valve handle? The reason I ask this is to determine whether it is a straight shot from where the sewer hose couples to the Valtera (or Thetford) and to the black valve opening or is it a right angle? If you feel resistance when opening the black valve (the blade is probably moving), I suspect that the opening is plugged with a mass of dried solids and paper. In my '92 U-280, when I open the Thetford cover on the drain, it is a straight line into the black tank (the black valve blade is perpendicular to the ground, so I just lift the handle straight up). Therefore, if necessary, I could insert a steel rod gently but firmly into the base of the black tank. As someone else suggested, you could wrap the rod with rags to seal around it, minimizing the leakage once the blockage is removed. However, sooner or later, things are going to get messy. :-(
If the drain pipe is at right angles to the black tank valve I don't know how you would get something up into the base of the black tank to free up the blockage.
It is amazing to me that all manufacturers of RV's with black holding tanks don't put in BOLD LETTERS in their Instruction Manual : "DO NOT OPEN BLACK TANK VALVE UNTIL TANK IS AT LEAST 3/4'S FULL". Foretravel doesn't include anything like this, nor do many 5th wheel manufacturers. :-(
Good Luck,
I removed the fiberglass panel to do some work on my valves and faucet supply lines. If yours is the same as a 1994 U300 just remove the faucet assembly and the screws that hold the right 3/4 of the fascia panel, also the "T" handles unscrew & the panel should come out/off. My coach gives me access to both black & gray water valves.
Christi, I just picked up on this thread. I hope your problem is resolved but if not the following worked for me to release the Poop Block.
I presume your U280 is the same setup as our U300. You should be able to tell by feel if the gate valve for the black tank is working. If it is broken, it will be very easy to pull. If it is functional it will be fairly hard to pull. Our valve broke right in the Foretravel parking lot as we were leaving for OKC. They were able to fix it while we were there. Gerry has already described how to get to your gate valves.
If the valve is not broken, which I suspect, get a large pan to catch any spill from the dump pipe. With this method works there will still be a little spillage, IF YOU ARE LUCKY.
1. Fill the gray water tank as full as possible. You are going to use the gray water which has a larger tank to create back pressure to release the blockage from the bottom side.
2. Leave the dump end cap securely fastened with the black valve open.
3. Momentarily open the gray water tank and listen for a burp in the black tank. The larger gray tank should create enough back pressure to release the black tank blockage. Be very careful to not leave the gray valve open for more than a few seconds because if the blockage releases it could cause the black tank to overflow if toilet valve is not perfectly tight.
4. If you heard a back flow into the black tank, close the black tank valve and very carefully and slowly remove the pipe cap allowing the effluent in the pipe to run into your catch pan. It should be all gray water.
5. Attach your dump hose as usual and open the black valve. It should flow as normal.
If this doesn't work the first time.
1. With the dump cap on securely open the black valve then open the gray valve allowing the gray water to back flow up to the black tank blockage. Wait five minutes to allow any trapped air to work its way up through the blockage so that the gray water will be in contact with the blockage from the bottom side. We want it to soften the blockage. Then close the gray valve and leave this for several hours or over night. Hopefully all the gray water in the line to soften the blockage from the bottom.
2. Try step 3, 4, and 5 above.
Repeat this procedure until the blockage finally give way.
If you are careful and with a little luck you will not get any nasty surprises.
This might help. Attach one of these valves to the black tank outlet on the coach.
Amazon.com: Camco 39062 RV Dual Flush Pro Holding Tank Rinser with Gate Valve: (http://www.amazon.com/Camco-39062-Flush-Holding-Rinser/dp/B000BUQOAE)
If there is not enough room you can use one of these extension pieces. They are available in different lengths.
Valterra - Clearview 5" Sewer Adapter with Bayonet Lugs - T1021 - Sewer Fittings (http://www.campingworld.com/shopping/item/clearview-5-sewer-adapter-with-bayonet-lugs/22172)
Close valve. Remove the hose washout cap. Put clean out snake through the hose inlet (do not use a power snake). Open coach's tank valve. Use snake to break up blockage. When blockage releases you will only have a small opening to block which will greatly reduce spillage. Attach hose to outside valve and flush. Now you can try any of the previous tank cleaning recipes to finish the job. Many of us have fitted a third valve like this permanently so we can back flush the black tank with grey water as Kent described.
