Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Christis Dream on March 01, 2012, 10:59:15 am
Title: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Christis Dream on March 01, 2012, 10:59:15 am
Not quite sure how this happened - we see the bulkhead separation but can not figure out how the airbags ended up this way. We have looked for a break in a weld on the lower steel channel the airbag sits on - could not see one on first inspection - will look again today. Any ideas???
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Michael & Jackie on March 01, 2012, 11:09:35 am
Christi and Ray, where are you? Near help? I can take photos out to FOT this a.m. if you want, see what they have to offer in advice. Advise if need that done. They could call you. I guess you have their phone number, 800-955-6226. Ask for James Triana. Otherwise, I am sure some Forum experienced folks will have ideas. So sorry, looks like a serious fix? Mike
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wolfe10 on March 01, 2012, 11:16:23 am
Post a photo of the bulkhead separation or tell us how wide the gap is.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Christis Dream on March 01, 2012, 11:51:55 am
Thanks for sending photos to FOT. We are presently just outside of Cuero, TX - about 40 miles from Victoria. DH just spoke with James and is now back under bus taking more photos - looking for possible broken trailer arm. Anyone know of shop near here capable of this type repair?
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Michael & Jackie on March 01, 2012, 12:04:00 pm
Know the area. Guess you do too? Victoria fair sized town, truck traffic route south. Must be something there? Otherwise someone out of Corpus probably next best bet.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: jeff on March 01, 2012, 12:20:38 pm
Crista, was checking with FOT mechanics as your DH was on phone with James. Worst case, when you purchased 93 did you sign up for either Coach Net or Good Sams club? If you did they may tow you to the nearest shop or even to FOT. Give me a call if I can be of help. Will be in Nac another 10 days.. 6 one 0 two one two 99 four 7
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wolfe10 on March 01, 2012, 12:31:25 pm
Until the cause of the separation is determined, I would NOT attempt to have it towed. Picking it up by the rear or even the front could easily do more damage.
A trailing arm failure would be easy to see, as would the amount of bulkhead separation.
You are wise to do nothing until a determination is made as to the cause and then how to minimize further damage.
Brett
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: jeff on March 01, 2012, 12:37:48 pm
Thanks Brett, I should have clarified my post. Don't believe any tow operator would have touched that coach before knowing what the problem was before attempting a tow. But, not all are real sharp.. I got way ahead of myself.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Keith and Joyce on March 01, 2012, 12:39:42 pm
As Brett says do not move the coach. Take advise from the factory as these coaches are unique in their towing requirements. When sufficient repairs have been made or if a flat bed could be arranged I would have it taken to Motorhomes of Texas (MoT) for a complete inspection. They, or the factory, which is about a mile away, would be able to evaluate the entire coach as something else may be lurking to show up in the future. Then an intelligent decision can be made as to it's future.
Checked and it's 286 miles from where you are to Nacogdoches.
Keith
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 01, 2012, 07:03:05 pm
Looks like the rectangular tubing is at a different angle between the top and bottom tubes. The trailing arms are really hefty but certainly a failure could have happened there. Please post more photos as you get deeper into it as we would like to look at ours.
Any warning symptoms or was it sudden?
If your insurance won't trailer it all the way, you can get 150 additional miles if you have AAA extended road service for your car.
Pierce
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Don & Tys on March 01, 2012, 07:38:01 pm
Those trailing arm supports are welded to the angle iron that the bulk head is attached to, at least on a U270 as of 99'. There is also a vertical piece of structural steel that goes from the top of the angle iron that supports those links up to the upper supports. A seperated bulkhead joint in that arrangement would put more stress at that point. Hopefully, your waste tanks and FW tank are at or near empty because the weight of these is largely supported by the 1/4" thick angle iron. If the joint is seperated all the way across, most of the support for that weight is the compartment divider that passes between the fresh and the waste tanks and they are only supported by the vertical 5/16" roloks down from the floor above and up from the bottom below. At least, that is how it is on our U270. Good luck! Please keep us updated as your issue may be directly related to the bulkhead failure that affects many of our older coaches. Don
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Christis Dream on March 01, 2012, 07:54:56 pm
You know it's NOT good when Foretravel says "We've never seen one do this before!"
