Title: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on April 09, 2012, 10:01:33 pm
Post by: John S on April 09, 2012, 10:01:33 pm
Well, I have finally have the chance to test the resonator on a long trip. I am 2000 plus miles into it and to put it bluntly, I wish I did it sooner. More power on the hills and better milage. I have done this trip before and even with the headwind I am using less fuel and climbing the hills easier. Tmps have been lower but so is ambient so that test will have to wait a bit.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 10, 2012, 08:38:37 am
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 10, 2012, 08:38:37 am
John, I fully understand and agree, the thing I do not understand is simply, why everyone has not made the change, maybe some do not beleive that it makes any improvement, or worried about the noise or what I am not sure.
I have no idea about the newer engine setups that are sensing the exhaust and/or using the DEF, or have the muffler system that needs removed and cleaned by Cummins, there sure are some fancy exhaust systems for the EPA that make it difficult to change much.
The beauty is that it works on all the different engine setups prior to about 2006.
Seems everyone who has changed to the resonator would never go back to the old restrictive, heat producing, heavy, expensive muffler that also takes up so much space.
Cheers
Dave M
I have no idea about the newer engine setups that are sensing the exhaust and/or using the DEF, or have the muffler system that needs removed and cleaned by Cummins, there sure are some fancy exhaust systems for the EPA that make it difficult to change much.
The beauty is that it works on all the different engine setups prior to about 2006.
Seems everyone who has changed to the resonator would never go back to the old restrictive, heat producing, heavy, expensive muffler that also takes up so much space.
Cheers
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 10, 2012, 08:45:43 am
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 10, 2012, 08:45:43 am
I need edgicatin' here ;) . Is the resonator a replacement part for the muffler? If so, can a Cummins dealer install one, or make the conversion. What are the costs involved for the benefit received?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 10, 2012, 10:09:32 am
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 10, 2012, 10:09:32 am
Peter, I think John S. can give a better answer to that than I, as I do my own work on exhaust etc.
Dave M
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: PatC on April 10, 2012, 12:12:05 pm
Post by: PatC on April 10, 2012, 12:12:05 pm
Definition of a resonator in a automotive muffler system: "Some cars, especially luxury cars where quiet operation is a key feature, have another component in the exhaust that looks like a muffler, but is called a resonator. This device works just like the resonator chamber in the muffler -- the dimensions are calculated so that the waves reflected by the resonator help cancel out certain frequencies of sound in the exhaust." In simple terms, it bounces the noise around inside a chamber which is "tuned" to change the noise into a nicer sounding noise. In the case of a diesel muffler system on a Class 8 tractor, there is no resonator because the muffler is much larger. In a recreational DP such as a Foretravel, the muffler is much smaller, therefore requiring a resonator to make the system sound nicer.
On a diesel, the turbo is considered a muffling devise, and is all that is required by law in most states. Most states only require the muffling devise (turbo) as part of the state required safety inspection system. But some states also have a law on the books that says you cannot alter or modify the oem muffler system. Many shops where I live will refuse to remove the stock muffler and replace it with a resonator, citing NYS law, and claiming they could get in trouble because they are a state registered repair shop. I really doubt that they could get in trouble. But there are custom shops, who are also NYS registered repair shops, where I live that will not hesitate doing this work. I would think a Cummins owned shop might refuse to do this work on the basis that it would void the Cummins warranty. But a independent certified Cummins shop might be more than willing to do this work. I believe Pittsburgh Power - High performance diesel engine systems (http://www.pittsburghpower.com/) was a Cummins certified shop at one time, and I am sure that they would do this type of work. It is what they specialize in today. But they do things to Cummins engines that would make Cummins engineers cringe, like getting 1200 hp out of a Cummins 5.9 6BT engine.
On a diesel, the turbo is considered a muffling devise, and is all that is required by law in most states. Most states only require the muffling devise (turbo) as part of the state required safety inspection system. But some states also have a law on the books that says you cannot alter or modify the oem muffler system. Many shops where I live will refuse to remove the stock muffler and replace it with a resonator, citing NYS law, and claiming they could get in trouble because they are a state registered repair shop. I really doubt that they could get in trouble. But there are custom shops, who are also NYS registered repair shops, where I live that will not hesitate doing this work. I would think a Cummins owned shop might refuse to do this work on the basis that it would void the Cummins warranty. But a independent certified Cummins shop might be more than willing to do this work. I believe Pittsburgh Power - High performance diesel engine systems (http://www.pittsburghpower.com/) was a Cummins certified shop at one time, and I am sure that they would do this type of work. It is what they specialize in today. But they do things to Cummins engines that would make Cummins engineers cringe, like getting 1200 hp out of a Cummins 5.9 6BT engine.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: wa_desert_rat on April 10, 2012, 12:28:13 pm
Post by: wa_desert_rat on April 10, 2012, 12:28:13 pm
Pat... I assume you have done the resonator mod on your U225. The muffler on mine is gigantic! But it appears that the pipes associated with it are 3". I have a Pacbrake but it's a long way away from the muffler. I'd love to get that thing out of there but not sure what to buy to replace it with.
I'd be interested in any details from any U225 owner. Pics would be nice. :) I've looked through the archives and haven't found anything specific.
I couldn't believe how big the muffler was when I looked under there. Sheesh!
Craig
I'd be interested in any details from any U225 owner. Pics would be nice. :) I've looked through the archives and haven't found anything specific.
I couldn't believe how big the muffler was when I looked under there. Sheesh!
Craig
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 10, 2012, 12:46:40 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 10, 2012, 12:46:40 pm
A few points as I see em, Warranty issue, Cummins did at one point (I beleive) had a 5 year / 100K mile warranty, I would be amazed at the number of owners who have a coach that fits in that paramiter, that are concerned about a resonator.
Second Cummins is more concerned about exhaust restriction than how free it is. The freer the better.
Just one comment for the ISM owners who are thinking of the change from the 450 to 500 hp settings, do the resonator first, the turbo change will not fit with the factory origional monster muffler.
Having improved power and fuel burn rates are not for everyone, it is easy to just leave it alone and that is not all that bad.
Enjoy
Dave M
Second Cummins is more concerned about exhaust restriction than how free it is. The freer the better.
Just one comment for the ISM owners who are thinking of the change from the 450 to 500 hp settings, do the resonator first, the turbo change will not fit with the factory origional monster muffler.
Having improved power and fuel burn rates are not for everyone, it is easy to just leave it alone and that is not all that bad.
Enjoy
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: wayne m on April 10, 2012, 01:16:53 pm
Post by: wayne m on April 10, 2012, 01:16:53 pm
peter
I changed my exhaust system from a 4 inch to a 5 inch from the flex pipe to the end. I ran this straight pipe setup for 3000 miles. It was a little noisy to say the least. I then inserted an aero 5050 into the system and I think it is great.
the aero 5050 was $135.00. the rest of the pieces including a new flex pipe, some 5 inch pipe and a few elbows, a couple of hangers, clamps and a new 5 inch chrome tip was about $300.00.
I also had to enlarge the hole where the tip comes through the fiberglass. I have ran this setup now for about 7000 miles. I think I can claim a slight improvement on power and mileage, but if the window is open, the growl of the engine makes it a great upgrade.
I changed my exhaust system from a 4 inch to a 5 inch from the flex pipe to the end. I ran this straight pipe setup for 3000 miles. It was a little noisy to say the least. I then inserted an aero 5050 into the system and I think it is great.
the aero 5050 was $135.00. the rest of the pieces including a new flex pipe, some 5 inch pipe and a few elbows, a couple of hangers, clamps and a new 5 inch chrome tip was about $300.00.
I also had to enlarge the hole where the tip comes through the fiberglass. I have ran this setup now for about 7000 miles. I think I can claim a slight improvement on power and mileage, but if the window is open, the growl of the engine makes it a great upgrade.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 10, 2012, 01:27:51 pm
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 10, 2012, 01:27:51 pm
peter
I changed my exhaust system from a 4 inch to a 5 inch from the flex pipe to the end. I ran this straight pipe setup for 3000 miles. It was a little noisy to say the least. I then inserted an aero 5050 into the system and I think it is great.
the aero 5050 was $135.00. the rest of the pieces including a new flex pipe, some 5 inch pipe and a few elbows, a couple of hangers, clamps and a new 5 inch chrome tip was about $300.00.
I also had to enlarge the hole where the tip comes through the fiberglass. I have ran this setup now for about 7000 miles. I think I can claim a slight improvement on power and mileage, but if the window is open, the growl of the engine makes it a great upgrade.
Thanks for the details.
Peter
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on April 10, 2012, 05:30:23 pm
Post by: John S on April 10, 2012, 05:30:23 pm
I need edgicatin' here ;) . Is the resonator a replacement part for the muffler? If so, can a Cummins dealer install one, or make the conversion. What are the costs involved for the benefit received?
I had CUmmins in Roanoke do mine. I got the parts List from Dave and they took two days to do it. One day to really do it but to make it fit and and to TIG weld it all together. So, it was one full day and I was out by 10 am the next. The muffler had a hole in it and the resonator was the replacement. I saved weight and it sounds great. It is a bit deeper throated sound. The turbo spools up much faster and the power is better too. I held speeds that I could not have done on this trip. I love it and now I have to think on upgrading the engine as well... Dave might have created a monster. Oh the cost was split between parts and labor and ran about 1800 bucks with taxes. I will say that my situation was much more difficult as the batteries were right near the muffler and if it was not set up that way, you could be done in about 4 hours...
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 10, 2012, 06:32:17 pm
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 10, 2012, 06:32:17 pm
I had CUmmins in Roanoke do mine. I got the parts List from Dave and they took two days to do it. One day to really do it but to make it fit and and to TIG weld it all together. So, it was one full day and I was out by 10 am the next. The muffler had a hole in it and the resonator was the replacement. I saved weight and it sounds great. It is a bit deeper throated sound. The turbo spools up much faster and the power is better too. I held speeds that I could not have done on this trip. I love it and now I have to think on upgrading the engine as well... Dave might have created a monster. Oh the cost was split between parts and labor and ran about 1800 bucks with taxes. I will say that my situation was much more difficult as the batteries were right near the muffler and if it was not set up that way, you could be done in about 4 hours...
Thanks for the details. It does sound like a very good upgrade when the time comes to replace the muffler.
Peter
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on April 10, 2012, 08:30:02 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on April 10, 2012, 08:30:02 pm
Peter, you can do the change over it is really easy. I did mine and had never done exhaust work before and have a really bad back that will not allow me to lay on my back etc, that is why I took the side panel off. That is the only way to do this kind of job IMHO.
I think my cost of parts was around $200 so I think to pay some shop $1500 is crazy, unless you cannot physically do it. That is 375 galls of fuel !!!
John H
I think my cost of parts was around $200 so I think to pay some shop $1500 is crazy, unless you cannot physically do it. That is 375 galls of fuel !!!
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 10, 2012, 08:34:12 pm
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 10, 2012, 08:34:12 pm
Peter, you can do the change over it is really easy. I did mine and had never done exhaust work before and have a really bad back that will not allow me to lay on my back etc, that is why I took the side panel off. That is the only way to do this kind of job IMHO.
I think my cost of parts was around $200 so I think to pay some shop $1500 is crazy, unless you cannot physically do it. That is 375 galls of fuel !!!
John H
I've never done this type of exhaust work, but I can probably do it with some guidance and a recommended parts/tools list.
Peter
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on April 10, 2012, 08:47:59 pm
Post by: John S on April 10, 2012, 08:47:59 pm
A few more details. 2558 miles total from initial fill to final fill in Cour de Lane and this trip I used 374.56 gallons. Drove faster up the hills made better time by three plus hours vs 412.31 gallons. Some Aquahot use and a small amount of genset use. In fact it was cold and we had snow on the ground both times. I would wake up turn on the generator to bulk charge the batteries four times for a total of ten hours or so. The Aquahot also ran both trips on diesel as well. I beat the average on Silverleaf by about the same amount as the actual gallons. I figured a bit less than 1 mpg and it worked out to a bit more the .75 on Silverleaf. 38 gallons times 4.19 saved me 159 bucks on the way out. If I save the same on the way home I will have paid 16 % of the cost in one trip.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on April 10, 2012, 08:53:06 pm
Post by: John S on April 10, 2012, 08:53:06 pm
They did mine two months after my back surgery. I was lucky to drive the 150 miles there and back. Took all my strength and the extra day was a blessing. I stayed over one more to rest. I could have done it yes but sometimes it is easier and cheaper to pay. Mine was odd and had to go around three batteries and still fit. They brought out a lot of parts to make it fit and there is only one piece of flex. They also had to weld on the frame a hanger to hold it up. So some setups are more complex than others.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave Head on April 10, 2012, 09:37:58 pm
Post by: Dave Head on April 10, 2012, 09:37:58 pm
So John 0 no real problems removing the driver's side panel? Just remove the vertical and horizontal trim pieces and then there a re screws under that that hold it in place?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on April 10, 2012, 09:41:07 pm
Post by: John S on April 10, 2012, 09:41:07 pm
I have removed the panel before on the other side but it is not just the removal of the panel. On most coaches, I think it would be an easy fix, on mine it was not so I had Cummins do it.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on April 10, 2012, 10:25:56 pm
Post by: Neal Pillsbury on April 10, 2012, 10:25:56 pm
..............................I've never done this type of exhaust work, but I can probably do it with some guidance and a recommended parts/tools list......................................
Peter
You're probably well aware, but I included a parts list, with prices, in my slide show:
http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=210 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=210)
When you look at my costs, bear in mind that we were obsessive about using ONLY 304SS materials (which increases longevity, but significantly increases cost). My son also designed and welded two hangers and a heavy gauge 304 SS tailpipe that eliminates the exhaust exit port and chrome plated tailpipe "short-half-life" issues.
I was one of the early mods and I have around 30K miles on the system now. I remain very pleased with the changes. As Dave and John and others have noted with the big blocks, the improved power and faster spool-up is distinct (and is certainly welcome in the 8.3). The deeper exhaust note is much more mellow and is minus the original hiss/wheeze (created by the original restrictions). As far as I can tell, there is improvement in the range of at least a half mi./gallon. It would be more if we weren't pulling the 9K trailer. Last fall, we hauled all of our "6 months in FL STUFF", plus the car, plus the Gold Wing all the way from NH to the Black Hills, to Albuquerque and then on to FL, averaging better fuel mileage than I had ever gotten before with the trailer in tow. I really should do up a spreadsheet of the Before/After changes. Just been too busy enjoying sunny FL. Among many other things, we put 8K on the bike this winter.
I got my son involved because I have little "hands on" welding experience/expertise and he's exceptionally talented. Other than that, you could do the same thing for similar cost.
Enjoy the journey! :D
Neal
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on April 10, 2012, 10:32:24 pm
Post by: John S on April 10, 2012, 10:32:24 pm
Yup, mine is welded too. It is one of the reasons I had Cummins do it. I will say that it makes mountains much easier to drive.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 10, 2012, 10:49:44 pm
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 10, 2012, 10:49:44 pm
Peter,
You're probably well aware, but I included a parts list, with prices, in my slide show:
http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=210 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=album;in=210) <snip>
Neal
Peter
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on April 10, 2012, 11:45:28 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on April 10, 2012, 11:45:28 pm
It is nice to have some of the parts welded BUT it is not really necessary if you have good hangers and proper bracing in the right places. You do not want it tight or vibrations/engine movement etc will soon cause cracks or worse still damage to connection at turbo. There has to be a bit of play in the system as I was told by a long time muffler guy.
Peter, the removal of side panel is not a problem (was not on my 2000) and yes it is held on by a series of screws around the perimeter and a couple holding the bottom edge in place. Just look at it and it makes sense what has to come off. If I were you I would not bother with trying to get all the bits you will use till you take the old stuff off and just replicate what was there without the muffler. Maybe buy the resonator as this will help you in figuring out your design and what length of pipe and flex you will need. I put the res' just before the tailpipe so I could hang it easily as that was the heaviest piece. I used about 48" of stainless flex from turbo then an elbow and then a 4-5" coupling that was fabricated by the muffler shop for me, so I had 5" from flex out to end. The res' I used was the Fleetguard one from Cummins. Works good.
I will be taking mine back off to do the rear end synthetic oil replacement soon as I cannot work under the coach with my back, so 30mins taking it off to me is better, and while it is off I will be replacing my air cond' dryer and a few other things that are easy to do with the space made.
John H
Peter, the removal of side panel is not a problem (was not on my 2000) and yes it is held on by a series of screws around the perimeter and a couple holding the bottom edge in place. Just look at it and it makes sense what has to come off. If I were you I would not bother with trying to get all the bits you will use till you take the old stuff off and just replicate what was there without the muffler. Maybe buy the resonator as this will help you in figuring out your design and what length of pipe and flex you will need. I put the res' just before the tailpipe so I could hang it easily as that was the heaviest piece. I used about 48" of stainless flex from turbo then an elbow and then a 4-5" coupling that was fabricated by the muffler shop for me, so I had 5" from flex out to end. The res' I used was the Fleetguard one from Cummins. Works good.
I will be taking mine back off to do the rear end synthetic oil replacement soon as I cannot work under the coach with my back, so 30mins taking it off to me is better, and while it is off I will be replacing my air cond' dryer and a few other things that are easy to do with the space made.
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Barry Beam on April 12, 2012, 01:04:02 am
Post by: Barry Beam on April 12, 2012, 01:04:02 am
I had my old muffler removed and replaced with an Aero AT5050XL 5 inch resonator.
I decided this job was better left to someone else who would have the correct pipe and fittings. After deciding the trouble it would be for me to find the exact parts needed to replace the muffler.
