Well, I can say that my generator ran fine for our entire Spring Break trip (probably a good 24 hrs during travel time and an overnight stay in WalMart) up until the last 5 minutes of our trip. Then it died. I could restart but it coughs and sputters for about 30 seconds then evens out as normal, then dies again. I waited a good 30 minutes before the next try and it ran for at least 15 minutes. I left it on with both air conditioners on at 2 am in storage and went home to sleep hoping it would be running in the morning. Ran out 6 hours later and it was dead again. I'm HOPING it's fuel related this time as what I did before on this thread (PowerTech 10KW Runs then Stops (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=14476.msg84400#msg84400)) seemed to have fixed the previous issues. Symptoms are definitely different. The fuel filter is relatively new, changed less than probably 30 hours ago. Time to inspect the fuel lines when I get a chance. I wish my generator had some fault code lights or something. I hate these shooting in the dark issues. You can throw a lot of time and money at something like this and be totally off the mark. :headwall:
Benjie, This may be a long shot. I have the same Generator.
In 100+ heat in AZ a few years ago I had the same symptoms, run 15 minutes, stop, easy start again shut down.
I found in the control box at the back of the box some wires attached with ring ends to a board. One of the wires looked like it was sound but with a slight wiggle the generator stopped. I replaced the wire end and tightened up all of them and have had no problem since. Apparently the ring end on the wire was improperly crimped or the wire wiggled loose.
Hope you find the cause.
Gary B
Thanks Gary. The symptoms sound more like fuel delivery issues to me given the sputtering going on at start up after it dies, but I'm open to all suggestions. My first action is to try running out of a bucket. Hopefully that fixes the issue. If not, then it'll be off to other possible issues such as electrical, etc.
Being over 15 years old, I would be having a real good look at the fuel lines between the tank and the generator including the fuel filter, both supply and return lines. Second would be a fuel filter that is full of crap, they will act the same way. Also if you can run it with no load for awhile with no issues, that only appear when you add load such as two a/c units etc. sure indicate fuel starvation, IE dirty fuel filter, just because it has been about 30 hours means little if you have algee or other crap in the fuel system.
Cheers
Dave M
Dave,
Excellent advice! I'm curious, how long is OK to run the gen with a light load. I read somewhere that it can be bad to run for extended periods of time with light loads?
Best Regards,
Benjie
Benjie Zeller
(512) 587-4628
Benjie,
You are correct, that you don't want to rack up a lot of hours at light loads. Kind of like starting your car and leaving it run in the driveway day after day.
But, I think Dave was suggesting that as a way to determine if the fuel filter was clogged. Fuel demand under light load is less than at heavy load. If it runs at light load, but stumbles and dies under heavy load, it would be another indicator that you might have inadequate fuel flow. Sure, it could be other things, but look at the inexpensive easy ones first.
Brett
Brett,
Thanks. I guess what I was asking is an hour or two OK? Up to this point, I haven't let it run for more than 10 minutes without at least one AC or fan on.
Benjie
One hour at light throttle will create no long-term issues and is a good indicator of fuel flow.
Have you had a chance to visually inspect the generator fuel filter. Actually, changing it would be a low cost good starting place.
No, I haven't. This all occurred at 2 am last night as we arrived home. Will try to tackle it sometime in the next week.
Be sure to ck the inline fuel filter next to the small electric pump. This one seems to get overlooked and it could have the original on it which is painted same as gen. It is hard to see. Good Luck DAN
Assuming your generator is in average condition, running with no or very light load for 8-10 hours will not hurt it in any way, such as runnng at night with the a/c on and during the night it gets cold and the load drops off to a near zero load until you get up and fix chow. No panic.
Dave M
Uhhh, there are two? If so, I'm fairly certain it wasn't changed.
Best Regards,
Benjie
Benjie Zeller
(512) 587-4628
1993-1995_powertech_10kw-belts-filters-hoses-for-foretravel (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/belts-filters-hoses/power-tech-pts-10kw-1993-1995.html)
This only shows one filter?
Best Regards,
Benjie
Benjie Zeller
(512) 587-4628
Sorry for all the questions. How would one inspect the filter for algae? Remove and cut it open? I assume looking for something greenish?
Best Regards,
Benjie
Benjie Zeller
(512) 587-4628
Yes, there is an inline filter, always over looked but allows the engine to start sputter then die. Check to see how much fuel you are getting to the large filter. DAN
Algee is a black slime
Dave M
I have had this black slime on a diesel engine car that did not cover the entire filter. It would idle all day, but when you drove it 60, it would die, and would not immediately restart but always would after it had sat for a short while. Additionally, there may be a second filter change right away as there may still be some algae/slime in the tank that will gum up the new filter. If the problem is rectified with a new filter, you may wish to purchase a second in the event that you need that second one on short order. Changing them is really not a big deal.