Keith
SUCCESS!!!!! ^.^d We tried back flushing the grey tank with no success - without a 3rd valve it is hard to get enough suction. We ended up removing the blade valve and running an auger up that way - that eliminated 1 of the 2 90 elbows there. After we got some movement that way we re-installed the blade valve and attached our longest drain hose. we then kept filling the hose with water until it would back all the way into the tank then hurry and drop the hose into the sewer hole and let suction take over. After about four or five times of doing this we were successful in moving the blockage and empty the tank.
This lesson should go at the top of any & every "newbie" thread!
Thank you all so much for your ideas, encouragement and general support!
I learned my RV plumbing & tank maintenance from a very good teacher, my father-in-law (RIP). We don't even rinse the coffee pot inside the RV. Coffee grounds can cause the dump valves to leak. And yes, always use plenty of water in the black tank and dump when full, if possible.
Peter
Christi, I think you are right, those various solutions need Newbie thread posting. Perhaps Barry will agree.
An RVer with years of experience taught us to keep a closable trash can by the commode. Paper goes in the can and the plastic liner bag of the can is discarded daily. I know some paper more than other is "digestible" in the black water tank, but we decided our friends might be right so have begun that way for now. If you have not seen the movie "RV" with Robin Williams, they showed me that and it was enough to worry me about the sewer system. Glad you got unpacted. Mike
Wow!! If I thought I had to keep a covered can by the commode so as not to clog the plumbing, I would be out of this rig and off the road in a very short time. Common sense and a fairly liberal addition of water along with a septic safe paper is really all that you need. I am careful about what goes into my grey tank (which can be a lot more foul than the black water, really) and use Dawn because it helps dissolve the grease. But with just a little attention to these systems, you can live a trouble free life, really.
I TOTALLY agree with Carol! ^.^d The common sense advice for black and grey tanks, as found here on the forum, will provide that trouble-free life she describes!
In our former sticks-and-bricks, after septic tank clogging problems (no need to detail!), we did resort to the covered can by the commode to significantly reduce paper disposal. HOWEVER, we also added an after-market bidet (which went by a totally different name in our household ::) ) to minimize the unpleasantness of the covered can. Sadly, it's not practical to add the Toto Washlet (Product Detail (http://www.totousa.com/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=301)) to the RV commode. :(
I think we should rename Carol, The Cleaning Lady. :D
We have well water and septic system at home. We fortunately have had no special problems with the systems in the six years we have lived in the country. We use "ordinary" supplies. We put kitchen scraps in the trash or the compost pile.
In coach, we generally use some kind of "septic tank" paper. I use Dawn down the commode after I empty the tanks. I add a bit more every couple of days. I'll put a bit in the toilet and allow it to slosh around as we drive. It helps keep the bowl clean and the seal lubricated.
I added a third dump valve. I back flush the black tank about three time with the grey water discharge when I dump the tanks.
We never leave the dump valves open. I try to let the waste tanks fill as much as is reasonable and convenient before dumping them. I prefer to drive a while before I empty the tanks.
We take no other special care actions regarding the waste tanks. This has worked well for us in three RVs.
Our coach came with a nozzle and valve that function as a bidet. When I was inspecting the coach, I leaned over the pot to look at the gadget and pressed a handle I didn't recognize to see what it would do. D'oh! :facepalm: Fortunately there was a towel nearby. Because the device lacks temperature control for the water, and it is not a device that was ever in our cultural history, it goes unused.
Thanks J.D. Will follow your lead for managing, see if we can find septic safe paper. I am sure my wife would appreciate getting rid of the can though she is a very good sport. I think she thought this was one of my minor expectations compared to some of the efforts she has gone through with hunting and fishing, 4-wheelers, outdoors activities! I do not know how we were going to get grandkids to comply anyway. But these friends of ours in a fifth-wheel insisted we need the can method, and I checked, they have one so were not kidding us. Thanks again for suggestion of a regimen to toss the can. Just got the FT today from MOT so busy loading it with "stuff", excited. Mike
We've used a can since 2003. No problem with grand kids. No problem with dumping black water either.
No big deal at all.
best, paul
Thanks Paul, but when I showed this to Jackie, she said I was doing ok. She was just glad to have potty paper!
Scott's single ply is septic safe,we have used it for years,plus I built my own tank flush for the black and gray tank's.
We've kept with the camper type paper and every now and then I fill the black tank about half way with water and add calgon liquid water softener and forget about it for a while before dumping it. Once a year I add a bag of ice and move the rig fore and aft for a few minutes before dumping. Had no problems so far. I never leave the valves open when hooked up. It is a hassle having the tanks get full and at the worst moment have to go out and pull the valves but that's the way it goes.