When the bulkhead wall pushed out towards the rear it pushed a vertical channel that connects to the trailer arm which in turn pushed the axle back and the steel tubing that the lower airbag sits on. This was very sudden - we saw no separation in the bay when we had it open about a week ago. We were driving down the highway and heard a loud thunk from the rear and then some scraping sounds. It will have to go on a low-boy to FOT for repairs - we'll see just how good Goodsam's is. I will try to post more pics. The actual separation is about 1 3/4" wide at its widest.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wolfe10 on March 01, 2012, 08:01:04 pm
When was bulkhead separation first noticed?
These failures generally occur VERY slowly over time-- one bolt fails, putting more stress on the neighboring bolts, next bolt fails, etc.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: John S on March 01, 2012, 08:15:02 pm
Wonder if he drives it forward against a chocked front tire if the bulkhead will go back together enough to support it to have it welded till you get to FOT to have it fixed.
Just talking out loud. I have never seen that on a FT before.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wa_desert_rat on March 01, 2012, 08:39:03 pm
Wonder if he drives it forward against a chocked front tire if the bulkhead will go back together enough to support it to have it welded till you get to FOT to have it fixed.
Just talking out loud. I have never seen that on a FT before.
I think they will have to do it with hydraulics; I don't think I'd want to get in there with a welder while someone is holding the rig against a chock with the accelerator. I wonder what the other side looks like.
Craig
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: John S on March 01, 2012, 10:54:30 pm
I think they will have to do it with hydraulics; I don't think I'd want to get in there with a welder while someone is holding the rig against a chock with the accelerator. I wonder what the other side looks like.
Craig
I agree with you but I was thinking you could push it together enough to clamp or chock the rear wheels and then shut it down.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wa_desert_rat on March 01, 2012, 11:01:53 pm
That might be possible. I'm going to take a long look at my coach tomorrow. I have not seen any signs of delamination but this is downright scary.
Craig
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on March 02, 2012, 02:08:33 am
I believe that there is more of a failure here than just the bulkhead to lower cargo compartment joint, although that has failed. The lower box beams are part of a structure attached to the axle. The upper box beams are part of an assembly attached to the coach. There are 2 arms or links between these parts that hold the axle in position fore and aft and one link that holds it in position laterally. The axle wants to move forward during acceleration and aft during braking. The links prevent this and allow for axle movement going over bumps. From the pictures the axle has moved aft. My bet is that a weld has failed on the part of the structure attached to the coach allowing the bulkhead to move aft. The bulkheads front. rear. and in between really support the cargo compartment floor, as opposed the cargo compartment supporting the bulkheads. A bolt falling out of the end of one of the links would allow the axle to move, but would not pull the bulkhead out of position. I think taking it back to the factory is the right thing to do. I'm sure curious as well as most of us as to what actually happened.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wolfe10 on March 02, 2012, 11:19:31 am
Yes, please keep us posted on CAUSE of the failure (i.e. complete bulkhead failure, trailing arm failure, etc) as well as the subsequent damage it caused.
Brett
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Gerry Vicha on March 02, 2012, 12:26:33 pm
Just a reminder, I would not allow ANYONE to go under your Coach!!! if either air bag lets go your coach will be on the ground! Some type of temporary support/blocking must be in-place before any person enters that space.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wa_desert_rat on March 04, 2012, 04:25:41 pm
Haven't heard anything for a couple of days. You are probably pretty busy. Hope you are solving problems not finding more of them. We're all a little worried about you. Wish I were closer. Let us know how things are going when you get a chance.
Craig
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Carol Savournin on March 04, 2012, 06:13:54 pm
Yeah ... second that. We are waiting to see if your rig will land in Nac this week, while we are in town. What's the news??
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Christis Dream on March 04, 2012, 06:44:04 pm
Here's an update. I've sent photos of the problem to Cory at FOT and he is working up a plan & estimate with the help of one of the repair guys. This all happened when we were arriving at a new work location. We will stay here until job is finished and then have the bus put on a low-boy and taken to FOT for repairs. We are not sure how long we will be here - at least a couple of weeks. Fortunately - sitting still will not do any harm. DH has shored up the floor under the holding tanks (he was glad he put his hydraulic jack on the bus!) so the weight will not pose a problem while we are parked - we will empty them before heading to Nac. I hope to hear back from Cory early next week. We just keep saying - we'll eat this elephant one spoonful at a time!