I found the Aero AT5050XL on Ebay for $103.00
eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & (http://www.ebay.com/itm/180803708260?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649) and took it to Freightliner in Ontario CA.
They charged $703 Parts and Labor. Total cost for Replacement $806.00 Took less than 4 hours.
The parts for my install is
- 10 inches of 5 inch stainless flex from turbo
-connected to a 90 degree 5 inch elbow
-connected to a 45 degree 5 inch elbow
-connected to a Aero 5050XL Resonator
-connected to a 5 inch chrome exhaust tip
-several new clamps and a couple of new hangers, which was used to reach the bracket that held the old muffler.
DB before replacement was 93 - 95 db and after there was no change in db but a nicer sounding growl. 8)
Photos of install Exhaust System Replacement - 2003 U320 (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/exhaust_system_replacement-2003_u320.html)
I will check out performance & MPG increase if any on the way to Benson AZ Bluegrass Festival in a couple of weeks.
I decided this job was better left to someone else who would have the correct pipe and fittings. After deciding the trouble it would be for me to find the exact parts needed to replace the muffler.
I found the Aero AT5050XL on Ebay for $103.00
eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & (http://www.ebay.com/itm/180803708260?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649) and took it to Freightliner in Ontario CA.
They charged $703 Parts and Labor. Total cost for Replacement $806.00 Took less than 4 hours.
The parts for my install is
- 10 inches of 5 inch stainless flex from turbo
-connected to a 90 degree 5 inch elbow
-connected to a 45 degree 5 inch elbow
-connected to a Aero 5050XL Resonator
-connected to a 5 inch chrome exhaust tip
-several new clamps and a couple of new hangers, which was used to reach the bracket that held the old muffler.
DB before replacement was 93 - 95 db and after there was no change in db but a nicer sounding growl. 8)
Photos of install Exhaust System Replacement - 2003 U320 (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/exhaust_system_replacement-2003_u320.html)
I will check out performance & MPG increase if any on the way to Benson AZ Bluegrass Festival in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Don & Tys on April 12, 2012, 01:48:27 am
Post by: Don & Tys on April 12, 2012, 01:48:27 am
Great pics! The sound clips clearly show that the resonator has a deeper, more mellow tone to it... At least at idle/fast idle. Could you here a difference on the drive home?
Don
P.S. Ty's and I had great fun meeting up with you in person and checking out your beautiful coach... I got a lot of great ideas for mods for ours seeing yours and talking to you. We hope to be able to attend a Foretravel rally of some sort before too long and maybe we will see you there...
Don
P.S. Ty's and I had great fun meeting up with you in person and checking out your beautiful coach... I got a lot of great ideas for mods for ours seeing yours and talking to you. We hope to be able to attend a Foretravel rally of some sort before too long and maybe we will see you there...
I had my old muffler removed and replaced with an Aero AT5050XL 5 inch resonator.
I decided this job was better left to someone else who would have the correct pipe and fittings. After deciding the trouble it would be for me to find the exact parts needed to replace the muffler.
I found the Aero AT5050XL on Ebay for $103.00
eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & (http://www.ebay.com/itm/180803708260?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649) and took it to Freightliner in Ontario CA.
They charged $703 Parts and Labor. Total cost for Replacement $806.00 Took less than 4 hours.
The parts for my install is
- 10 inches of 5 inch stainless flex from turbo
-connected to a 90 degree 5 inch elbow
-connected to a 45 degree 5 inch elbow
-connected to a Aero 5050XL Resonator
-connected to a 5 inch chrome exhaust tip
-several new clamps and a couple of new hangers, which was used to reach the bracket that held the old muffler.
DB before replacement was 93 - 95 db and after there was no change in db but a nicer sounding growl. 8)
Photos of install Exhaust System Replacement - 2003 U320 (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/exhaust_system_replacement-2003_u320.html)
I will check out performance & MPG increase if any on the way to Benson AZ Bluegrass Festival in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Barry Beam on April 12, 2012, 08:09:07 am
Post by: Barry Beam on April 12, 2012, 08:09:07 am
Great pics! The sound clips clearly show that the resonator has a deeper, more mellow tone to it... At least at idle/fast idle. Could you here a difference on the drive home?
Don
P.S. Ty's and I had great fun meeting up with you in person and checking out your beautiful coach... I got a lot of great ideas for mods for ours seeing yours and talking to you. We hope to be able to attend a Foretravel rally of some sort before too long and maybe we will see you there...
It was worth the drive down.
If you ever need a job I am sure Wayne Musser at the factory would hire you in an instant. ^.^d
When I opened the window I could hear a definite mellower tone, otherwise I don't hear anything.
I did not realize how open it was going to be after I took out the muffler.
It will be great to be able to get to the batteries to clean terminals without being a contortionist. ???
After looking at others who have done this mod, I think this one was probably the easiest to do with the least parts.
Sooo Steve and Michelle you are next. Piece of cake.
As previously said by others "Why did I not do this sooner"
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 12, 2012, 08:30:03 am
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 12, 2012, 08:30:03 am
Barry, I am delighted to see so many starting to realize and enjoy the resonator, I did mine last fall and was immeadiately impressed as first trip out was with the toad, big big improvement on first hill.
Now that I got you into the improved power, next will be the change from the 450 to 500 hp with the 1550 ft lb, that is when the combo of resonator and upgraded hp comes alive, so be warned, like John S has became a beleiver.
Actually it is a non brainer, it works.
Enjoy
Dave M
Now that I got you into the improved power, next will be the change from the 450 to 500 hp with the 1550 ft lb, that is when the combo of resonator and upgraded hp comes alive, so be warned, like John S has became a beleiver.
Actually it is a non brainer, it works.
Enjoy
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 12, 2012, 10:14:39 am
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 12, 2012, 10:14:39 am
Barry,
Thanks for the excellent presentation on replacing the muffler with a resonator. I played the audios while sitting here reviewing messages. Marilyn was favorably impressed with the new sound, and with the benefits of more power and better fuel mileage. One of her questions was, "Would FOT perform such a conversion?" She has been very pleased with the work they have done for us, and prefers to go there for any service on the coach.
I called FOT to see if they would do a muffler conversion. Billie Jack is checking and will call me back. You folk at Camp FT might ask him about the conversion as well. Multiple inquiries might promote a more positive response. ;) Some of us like to understand how to do things, but are better off letting the experts actually do the work. :D
Thanks for the excellent presentation on replacing the muffler with a resonator. I played the audios while sitting here reviewing messages. Marilyn was favorably impressed with the new sound, and with the benefits of more power and better fuel mileage. One of her questions was, "Would FOT perform such a conversion?" She has been very pleased with the work they have done for us, and prefers to go there for any service on the coach.
I called FOT to see if they would do a muffler conversion. Billie Jack is checking and will call me back. You folk at Camp FT might ask him about the conversion as well. Multiple inquiries might promote a more positive response. ;) Some of us like to understand how to do things, but are better off letting the experts actually do the work. :D
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on April 12, 2012, 11:00:42 am
Post by: John S on April 12, 2012, 11:00:42 am
Yes, I am a believer and am thinking of doing the HP upgrade too.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Michelle on April 12, 2012, 11:11:12 am
Post by: Michelle on April 12, 2012, 11:11:12 am
I called FOT to see if they would do a muffler conversion. Billie Jack is checking and will call me back. You folk at Camp FT might ask him about the conversion as well. Multiple inquiries might promote a more positive response. ;)
Funny story - I stopped to see Billy Jack this AM and he was on the phone. Waved me into his office, told the person on the other end he'd have to ask some questions and get back to them. Wrote their phone number and "Stevens, Dave" after it, got off the phone, looked at me and said "that darned forum!". :))
I came back to the coach to see what you might have been inquiring about and saw your post.
We've looked and listened to Barry's write up (I agree with Marilyn on the sound). We just need to find how to best get the work done.
Michelle
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: wa_desert_rat on April 12, 2012, 11:15:23 am
Post by: wa_desert_rat on April 12, 2012, 11:15:23 am
I had my old muffler removed and replaced with an Aero AT5050XL 5 inch resonator.
I noticed that they offer both "resonators" and "mufflers". The AT5050XL is described as a "muffler". For my U225 they have an AR30 "Resonator" for $102.75 and a 3030XL "Muffler" for $170.80.
Here is the page I'm looking at: CAMARO DUAL OUTLET PERFORMANCE MUFFLER 2 1 2 IN OUT items in OurDealsRock store (http://stores.ebay.com/OurDealsRock/Performance-Mufflers-/_i.html?_fsub=15352787&_sid=666871476&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322)
I guess my question is: What's the difference between the "muffler" and the "resonator" (besides pricing)? And which one will give the best performance?
Barry: Why did you choose the "muffler" configuration?
Craig
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Barry Beam on April 12, 2012, 11:47:13 am
Post by: Barry Beam on April 12, 2012, 11:47:13 am
I noticed that they offer both "resonators" and "mufflers". The AT5050XL is described as a "muffler".
I guess my question is: What's the difference between the "muffler" and the "resonator" (besides pricing)? And which one will give the best performance?
Barry: Why did you choose the "muffler" configuration?
Craig
The Ebay description showed this to be a Aero Turbine Performance Muffler 5" Inlet and 5" Outlet with Resonator
eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & (http://www.ebay.com/itm/180803708260?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 12, 2012, 12:05:08 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 12, 2012, 12:05:08 pm
There are many designs for resonators and mufflers, so if you want to digest some of the info, go to this webpage and have a ball.
Walker Commercial Vehicle - Solutions From the Industry Leader (http://www.walkerheavyduty.com/)
Enjoy
Dave M
Walker Commercial Vehicle - Solutions From the Industry Leader (http://www.walkerheavyduty.com/)
Enjoy
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 12, 2012, 12:34:15 pm
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 12, 2012, 12:34:15 pm
... I called FOT to see if they would do a muffler conversion. ...
No, FOT will not replace the OEM muffler with a resonator. There are warranty issues and issues raised by their status as a builder of coaches. They will do an OEM style replacement, but not a significant modification.
I look forward to recommendations of folk who find good places to have the conversion done.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on April 12, 2012, 12:39:45 pm
Post by: John S on April 12, 2012, 12:39:45 pm
Funny that Cummins had no issues and they make the engine and they make the resonator too. The difference is so startling that it must be some reason that we do not know about that they will not do it.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 12, 2012, 01:01:55 pm
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 12, 2012, 01:01:55 pm
... I look forward to recommendations of folk who find good places to have the conversion done.
Comments? Alternatives?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Michelle on April 12, 2012, 01:25:32 pm
Post by: Michelle on April 12, 2012, 01:25:32 pm
Comments? Alternatives?
Maybe a performance exhaust/muffler shop? Things like a Magnaflow or Flowmaster, and some nice stacks are popular pickup truck mods. If the lot is large enough to maneuver the coach in and out easily they could probably do it.
We might check out Haden's Muffler Shop, Nacogdoches TX 75961 (http://www.merchantcircle.com/business/Hadens.Muffler.Shop.936-569-9494) here in Nac.
Michelle
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave Head on April 12, 2012, 01:36:51 pm
Post by: Dave Head on April 12, 2012, 01:36:51 pm
I'm certain Rudy would speak with them if you asked...
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on April 12, 2012, 03:01:24 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on April 12, 2012, 03:01:24 pm
funny how things go around. A neighbor of mine just returned from a 5 month trip and most of it in Quartzsite Arizona. He had listened to me last year about me replacing the muffler so while he was there he had bought an Aero 4040 res' and had a Mexican shop replace and remove and, cost was $200 all in for labour. He has a Dutch Star with a Cummins 5.9 and he states that it was an unbelievable change in both power and exhaust heat. Here is another "new believer".
I think I will open a resonator upgrade shop here and charge $300 to do it!!
John H
I think I will open a resonator upgrade shop here and charge $300 to do it!!
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 12, 2012, 03:26:36 pm
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 12, 2012, 03:26:36 pm
I think I will open a resonator upgrade shop here and charge $300 to do it!!
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 12, 2012, 04:04:59 pm
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 12, 2012, 04:04:59 pm
Sold! Now...Do you make house calls? It's only about 2,500 miles and less that 300 gallons of fuel! Or, we can split the difference and meet in Billings, Montana?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: wa_desert_rat on April 12, 2012, 04:18:06 pm
Post by: wa_desert_rat on April 12, 2012, 04:18:06 pm
John has to go right past my house on his way to Billings. He can spend the night here at my shop and do my coach then be on his way. :)
Craig
Craig
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on April 12, 2012, 10:32:29 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on April 12, 2012, 10:32:29 pm
well I do have room for 3 motorhomes in the driveway so it is your call, I do not do house calls but the location and view of lake here is beautiful. Plus we have over 165 wineries, and maybe 20 golf courses within an hour of the house so the waiting time can be very enjoyable.
John
John
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 12, 2012, 10:47:00 pm
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 12, 2012, 10:47:00 pm
Well I just got my renewed passport from the US State Department, so I can legally get there and back...I think. Sounds like a plan...
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: TheBrays on April 13, 2012, 08:12:27 am
Post by: TheBrays on April 13, 2012, 08:12:27 am
There are many designs for resonators and mufflers, so if you want to digest some of the info, go to this webpage and have a ball.
Walker Commercial Vehicle - Solutions From the Industry Leader (http://www.walkerheavyduty.com/)
Enjoy
Dave M
There IS much more than I want to know here but one interesting tidbit that caught my eye was
'On exhaust systems with piping exceeding 10 feet in length,
the muffler is suggested to be installed where the exhaust pipe to the muffler is either
one-half or four times the length of the tail pipe'
Something about standing waves I suspect.
hth
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Gayland Baasch on April 14, 2012, 09:52:08 am
Post by: Gayland Baasch on April 14, 2012, 09:52:08 am
What am I missing here? Why are all the new bends, flex tubing, etc required? Can't you just take out the muffler and insert the resonator, with additional extension?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Barry Beam on April 14, 2012, 11:11:09 am
Post by: Barry Beam on April 14, 2012, 11:11:09 am
What am I missing here? Why are all the new bends, flex tubing, etc required? Can't you just take out the muffler and insert the resonator, with additional extension?
The resonator is a different size and it needed to be horizontal. The additional bends and flex were needed to properly mount it in the best way possible. I also wanted to replace the existing elbows due to rust and seemed a good time to do it. Looking at these photos Exhaust System Replacement - 2003 U320 (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/exhaust_system_replacement-2003_u320.html) it shows the resonator could not be put where the muffler was.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Tom Lang on April 14, 2012, 02:18:34 pm
Post by: Tom Lang on April 14, 2012, 02:18:34 pm
Has anyone done the resonator for muffler replacement on a U295 with the ISL400 engine? I'd like to see photos and know which resonator was chosen.
Thanks, Tom
Thanks, Tom
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on April 14, 2012, 08:47:29 pm
Post by: John S on April 14, 2012, 08:47:29 pm
Funny they blame the forum. FOT was late to the headlight upgrades too. I don't know why they will not do it for an owner. Cummins warranties the engine nd they will do it. I wonder how long till a lot of the FT do this. We will hear it when they pull in at camp FT.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Michelle on April 14, 2012, 09:55:29 pm
Post by: Michelle on April 14, 2012, 09:55:29 pm
Funny they blame the forum.
No, they didn't blame the forum. I apologize if anyone interpreted it that way. Billy Jack was just kidding around with me about how quickly ideas and inspiration spreads thanks to the forum.
I can understand the concern with doing the mod from their perspective. They deliver the coach with a particular engine/exhaust package as originally spec'd by Cummins. For them to modify said OEM package could be interpreted by someone as the OEM not being optimal or some such thing. I doubt you could get a car dealer to install aftermarket/performance exhaust components, either, but there are plenty of shops that specialize in mods.
Now back to your regularly-scheduled resonator discussion ;)
Michelle
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 14, 2012, 10:11:48 pm
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 14, 2012, 10:11:48 pm
... I doubt you could get a car dealer to install aftermarket/performance exhaust components, either, but there are plenty of shops that specialize in mods. ...
Billie Jack was sympathetic with the idea. He has been pleased with performance improvements from similar modifications to his dually pickup truck.
Here in our small, rural community there are lots of pickup trucks with "chipped up," loud, smoking diesel engines. There are some of them with dual 5" stacks. :P :facepalm: I expect the young men who drive those beasts could direct me to someone who could do a simple muffler replacement in a roomy engine compartment.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on April 14, 2012, 11:47:02 pm
Post by: John S on April 14, 2012, 11:47:02 pm
I understand what you are saying. I guess, I have two jeeps and the dealers around us will do modifications. In fact they are selling a lifted wrangler and I looked at buying it.... It is a bit louder than the old set up as well. I am glad I was mistaken about Billy Jack. I am also very happy that the forum is working as it should and information makes it around to the owners and FOT knows how quickly it does get around.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Gayland Baasch on April 15, 2012, 08:52:56 pm
Post by: Gayland Baasch on April 15, 2012, 08:52:56 pm
Well, as few miles as I put on, not sure this is worthwhile, but I needed a project! Note: There's a lot of difference in the different models but here is what I learned so far on mine.
1. Taking the side panel off is pretty easy. I cut the top trim at the joint rather than take off the whole length. It was an easy job with a dremel cut off wheel. The biggest problem I had was the two screws on the underside of the panel that stabilize the radiator there (I don't know what this radiator is for). Allen head screws, size 5 I think. One side broke loose, the other side I used Mr Dremel again to square the head so I could get a vise grip on it. The panel on the right side does go behind the back piece about 6 inches, but just pulls out forward. Most of the fasteners were badly rusted and several were not holding anything. Also the caulking did not present any problem, the panel just pulled loose from it.