Add Algaecide to your deisel, but be ready to change your filter if you have a lot and it breaks it loose.
I add some about 2000 miles before I go in for service. Dan
Most diesel cars have a tank drain. After the light comes on, just drain and rinse the tank. The assembly where all the hoses come out at the bottom of the tank is removable. Pull the sending unit for the fuel gauge at the same time and clean it. Good to clean the contacts also. Algae on the sliding fuel sender contact is the biggest reason for intermittent fuel gauge readings.
Be sure to change both the spin-on bigger secondary filter as well as the small plastic primary filter. Good idea to change the secondary on a regular basis at any water that sits on the bottom will rust a hole in the bottom of the filter. Have had this happen several times.
Lack of tank drains was another problem that Olds had when they decided to install a diesel engine. Once the tank had algae, they had to install a new one. Dealers replaced a lot of Volvo tanks also when they put the diesel VW van engine in them.
Pierce
I have a 96u270 and two years ago I had the same thing happen to me...I found the fuel pump was weak and replaced...Short time later it did the samething again.
This time I found small cracks in the fuel line coming out of the main diesel tk...The small cracks allowed air to mix with the diesel and this is what caused my stalling issues.. Replaced all four lines,two to main drive engine and the two to the gen...This fixed all issues for me,Hope this helps
Yes, cracked fuel lines are reasonably common in 10+ year old applications. And, as you say, there is often no outward sign of failure, since they suck air in, not let fuel out.
I went by today to change the large filter. Now, I can't seem to get any fuel to the filter or engine? How do you prime the system? I thought you pushed down on the STOP PREHEAT button in Picture 1 and loosened the bolt where my finger is pointing in Picture 2. I seem to remember a clicking sound when pushing STOP PREHEAT before (thought that was the fuel pump), but that's not happening. I'm wondering if the fuel pump might be bad? I've held the STOP PREHEAT button down for approximately 20 seconds, removed the fuel filter, bone dry. I also cycled the engine with the START button for probably 20 seconds, fuel filter again bone dry.
Picture 3 is of the small fuel filter. It fell out when I removed the bottom cap. Anyone know if in the pic we're looking through the top towards the bottom or bottom towards the top?
The fuel lines actually look pretty good, like someone may have replaced them in the past. They are cracked at the clamps which could also be the issue (see Pic 4), but I think I first want to resolve this priming issue.
Pic 5 is the fuel tank. Can someone confirm the far right is the genny fuel supply?
Pic 6 is a full pic of my generator. Is the top hose on the left a fuel supply return that coincides with the middle inlet and hose in Pic 5?
When I primed mine I just took the diesel filter,topped it off with fuel and screwed back on...This was all it needed to pull prime... I took my fuel pump to Napa and they matched me one up. I think it was only like 50 bucks are so
BTW,My old pump worked on and off like it was on its last leg,I took it off, hooked it up to a hose and stuck the hose in a bucket of fuel to see what the flow looked like.
Turned out it was very weak and pumped diesel on and off so I knew it was bad
I crack the bleed screw where the fuel line goes into the engine. Run the pump until no more air, then close it off.
How do you run the pump?
Benjie, Lowest hose in pic of generator at bottom is fuel line from tank, it goes to pump and then to injector.
Upper hose is fuel return, it comes off fuel rail at injectors and then returns to tank.
If you have tried to long to prime you may have air in injector lines, While cranking break nut at each injector pump loose til you get fuel.
Gary B
Benjie,the fuel lines you are looking at are the return lines and tank vent,the feed line come's from the center of the tank.
Benjie, check the electric fuel pump, it should start running when you hit the start switch 10 seconds or so before the starter engages. Mind did the same thing when the pump was bad hard start and would not pull a load. Another way to eleminate the bad fuel line issue and isolate the fuel pump is to run a piece of fuel line from the pump to a gallon can of fuel and start the gen if all is good it's the fuel line, if not it's the electric fuel pump most likely. Don't worry about running the gen without a full load, most rv generators suffer from not being run enough load or not.
Bruce,
On mine, when you hit the start switch the engine starts to turn immediately. I've tried "feeling" the pump just to see if I could tell if it's humming, but impossible with the entire thing turning over.
Benjie
Feel free to poke holes in any of this logic...
I screwed the fuel filter on empty. I've tried every button I have at my finger tips which is only two ("START" and "PREHEAT STOP"), thus far not a drop shows up in the fuel filter. I've cycled the engine for maybe 10 - 20 seconds multiple times with the bleed nut (pic 2 earlier in this topic) closed, slightly open, and fully off with no luck. I also cycled the engine with the fuel filter completely off to see if any fuel would dump out, no such luck. I also pulled off the old filter and tore it apart. No black algae sludge that I can see. If fact, looked pretty clean to me. I also cut off the end pictured in pic 4 since it was cracked and reattached. With all of that, I'm leaning towards three things right now...