Christi
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wa_desert_rat on March 04, 2012, 08:15:24 pm
Thanks for the update Christi. Hopefully it looks worse than it is. Glad you can live in it safely. You certainly have the distinction of dropping the most jaws (and farthest) with those photos.
Hang in there... it might be just water buffalo stew. :D
Craig
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Don Hay on March 04, 2012, 09:51:01 pm
Christi,
After reading over all of the posts regarding your issue, I didn't see anyone pose this question: Were you towing a vehicle or trailer at the time of the separation? If so, how heavy was it? I believe that the '93 U-280 towing assembly was rated for the same as our '92 U-280, which is 5,000 lbs. Even if you weren't towing at the time, if the coach had a history of towing substantially more than 5,000 lbs before you bought the coach (recently as I recall), that could have had an impact. Having said that, the Foretravel people have told me that the towing assembly (on the 280) was "heavy duty" and capable of towing more than the rated amount. Nevertheless, excessive tow weight is a factor to be considered.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Bill Willett on March 05, 2012, 09:40:46 am
Christi, you need to check the fridge for being level, if it is to far out of level you need to shut it down and use the old ice chest method.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Chuck Pearson on March 05, 2012, 01:47:00 pm
Christi,
I'm about half way between Victoria and Nac if there's any thing I can do to help let me know. I also have a contact for a good fabricator/rig welder in Corpus on the off chance that it's field repairable. Like others I am very keen to know what has failed.
Chuck
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: 96u270 on March 06, 2012, 10:49:25 pm
I'm in with Chuck,I'm in Corpus and have some welding in my background, if you would like some one to look at it I'd drive over and take a peek.. 244-0665
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: jeff on March 07, 2012, 07:59:52 am
Chrisi,
Our schedule has changed and we will be in Nac (or close) for 3 more weeks. ANYTHING we can do to help give us a PM or call six10 two12 nine047 Carol & Jeff
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Michael & Jackie on March 07, 2012, 09:39:24 am
Carol, lunch at butcher boys today or maybe some place quieter? Appleby Sand cafe is quieter, if you like country style food, buffet.
Mike harbordt 936-635-0867
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Christis Dream on March 07, 2012, 03:15:02 pm
Hi All! Thanks for all the ideas and offers of assistance - ya'll are really a great bunch and we sure appreciate the help & support. Fortunately we found a highly recommended local welding/fabricating shop that can do the work - this fits our schedule much better rather than towing 300 miles to FOT. To answer a few questions - we do tow a Honda - only about 3600 lbs, well within the limit. Fortunately the bus is staying pretty level so the fridge is functioning properly.
I am including a drawing showing the areas affected. The 2 inside vertical angles that are broken apparently have been broken for a while as the breaks are rusty, they are not of a very heavy gauge steel. The separation starts just to the right of the vertical piece to which the trailing arm connects. This bulkhead panel is pushed out about 1 3/4" on the bottom which is what pushed the trailing arm back which pushed the axle back. We are not sure when we will schedule the work - we need to fit it in with our schedule. I will keep you all posted how that goes.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Gerry Vicha on March 07, 2012, 03:53:05 pm
Good info. ^.^d My only other thought is that the damage occurred from braking, and the body of the coach kept moving forward. Also the "towed" would have applied forward pressure, through the hitch, while stopping if there was no braking system installed. I would be interested in knowing if you had to make a "Hard" stop just prior to this happening?
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Don & Tys on March 07, 2012, 05:10:37 pm
Thanks for the update! Question for you... Was this drawing in your coach documentatio... Or did Foretravel give that to you since you have been in communication? Man, I sure could of used the equivalent for our coach when starting the bulkhead/subframe repair project! Thanks, Don
Hi All! Thanks for all the ideas and offers of assistance - ya'll are really a great bunch and we sure appreciate the help & support. Fortunately we found a highly recommended local welding/fabricating shop that can do the work - this fits our schedule much better rather than towing 300 miles to FOT. To answer a few questions - we do tow a Honda - only about 3600 lbs, well within the limit. Fortunately the bus is staying pretty level so the fridge is functioning properly.