2. To get the muffler out, I messed around trying to get the clamps loose with no luck. As it turned out, all I needed to do was put a support under the muffler, cut the two bolts that hold the clamps around the muffler. The whole works then just dropped down, separating itself where the top clamp hooks on to the solid pipe that comes from the turbo. Your results may vary if it doesn't want to separate there.
1. Taking the side panel off is pretty easy. I cut the top trim at the joint rather than take off the whole length. It was an easy job with a dremel cut off wheel. The biggest problem I had was the two screws on the underside of the panel that stabilize the radiator there (I don't know what this radiator is for). Allen head screws, size 5 I think. One side broke loose, the other side I used Mr Dremel again to square the head so I could get a vise grip on it. The panel on the right side does go behind the back piece about 6 inches, but just pulls out forward. Most of the fasteners were badly rusted and several were not holding anything. Also the caulking did not present any problem, the panel just pulled loose from it.
2. To get the muffler out, I messed around trying to get the clamps loose with no luck. As it turned out, all I needed to do was put a support under the muffler, cut the two bolts that hold the clamps around the muffler. The whole works then just dropped down, separating itself where the top clamp hooks on to the solid pipe that comes from the turbo. Your results may vary if it doesn't want to separate there.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on April 15, 2012, 10:06:45 pm
Post by: John S on April 15, 2012, 10:06:45 pm
Interesting, you muffler looks different than mine did. Mine was squat and round.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on April 15, 2012, 10:22:37 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on April 15, 2012, 10:22:37 pm
Gayland, good for you to get into this. See how easy it is to work with the panel off? The rad' is for the a/c (it is on mine) and you may have a dryer attached to it. Good time to change this too if you are having any problems with the dash air. The pressure has to be released on the R134a. If the right end of panel was attatched the same as mine there is a strip of alum' moulding that the screws going thru' the 2 pieces act as a clamp to hold the panel and end cap together, you may want to clean it up real good and caulk it on the inside of panel prior to putting the panel in place to close up. Align the screw holes on the strip and let sit overnight. As John S said yours is so different than mine too, as it was a squat canister, 4" in and 5" out. Good luck with the rest and enjoy the results
John H
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 15, 2012, 11:49:59 pm
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 15, 2012, 11:49:59 pm
Interesting, you muffler looks different than mine did. Mine was squat and round.
Gayland, thanks for the good pictures and description.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Gayland Baasch on April 16, 2012, 12:14:33 am
Post by: Gayland Baasch on April 16, 2012, 12:14:33 am
My batteries aren't in this area so maybe that's what makes them different. I've seen estimates of these things weighing up to 100 lbs, but I doubt that this whole setup was 30 lbs.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave Katsuki on April 16, 2012, 03:10:29 am
Post by: Dave Katsuki on April 16, 2012, 03:10:29 am
Interesting! Your rear panel and AC condenser setup looks just like ours, but the muffler is tiny, compared to the trash-can sized one I took off. I bet replacing that muffler with a resonator will net you some significant added power!
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Gayland Baasch on April 16, 2012, 10:47:52 am
Post by: Gayland Baasch on April 16, 2012, 10:47:52 am
Yes, I saw the picture of two of you lugging yours out. Most of the pictures I've seen of the area have a big black plastic item (air intake?) in the area my muffler sat. Mine doesn't have that.
Did you stay with 4" throughout, or were did you convert to 5"?
Did you stay with 4" throughout, or were did you convert to 5"?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on April 16, 2012, 12:49:39 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on April 16, 2012, 12:49:39 pm
On mine (like Dave's) was 4" in to muffler and 5" out so I stayed 4" from Turbo and after the flex from it I converted up to 5" by way of a coupling (custom made to suit) to go to Res which was 5" and on out.
Our mufflers were quite restrictive in design, yours looks more of a flow thru one.
John
Our mufflers were quite restrictive in design, yours looks more of a flow thru one.
John
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave Katsuki on April 16, 2012, 11:53:12 pm
Post by: Dave Katsuki on April 16, 2012, 11:53:12 pm
And I did the same - 4" flex to 4"->5" to 5" resonator and 5" to the tailpipe.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck Pearson on April 17, 2012, 07:57:12 am
Post by: Chuck Pearson on April 17, 2012, 07:57:12 am
I was looking at mine yesterday and idly wondering if it might be possible to sweep the flex down and around from turbo, directly into resonator...maybe moving resonator back a bit if necessary. Those 90's and 45's are restrictive in their own right. Has anyone considered doing this?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 17, 2012, 09:06:52 am
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 17, 2012, 09:06:52 am
The exhaust could be rerouted directly out thru the left side of coach reducing the restriction even further and saving money too. :)
Dave M
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 17, 2012, 10:33:59 am
Post by: J. D. Stevens on April 17, 2012, 10:33:59 am
What happens if we install a straight pipe and do not include the resonator? I expect it is a bit louder. Has anyone tried it?
While we were traveling on Interstate highways yesterday, sometimes I would hear what sounded like the engine making more noise than usual. It was always that pickup truck in the left lane. They were often louder that our coach before they were even with the engine in our coach! I don't want to emulate those vehicles.
While we were traveling on Interstate highways yesterday, sometimes I would hear what sounded like the engine making more noise than usual. It was always that pickup truck in the left lane. They were often louder that our coach before they were even with the engine in our coach! I don't want to emulate those vehicles.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on April 17, 2012, 12:13:09 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on April 17, 2012, 12:13:09 pm
Chuck, I do not see the 45's and 90's as being as big a restriction as more footage of flex. If you look at the inside of flex, because of it's nature there are many "ribs" to allow it to change shape that untill they fill up with soot and carbon are more restrictive than a smooth elbow. You can, by "shaping" the flex right maybe get away with just a 45!!!
JD, to answer your question of not using a resonator--try it!! I also have a feeling that changing the shape (ie instead of cutting the tailpipe end square-try a curved shape) may change the sound of the exhaust by altering the sound waves on exit!!
Any scientists/engineers on board to figure that one out??
John H
JD, to answer your question of not using a resonator--try it!! I also have a feeling that changing the shape (ie instead of cutting the tailpipe end square-try a curved shape) may change the sound of the exhaust by altering the sound waves on exit!!
Any scientists/engineers on board to figure that one out??
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: sgkarnes on April 17, 2012, 10:28:34 pm
Post by: sgkarnes on April 17, 2012, 10:28:34 pm
I did the sweep with 4" flex into a 4 to 5 increaser into a 5" turn down about 36" long,,,,bout 2 years ago (20k miles) quicker spool,,less heat..noticeable power increase,,little increase in noise...
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: 96u270 on April 17, 2012, 11:11:59 pm
Post by: 96u270 on April 17, 2012, 11:11:59 pm
Straight piped mine.. 4'' all the way out 2 my FT tip. Big diff in power and my egt runs around 200 to 300* cooler as per my dash gage. But the trade off is the engine noise.. I can not tell up front but if I open the window while driving under a overpass it's LOUD,,most of it sounds like the turbo spooling up and down.. I have a Dodge 6.7 Cummins diesel that's fixing to roll 200k and I straight piped it a long time ago, Never hurt anything
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 18, 2012, 02:48:14 am
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 18, 2012, 02:48:14 am
Yes, the resonator takes the harshness away, leaves the straight pipe effect with zero restriction.
I found the effect using a 8V-92, straight pipe was too harsh, with resonator, just right without the harshness.
Cave M
I found the effect using a 8V-92, straight pipe was too harsh, with resonator, just right without the harshness.
Cave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck Pearson on April 18, 2012, 08:54:23 am
Post by: Chuck Pearson on April 18, 2012, 08:54:23 am
Thinking back to the hot rod days, a rule of thumb is that one short 90 bend equals the restriction of 25 feet of straight pipe. While not exact, that's a pretty well accepted number among exhaust tuners. Exactly how this translates into backpressure is anyone's guess. A few other design considerations:
The perfect after turbo exhaust system for a diesel has zero restrictions giving the biggest pressure differential across the pump (turbo). Non turbo engines function best with a tuned exhaust with some backpressure which helps scavenge exhaust gases from the cylinders.
Here's the Donaldson site with hardware info, calculators, and flow rates for pretty much every diesel engine. http://www.donaldson.com/en/exhaust/support/datalibrary/061237.pdf (http://www.donaldson.com/en/exhaust/support/datalibrary/061237.pdf)
According to their charts, my 6C 300 hp Cummins will flow 2140 CFM at full bore at 3000 rpm.
A straight pipe will flow approx 115 cfm per square inch of internal diameter with minimal restrictions.
So, 2140 CFM/115 = 18.6 square inches of circular area needed for inside of exhaust pipe. A 4" pipe has 12.56, a 5" pipe has 19". These numbers are for minimal backpressure. Interestingly enough, looking at what looks to be the OEM Donaldson muffler presently installed, and the flow ratings for it, I'm showing that just the muffler is creating more than 3"Hg backpressure. I'm pretty surprised to see that 4" pipe is marginal, would have thought it was plenty.
Based on these numbers, you guys sensing a power increase from the changeout are most definitely not imagining it. I'm going to go for less than 1"Hg backpressure. Looks like it will be 5" pipe, if I can do it without 90 ells, will do so.
The perfect after turbo exhaust system for a diesel has zero restrictions giving the biggest pressure differential across the pump (turbo). Non turbo engines function best with a tuned exhaust with some backpressure which helps scavenge exhaust gases from the cylinders.
Here's the Donaldson site with hardware info, calculators, and flow rates for pretty much every diesel engine. http://www.donaldson.com/en/exhaust/support/datalibrary/061237.pdf (http://www.donaldson.com/en/exhaust/support/datalibrary/061237.pdf)
According to their charts, my 6C 300 hp Cummins will flow 2140 CFM at full bore at 3000 rpm.
A straight pipe will flow approx 115 cfm per square inch of internal diameter with minimal restrictions.
So, 2140 CFM/115 = 18.6 square inches of circular area needed for inside of exhaust pipe. A 4" pipe has 12.56, a 5" pipe has 19". These numbers are for minimal backpressure. Interestingly enough, looking at what looks to be the OEM Donaldson muffler presently installed, and the flow ratings for it, I'm showing that just the muffler is creating more than 3"Hg backpressure. I'm pretty surprised to see that 4" pipe is marginal, would have thought it was plenty.
Based on these numbers, you guys sensing a power increase from the changeout are most definitely not imagining it. I'm going to go for less than 1"Hg backpressure. Looks like it will be 5" pipe, if I can do it without 90 ells, will do so.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on April 19, 2012, 09:59:24 pm
Post by: John S on April 19, 2012, 09:59:24 pm
Thanks Chuck, that was very informative. I do feel much more power and it is noticeable and you can see it on the silverleaf as well. I do not hear the resonator at all unless I am running next to a wall. If I am and it is close and high then I hear a low roar. I have a different sound at idle but not unpleasant and it runs so much better up the hills it is a shame FT will not figure out how to do this to all of the coaches.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Bobby Carter on April 20, 2012, 10:44:38 am
Post by: Bobby Carter on April 20, 2012, 10:44:38 am
J.D I am running with a straight pipe mine is quiter inside the coach a little more noise outside.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck Pearson on April 20, 2012, 12:04:41 pm
Post by: Chuck Pearson on April 20, 2012, 12:04:41 pm
The exhaust could be rerouted directly out thru the left side of coach reducing the restriction even further and saving money too. :)
Dave M
That got me to thinking back. A few years ago heading west from San Antonio in my Cummins powered pickup at a pretty good clip I started around a good sized coach. Apparently he wasn't having any of it because he hit the go pedal and absolutely left me in the dust. In addition, the driver had no fear of the law either as I could hang behind him but no way could I pass. I did notice it had a side exhaust, a big one. Very impressive. That was before my interest in motorhomes so I didn't note the make. It was a fiberglass body, not a conversion.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on April 25, 2012, 07:34:29 am
Post by: John S on April 25, 2012, 07:34:29 am
I kept 50 mph up cumberland gap on I 68 and that was great. Out west on I 90 and in Montana and WY I never got below 60 on any grade and that one time I did, was because a truck was in front of me and was going slowly up the grade. I pulled over after the three cars passed and accelerated past him. Now, what I want to know is why there an be no cars around for 50 miles plus and right when you want to move over you have to wait for them to pass.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 25, 2012, 08:32:04 am
Post by: Peter & Beth on April 25, 2012, 08:32:04 am
Quote
Now, what I want to know is why there are no cars around for 50 miles plus and right when you want to move over you have to wait for them to pass.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 25, 2012, 11:33:22 am
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 25, 2012, 11:33:22 am
The beauty of the ISM 450 or 500 with the resonator is that you can pickup and pass when the lane clears up. Ever been in that situation, lane clears and you can not pull out and pass ? That is not a joyful thought for me. My thoughts run to mo power. ;D :o
Happy thoughts
Dave M
Happy thoughts
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: gordon cole on April 25, 2012, 02:31:18 pm
Post by: gordon cole on April 25, 2012, 02:31:18 pm
With the resonator conversion, it looks like the exhaust is closer to the rubber boot on what I assume is the air intake. Anyone have any problem with heat deterioration? Thanks
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Caflashbob on April 25, 2012, 02:41:55 pm
Post by: Caflashbob on April 25, 2012, 02:41:55 pm
The beauty of the ISM 450 or 500 with the resonator is that you can pickup and pass when the lane clears up. Ever been in that situation, lane clears and you can not pull out and pass ? That is not a joyful thought for me. My thoughts run to mo power. ;D :o
Happy thoughts
Dave M
What exact parts are needed to change my 97 450M?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 25, 2012, 03:10:23 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 25, 2012, 03:10:23 pm
Bob, There are few parts needed, a flex, a resonator, band clamps, maybe a 90 deg el, and/or a 45 deg , some straight pipe from origional can be used. It just takes getting into it and doing it or having it done.
Seems everyone that does the M11 or ISM is sorry they did not do it sooner.
Most laugh going up the hills, you can save fuel if you are strong willed and stay out of the throttle, however most just floor it and laugh passing everything. :o ;D
Dave M
Seems everyone that does the M11 or ISM is sorry they did not do it sooner.
Most laugh going up the hills, you can save fuel if you are strong willed and stay out of the throttle, however most just floor it and laugh passing everything. :o ;D
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 25, 2012, 03:16:39 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 25, 2012, 03:16:39 pm
Gordon, the relationship to the air intake vs exhaust needs to be paid attention to, if you can not install with good clearance then I would find something to shield it. I run the ISM 500 and the resonator is fairly near, I have pushed it on mountains with no issues.
Dave M
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: gordon cole on April 25, 2012, 04:58:30 pm
Post by: gordon cole on April 25, 2012, 04:58:30 pm
Thanks Dave. I plan to install some reflective material on the air intake system and possible wrap the exhaust pipe (although I do have some concern that wrapping the exhaust may just move the heat down to the resonator). It is good to know you have not had any problems.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Tom Lang on April 25, 2012, 06:53:06 pm
Post by: Tom Lang on April 25, 2012, 06:53:06 pm
Any with experience adding a resonator to an ISL 400?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 25, 2012, 08:48:00 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 25, 2012, 08:48:00 pm
If I had the ISL, it would have the resonator for sure. From what I gather, reading the comments, the C 8.3 Series gains nicely, the ISL is larger than the C 8.3, so that should be a good move. Not seen anything about the 5.9 Cummins w/resonator. Would be a good step for the DD 6V-92 boys too.
Dave M
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Kent Speers on April 25, 2012, 08:51:12 pm
Post by: Kent Speers on April 25, 2012, 08:51:12 pm
Boy, I'm probably going regret this because many of my favorite forum members have made the change to the resonator, but I think they sound terrible. They certainly don't sound like the refined machine that is a Foretravel. They are fine at idle but when they are revved up leaving a campground they sound guttural, like a bulldozer or something. Sorry! Please forgive me but everyone has their own opinion.
I was told by a senior tech rep for Cummins that the Cummins engines under 400hp would not be appreciable improved by removing the stock mufflers used by Foretravel. Our mufflers are relatively high flow, low restriction mufflers. He said it would not make any improvement to the 230hp, B5.9 used in the U225s. It wouldn't hurt but it wouldn't help either.
Now, with all of that said, I wonder what my Detroit 6V92 would sound like?
I was told by a senior tech rep for Cummins that the Cummins engines under 400hp would not be appreciable improved by removing the stock mufflers used by Foretravel. Our mufflers are relatively high flow, low restriction mufflers. He said it would not make any improvement to the 230hp, B5.9 used in the U225s. It wouldn't hurt but it wouldn't help either.
Now, with all of that said, I wonder what my Detroit 6V92 would sound like?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 25, 2012, 09:10:07 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 25, 2012, 09:10:07 pm
Kent, It would sound great and run better, but I understand keeping it normal. I doubt the low restriction on the Cowl muffler FT uses, if it were a low restriction, noone would be seeing the hugh improvement in overall power.
As for the Cummins chap, I and others laugh at his comment about it not helping, there are a few with the 8.3 who love em. I am opinated too ;D
Hope your back is getting better and better.
I am the lucky puppy with the heart operation, 3 1/2 days in hospital & go home. Still hurts a little when I sneeze, otherwise all great.
Dave M
As for the Cummins chap, I and others laugh at his comment about it not helping, there are a few with the 8.3 who love em. I am opinated too ;D
Hope your back is getting better and better.
I am the lucky puppy with the heart operation, 3 1/2 days in hospital & go home. Still hurts a little when I sneeze, otherwise all great.