1. The fuel pump is dead.
2. There is something blocking the fuel line
3. The fuel line is cracked so badly somewhere that it's only sucking air and not allowing the pump to pull any fuel.
I'm leaning towards 1 and 2 ONLY because the fuel line looks to be in decent shape to me. After cutting the old end off, the new end seemed in good shape.
My next step is to probably try diesel in a bucket through a hose. If that works, then my conclusion will be #2 or #3. If that doesn't work, #1 is where I'll start.
We had cracks in our supply line and were getting air in the supply.
People here suggested I remove the hose to the lift pump inlet and put a longer hose on the pump inlet and drop the other end in a bucket/bottle of fuel to see if the engine will run properly. If it does, then you know the lift pump is operating OK and everything from the pump to the engine. Just be sure you have a large enough container or ability to replenish fuel so you can let it run long enough to get a good check.
If the engine still does not work correctly, reconnect the supply line back to the lift pump inlet and remove the engine end of the hose connected to the lift pump outlet and hold the hose over a bucket. Start the lift pump to see if it is pumping fuel.
These two operations will help narrow down where the problem exists. This helped me to determine the problem was in the supply line. And when removing it, I found cracks and wet places around some of the cracks which meant fuel was slowly leaking out of the cracks.
When you press the preheat button the glow plugs warm and the pump should run to press up the fuel pressure. On my kubota the fuel line goes into a distrib block on the engine. The bolt on top of that is loosened to bleed off air.
Dave,
That's what I thought I remembered. Kind of a clicking noise from the pump? If that's the case, its not happening on mine when the preheat button is pushed.
I believe the bolt you're referring to is this pic?
Regards,
Benjie
Anyone with a similar vintage coach as mine and 10KW Powertech Kubota mind hitting the PREHEAT/STOP switch in their gen bay and confirming if they can hear the fuel pump prime. I believe it's a continuous clicking noise as long as you hold the button, but can't remember for sure.
Thanks,
Benjie
I always hear the clicking even when I preheat from the inside dash. 1999 U320
best, paul
Yup. Try putting 12V directly to the pump.
Benjie,
The PREHEAT button powers the glow plugs and runs the fuel pump.
If you leave the empty filter a little loose, engage the PREHEAT, and finish tightening the filter when fuel overflows you can fill almost all on the line and the engine may self-bleed.
I have the same generator in my '96 295.
Thanks Elliot. When I push the PREHEAT button, I get nothing from the pump. No sounds, no clicking, no humming. I put my hand on it and no vibration. I've also left the filter completely off and still no fuel flowing out. My thought is the fuel pump is probably gone.
Wayne at FOT fixed something on our generator related to preheat and electric pump. It may have been a diode or broken wire. The generator started and ran OK, but I could hear no action when I pressed preheat. After he fixed it, I can hear the electric pump run when I press the preheat switch.
Dave H's suggestion to put 12VDC directly to the pump may provide some diagnostic information.
Just push the start button to run the pump. Remember that this pump is actually a lift pump, feeding fuel to individual injection pumps at each injector. The generator can actually run, but poorly, with a very weak lift pump.
From years of experience, the ONLY fuel pump you WANT is the Faucet, available from marine shops.
All others have long term issues if your that lucky.
Dave M
Can't find a Facet anywhere in stock around Austin. Looks like I'll have to order online unless someone has a local suggestion?
Best Regards,
Benjie
Benjie Zeller
(512) 587-4628
Benjie,
The Facet is worth the wait if one isn't available locally. It may be a little more $ but worth it. Have you checked with the big marina out on Lake Travis that is around Indian Point? (can't remember the name but will look for an old receipt) They have a good shop at there dry dock.
Pamela & Mike
Just found receipt: Riviera Marina 512-250-8321 We don't make anything from these folks but they have helped us out before.
I ordered one about 10 minutes ago. Should arrive in a few days. I'll update this thread if that solves my issue!
I hope this is helpful, when you get air in the line from what ever source, you need to purge the system. I think the best way to do that is to crack (slightly loosen) the injectors with a wrench. Then, you would crank the generator engine until the bubbles stop coming out and get the fuel coming out without bubbles. Then just go back and tighten the injector lines and then you will have primed the pump and the engine should run. I too have had an issue with old fuel lines. I got them changed out and viola, no more issues. However, my diesel did have the old lines with issues, once started it ran fine and did not die. It was just a real pain to start as it just would not run on air (had to crank and crank until air was out of lines with fuel being pumped in). This may be too remedial, sorry if so.
We have joy! Installed new pump and also replaced the short 5/16 fuel lines running between the pump, filter and injectors. Hit the Preheat button and could hear the pump click away until fuel started escaping the bleed valve. Fired the generator up and she ran like a champ for about an hour under load. Love it when a fix is simple and effective!