I am including a drawing showing the areas affected. The 2 inside vertical angles that are broken apparently have been broken for a while as the breaks are rusty, they are not of a very heavy gauge steel. The separation starts just to the right of the vertical piece to which the trailing arm connects. This bulkhead panel is pushed out about 1 3/4" on the bottom which is what pushed the trailing arm back which pushed the axle back. We are not sure when we will schedule the work - we need to fit it in with our schedule. I will keep you all posted how that goes.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wolfe10 on March 07, 2012, 05:23:27 pm
I will speculate, given the information above-- PLEASE, correct me if this is incorrect.
Bulkhead separation is generally NOT a "good one day-- failed the next day". Instead, it is a gradual failure. When one bolt breaks, that puts more load on the neighboring bolts. When the next bolt(s) break......
When enough bolts break, you will then see a separation of the bulkhead. Said another way, you will see a gap between the angle steel aft and the white fiberglass floor forward (talking about the rear one).
In doing mechanical inspections on Foretravels, I have seen:
1. Many that were perfect-- no separation, no broken bolts. 2. A number with 2-5 broken bolts (between the 30 or so bolts on front and rear bulkheads) with no separation. 3. A few with more broken bolts and some separation-- most from salt exposure (northern coaches or long-term water leak in wet bay which is just in front of the rear bulkhead). 4. I have only inspected two that I would classify as major issues. But, they had to go through a LONG period of failure to reach these levels-- they didn't just "happen".
Remember, it only takes 10 minutes to check both front and rear bulkhead bolts with your "eye" (looking for separation) and an inch-lb torque wrench to check bolt integrity. The fix for a couple of broken bolts is a few bucks and a few hours. It is only where this has been "let go" that this turns into a serious issue.
I don't want to minimize this, but sure don't want readers, particularly new to this Foretravel site to think this is a major issue. "Invest" a few minutes and VERIFY that yours are fine and move on. As we know from all on-line technical sites, it is easy for issues to be blown out of prospective.
Please go back to this 2 year old document for more information: Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=8645.0)
Brett
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 07, 2012, 05:34:14 pm
It would be great to have drawings like this in the Foretravel library where we could download and blow them up.
In looking at the rectangular tubing under our U300, the wall thickness and layout looks strong enough to pull a locomotive. The bulkhead design where it attaches seems to be the area where it should be checked for rust/corrosion/cracking at least on a seasonal basis. Small cracks with rust next to them may be found with a strong flashlight. Some bulkhead bolt heads may be in place but broken off a short distance from the head.
I was just about to post this when I noticed Brett's. Good idea with torque wrench.
Pierce
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Christis Dream on March 07, 2012, 05:52:42 pm
Hi Brett
Believe it or not the bulkhead separation happened pretty quick - I will say we had done a little driving on really bumpy roads. I am quite confident that the actual separation happened fairly fast - a few weeks ago I saw a photo where someone used that narrow space for a peg board for some tools and I checked that bay out to see about doing the same thing - I know if there had been any separation I would have seen then. I think the drive on the bumpy roads accelerated the separation - it was inevitable but the bumpy drive really shook it up. We were on a paved highway when the worst damage occurred - no sudden stops or bumps then.
James Triana emailed the drawing after I contacted them. A full set would very handy.
I will speculate, given the information above-- PLEASE, correct me if this is incorrect.
Bulkhead separation is generally NOT a "good one day-- failed the next day". Instead, it is a gradual failure. When one bolt breaks, that puts more load on the neighboring bolts. When the next bolt(s) break......
When enough bolts break, you will then see a separation of the bulkhead. Said another way, you will see a gap between the angle steel aft and the white fiberglass floor forward (talking about the rear one).
In doing mechanical inspections on Foretravels, I have seen:
1. Many that were perfect-- no separation, no broken bolts. 2. A number with 2-5 broken bolts (between the 30 or so bolts on front and rear bulkheads) with no separation. 3. A few with more broken bolts and some separation-- most from salt exposure (northern coaches or long-term water leak in wet bay which is just in front of the rear bulkhead). 4. I have only inspected two that I would classify as major issues. But, they had to go through a LONG period of failure to reach these levels-- they didn't just "happen".