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Michelle on April 25, 2012, 09:21:23 pm
Post by: Michelle on April 25, 2012, 09:21:23 pm
I had my old muffler removed and replaced with an Aero AT5050XL 5 inch resonator.
DB before replacement was 93 - 95 db and after there was no change in db but a nicer sounding growl. 8)
Photos of install Exhaust System Replacement - 2003 U320 (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/exhaust_system_replacement-2003_u320.html)
Thanks for paving the way. Steve just bought an Aero AT5050XL via eBay for our coach. I particularly liked the sound files you posted for comparison - the Aero sounded more pleasing to my ear. A richer sound, slightly lower pitch than the stock muffler. Steve liked the improved chassis battery accessibility.
Michelle
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: txforetravel on April 25, 2012, 09:26:17 pm
Post by: txforetravel on April 25, 2012, 09:26:17 pm
I guess I missed the post with the "sound" comparison. Where did you hear the difference?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Caflashbob on April 25, 2012, 09:28:49 pm
Post by: Caflashbob on April 25, 2012, 09:28:49 pm
Bob, There are few parts needed, a flex, a resonator, band clamps, maybe a 90 deg el, and/or a 45 deg , some straight pipe from origional can be used. It just takes getting into it and doing it or having it done.
Seems everyone that does the M11 or ISM is sorry they did not do it sooner.
Most laugh going up the hills, you can save fuel if you are strong willed and stay out of the throttle, however most just floor it and laugh passing everything. :o ;D
Dave M
You have to understand my background in the Rv business. I was foretravels sales manager in california from 86 to late 89. Saw a lot of fun toys.
The original unicoach had a over chipped series 60 detroit that would do zero to 60 in 18 seconds. I had to ask people to hold on inside if I demoed them.
Funny part is that I had a trucker customer with a 8.3 38 and he told me he would only upgrade if I had a series 60 detroit like his trucks. It was hard to keep a straight face as I had him...
Tight skinflint with 10 million in the bank who wanted more power. Unfair of me.
Long story short he bought the coach at my price after grinding me and my gm for three days. Took delivery and after taking it out he told me it pulled 100mph UP canon pass out of riverside county.
He leaned over around a building corner and told me how much he liked the coach. I said "you realiy did not care what it cost, did you? As long as it scratched your itch? He looked around to see if anyone else was around and looked me in the eye and said "no"
He had a grin ear to ear you could not wipe off his face he told me. An old trucker with the fastest Rv made.
I miss Charlie Hobbs. Good guy.
Are we having fun yet? I understand the marine versions of the m11 celect plus are several hundred hp more than the Rv units. Hmmmmm
I used to take 300 cummins and take them to 409 hp and have the Allison guy sign the upgrade warranty form for the customer.
I am brave as long as these have enough cooling capacity like the boats. The 4060 will handle much more power in this lighter application. I think 600 hp is fairly easy with proper EGT monitoring. Better gas mileage always resulted.
My 450 red top seems like its being held back. The pipe is the start. You guys are in for it as I am a dice roller. Driven 700 hp 8v92's. Blew the blower off. Oh well.
More stories later
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Michelle on April 25, 2012, 09:40:03 pm
Post by: Michelle on April 25, 2012, 09:40:03 pm
I guess I missed the post with the "sound" comparison. Where did you hear the difference?
The page on Barry's site Exhaust System Replacement - 2003 U320 (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/exhaust_system_replacement-2003_u320.html)
Scroll down and there are some sound files of the before and after at regular and high idle. We had to download them in order to play them.
-M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dean & Dee on April 26, 2012, 01:07:29 pm
Post by: Dean & Dee on April 26, 2012, 01:07:29 pm
I too would be interested to hear the results from someone that's installed a resonator on a 400ISL. I really like the stock sound but if it would make that much difference in power and performance than it seems sensible as long as it isn't obnoxious sounding. I listened to heavy equipment roar for 30 years so I wouldn't be interested in that type of noise.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 26, 2012, 02:00:51 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on April 26, 2012, 02:00:51 pm
Interesting about the Unicoach using the 60 Series DD engine, I wonder what year model they played that game ?
Would guess it was way too heavy for the early Unicoach frame work, but I do not know, so am asking, maybe Mr. Barry Beam would have some info on that subject.
And yes I have also had experience with strung out DD 8V-92 making crazy power, but in a MCI Bus conversion, Also a 12V-71TT, that was way over the top, too much.
Dave M
Would guess it was way too heavy for the early Unicoach frame work, but I do not know, so am asking, maybe Mr. Barry Beam would have some info on that subject.
And yes I have also had experience with strung out DD 8V-92 making crazy power, but in a MCI Bus conversion, Also a 12V-71TT, that was way over the top, too much.
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Caflashbob on April 26, 2012, 10:00:07 pm
Post by: Caflashbob on April 26, 2012, 10:00:07 pm
Interesting about the Unicoach using the 60 Series DD engine, I wonder what year model they played that game ?
Would guess it was way too heavy for the early Unicoach frame work, but I do not know, so am asking, maybe Mr. Barry Beam would have some info on that subject.
And yes I have also had experience with strung out DD 8V-92 making crazy power, but in a MCI Bus conversion, Also a 12V-71TT, that was way over the top, too much.
Dave M
The dd series 60 was a one only as the coach payload was 1500 pounds. It also had long radiators along the sidewalls with hot antifreeze in them like a manual circulation aqua hot.
I tested it as I was curious and it worked great. Just took a lot of space up.
Wonder where that coach went? Fun fast. Time your coach zero to 60mph. A strong coach like the ored 300 cat 36 would do it in less than 30 seconds at 20,000 pounds. I remember a trucker up the grade on 40 into flagstaff telling his cb buddies to out run me up the hill. I passed them at 85mph up hill. The trucker said " grand villa, what are you running?" I remember telling him a 300 cat and twenty thousand pounds. He responded that that was not fair. 8 mpg at 90mph for hours. Broke it in for the woods as the next owner. A beaver marquis with the same 300 cat was 40 seconds. That meant 40mph up a 6 percent grade. Slow.....
You guys normally baby your rigs. Like you owned them versus mine were Foretavel owned demos. My bad... My only fringe benefit. Go rving on my days off. And I used them a lot. Why not?
Title: Our Aero muffler
Post by: Barry & Cindy on May 13, 2012, 12:19:26 am
Post by: Barry & Cindy on May 13, 2012, 12:19:26 am
We are installing Aero AT5050 Exhaust Resonator Turbine Muffler.
Our original exhaust was all 4" and we now have a short original piece of 4" attached to turbo and 5" from there to the back fiberglass exit hole. Since the fiberglass opening is still 4.5", we decided to temporarily use our 4" chrome tip attached to a 4" to 5" transition. Sometime later, we will remove the 4" tip, widen the fiberglass to 5.5" and bring 5" pipes out the rear.
Aero has two mufflers to choose from in the 5" range:
AT5050 which is 20" long x 7.5" diameter.
AT5050XL which is 30" long x 6" diameter.
AT4040 & AT4040XL are similar in the 4" range.
The 20" AT5050 fits better than the 30" XL in our coach.
Photos show comparison to original in side view and in in & out opening.
Our original exhaust was all 4" and we now have a short original piece of 4" attached to turbo and 5" from there to the back fiberglass exit hole. Since the fiberglass opening is still 4.5", we decided to temporarily use our 4" chrome tip attached to a 4" to 5" transition. Sometime later, we will remove the 4" tip, widen the fiberglass to 5.5" and bring 5" pipes out the rear.
Aero has two mufflers to choose from in the 5" range:
AT5050 which is 20" long x 7.5" diameter.
AT5050XL which is 30" long x 6" diameter.
AT4040 & AT4040XL are similar in the 4" range.
The 20" AT5050 fits better than the 30" XL in our coach.
Photos show comparison to original in side view and in in & out opening.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Barry & Cindy on May 13, 2012, 11:00:25 am
Post by: Barry & Cindy on May 13, 2012, 11:00:25 am
For comparison, our original muffler for our Cummins C-8.3 engine was 36" x 12".
Length from the rear end of the muffler to the center of the 4" round side entry connection was 32".
Length from the rear end of the muffler to the center of the 4" round side entry connection was 32".
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on May 13, 2012, 11:07:40 am
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on May 13, 2012, 11:07:40 am
Barry, I love the picture showing both the origional and the resonator, makes me laugh big.
A very large difference it heat radiation for sure.
Dave M
A very large difference it heat radiation for sure.
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 13, 2012, 12:22:46 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 13, 2012, 12:22:46 pm
Looks great! A 30" should fit our Detroit. Let us know how it sounds/works.
Yes, more heat out the exhaust, less in the compartment.
Pierce
Yes, more heat out the exhaust, less in the compartment.
Pierce
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Barry & Cindy on May 13, 2012, 11:37:43 pm
Post by: Barry & Cindy on May 13, 2012, 11:37:43 pm
Our Aero muffler installation is completed and the tail pipe sound is certainly different.
Almost all connections are welded air tight.
New engine bracket formed to support turbo pipe.
Two hangers support welded assembly.
Rear tail pipe through fiberglass hole is centered by two turnbuckles.
4" to 5" near turbo.
5" to 4" at rear tail piece (to be replaced with a 5" tip when we get the fiberglass hole expanded.
Thanks to the person who first recommended Aero and all who have blazed the path for us.
In a week we will see how it all performs on the road from Santa Fe to Durango.
Almost all connections are welded air tight.
New engine bracket formed to support turbo pipe.
Two hangers support welded assembly.
Rear tail pipe through fiberglass hole is centered by two turnbuckles.
4" to 5" near turbo.
5" to 4" at rear tail piece (to be replaced with a 5" tip when we get the fiberglass hole expanded.
Thanks to the person who first recommended Aero and all who have blazed the path for us.
In a week we will see how it all performs on the road from Santa Fe to Durango.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on May 14, 2012, 07:53:36 am
Post by: John S on May 14, 2012, 07:53:36 am
It will be interesting to see your results on an 8.3 ISC.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on May 14, 2012, 08:24:58 am
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on May 14, 2012, 08:24:58 am
Barry, Good looking installation. Don't take this wrong, I would not trust the screw type clamps and turn buckles holding the tail pipe, these clamps have a way of either stripping out or loosening. Just my two cents.
Gary B
Gary B
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Barry & Cindy on May 14, 2012, 11:15:55 am
Post by: Barry & Cindy on May 14, 2012, 11:15:55 am
Good eye Gary.
Our Aero replacement project was not planned for our Santa Fe stop and when the opportunity came up, I looked for parts and found one small shop that only had the shorter Aero in 5". He also had two 5" to 4" reducers, but nowhere in town could I find 5" muffler clamps, so we used hose clamps as a temporary clamp.
It appears that anyone planning to do the replacement needs to gather parts ahead of time as 5" may be difficult to find on short notice.
We will be replacing the hose/band clamps with muffler clamps.
The turnbuckles are just used to position the pipe in the center of the hole. They do not support anything.
Our Aero replacement project was not planned for our Santa Fe stop and when the opportunity came up, I looked for parts and found one small shop that only had the shorter Aero in 5". He also had two 5" to 4" reducers, but nowhere in town could I find 5" muffler clamps, so we used hose clamps as a temporary clamp.
It appears that anyone planning to do the replacement needs to gather parts ahead of time as 5" may be difficult to find on short notice.
We will be replacing the hose/band clamps with muffler clamps.
The turnbuckles are just used to position the pipe in the center of the hole. They do not support anything.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: TheBrays on May 16, 2012, 09:01:39 am
Post by: TheBrays on May 16, 2012, 09:01:39 am
Our Aero muffler installation is completed and the tail pipe sound is certainly different.
Barry,
When you comment on performance would you also comment on "sound is certainly different".
Volume?
Tone?
etc.?
thanks
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on May 16, 2012, 10:45:47 am
Post by: John Haygarth on May 16, 2012, 10:45:47 am
Barry, the 3rd picture shows I think the end pipe going very close to the air intake pipe and I thought maybe you may want to put some sort of heat baffle between them . Just a thought, and welcome to the "Resonator Club". You will like the difference if it is anywhere like our change in power!
John H
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on May 17, 2012, 08:11:15 am
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on May 17, 2012, 08:11:15 am
Here is a picture of my muffler replacement that was done last year. I stayed with 4" pipe and the muffler is an Aeroturbine 4040XL. I used the 2 old rubber mounts from the original muffler that were still in good shape. Fabricated new brackets and bolted them to the frame. As you can see the shiny SS muffler discolors in use. Foretravel chrome exhaust tip is not shown. I have not noticed any improvement in mpg or performance, but hopefully there is some. The idle noise is a little louder, but going down the road I don't hear any difference even with the drivers window open.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on May 17, 2012, 01:54:52 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on May 17, 2012, 01:54:52 pm
Jerry, I am not familiar with that model muffler at all, only know the best results are from a resonator, not from a muffler. A resonator is wide open, as in you can look through it, mufflers tend to have many baffles and are more concerned about noise not performance. I would assume your new muffler would be a better bet than the original, but not for performance.
That is my opinion
Dave M
That is my opinion
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Tim Fiedler on May 17, 2012, 02:10:18 pm
Post by: Tim Fiedler on May 17, 2012, 02:10:18 pm
The aero is basically a straight pipe, had them on my 89 OREG
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: J. D. Stevens on May 17, 2012, 04:01:32 pm
Post by: J. D. Stevens on May 17, 2012, 04:01:32 pm
I did a quick web search. It appears that the Aero Turbine 4040XL is a muffler, rather than resonator. The company also made resonators.
I could not find a company web site. It appears that the company folded, but many devices are still in the supply chain. I did find many advertisements for Aero exhaust products. Some of the advertisements suggest combining an Aero muffler and an Aero resonator.
Your results and mileage may vary. ;)
I could not find a company web site. It appears that the company folded, but many devices are still in the supply chain. I did find many advertisements for Aero exhaust products. Some of the advertisements suggest combining an Aero muffler and an Aero resonator.
Your results and mileage may vary. ;)
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on May 17, 2012, 04:13:19 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on May 17, 2012, 04:13:19 pm
Generally, performance is difficult to determine unless one is very in tune with his machine, if not really in tune with it, a 200 hp increase would go unnoticed in many cases.
Again my opinion from experience
Dave M
Again my opinion from experience
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Bill Willett on May 17, 2012, 08:44:57 pm
Post by: Bill Willett on May 17, 2012, 08:44:57 pm
From what I can find out about Aero, there is a new company Tecexhaust that has taken over from Aero.
Home page (http://www.tecexhaust.com)
Home page (http://www.tecexhaust.com)
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on May 17, 2012, 11:35:43 pm
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on May 17, 2012, 11:35:43 pm
This is what I bought. Aero Turbine Exhaust AT4040XL 4040XL Muffler (http://www.ourdealsrock.net/aeroexhaustat4040xl.aspx#.T7W-2FKFivk) They call it a resonated muffler, whatever that might be. You can look straight through it. There is a doughnut like ring at the front of the inlet with a 3" hole in the middle, so some of the exhaust goes straight through, and some of it passes around the "doughnut" and through louvers in the tube that supports the ring. The tube with the ring and louvers is supported by being welded in place at the outlet end of the muffler. My opinion is that in this installation most of the muffling is done by the turbocharger.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Bill Chaplin on May 18, 2012, 08:57:01 am
Post by: Bill Chaplin on May 18, 2012, 08:57:01 am
Has anyone tryed the resonator route on the 6V92TS's as yet ?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 18, 2012, 01:18:06 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on May 18, 2012, 01:18:06 pm
Grapevine has it that they are really loud. We use the Jake full time around here and don't want trouble. You know what it's like here. I was thinking of a 5" in/out with a 44" length. Stock muffler for big rigs I think.
Dave probably knows better than anyone with his MCI experience. Dave?
Pierce
Dave probably knows better than anyone with his MCI experience. Dave?
Pierce
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Kent Speers on May 19, 2012, 10:14:00 am
Post by: Kent Speers on May 19, 2012, 10:14:00 am
Has anyone tryed the resonator route on the 6V92TS's as yet ?
Bill, my new diesel mechanic in NAC said don't do it with the 6V92. It will run you out of the coach. He claims that he knows this from experience. Keep in mind that our current plumbing is large enough you can walk through it compared to those dinky little stock Cummins exhaust systems.
Just Joking!!!
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Barry & Cindy on May 19, 2012, 05:02:58 pm
Post by: Barry & Cindy on May 19, 2012, 05:02:58 pm
I took your adviced and changed our band clamps to 5" muffler clamps. . .
One photo shows the rear centering adjustment and the other photo shows the muffler clamps holding onto the hangers. Our OEM muffler top framework has been extended rearward so we can have a new attachment point to support the muffler pipe.
I still want to wrap the muffler tail pipe where it is close to our air intake pipe.
One photo shows the rear centering adjustment and the other photo shows the muffler clamps holding onto the hangers. Our OEM muffler top framework has been extended rearward so we can have a new attachment point to support the muffler pipe.
I still want to wrap the muffler tail pipe where it is close to our air intake pipe.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Michelle on June 08, 2012, 05:57:03 pm
Post by: Michelle on June 08, 2012, 05:57:03 pm
Ours is 90% finished with the Aero 5050XL. The new chrome exhaust tip is due in Monday (normally something they stock, but just our luck they were out), so we have a straight 5" pipe as a temporary solution.
Grrrrrrowwwwllllll ;) Nice, throaty sound of power! Steve can tell you how it drove, I can only report on the sound. Sure does seem like a lot more airflow coming out that tailpipe...
Inland Truck in Denton did a great job, but of course we pretty much gave them the parts they needed along with a photo tutorial, both thanks to Barry B's "proof of concept" on an '03.
That part of the engine compartment looks vast and vacant now, and great access to the start batteries.
Michelle
Grrrrrrowwwwllllll ;) Nice, throaty sound of power! Steve can tell you how it drove, I can only report on the sound. Sure does seem like a lot more airflow coming out that tailpipe...
Inland Truck in Denton did a great job, but of course we pretty much gave them the parts they needed along with a photo tutorial, both thanks to Barry B's "proof of concept" on an '03.
That part of the engine compartment looks vast and vacant now, and great access to the start batteries.
Michelle
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: steve on June 08, 2012, 06:47:37 pm
Post by: steve on June 08, 2012, 06:47:37 pm
Here are a few pics of the new install. Thanks again to Barry for doing the leg work on how to get this to fit in an 03 w/tag ^.^d
The parts we used were all Donaldson exhaust parts, we got them all from Filter Products - equipment parts - Donaldson, Baldwin, Des-Case, Wilson, (http://www.filterspro.com/index.cfm) They had the best pricing I could find, plus they worked with the non commercial user :) The site is not much visually, you basically need to know your part numbers and enter them, most things you can just buy one of, some small parts only by the case.
Anyway here is what we used on our coach:
DONALDSON P207365 1 ELBOW 90-5",ALUMINIZED
DONALDSON J190025 1 45 DEG ELBOW
DONALDSON X007785 4 SS SEAL CLAMPS
DONALDSON J000232 2 GUILLOTIN CLMP,DBL SDLE 5"
DONALDSON P224515 1 SS FLEXTUBE FIVE INCH X 15" (cut down as needed to make things fit)
DONALDSON P206526 1 PIPE HANGER
DONALDSON P207283 1 STACK STRGHT 5"X18" ALUM 18" (just for alignment and temp tailpipe)
The most expensive thing was the SS flex @ 40.75 for 15 inches ... this particular flex is a heavier gauge stainless material over standard flex and has a 12 month/120,000 mile warranty (onhighway vehicles only). You could save some money here and get regular SS flex or even non SS flex.
The next most expensive thing was the 5 stainless seal clamps, again you could save some money with non SS or just use Guillotine Clamps (for the non flex joints).
The "resonator" in this case was a Aero Exhaust Resonated Turbine 5050XL Series Performance Muffler. Its 5" in/out, 7.5" overall diameter, 30" long. The tailpipe is currently straight out the back while we wait on the curved tip to arrive, and standing 6 feet behind the coach while its idling the exhaust airflow is quite strong ^.^d Here is the marketing blurb on the aero series
http://youtu.be/iDTTOa77efs (http://youtu.be/iDTTOa77efs)
Certainly the noise level is up somewhat from where it was, but nothing that was offensive, more throaty is the best description and the turbo did spool up faster. Although backing up into storage shed with the straight back exhaust echoing off the corrugated steel wall was noticeable :)
The parts we used were all Donaldson exhaust parts, we got them all from Filter Products - equipment parts - Donaldson, Baldwin, Des-Case, Wilson, (http://www.filterspro.com/index.cfm) They had the best pricing I could find, plus they worked with the non commercial user :) The site is not much visually, you basically need to know your part numbers and enter them, most things you can just buy one of, some small parts only by the case.
Anyway here is what we used on our coach:
DONALDSON P207365 1 ELBOW 90-5",ALUMINIZED
DONALDSON J190025 1 45 DEG ELBOW
DONALDSON X007785 4 SS SEAL CLAMPS
DONALDSON J000232 2 GUILLOTIN CLMP,DBL SDLE 5"
DONALDSON P224515 1 SS FLEXTUBE FIVE INCH X 15" (cut down as needed to make things fit)
DONALDSON P206526 1 PIPE HANGER
DONALDSON P207283 1 STACK STRGHT 5"X18" ALUM 18" (just for alignment and temp tailpipe)
The most expensive thing was the SS flex @ 40.75 for 15 inches ... this particular flex is a heavier gauge stainless material over standard flex and has a 12 month/120,000 mile warranty (onhighway vehicles only). You could save some money here and get regular SS flex or even non SS flex.
The next most expensive thing was the 5 stainless seal clamps, again you could save some money with non SS or just use Guillotine Clamps (for the non flex joints).
The "resonator" in this case was a Aero Exhaust Resonated Turbine 5050XL Series Performance Muffler. Its 5" in/out, 7.5" overall diameter, 30" long. The tailpipe is currently straight out the back while we wait on the curved tip to arrive, and standing 6 feet behind the coach while its idling the exhaust airflow is quite strong ^.^d Here is the marketing blurb on the aero series
http://youtu.be/iDTTOa77efs (http://youtu.be/iDTTOa77efs)
Certainly the noise level is up somewhat from where it was, but nothing that was offensive, more throaty is the best description and the turbo did spool up faster. Although backing up into storage shed with the straight back exhaust echoing off the corrugated steel wall was noticeable :)
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Barry Beam on June 08, 2012, 06:55:37 pm
Post by: Barry Beam on June 08, 2012, 06:55:37 pm
Here are a few pics of the new install. Thanks again to Barry for doing the leg work on how to get this to fit in an 03 w/tag ^.^d
Welcome to the club. Looks great and awfully familiar 8)
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 08, 2012, 07:00:51 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 08, 2012, 07:00:51 pm
Steve, Welcome to the world of less heat, more space and added performance. Am wondering of your thoughts once you get it out of the driveway and onto the open road with your window closed, you will not hear any difference inside the coach, but will smile from the response of the go pedal.
Dave M
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: J. D. Stevens on June 08, 2012, 07:29:21 pm
Post by: J. D. Stevens on June 08, 2012, 07:29:21 pm
Did they pull the body panel or do the "crawl under" dance?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Michelle on June 08, 2012, 07:36:35 pm
Post by: Michelle on June 08, 2012, 07:36:35 pm
Did they pull the body panel or do the "crawl under" dance?
The panel is hinged at the top in an '03 ^.^d
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on June 12, 2012, 12:28:39 am
Post by: John Haygarth on June 12, 2012, 12:28:39 am
Just back from the Cody Wyoming Rally and trip thru Yellowstone. We then drove thru Virginia City and Nevada city (old cowboy towns ) and highly recommend that part too. Nice seeing all at the Northwestern pack and finally meeting Barry and Darlene and Harvey and Audrey Nelson.
Now back to my reason for answering this post. Glad you have made the change and I can attest to the difference it has made to our bus. The extra power and cooler running engine has impressed me no end. Enjoy it as I am sure you WILL feel a difference too.
John H
Now back to my reason for answering this post. Glad you have made the change and I can attest to the difference it has made to our bus. The extra power and cooler running engine has impressed me no end. Enjoy it as I am sure you WILL feel a difference too.
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: philtravel on June 12, 2012, 08:17:04 am
Post by: philtravel on June 12, 2012, 08:17:04 am
I want to replace my muffler with the aero turbine. Does anyone know how the list Steve has posted may relate to what I will need for my 1999 320?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on June 12, 2012, 11:25:05 am
Post by: John Haygarth on June 12, 2012, 11:25:05 am
your set up will most probably be the same as mine but I did not use the Aero, I used a standard 5" resonator. You can see my pictures in this thread a way back around sept (I think)
John H
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 12, 2012, 11:28:38 am
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 12, 2012, 11:28:38 am
If your coach is like Steve's, parts list will be very close, if your mechanically inclined, it will be very easy & simple, it not, find a good shop as it will take some cutting to fit, and some creativity to make a nice installation. You did not list your coach length, it might be the same or real close.
Enjoy
Dave M
Enjoy
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: P. Wyatt Sabourin on June 12, 2012, 05:24:52 pm
Post by: P. Wyatt Sabourin on June 12, 2012, 05:24:52 pm
I replaced the muffler in my 1996 U320 and believe a 1999 U320 is identical, perhaps others on this forum can confirm.
If they are, I can provide an exact list with part numbers.
I used a Magnaflow muffler rather than an Aero 5050XL because I did not want it to be louder.
I also have 5" stainless flex left over which I would sell.
If they are, I can provide an exact list with part numbers.
I used a Magnaflow muffler rather than an Aero 5050XL because I did not want it to be louder.
I also have 5" stainless flex left over which I would sell.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Tom Lang on June 12, 2012, 06:15:19 pm
Post by: Tom Lang on June 12, 2012, 06:15:19 pm
Will this parts list for a U320 also work for my 2003 U295?
5050XL
DONALDSON P207365 1 ELBOW 90-5",ALUMINIZED
DONALDSON J190025 1 45 DEG ELBOW
DONALDSON X007785 5 SS SEAL CLAMPS
DONALDSON J000232 1 GUILLOTIN CLMP,DBL SDLE 5"
DONALDSON P224515 1 SS FLEXTUBE FIVE INCH X 15"
DONALDSON P206526 1 PIPE HANGER
DONALDSON P207283 1 STACK STRGHT 5"X18" ALUM 18"
5050XL
DONALDSON P207365 1 ELBOW 90-5",ALUMINIZED
DONALDSON J190025 1 45 DEG ELBOW
DONALDSON X007785 5 SS SEAL CLAMPS
DONALDSON J000232 1 GUILLOTIN CLMP,DBL SDLE 5"
DONALDSON P224515 1 SS FLEXTUBE FIVE INCH X 15"
DONALDSON P206526 1 PIPE HANGER
DONALDSON P207283 1 STACK STRGHT 5"X18" ALUM 18"
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on June 12, 2012, 06:59:14 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on June 12, 2012, 06:59:14 pm
Tom, my suggestion is to take all the original ex system off and build up what you need by looking at what openings etc you have. I would hate to buy excactly what someone else has only to find they did things a bit different on yours. Are you doing this or are you having a muffler shop do it. I had no trouble here getting all the parts and flex at a local truck repair shop and the one 4-5" coupling I needed I had made at a muffler shop-exacly what I designed_ for $20.
I think you are lucky that your side panel hinges up (Steve's did I believe, where I took all the screws out of mine and took the panel off for ease of access.
John H
I think you are lucky that your side panel hinges up (Steve's did I believe, where I took all the screws out of mine and took the panel off for ease of access.
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Tony Pasquale on June 12, 2012, 08:12:08 pm
Post by: Tony Pasquale on June 12, 2012, 08:12:08 pm
I am another Resonator/Muffler convert having changed over at the end of May!
My first trip with the new setup was to the North Atlantic Rally in Watkins Glen about 600 miles RT and my experience was every bit what I had heard about from everyone here! The throaty sound of the resonator which is heard with the window open actually not loud at all plus sounded great to me, and once the window is closed not much sound if at all.
I definitely felt an increase in power, faster spooling, it held speed up 3% and 4% gradual grades and held speed up 6+% grades better than ever before when towing the Malibu.
As for mileage my last look at the Silverleaf just about 10 miles from home showed 8.3 MPG for entire trip best number I have seen usually more in the 7.7 to 8 MPG range! Will post pictures as soon as taken.
I had mine done locally at McCarthy's Tire, Baltimore for $536 including Tax the muffler AERO5050XL purchased on eBay for $120. The mechanic did not remove the side body panel and the install took approximately 4 Hours. Supplies were flex to connect exhaust from 4" to 5", and a 24" one piece 5" chrome exhaust stack attached to the chrome resonater/muffler which had an angled tip we used as the exhaust exiting the rear. Other supplies used were 1 hanger and 3 clamps. The muffler which was removed weighed about 40 to 50 pounds and had rusted with holes along the seams where the pipe was connected to the muffler. So the change was due regardless.
Tony
My first trip with the new setup was to the North Atlantic Rally in Watkins Glen about 600 miles RT and my experience was every bit what I had heard about from everyone here! The throaty sound of the resonator which is heard with the window open actually not loud at all plus sounded great to me, and once the window is closed not much sound if at all.
I definitely felt an increase in power, faster spooling, it held speed up 3% and 4% gradual grades and held speed up 6+% grades better than ever before when towing the Malibu.
As for mileage my last look at the Silverleaf just about 10 miles from home showed 8.3 MPG for entire trip best number I have seen usually more in the 7.7 to 8 MPG range! Will post pictures as soon as taken.
I had mine done locally at McCarthy's Tire, Baltimore for $536 including Tax the muffler AERO5050XL purchased on eBay for $120. The mechanic did not remove the side body panel and the install took approximately 4 Hours. Supplies were flex to connect exhaust from 4" to 5", and a 24" one piece 5" chrome exhaust stack attached to the chrome resonater/muffler which had an angled tip we used as the exhaust exiting the rear. Other supplies used were 1 hanger and 3 clamps. The muffler which was removed weighed about 40 to 50 pounds and had rusted with holes along the seams where the pipe was connected to the muffler. So the change was due regardless.
Tony
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Michelle on June 12, 2012, 08:44:20 pm
Post by: Michelle on June 12, 2012, 08:44:20 pm
Will this parts list for a U320 also work for my 2003 U295?
Ours was based on Barry's fitment since he has the exact same coach. You'd have to look at the photos of his "tutorial" and see if that looks exactly like your setup.
Exhaust System Replacement - 2003 U320 (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/exhaust_system_replacement-2003_u320.html)
Note that Steve opted for stainless flex (the only one Donaldson would warranty) and stainless clamps which are more expensive. The straight piece was a sacrificial temporary tail pipe and would not have been needed if we knew what tail pipe would work.
Both Steve and I are impressed with the work Brandon at Inland Truck in Denton did. He is also their Allison transmission guy, is very familiar with RVs, and likes working on Foretravels.
Michelle
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Barry & Cindy on June 12, 2012, 09:04:51 pm
Post by: Barry & Cindy on June 12, 2012, 09:04:51 pm
Since 'everyone' was changing their original mufflers, we decided it would be a good upgrade for our coach. While we were in Santa Fe, we had an unexpected opportunity to have a truck mechanic friend who was an expert welder make the muffler change. But we had not purchased the Aero muffler and could not find one in the area, so we decided to use a locally available 'regular' resonator. When I went to the small muffler shop to pick up the resonator, I was very surprised how heavy the resonator was and to see that it was a straight perforated pipe, packed tight all around the center. When I commented how different his resonator was from the Aero we really wanted, the shop owner said he had a new Aero resonator muffler in his back room that he purchased over a year ago. He did not know his cost or what model the Aero was. But it turned out to be AT5050, which is probably the best one for our installation. So that is how we had a chance to compare the Aero to a resonator.
The Aero is unique design, much different from the standard resonator, even though it is called a resonator muffler. It has no packing, is quite light and is completely open. Just inside the inlet connection is an aerodynamic wing shaped concentric ring that directs exhaust around the open center pipe that is connected to the outlet connection. There are cuts on the center pipe that cause the directed exhaust to swirl out. The wing shape causes a slight drop in pressure on the inlet and the swirls help "pull" the exhaust from the turbo. Our Aero AT5050 is all stainless and is not expensive at $110 (Mufflers (http://tecexhaust.com/default/mufflers.html?p=2) ).
We have driven a mountain pass since the change-over and feel that we are running 'easier', maybe with slightly lower temps. Changing our 2002 Jeep Grand tow car that we pulled around the country for 10 years, to a new 2012 Jeep Grand in January added about 1,000 pounds more weight to pull behind us. We felt the extra weight on our motorhome and now that we have the Aero for a month, we feel we are back to where we were with the 2002 Jeep. Sound is a little different, but not very noticeable.
The Aero is unique design, much different from the standard resonator, even though it is called a resonator muffler. It has no packing, is quite light and is completely open. Just inside the inlet connection is an aerodynamic wing shaped concentric ring that directs exhaust around the open center pipe that is connected to the outlet connection. There are cuts on the center pipe that cause the directed exhaust to swirl out. The wing shape causes a slight drop in pressure on the inlet and the swirls help "pull" the exhaust from the turbo. Our Aero AT5050 is all stainless and is not expensive at $110 (Mufflers (http://tecexhaust.com/default/mufflers.html?p=2) ).
We have driven a mountain pass since the change-over and feel that we are running 'easier', maybe with slightly lower temps. Changing our 2002 Jeep Grand tow car that we pulled around the country for 10 years, to a new 2012 Jeep Grand in January added about 1,000 pounds more weight to pull behind us. We felt the extra weight on our motorhome and now that we have the Aero for a month, we feel we are back to where we were with the 2002 Jeep. Sound is a little different, but not very noticeable.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Rick on June 13, 2012, 11:55:04 am
Post by: Rick on June 13, 2012, 11:55:04 am
Hello,
when reinstalling the side panel and the trim strip, what caulking have you used? Are ther any easily removeable caulkings because I will be doing air bag replacement now and it may be another 6 mo. before I get to the muffler replacement and do not want to fight too hard getting the caulking off.
Thanks
when reinstalling the side panel and the trim strip, what caulking have you used? Are ther any easily removeable caulkings because I will be doing air bag replacement now and it may be another 6 mo. before I get to the muffler replacement and do not want to fight too hard getting the caulking off.
Thanks
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on June 13, 2012, 12:07:24 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on June 13, 2012, 12:07:24 pm
If you know for sure you will be taking it off again inside 6 months I would go with a standard acrylic paintable filler just so you can at least seal it up. When you do the final removal I would use a good Polyurethane caulk.
John H
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: wa_desert_rat on June 13, 2012, 12:40:31 pm
Post by: wa_desert_rat on June 13, 2012, 12:40:31 pm
It seems to me that the resonator upgrade would be especially good for the '93 Cummins 5.9 mechanical engine. The 3030XL fits the exiting exhaust system and I wonder if there would be any advantage to moving to a larger exhaust fitting right at the resonator.