Remember, it only takes 10 minutes to check both front and rear bulkhead bolts with your "eye" (looking for separation) and an inch-lb torque wrench to check bolt integrity. The fix for a couple of broken bolts is a few bucks and a few hours. It is only where this has been "let go" that this turns into a serious issue.
I don't want to minimize this, but sure don't want readers, particularly new to this Foretravel site to think this is a major issue. "Invest" a few minutes and VERIFY that yours are fine and move on. As we all know from all on-line technical sites, it is easy for issues to be blown out of prospective.
Please go back to this 2 year old document for more information: Bulkhead Repair-- A Comprehensive Look (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=8645.0)
Brett
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wolfe10 on March 07, 2012, 06:07:35 pm
Believe it or not the bulkhead separation happened pretty quick - I will say we had done a little driving on really bumpy roads. I am quite confident that the actual separation happened fairly fast - a few weeks ago I saw a photo where someone used that narrow space for a peg board for some tools and I checked that bay out to see about doing the same thing - I know if there had been any separation I would have seen then.
Christi,
We are talking about two different things/areas. You are talking about the bulkheads inside the basement. I believe they failed only AFTER the total failure of the bulkhead I wrote up two years ago and referred to just now. That bulkhead is UNDER the coach. And, sure, after it lets go, THEN you will see issues with the bulkheads inside the basement, suspension issues, etc.
So, the question is, did you check the bulkheads (read the link in my post above). If so, what did you find when you bought it, weeks before the failure, etc?
Look at the excellent photos Don took of the bulkhead area in the first post on this thread to see the bulkhead that probably was the CAUSE of your failure: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=13602.msg75952#msg75952).
Brett
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: hotonthetrail on March 07, 2012, 06:52:37 pm
I would like to see a structure drawing of the bottom of the bay tubing which has to part of the connecting structure to the bulkhead, something has be present to tie the bolts to and the bay floor tubing must be involved to give horizontal strength to distribute the forces from the axle. JC
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wolfe10 on March 07, 2012, 11:34:36 pm
I would like to see a structure drawing of the bottom of the bay tubing which has to part of the connecting structure to the bulkhead, something has be present to tie the bolts to and the bay floor tubing must be involved to give horizontal strength to distribute the forces from the axle. JC
There are 15+ Rolock bolts securing the angle to the 1 1/2" box beam at both the front and back bulkhead to front/rear suspension/frame. The photos Don took of his bulkhead separation show the bolts and his "rebuild photos" show this area very clearly. A Rolock is a high-end self tapping bolt. The repair uses grade 8 bolts, washers, nuts and plug where you access the bottom fiberglass to install the washer and nut.
Brett
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on March 08, 2012, 01:39:50 am
I will speculate, given the information above-- PLEASE, correct me if this is incorrect.
Bulkhead separation is generally NOT a "good one day-- failed the next day". Instead, it is a gradual failure. When one bolt breaks, that puts more load on the neighboring bolts. When the next bolt(s) break......
Brett
Brett, Mine wasn't a "good one day-- failed the next day", but I had been watching carefully for bulkhead indications and my issues progressed from "nothing visible" to considerable separation in a few short months of essentially idle coach storage...............well documented, in Oct. of 2009, here: Bulkhead Separation (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/bulkhead_separation-neal_pillsbury.html)
I also see misperceptions about trailering creeping into the discussions again.
Christi, After reading over all of the posts regarding your issue, I didn't see anyone pose this question: Were you towing a vehicle or trailer at the time of the separation? If so, how heavy was it? I believe that the '93 U-280 towing assembly was rated for the same as our '92 U-280, which is 5,000 lbs. Even if you weren't towing at the time, if the coach had a history of towing substantially more than 5,000 lbs before you bought the coach (recently as I recall), that could have had an impact. Having said that, the Foretravel people have told me that the towing assembly (on the 280) was "heavy duty" and capable of towing more than the rated amount. Nevertheless, excessive tow weight is a factor to be considered.