Anyone have any thoughts on this? After the solar panel project is completed I'm going to do a resonator, I think.
Craig
Anyone have any thoughts on this? After the solar panel project is completed I'm going to do a resonator, I think.
Craig
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Rick on June 13, 2012, 04:45:38 pm
Post by: Rick on June 13, 2012, 04:45:38 pm
If you know for sure you will be taking it off again inside 6 months I would go with a standard acrylic paintable filler just so you can at least seal it up. When you do the final removal I would use a good Polyurethane caulk.
John H
Thank you for the suggestion.
Rick
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: PatC on June 14, 2012, 12:38:26 am
Post by: PatC on June 14, 2012, 12:38:26 am
I wonder if there would be any advantage to moving to a larger exhaust fitting right at the resonator.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: wa_desert_rat on June 14, 2012, 12:48:47 am
Post by: wa_desert_rat on June 14, 2012, 12:48:47 am
Only if you change out the exhaust to 4" all the way from the turbo to the resonator. And then the bigger AT4040!
Not worth the trouble... we have a PacBrake in the way... I'll just get the 3030xl and work with that. Thanks Pat. :)
Craig
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Barry & Cindy on June 14, 2012, 01:07:46 pm
Post by: Barry & Cindy on June 14, 2012, 01:07:46 pm
Can't hurt to go to the next diameter size and it probably will have a positive effect.
We decided to keep the short turbo pipe in place as it was in good condition and add a size increase transition at the end of the turbo pipe. If your exhaust pipe exits through a fiberglass hole, the hole will have to be increased for the additional inch increase.
Also costs for next size pipe, clamps, muffler are not much higher and there is probably lots of room to handle the increase, so why not do it. At least if you don't feel the handling is not a lot better, you will have known you did the best you could. And never have a doubt that one inch larger would have been better.
By the way, installing the Aero muffler on our coach did not need the removal of fiberglass side panel. There was plenty of room to work and side panel removal would not have made the job easier.
We decided to keep the short turbo pipe in place as it was in good condition and add a size increase transition at the end of the turbo pipe. If your exhaust pipe exits through a fiberglass hole, the hole will have to be increased for the additional inch increase.
Also costs for next size pipe, clamps, muffler are not much higher and there is probably lots of room to handle the increase, so why not do it. At least if you don't feel the handling is not a lot better, you will have known you did the best you could. And never have a doubt that one inch larger would have been better.
By the way, installing the Aero muffler on our coach did not need the removal of fiberglass side panel. There was plenty of room to work and side panel removal would not have made the job easier.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on June 14, 2012, 06:45:43 pm
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on June 14, 2012, 06:45:43 pm
Has anybody tried NOT using a muffler or resonator?
How was the sound altered?
I thought I read that the Turbo was a approved muffling device. Maybe my recall on the subject is incorrect.
With the Small size of these mufflers and resonators I just wondered how much of a effect they even had on the sound level and tone.
How was the sound altered?
I thought I read that the Turbo was a approved muffling device. Maybe my recall on the subject is incorrect.
With the Small size of these mufflers and resonators I just wondered how much of a effect they even had on the sound level and tone.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 14, 2012, 07:26:57 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 14, 2012, 07:26:57 pm
Turbos cut the noise by about 50% but exact number is just a guess. I tried running a couple of 930s without the mufflers but they were way too loud for the street. A turbo diesel motorhome without any muffler would NOT be campground friendly.
Pierce
Pierce
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on June 14, 2012, 07:40:54 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on June 14, 2012, 07:40:54 pm
Barry, the reason for me removing the side panel was so I did not have to lie under the coach and work looking up. It was easy on my back to sit on a small stool and a plus for having it off was I could clean the cooling rad and engine and chassis very easily. Would have been messy lying under. I did it all on my own so with 2 or having a shop do it is a big difference IMHO.
John h
John h
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 14, 2012, 08:14:27 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 14, 2012, 08:14:27 pm
My experience using a 8V-92TA Detroit Diesel in a MCI motor home, with no muffler nor resonator, the turbo-ed engine noise was too harsh, installing the resonator took the harshness out of it, making for an acceptable level of exhaust noise.
Of course noise level/db is an opinion, some will never accept anything that is not stock, so folks have to do what makes them feel good.
For me, I prefer the free'r breathing engine, reduced heat build up and better performance using the resonator.
I also have been told that a muffler is not required on an engine with a turbo.
So again, do what makes you feel warm & fuzzy.
Cheers
Dave M
Of course noise level/db is an opinion, some will never accept anything that is not stock, so folks have to do what makes them feel good.
For me, I prefer the free'r breathing engine, reduced heat build up and better performance using the resonator.
I also have been told that a muffler is not required on an engine with a turbo.
So again, do what makes you feel warm & fuzzy.
Cheers
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: P. Wyatt Sabourin on June 15, 2012, 02:00:40 pm
Post by: P. Wyatt Sabourin on June 15, 2012, 02:00:40 pm
A foretravel U295 owner near my home tried a straight pipe on his 8.3 for a while but found it too noisy, so added an Aero 5050 resonator and is happy with it now. It seems to be louder to my ears than my M11 with a Magnaflow muffler. The Magnaflow has a deeper tone than the OEM, but is not louder to my ears.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Kent Speers on June 15, 2012, 10:11:48 pm
Post by: Kent Speers on June 15, 2012, 10:11:48 pm
John, I agree that for the short term, acrylic caulk is the way to go, urethane for the permanent fix.
As far as changing exhaust for the Cummins 5.9, both Cummins technical and Banks Technical told me that there is no advantage to increasing the exhaust flow since of the 5.9. The muffler used by Foretravel has way more flow that the 5.9 needs. That's what they said.
As far as changing exhaust for the Cummins 5.9, both Cummins technical and Banks Technical told me that there is no advantage to increasing the exhaust flow since of the 5.9. The muffler used by Foretravel has way more flow that the 5.9 needs. That's what they said.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: amos.harrison on June 16, 2012, 06:34:32 pm
Post by: amos.harrison on June 16, 2012, 06:34:32 pm
The exhaust housing driving the turbocharger is the pinch point in the exhaust. There is no benefit to going any larger than its cross sectional area downstream.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: gam on June 16, 2012, 08:20:46 pm
Post by: gam on June 16, 2012, 08:20:46 pm
The more free flowing the exhaust system is the lower the back pressure will be. When back pressure is lessened after the turbo , less positive gas pressure before the turbo is required to spine the compressor blades. In the end to a point larger dia exhaust pipes and more free flowing mufflers reduce back pressure and should result in faster spooling turbochargers which produce broader torque curves and faster throttle response. Gam
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 16, 2012, 08:32:47 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 16, 2012, 08:32:47 pm
gam, Right on, my coach picked up about 50 hp from just the change to the resonator, That is a guess on my part, how much hp increase does it take to be able to feel it ? Where my guess of 50 hp came from, now with that and the change to the ISM500 setup it does feel like 200 hp, (another guess) a big kick in the butt, very noticable in drivers seat, and feels real good. :o ;D
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 16, 2012, 09:29:07 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 16, 2012, 09:29:07 pm
Here is an excerpt and a link to the complete article from an engineer at Garrett Air Research, a big player in the world of turbos:
"Downstream of the turbine (aka the turboback exhaust), you want the least backpressure possible. No ifs, ands, or buts. Stick a Hoover on the tailpipe if you can. The general rule of "larger is better" (to the point of diminishing returns) of turboback exhausts is valid. Here, the idea is to minimize the pressure downstream of the turbine in order to make the most effective use of the pressure that is being generated upstream of the turbine. Remember, a turbine operates via a pressure ratio. For a given turbine inlet pressure, you will get the highest pressure ratio across the turbine when you have the lowest possible discharge pressure. This means the turbine is able to do the most amount of work possible (i.e. drive the compressor and make boost) with the available inlet pressure."
Here is the complete paper: Turbo Exhaust Theory (http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/turbo_exhaust_theory/turbo_exhaust_theory.html)
Pierce
"Downstream of the turbine (aka the turboback exhaust), you want the least backpressure possible. No ifs, ands, or buts. Stick a Hoover on the tailpipe if you can. The general rule of "larger is better" (to the point of diminishing returns) of turboback exhausts is valid. Here, the idea is to minimize the pressure downstream of the turbine in order to make the most effective use of the pressure that is being generated upstream of the turbine. Remember, a turbine operates via a pressure ratio. For a given turbine inlet pressure, you will get the highest pressure ratio across the turbine when you have the lowest possible discharge pressure. This means the turbine is able to do the most amount of work possible (i.e. drive the compressor and make boost) with the available inlet pressure."
Here is the complete paper: Turbo Exhaust Theory (http://www.tercelreference.com/tercel_info/turbo_exhaust_theory/turbo_exhaust_theory.html)
Pierce
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Barry & Cindy on June 16, 2012, 09:53:28 pm
Post by: Barry & Cindy on June 16, 2012, 09:53:28 pm
RE: following Gam's point: free flowing mufflers reduce back pressure and should result in faster spooling turbochargers . . .
Aero claims include, creating a vacuum that cause Aero to be an improvement over no muffler at all:
"The Aero Turbine and Aero TurbineXL mufflers all use a patented Air-foil Technology By diverting slower moving outside air around the faster moving inside air, it creates a vortex that literally pulls the air off the head and out of the exhaust. The Aero turbine also spools up the turbo faster because of the vacuum effect created by the turbine, thereby further increasing the vehicles performance."
Aero claims include, creating a vacuum that cause Aero to be an improvement over no muffler at all:
"The Aero Turbine and Aero TurbineXL mufflers all use a patented Air-foil Technology By diverting slower moving outside air around the faster moving inside air, it creates a vortex that literally pulls the air off the head and out of the exhaust. The Aero turbine also spools up the turbo faster because of the vacuum effect created by the turbine, thereby further increasing the vehicles performance."
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 16, 2012, 10:33:27 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 16, 2012, 10:33:27 pm
The Aero Turbine promises a lot and may work as advertised. On the other hand, the CEO could be Professor Harold Hill, class of '05 or a relative. Must be a non payola lab or major diesel magazine that has done some real world testing. Not a big believer in seat of the pants evaluation. Need a stopwatch to convince me.
Pierce
Pierce
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: PatC on June 16, 2012, 10:45:34 pm
Post by: PatC on June 16, 2012, 10:45:34 pm
Not worth the trouble... we have a PacBrake in the way... I'll just get the 3030xl and work with that. Thanks Pat. :)
Craig
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: PatC on June 16, 2012, 10:57:21 pm
Post by: PatC on June 16, 2012, 10:57:21 pm
The Aero Turbine promises a lot and may work as advertised. On the other hand, the CEO could be Professor Harold Hill, class of '05 or a relative. Must be a non payola lab or major diesel magazine that has done some real world testing. Not a big believer in seat of the pants evaluation. Need a stopwatch to convince me.
Pierce
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 16, 2012, 11:27:41 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 16, 2012, 11:27:41 pm
Pat,
We manufactured a lot of turbo conversions for MBZ diesels and yes, I believe exactly what the engineer at Garrett says in his paper. We installed mufflers and exhaust pipes in as large diameter as possible according to customer's tastes. A straight through glass pack, resonator or any muffler that cuts back pressure to a minimum or off road with a straight pipe is the ticket. I just have trouble with "magic" muffler designs that claim to suck the exhaust out. To me the biggest possible inside diameter, shortest muffler/resonator works best with trade offs dealing with inside and outside noise levels necessary.
Pierce
We manufactured a lot of turbo conversions for MBZ diesels and yes, I believe exactly what the engineer at Garrett says in his paper. We installed mufflers and exhaust pipes in as large diameter as possible according to customer's tastes. A straight through glass pack, resonator or any muffler that cuts back pressure to a minimum or off road with a straight pipe is the ticket. I just have trouble with "magic" muffler designs that claim to suck the exhaust out. To me the biggest possible inside diameter, shortest muffler/resonator works best with trade offs dealing with inside and outside noise levels necessary.
Pierce
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: amos.harrison on June 17, 2012, 06:31:02 am
Post by: amos.harrison on June 17, 2012, 06:31:02 am
Joe Donnelly at the Turbo Diesel Register has done extensive testing of exhaust systems in Dodge pickups. He only saw measurable performance improvement above 3" dia. exhaust systems when engine output was pushed above 600 hp. Switching from muffler to resonator is lowering back pressure. Increasing pipe size likely not so much.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on June 17, 2012, 07:40:30 am
Post by: John S on June 17, 2012, 07:40:30 am
The Aero Turbine promises a lot and may work as advertised. On the other hand, the CEO could be Professor Harold Hill, class of '05 or a relative. Must be a non payola lab or major diesel magazine that has done some real world testing. Not a big believer in seat of the pants evaluation. Need a stopwatch to convince me.
Pierce
No stop watch but my Silverleaf shows the difference. Much faster turbo spool up and I never saw Yellow on the gauge before. I see it now and I know I get two to three more lbs of boost. I also get better mileage. Now is it a vacuum produced, I do not know but it is lighter and more free in it flow than prior and it also sounds a bit better to me.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave Head on June 17, 2012, 09:16:15 am
Post by: Dave Head on June 17, 2012, 09:16:15 am
I've actually bought both the Walker resonator and the Aero 5050XL. I don't necessarily buy the hype of the Aero - but the sizing appears to fit better for my available room and distance from the AC condenser. and fan. Whichever one doesn't get used I will sell.
Any book on turbocharging will tell you that decreasing the back pressure results in quicker spoolup and efficiency.
Any book on turbocharging will tell you that decreasing the back pressure results in quicker spoolup and efficiency.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 17, 2012, 09:22:57 am
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 17, 2012, 09:22:57 am
I usually get a big laugh out of the NEW thinking, mainly rag reports on new miracle things like resonators, with results aimed at Aero sales, now add the vacuum feature, that is a new thought, aimed at sales again, gee if things worked as reported by the rags, we would all have 3000 hp engines getting over 400 mpg. Seems to be a disconnect somewhere between facts and reports.
Anyone remember the magnet on a gasoline fuel line that gave you 15% better mileage?
My big laugh is that my entire life has been from the gear head side, meaning trying different setups, experimenting and learning what works and what does not.
I find Pierce has the clear pix too.
As usual, you have to do what gives you the warm fuzzy ;D If it takes a smaller exhaust pipe and/or a Aero unit, go for it.
Cheers & FWIW
Dave M
Anyone remember the magnet on a gasoline fuel line that gave you 15% better mileage?
My big laugh is that my entire life has been from the gear head side, meaning trying different setups, experimenting and learning what works and what does not.
I find Pierce has the clear pix too.
As usual, you have to do what gives you the warm fuzzy ;D If it takes a smaller exhaust pipe and/or a Aero unit, go for it.
Cheers & FWIW
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 17, 2012, 10:01:23 am
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 17, 2012, 10:01:23 am
If it's creating a vacuum inside a pressurized line it's truly creating something from nothing. Perhaps if it had venturis with outside air makeup it could do it, otherwise vacuum? Nyaah.
Marketing magic.
Marketing magic.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on June 17, 2012, 11:03:21 am
Post by: John Haygarth on June 17, 2012, 11:03:21 am
Now after you have all changed over to a resonator the next thing is to add the Banks Stinger. That does make a big difference on power. It was on the coach when I bought it but was obviously not working up to potential due to that leak (holes) in the CAC I found then fixed. I have up to 34lbs of boost pressure, and THAT gives a lot of kick when needed. I remember last year heading south and all of a sudden I thought half the engine had fallen off. Turns out the power to Banks had gone as there was a break in the 12v wire for module. Once repaired all was well again. I had not driven this coach without it running so did not know what it was like without.
John H
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: GMC_jon on June 17, 2012, 11:06:00 am
Post by: GMC_jon on June 17, 2012, 11:06:00 am
Chuck,
Right on w/ the venturi. Only reasonable way to produce a lower pressure (vacuum) w/o consuming more energy than produced.
FWIW
John
Right on w/ the venturi. Only reasonable way to produce a lower pressure (vacuum) w/o consuming more energy than produced.
FWIW
John
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Barry & Cindy on June 17, 2012, 11:30:08 am
Post by: Barry & Cindy on June 17, 2012, 11:30:08 am
RE: Dave's Anyone remember the magnet on a gasoline fuel line that gave you 15% better mileage?
Dave, you mean the magnet does not work? Doesn't it also increase mileage by magnet attraction to the vehicle in front?
Dave, you mean the magnet does not work? Doesn't it also increase mileage by magnet attraction to the vehicle in front?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 17, 2012, 12:11:52 pm
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 17, 2012, 12:11:52 pm
Now after you have all changed over to a resonator the next thing is to add the Banks Stinger. That does make a big difference on power. It was on the coach when I bought it but was obviously not working up to potential due to that leak (holes) in the CAC I found then fixed. I have up to 34lbs of boost pressure, and THAT gives a lot of kick when needed.
John H
I've thought about the stinger kit on my 300 Cummins and have a general question about it. Exactly what is it? Does it include a larger turbo or wastegate? I understand the pyro and boost gauge. Ol' Cheap Chuck thinking about a diy stinger kit....
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 17, 2012, 01:17:46 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 17, 2012, 01:17:46 pm
Hi Barry, Yup, loved the magnet idea, as far as I know it kept the compus pointing the way somewhere.
One point I need to correct in my comment about the feeling like 200 hp with the ISM500 upgrade, actually it is only 50 hp increase, but the 100 ft lb torque is what you really feel, that does feel like a bunch of kick in the butt effect.
Cheers
Dave M
One point I need to correct in my comment about the feeling like 200 hp with the ISM500 upgrade, actually it is only 50 hp increase, but the 100 ft lb torque is what you really feel, that does feel like a bunch of kick in the butt effect.
Cheers
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: gam on June 17, 2012, 02:16:30 pm
Post by: gam on June 17, 2012, 02:16:30 pm
It is possible to create a lower pressure area within the flow inside a pipe. Slower moving gasses or liquid clings to the inside diameter of the pipe and in effect lessens the working diameter of that pipe. With the use of an expansion chamber and nozzles like the inside of an aero resonator the high velocity and low velocity gases can be brought together and the flow restrictions within the pipe can be lessend. With a 350 h.p. diesel it seams to me that the aero design would work best on a smaller diameter 4" system with not as much gain on a 5". Also I think the aero should be installed after any bends in the system with only straight pipe after it. In flow restriction Each 90 bend in a 5" system is equal to about 100" of straight pipe. Gam
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 17, 2012, 07:34:27 pm
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 17, 2012, 07:34:27 pm
It is possible to create a lower pressure area within the flow inside a pipe. Slower moving gasses or liquid clings to the inside diameter of the pipe and in effect lessens the working diameter of that pipe
Sure, you can have high and low pressure areas inside concentric pipes but these differentials are relative to each other and cancel out upon convergence. It's a long shot to call this a vacuum.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: gam on June 17, 2012, 07:45:07 pm
Post by: gam on June 17, 2012, 07:45:07 pm
Is it then just a pressure differential? Gam
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 17, 2012, 11:21:48 pm
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 17, 2012, 11:21:48 pm
Ok, here's how I see it. The only way of making a scavenging effect that actually helps pull exhaust from the engine is to have a tuned exhaust of exact length and volume, the calculation of which is far beyond me. What we're trying to accomplish here, though, is to provide the maximum pressure drop across the air pump-turbo. This calls for minimal restriction which is achieved, as you noted, by minimal bends and maximum pipe size with no choke points. The resonator efficiency may well be enhanced by being dual chambered but it does not create vacuum and at best is reducing friction for a couple feet of pipe, a miniscule advangage.
I haven't done the resonator thing yet, I want to hear one first. If I do it, will attempt to use the largest pipe feasible and one long sweeping bend, possibly flex from turbo to resonator. I've been told the rough surface of the flex will cancel out any advantage of eliminating the short radius bends but this stuff can be counter-intuitive...like vortex generators on aircraft wings and dimples on golf balls.
Sorry to sidetrack the discussion. I love this stuff.
I haven't done the resonator thing yet, I want to hear one first. If I do it, will attempt to use the largest pipe feasible and one long sweeping bend, possibly flex from turbo to resonator. I've been told the rough surface of the flex will cancel out any advantage of eliminating the short radius bends but this stuff can be counter-intuitive...like vortex generators on aircraft wings and dimples on golf balls.
Sorry to sidetrack the discussion. I love this stuff.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 17, 2012, 11:34:58 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 17, 2012, 11:34:58 pm
Chuck,
The scavenging effect only works on non-turbo engines. All the calculations go out the window once you put a turbo on, just have the maximum pressure drop possible on the discharge side with no formulas, tuning necessary.
Pierce
The scavenging effect only works on non-turbo engines. All the calculations go out the window once you put a turbo on, just have the maximum pressure drop possible on the discharge side with no formulas, tuning necessary.
Pierce
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 17, 2012, 11:59:01 pm
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 17, 2012, 11:59:01 pm
Chuck,
The scavenging effect only works on non-turbo engines.
Pierce
Of course don't know what l was thinking there.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 18, 2012, 12:33:39 am
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 18, 2012, 12:33:39 am
So what you need to do is change the turbo to a model that gets more boost (pressure) at say, 1200 rpm instead of 1400 rpm. Since it spins up sooner, it will build too much pressure and destroy the engine so you install a waste gate, another word for a relief valve. As the pressure builds to a harmful level, the waste gate opens and diverts the excess overboard. So, now it pulls like a mule a couple of hundred rpm lower and you select how much boost your engine will stand when you buy the waste gate. If you don't drive too many miles per year, why not replace the single turbo with a pair plus intercoolers like boats do? You now have a whole team of mules off the line and can't keep tread on the rear tires. The term "hill" or "grade" no longer have any meaning. Naturally, the TBO is a lot shorter.
Pierce
Pierce
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: gam on June 18, 2012, 01:03:12 am
Post by: gam on June 18, 2012, 01:03:12 am
chuck Great responce. I haven't done the resonator thing yet eathor. When I do it will be 5" ,so I may not use the aero. But then again the aero is straght through ,with no packing inside, and it's all SS , and it will look good under there, so maybe. Years ago when I was into drag raceing, we fabricated our collectors long and took a hacksaw to the strip to adj them.But that was on a 392 with 6 stromberg 97s. A try as you go thing. Gam
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on June 18, 2012, 02:41:49 am
Post by: Lon and Cheryl on June 18, 2012, 02:41:49 am
PLEASE don't tell me that Mickey Thompson lied when I bought his Super Scavenger headers and put them on my 66 Shelby GT350 way back when!
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 18, 2012, 06:44:04 am
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 18, 2012, 06:44:04 am
Pierce,
When I installed the new bypass turbo, at idle the discharge is like a leaf blower vs the normal stock turbo which has a very reduced air flow at idle,
WAS not aware of it until the guys at Xtreme commented on it while the coach was driven into the shop, blew all the dust away from that corner. :o
Dave M
When I installed the new bypass turbo, at idle the discharge is like a leaf blower vs the normal stock turbo which has a very reduced air flow at idle,
WAS not aware of it until the guys at Xtreme commented on it while the coach was driven into the shop, blew all the dust away from that corner. :o
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 18, 2012, 10:47:48 am
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 18, 2012, 10:47:48 am
Lon,
Mickey Thompson headers work super on your normally aspirated (non-turbo) Mustang. Adding a turbo changes almost all the rules especially in a spark ignition (gasoline) engine. The Corvair almost, well fairly close, got it right. The aluminum Olds with turbo in 1962 ran into a lot of problems with high under the hood temps that caused the gasoline to boil and vapor lock when you turned them off. Hard to start after that.
Dave,
Would have liked to see it blow the dust. Bet it really added a lot of mules to the low end!
My 930 has a long turbo lag. VW bugs are as fast across intersections. If you never kept your foot to the floor, you would never dream about the split personality. After it gathers about 2500 rpm, the boost gauge moves from zero to one atmosphere in about a second and Clark Kent pulls his shirt off. Racing against Mustangs, Corvettes, I liked to do a 35 mph rolling start in second gear with my left foot on the brake and right foot well down on the gas. Would build boost and then off the brake and petal to the metal to 94 mph in second gear. (Is a four speed.)
Years ago, I made the mistake of choosing off a superbike. Gone like a squeezed watermelon seed. I even had one beat me with a passenger on board. Guess it's the old power to weight ratio.
Pierce
Mickey Thompson headers work super on your normally aspirated (non-turbo) Mustang. Adding a turbo changes almost all the rules especially in a spark ignition (gasoline) engine. The Corvair almost, well fairly close, got it right. The aluminum Olds with turbo in 1962 ran into a lot of problems with high under the hood temps that caused the gasoline to boil and vapor lock when you turned them off. Hard to start after that.
Dave,
Would have liked to see it blow the dust. Bet it really added a lot of mules to the low end!
My 930 has a long turbo lag. VW bugs are as fast across intersections. If you never kept your foot to the floor, you would never dream about the split personality. After it gathers about 2500 rpm, the boost gauge moves from zero to one atmosphere in about a second and Clark Kent pulls his shirt off. Racing against Mustangs, Corvettes, I liked to do a 35 mph rolling start in second gear with my left foot on the brake and right foot well down on the gas. Would build boost and then off the brake and petal to the metal to 94 mph in second gear. (Is a four speed.)
Years ago, I made the mistake of choosing off a superbike. Gone like a squeezed watermelon seed. I even had one beat me with a passenger on board. Guess it's the old power to weight ratio.
Pierce
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: oldmattb on June 18, 2012, 11:51:58 am
Post by: oldmattb on June 18, 2012, 11:51:58 am
A friend just bought a 1994 non-FT coach for resale. It had, I think a Cummins 8.3. The previous owner paid big bux to have the old, rusted-out muffler with what appeared to be a regular automotive muffler. Friend would press the accelerator and the boost gauge would peg, and it died in traffic a couple of times. Removed the muffler and it seems fine.
It had 3-inch inlet and outlet and looked like this. I don't know a lot about diesel exhaust systems, but I know it looked real wrong.
Matt B
It had 3-inch inlet and outlet and looked like this. I don't know a lot about diesel exhaust systems, but I know it looked real wrong.
Matt B
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 18, 2012, 01:25:06 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 18, 2012, 01:25:06 pm
A friend just bought a 1994 non-FT coach for resale. It had, I think a Cummins 8.3. The previous owner paid big bux to have the old, rusted-out muffler with what appeared to be a regular automotive muffler. Friend would press the accelerator and the boost gauge would peg, and it died in traffic a couple of times. Removed the muffler and it seems fine.
It had 3-inch inlet and outlet and looked like this. I don't know a lot about diesel exhaust systems, but I know it looked real wrong.
Matt B
Should have an inlet and outlet of either 4 or 5 inches and look something like this: New 4" Inch Center In / Center Out High Flow Stainless Steel HD Diesel Muffler | (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-4-Inch-Center-In-Center-Out-High-Flow-Stainless-Steel-HD-Diesel-Muffler-/261040493840?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cc739d510&vxp=mtr)
Not going to break the bank at $74.99 delivered.
If 5", just do another search. Should be pretty easy to match up size with the big exhaust pipe out of the turbo. Outlet pipe should be same diameter and route out the back like OEM did.
Pierce
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: wa_desert_rat on June 18, 2012, 05:16:11 pm
Post by: wa_desert_rat on June 18, 2012, 05:16:11 pm
Now after you have all changed over to a resonator the next thing is to add the Banks Stinger. That does make a big difference on power.
Just back from 700 miles round trip (over to the DW's parents' house in Long Beach, WA on Thursday and home on Sunday) and I am convinced that the Banks Stinger installation on our little 230hp 5.9 Cummins makes the difference between an enjoyable trip and a frustrating one.
Holding 60-61 mph (2150rpm) we got 11.2mpg (no toad) on cruise-control and seldom slowed down on the freeway grades along the Columbia River Gorge east of Portland, OR. and pulled the grade leading north from Hermiston, OR on I-82 at 60mph with no issues. This was loaded with the kids and their baby and all the paraphernalia that includes.
But when the traffic got thicker and it became more dangerous to hold 60mph than keep up with the trucks I could easily move along at 65 to 70. I picked one flatbed on I-5 that seemed to be pretty smart and just tailed him 100 yards behind. The high driver position of the U225 made that easy. I could move into a faster lane and accelerate fast enough to not cause anyone any issues, get past the slower traffic, and move back to the right. No stress. Actually fun!
Although the Stinger package came with the coach, I'm convinced that it's worth the money (at least on *that* engine) but I'm not sure that the "Power Pack" would make much of a difference.
The resonator is on my list as soon as I'm done with the 600-watts of solar, the inverter, and the changes to the wiring.
I think that with the Banks package you can either use all the available power to go faster and get the same fuel economy or back off and get more miles-per-gallon. Seems like a lot of folks go for the power.
Craig
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 18, 2012, 05:42:05 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 18, 2012, 05:42:05 pm
Craig,
It is nice to be able to run the way we are comfy as to speed and ability to keep up or pass at will that only comes with enough power to get it done, For me, the resonator was the first step (a wake up to the new found power). For those who feel the resonator does not work due to many dreamed up issues, I wish them warm smoke blown up their dress.
The second step was the change from the 450HP @ 1450 Torque to the new 500HP @ 1550 Torque. That is when the big wake up came into play, with the added 100 ft lb torque, that feels like a lot of HP kick in the butt, pull out and pass cars & trucks on big hills while towing the Ford P/U. I know it is capable of better mpg, but fuel is the cheapest part of a coach, so I enjoy the getter up and get it done, sure beats the slow lane and being trapped.
Enjoy
Dave M
It is nice to be able to run the way we are comfy as to speed and ability to keep up or pass at will that only comes with enough power to get it done, For me, the resonator was the first step (a wake up to the new found power). For those who feel the resonator does not work due to many dreamed up issues, I wish them warm smoke blown up their dress.
The second step was the change from the 450HP @ 1450 Torque to the new 500HP @ 1550 Torque. That is when the big wake up came into play, with the added 100 ft lb torque, that feels like a lot of HP kick in the butt, pull out and pass cars & trucks on big hills while towing the Ford P/U. I know it is capable of better mpg, but fuel is the cheapest part of a coach, so I enjoy the getter up and get it done, sure beats the slow lane and being trapped.
Enjoy
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 18, 2012, 08:02:43 pm
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 18, 2012, 08:02:43 pm
So what you need to do is change the turbo to a model that gets more boost (pressure) at say, 1200 rpm instead of 1400 rpm. Since it spins up sooner, it will build too much pressure and destroy the engine so you install a waste gate, another word for a relief valve. As the pressure builds to a harmful level, the waste gate opens and diverts the excess overboard. So, now it pulls like a mule a couple of hundred rpm lower and you select how much boost your engine will stand when you buy the waste gate. If you don't drive too many miles per year, why not replace the single turbo with a pair plus intercoolers like boats do? You now have a whole team of mules off the line and can't keep tread on the rear tires. The term "hill" or "grade" no longer have any meaning. Naturally, the TBO is a lot shorter.
Pierce
Not understanding here. Are you saying this is the effect of the banks stinger kit? Having been the proud owner of a Johnson and Towers DD671TIA cranking out 480 HP with a lifespan seemingly measured in tens of hours, I have no desire to relive the experience of that box a rocks. It had every trick in the book from water cooled heat exchanger for the fuel on.
Chuck
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 18, 2012, 09:27:22 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on June 18, 2012, 09:27:22 pm
Chuck,
No, was just having some fun! :D Actually, the 6V-92TAs are used in boats with 525 to 550 hp with as much as 614 hp using a couple of turbos. The TBO (time between overhaul) is usually at least a couple of thousand hours with turbo failure more likely than engine failure. Here is a quote from a 6V-92TA boat forum owner with a couple of 550 hp 6V-92TAs:
"I had the 550hp versions in a 92'45' vilking convertable.Despite some of the negatives said at times about these older Detriots' mine were flawless-never had a single problem.If I remember right I cruised at 24-25knts burning roughly 40-45 gal an hour.Cruised the boat from the mid-atlantic to Stuart fl twice and put significant hrs on the motors. When I sold it I had close to two thousand hrs-good compression and very little smoke-only on a cold start and getting on plane.Get a survey and adjust offers based on findings-good luck."
This is only one of a lot of great reviews for this engine that I have come across. I have absolutely tortured Detroit 2 cycles since 1967 without a complaint. Almost half of our responses were with dead cold engines (no block heater) to full throttle and out to 2400 rpm within several seconds of startup. Made me a real believer.
They were the engines of choice in sport fishermen for a lot of years. Most of the reviews have been really positive with some posts pointing out issues that our members using the same engines may want to consider. Sort of accelerated wear testing with this much horsepower.
Other marine engine forums are also out there featuring CATs and Cummins. Interested members may just search with Google using keywords like CAT, forum, marine, boat, etc. Here is the forum I lifted the quote from: 6V92 Detroit Diesel? - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum (http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/324682-6v92-detroit-diesel.html)
Can't imagine your Banks Stinger kit having any effect on engine life.
Pierce
No, was just having some fun! :D Actually, the 6V-92TAs are used in boats with 525 to 550 hp with as much as 614 hp using a couple of turbos. The TBO (time between overhaul) is usually at least a couple of thousand hours with turbo failure more likely than engine failure. Here is a quote from a 6V-92TA boat forum owner with a couple of 550 hp 6V-92TAs:
"I had the 550hp versions in a 92'45' vilking convertable.Despite some of the negatives said at times about these older Detriots' mine were flawless-never had a single problem.If I remember right I cruised at 24-25knts burning roughly 40-45 gal an hour.Cruised the boat from the mid-atlantic to Stuart fl twice and put significant hrs on the motors. When I sold it I had close to two thousand hrs-good compression and very little smoke-only on a cold start and getting on plane.Get a survey and adjust offers based on findings-good luck."
This is only one of a lot of great reviews for this engine that I have come across. I have absolutely tortured Detroit 2 cycles since 1967 without a complaint. Almost half of our responses were with dead cold engines (no block heater) to full throttle and out to 2400 rpm within several seconds of startup. Made me a real believer.
They were the engines of choice in sport fishermen for a lot of years. Most of the reviews have been really positive with some posts pointing out issues that our members using the same engines may want to consider. Sort of accelerated wear testing with this much horsepower.
Other marine engine forums are also out there featuring CATs and Cummins. Interested members may just search with Google using keywords like CAT, forum, marine, boat, etc. Here is the forum I lifted the quote from: 6V92 Detroit Diesel? - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum (http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/324682-6v92-detroit-diesel.html)
Can't imagine your Banks Stinger kit having any effect on engine life.
Pierce
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: wa_desert_rat on June 18, 2012, 10:09:38 pm
Post by: wa_desert_rat on June 18, 2012, 10:09:38 pm
Craig,
It is nice to be able to run the way we are comfy as to speed and ability to keep up or pass at will that only comes with enough power to get it done, For me, the resonator was the first step (a wake up to the new found power). For those who feel the resonator does not work due to many dreamed up issues, I wish them warm smoke blown up their dress. The second step
Dave... I'm not trying to judge here... but from the remarks made on rv.net by people with Banks kits installed where they say they get more power but no better fuel efficiency I just got the impression that they were enjoying the power.