Don, Trailering can produce shock loading on the coach sidewalls but it does not aggravate bulkhead issues unless one uses ONLY the trailer brakes to stop a coach plus trailer combination, or unless one has the horsepower and can accelerate aggressively enough to separate the bulkhead joint while overcoming the trailer's inertia. In all other instances, the trailer braking forces encountered during normal service braking and retarder braking, with a trailer in tow, compress the bulkhead joint. However, without a trailer to compress (and therefore help) the bulkhead joint, aggressive retarder use will try to OPEN the bulkhead joint. That, along with an extremely humid, wet 2009 New England summer, may well have aggravated my situation because I drove the coach four times, during that summer, in the rain, in the New England mountains without a trailer or car in tow. It's my theory that the wet summer, the fresh water tank overflow and the rain I drove in all aggravated the rust jacking susceptibility and it simply caused the weakened ROLOCK bolts to fail. I agree that the whole bulkhead issue should not raise alarm. It certainly wasn't much of a problem for me, was easily and relatively inexpensively addressed. I'm very glad that I knew to be watching for it and had been since roughly 2002 or 2003. But it did manifest itself in an unexpected way and in a pretty short time frame. It's definitely worth keeping the misconceptions at bay. The issue needs to be understood and watched for in our vintage coaches, or, as we know, it can progress out of control. Coaches operated in States that use the roadway liquid De-icers are the most prone to the issue. Bear in mind that the coach does not actually need to be operated in the De-icer liquid. Liquid De-icers are many times more damage producing than rock salt and are so aggressive that the damage producing residuals reside in the pavement well beyond the storms when they were laid down. Then, damp highways produce the mist that carry them to the seams and joints where they do their work. V/R Neal
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wolfe10 on March 08, 2012, 09:54:25 am
Christi,
If you would, post photos of the area shown in these excellent pictures taken by Don on the first post in this thread: Yet another Bulkhead Separation Story, Chapter 1 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=13602.msg75952#msg75952) or in Neal's excellent write-up and pictures: Bulkhead Separation (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/bulkhead_separation-neal_pillsbury.html)
Neal,
Agree that a visual inspection alone can be misleading. If the coach is not under stress from road/towing, etc there could be many broken bolts, yet no separation. That is why from the beginning I have suggested putting a wrench on the Rolock bolts and VERIFYING that they are OK. Were the coach to have the majority of the bolts break from long sitting with salty solution on them from road salt, parking near salt water, etc, it could APPEAR that the failure was "good one day, bad the next". But I suspect that a torquing of bolts would have revealed a number of failed ones well before the bulkhead showed visible signs of separating.
Again, we are talking about whether 15+ bolts are secure. The rusted head could still be there and "look" OK but holding NOTHING-- hence the use of a wrench to check.
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on March 08, 2012, 12:29:51 pm
......................Agree that a visual inspection alone can be misleading.......................The rusted head could still be there and "look" OK but holding NOTHING-- hence the use of a wrench to check.
Brett, I too have crawled under a significant population of FT's, encouraging other owners to do the same. My FT "Runnin' Mate" (that had a problem with his 2000 U320 back in 2002 or 2003) got me on board with the need to be vigilant. I don't agree, but he always said "It's not a matter of WILL it show up, but WHEN will it show up? So, you might as well put in the reinforcement bolting now, rather than later."
From my experience, there are usually a number of indicators, including failure to withstand the 250 inch-lb. (20-21 ft.-lb.) torque check, but I agree with using a torque wrench, and until you advocated the torque check, it wasn't routinely practiced.
I've lost track, but I don't think that a torque check is routinely practiced at MOT, FOT or Extreme, even today. I think that they all still (primarily) use visual, until they have collaborating indicators or they actually become involved in a repair. From a liability standpoint, I guess that makes sense, but from an owner's standpoint, a 250 inch-lb. torque check is almost always a crystal clear "go/no-go" indication. The only time that it isn't, that I know of, is when a ROLOCK strips and offers significant resistance, but not the full 250 inch-lb. torque. Of course it goes without saying that when one finds defective ROLOCKS, one needs to be prepared to correct the defects without excuse and/or procrastination! Neal
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wolfe10 on March 08, 2012, 04:40:25 pm
Brett, I too have crawled under a significant population of FT's, encouraging other owners to do the same. My FT "Runnin' Mate" (that had a problem with his 2000 U320 back in 2002 or 2003) got me on board with the need to be vigilant. I don't agree, but he always said "It's not a matter of WILL it show up, but WHEN will it show up? So, you might as well put in the reinforcement bolting now, rather than later." Neal
Neal,
I agree with you, not your running mate. Once broken bolts are replaced properly and that area sealed from water intrusion around the bolts, I have seen a VERY low rate of failure. After 2 1/2 years of driving our coach since the very few broken bolts were replaced and the area cleaned and undercoated to keep water from wicking up the bolt threads, I have had zero failures.
Last week I inspected a much newer Foretravel that had a few broken Rolocks replaced awhile back. 100% torqued up just fine.
It is when water is allowed to continue to wick up the Rolock threads, and bolts break that it becomes "inevitable" that more will fail.
The design is NOT flawed. But, the lack of waterproofing around the bolts where the angle was over-size drilled so the Rolocks can torque up in the 1 1/2" tube did allow for damage, particularly in salty conditions.
Replace the broken ones, wire brush the angle and bulkhead joint, mask off the bolt heads, and undercoat. If that is done, would love to hear of anyone who has more issues. Cost is minimal unless just totally neglected-- ya just like a lot of other things.
Brett
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: wds3135 on April 20, 2012, 03:34:35 pm
How did you come out of this situation?? OR has anyone heard from them?
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Christis Dream on May 10, 2012, 05:17:41 am
Hello to All!
Well after 2 months our last job finally completed and we were able to take the MH for repair. I was fortunate to find a local welder/fabricator who could handle the job. We had a tow company come out to look at the problem and his recommendation was to drive the MH very slowly (10 - 15 MPH) the 15 miles to the repair shop which we did without incident. We did run a chain around the rear axle and a structural member up front and cinch with a come along to ensure the rear axle would not pull back any further whilst driving.
I have to say if you are ever in S. Texas and need a welder I have the company for you! These guys were great - very safety conscientious - they were extremely aware of the fire potential and took every step to minimize the risk using fire barrier everywhere and even pulling up a section of the floor. They were able to weld the breaks in all of the vertical supports and then weld those along their full length for reinforcement. The one thing they found that we could not see on our inspection was where the steel channel on top of the air bag broke loose from the center structural member (originally this was only tack welded) which they also welded. They fabricated a steel angle piece and welded it along the bottom the ran bolts through it up into the basement flooring.
Fortunately the rear axle went easily back into alignment with no damage to any mechanical components - even the air bags re-seated with no leaks! The best part - it only took 2 days in the shop and now drives like a dream. The refrigerator is back to consistently keeping cold now that we can level and our rolling chairs at the table do not roll downhill all the time!
I want to thank everyone here for all of the help and support - you guys are really great in a crisis. If I can convince my husband to crawl under the MH again I will post some pics of the repair - not too sure that will happen again - he's probably had enough of crawling under the MH for a while!
One thing I will say to anyone researching this issue is if you are hearing random loud bangs while driving down the road - you might think it is transmission related but it is probably your rear end coming apart - check it out NOW.
Thanks again
Christi
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Carol Savournin on May 10, 2012, 10:02:38 am
Christi ... it is certainly wonderful to hear that you are on the road again! I don't know where you are just now ... but if you are in Texas and within striking distance of the Factory, I would certainly make that a destination. It would be money well spent to have them check things out just to see what must have happened. There may be other issues that you can head off with a little preventive maintenance. The guys there are not going to raid your wallet needlessly, especially after hearing your story and knowing that you have such an interested following on the Forum. They DO know us and they pay attention! Best of luck to you guys!
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Keith and Joyce on May 10, 2012, 11:51:15 am
Christi and Ray,
Good that you have the coach back in one piece and you are continuing on with it. I second Carols recommendation, take it back to NAC for a thorough inspection and alignment. The folk at the Factory and at Motor Homes of Texas know their stuff and are trustworthy.
Keith
Title: Re: Christi and Ray's frame separation issue (was Calamity Jane strikes again!)
Post by: Kent Speers on May 10, 2012, 01:12:21 pm
I third that suggestion.
I just left Camp Foretravel after having several services completed. I must say that this has been my most pleasant experience with Foretravel Service. The attitudes and customer concern were noticeably better than in the past. I met Drew, the new service manager and was duly impressed. I think the benefits of Drew and Corey's recent promotion are already showing. The whole atmosphere was just more friendly and the work was done right and in a timely manner.