Even though I don't mind doing 60 that doesn't mean I like to crawl up hills. Having the Banks gives me cheaper RV use (and I'm on Social Security so pennies count) along with enough power to stay at a nice cruising speed.
I expect the resonator to give me even more improvement; not to mention lower the weight of the rig (that muffler is gigantic!!!).
Craig
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Tom Lang on June 18, 2012, 10:51:41 pm
Post by: Tom Lang on June 18, 2012, 10:51:41 pm
A question: How do you increase the HP on an ISM from 450 to 500? Can a similar increase be done for my ISL (400HP)?
Craig,
It is nice to be able to run the way we are comfy as to speed and ability to keep up or pass at will that only comes with enough power to get it done, For me, the resonator was the first step (a wake up to the new found power). For those who feel the resonator does not work due to many dreamed up issues, I wish them warm smoke blown up their dress.
The second step was the change from the 450HP @ 1450 Torque to the new 500HP @ 1550 Torque. That is when the big wake up came into play, with the added 100 ft lb torque, that feels like a lot of HP kick in the butt, pull out and pass cars & trucks on big hills while towing the Ford P/U. I know it is capable of better mpg, but fuel is the cheapest part of a coach, so I enjoy the getter up and get it done, sure beats the slow lane and being trapped.
Enjoy
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 18, 2012, 11:20:48 pm
Post by: Chuck Pearson on June 18, 2012, 11:20:48 pm
Chuck,
No, was just having some fun! :D Actually, the 6V-92TAs are used in boats with 525 to 550 hp with as much as 614 hp using a couple of turbos. The TBO (time between overhaul) is usually at least a couple of thousand hours with turbo failure more likely than engine failure. Here is a quote from a 6V-92TA boat forum owner with a couple of 550 hp 6V-92TAs:
"I had the 550hp versions in a 92'45' vilking convertable.Despite some of the negatives said at times about these older Detriots' mine were flawless-never had a single problem.If I remember right I cruised at 24-25knts burning roughly 40-45 gal an hour.Cruised the boat from the mid-atlantic to Stuart fl twice and put significant hrs on the motors. When I sold it I had close to two thousand hrs-good compression and very little smoke-only on a cold start and getting on plane.Get a survey and adjust offers based on findings-good luck."
This is only one of a lot of great reviews for this engine that I have come across. I have absolutely tortured Detroit 2 cycles since 1967 without a complaint. Almost half of our responses were with dead cold engines (no block heater) to full throttle and out to 2400 rpm within several seconds of startup. Made me a real believer.
They were the engines of choice in sport fishermen for a lot of years. Most of the reviews have been really positive with some posts pointing out issues that our members using the same engines may want to consider. Sort of accelerated wear testing with this much horsepower.
Other marine engine forums are also out there featuring CATs and Cummins. Interested members may just search with Google using keywords like CAT, forum, marine, boat, etc. Here is the forum I lifted the quote from: 6V92 Detroit Diesel? - The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum (http://www.thehulltruth.com/boating-forum/324682-6v92-detroit-diesel.html)
Can't imagine your Banks Stinger kit having any effect on engine life.
Pierce
I'm real familiar with The Hull Truth, documented the self build of my aluminum pilothouse offshore cat on there, as a matter of fact. I've found 2 stroke DD engines to be great for stationary power, less so for mobile. Never seen one that didn't puke oil due to pressurized crankcase and never seen a hopped up one last. On the other hand the naturally aspirated 671 will run forever at 160 hp which is what it was designed for. It will also documented as continuing to run with .50 cal projectiles through a couple of cylinders. As far as the guy with the 6v92's @ 550 hp with 2K hours TBO, I suspect he had a boat for sale, or, possibly, he had the rarest of setups. Perfectly tuned engines, immaculate heat exchangers and pumps, proper gearing, perfect pitch on props and a light hand on the throttles. Like a lot of other guys I've been around boats a lot, my experience is more with offshore charter/headboats as an owner. For durability, Deere, Cummins, Cat. For heartaches Mann. For short term H.O. DD. My experience. Others may well differ.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Caflashbob on June 19, 2012, 01:53:27 am
Post by: Caflashbob on June 19, 2012, 01:53:27 am
A question: How do you increase the HP on an ISM from 450 to 500? Can a similar increase be done for my ISL (400HP)?
You have a physically smaller engine. Maybe call gale banks?
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 19, 2012, 06:43:33 am
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 19, 2012, 06:43:33 am
As for the ISL, I have zero experience with it, and the Banks might be a good bang for the buck, again unknown to me.
As for the ISM 450 to ISM500, it only cost $3,400.00 at Cummins shop for parts, ECM program and labor.
There are still no free lunch's, why I only had it setup to the standard ISM500 setting, and with Cummins blessing.
Taking the engine up beyond Cummins settings, I call hot rodding,so enjoy.
Still the cheapest part of a coach is the fuel.
Dave M
As for the ISM 450 to ISM500, it only cost $3,400.00 at Cummins shop for parts, ECM program and labor.
There are still no free lunch's, why I only had it setup to the standard ISM500 setting, and with Cummins blessing.
Taking the engine up beyond Cummins settings, I call hot rodding,so enjoy.
Still the cheapest part of a coach is the fuel.
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: philtravel on June 29, 2012, 07:49:31 am
Post by: philtravel on June 29, 2012, 07:49:31 am
Well I took the plunge and had the muffler removed and resonator installed. I could not tell the difference on my 5 mile drive home in traffic but we are going on a 2000 mile trip soon. I will report back with fuel economy.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 29, 2012, 12:50:01 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on June 29, 2012, 12:50:01 pm
driving 5 miles or so on local roads, not the high speed roads in the country and maybe no grades or mtns to corss, it would be little difficult to see a big difference. However if you are in tune with your coach and get it on the big road, I would guess you will see a difference. It is not additional 100 hp, more like 30-40 is my guess, harde to detect if you are not aware of its performance. Seems others clearly see the difference, so I would not panic just yet, give it a little time and on some grades, you might find it a little more joyful like others have.
For me It was very clear first time out with the toad and not until I hit a big hill, then it was clear, it works much better.
As for the fuel saving, that is a very evassive issue, when you run faster up hills fuel goes with it, as the old saying no free lunch, even with fuel when you drive quicker.
Enjoy
Dave M
For me It was very clear first time out with the toad and not until I hit a big hill, then it was clear, it works much better.
As for the fuel saving, that is a very evassive issue, when you run faster up hills fuel goes with it, as the old saying no free lunch, even with fuel when you drive quicker.
Enjoy
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Michael Riensche on September 10, 2012, 03:35:48 pm
Post by: Michael Riensche on September 10, 2012, 03:35:48 pm
Hi Steve. Have you noticed any performance improvements from this replacement? What encouraged you to make the change? Sorry for the geeky questions, im just a bit of a motorhead. It sure looks like a better install. If you ever take a video of your coach running i would love to see it. Michael Riensche
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 10, 2012, 05:24:23 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 10, 2012, 05:24:23 pm
Rereading some of the responses gives me a chuckle, the fact still remains, if after you change to the resonator with added power, IF your drive it the same speed as you did prior to the change, your mileage will improve, the problem with that is EVERYONE keeps the foot on the floor, going little faster and burning more fuel, so they do not think it does any better.
Could give you a prime example of a MD Doc with a 4104 GM with a 6-71, that had no power due to valve clearance way off and injectors not opening to full fuel position, after I tuned it correctly, he now can pass trucks etc, but says the fuel mileage went down, Dah !! :o Correct, it now had full power.
Some days are more comical and you just laugh out loud.
Dave M
Could give you a prime example of a MD Doc with a 4104 GM with a 6-71, that had no power due to valve clearance way off and injectors not opening to full fuel position, after I tuned it correctly, he now can pass trucks etc, but says the fuel mileage went down, Dah !! :o Correct, it now had full power.
Some days are more comical and you just laugh out loud.
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on September 10, 2012, 06:14:12 pm
Post by: John S on September 10, 2012, 06:14:12 pm
I love the sound of the coach now especially when I pass a convertible and have some throttle left....
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 10, 2012, 06:21:37 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 10, 2012, 06:21:37 pm
The point I forgot to make is the fact that you can't have it both ways, more power and less fuel consuption.
I am happy with the better power and the ability to back off and burn less fuel, you just can not get both at the same time :o
Dave M
I am happy with the better power and the ability to back off and burn less fuel, you just can not get both at the same time :o
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: wa_desert_rat on September 10, 2012, 07:06:43 pm
Post by: wa_desert_rat on September 10, 2012, 07:06:43 pm
The point I forgot to make is the fact that you can't have it both ways, more power and less fuel consuption.
I am happy with the better power and the ability to back off and burn less fuel, you just can not get both at the same time :o
Yup.
I suspect that lots of people who move to Banks and report no change in fuel economy are using the power side more than they think.
Craig
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 10, 2012, 08:49:42 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 10, 2012, 08:49:42 pm
Craig,
You bet, I love to put the peddle to it and zooom up em hills, heck with fuel mileage, on my last venture to the Black Hills, SD and back, about 3,800 miles round trip, that is towing the F150 with the Can AM 800 two seat ATV, my VMSpc claims I got 8.2 going out via the no mountains route, however returning I came back thru WV and the mountains, very pleased with the power on the mountains, but the VMSpc showed the error in my ways. By the time I got home it was showing 7.9 mpg, that means I enjoyed the charging up the mountains a little too much. ;D
Dave M
You bet, I love to put the peddle to it and zooom up em hills, heck with fuel mileage, on my last venture to the Black Hills, SD and back, about 3,800 miles round trip, that is towing the F150 with the Can AM 800 two seat ATV, my VMSpc claims I got 8.2 going out via the no mountains route, however returning I came back thru WV and the mountains, very pleased with the power on the mountains, but the VMSpc showed the error in my ways. By the time I got home it was showing 7.9 mpg, that means I enjoyed the charging up the mountains a little too much. ;D
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dean & Dee on September 10, 2012, 09:13:04 pm
Post by: Dean & Dee on September 10, 2012, 09:13:04 pm
towing the F150 with the Can AM 800 two seat ATV, my VMSpc claims I got 8.2 going out via the no mountains route By the time I got home it was showing 7.9 mpg,
Dave M
Man, towing a 3800 lb Honda crv and empty tanks I can't seem to break 7.1 mpg average. VMSpc shows 6.1 lifetime average. Maybe the ISM is better on fuel than the ISL?
Dean
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 10, 2012, 09:51:21 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 10, 2012, 09:51:21 pm
Dean,
My guess would be that you are doing alot of mountain driving, also I have zero experience with the ISL Highway engine, but at a QSL industrial, it does real fine.
I know from experience that you burn alot more fuel climging a mtn than saving going down. Like my last venture, I avoided WV west bound due to the mtns. I went north to the Pa Turnpike, west to I-70, Columbus, Indy, then NW thru Peoria to I-80 etc, no mountains that way.
Point is, If you ever headed south on I-95 to Fl, you would be amazed at the good mileage, assuming you ran 65-70 mph. ;D
Dave M
My guess would be that you are doing alot of mountain driving, also I have zero experience with the ISL Highway engine, but at a QSL industrial, it does real fine.
I know from experience that you burn alot more fuel climging a mtn than saving going down. Like my last venture, I avoided WV west bound due to the mtns. I went north to the Pa Turnpike, west to I-70, Columbus, Indy, then NW thru Peoria to I-80 etc, no mountains that way.
Point is, If you ever headed south on I-95 to Fl, you would be amazed at the good mileage, assuming you ran 65-70 mph. ;D
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dean & Dee on September 10, 2012, 10:03:04 pm
Post by: Dean & Dee on September 10, 2012, 10:03:04 pm
Dean,
If you ever headed south on I-95 to Fl, you would be amazed at the good mileage, assuming you ran 65-70 mph. ;D
Dave M
Dean
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: J. D. Stevens on September 10, 2012, 10:13:08 pm
Post by: J. D. Stevens on September 10, 2012, 10:13:08 pm
We get about 6.9-7.4 mpg with 36' U295 towing a 4080# Jeep. We start travel with full fuel, fresh water, and propane tanks. We generally drive 65 mph with cruise control and don't encounter mountains on most trips. The big factor that affects our fuel mileage is the wind. Our engine is mechanical, so we don't have VmsPC or other fancy readouts. Engine is C8.3-325 with Banks Stinger.
I make no corrections for fuel consumed by the generator. We have had a couple of tanks calculate to 5.x mpg because we ran the generator a lot while parked in very hot weather.
We have not replaced the muffler with a resonator (yet). I expect such a change would improve performance and heat management a bit. I would expect a marginal improvement in fuel mileage. If I want to save on fuel, I stay home. ;)
I make no corrections for fuel consumed by the generator. We have had a couple of tanks calculate to 5.x mpg because we ran the generator a lot while parked in very hot weather.
We have not replaced the muffler with a resonator (yet). I expect such a change would improve performance and heat management a bit. I would expect a marginal improvement in fuel mileage. If I want to save on fuel, I stay home. ;)
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on September 10, 2012, 10:56:45 pm
Post by: John S on September 10, 2012, 10:56:45 pm
It is not only the fuel milage gain but the way it handles heat rejection. The engine runs cooler up the big hills. I get about .8 mpg better on average not really changing my driving style. If I work it and drive the flat lands a bit more it is 1 mpg better. I was getting about 6.8 and now I am 7.6 to 7.8 on the same trips. It does make a difference over a long trip though. I just finished a 7K mile trip so that plus the last trip I took of the same length paid for the entire upgrade.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on September 10, 2012, 11:08:48 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on September 10, 2012, 11:08:48 pm
quote of JD "We have not replaced the muffler with a resonator (yet). I expect such a change would improve performance and heat management a bit. I would expect a marginal improvement in fuel mileage."
Big change in heat management and better climbing, better fuel economy, and pick up. I would encourage you to add the banks Stinger if you do remove muffler then your feelings will change, believe me. My 350 is a different engine now.
John H
Big change in heat management and better climbing, better fuel economy, and pick up. I would encourage you to add the banks Stinger if you do remove muffler then your feelings will change, believe me. My 350 is a different engine now.
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 11, 2012, 04:44:52 am
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 11, 2012, 04:44:52 am
Another small point, I find using the cruise control does burn more fuel than using my foot on throttle. Keep eye on the VMSpc, the HP and Torque numbers are up & down on a level road on cruise, while on the foot, it holds much more steady numbers.
No exact provable numbers, but my guess is my foot control is worth .3 to .5 mpg gain over the crusie control on the average.
Find the same trend on my F350 4X4 diesel service vehicle, foot vs cruise, foot wins everytime.
Dave M
No exact provable numbers, but my guess is my foot control is worth .3 to .5 mpg gain over the crusie control on the average.
Find the same trend on my F350 4X4 diesel service vehicle, foot vs cruise, foot wins everytime.
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dean & Dee on September 11, 2012, 10:57:21 am
Post by: Dean & Dee on September 11, 2012, 10:57:21 am
Another small point, I find using the cruise control does burn more fuel than using my foot on throttle.
Dave M
Dean
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: txforetravel on September 11, 2012, 12:01:40 pm
Post by: txforetravel on September 11, 2012, 12:01:40 pm
Dave, can we assume that the "Foot" wins everytime as you have the foot pushed to the floorboard? :)
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 11, 2012, 12:24:47 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on September 11, 2012, 12:24:47 pm
Oh yeah, some times I use full throttle, but with the ISM500 setup, that is not needed very often unless I just want to feel good. Otherwise I just modulate the throttle keeping the hp and torque numbers as steady as I can, I usually allow it to slow down on minor grades and let it speed up when go over the top. This gives real good mileage, the drawback, this is very boring and not a feel good, but it does give you some very big numbers on the VMSpc display. I can easy get over 10 mpg at 60ish but as said, very boring and not a bit of fun. So down goes the throttle, back to the mid 8's and some happiness.
With the good preformance of this coach, 500 hp, resonator, 30K lbs, I play with lots of wannabee RV, truck and some cars when it comes to going up mtns.
At my age, nothing beats a strong running coach, Whoopee ;D
Dave M
With the good preformance of this coach, 500 hp, resonator, 30K lbs, I play with lots of wannabee RV, truck and some cars when it comes to going up mtns.
At my age, nothing beats a strong running coach, Whoopee ;D
Dave M
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on September 19, 2012, 07:57:52 am
Post by: John S on September 19, 2012, 07:57:52 am
I can get well over 8 if I run at 55 mph but it drops to 7.4 to 7.9 at 65-70 mph.... The mountains drop me down about .5 mpg. The resonator was the best fuel milage increasing modification I have made. I have paid for it already in less than a year on better milage. I run the same trip to Spokane Washington three to four times a year. Same roads and same time of year. The Silverleaf shows the milage and I compared the fill ups and the total number of gallons. It works out to to an over 43 gallon difference round trip. THat is actual fill up gallons and the summer trip had the generator on the whole trip out and back except for 3 hours while the spring and fall trips have not much genset use, I still saved over 43 gallons on the trip in the summer and a bit more in the spring trip. I will let you know how the fall trip works. The total miles is about 7000.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Rick on September 19, 2012, 08:28:06 am
Post by: Rick on September 19, 2012, 08:28:06 am
Time is running out for my opportunity to do a resonator upgrade this year. I am aware that many have made the change but have transmission retarders and I think I have read all the posts regarding the "slight" increase in noise. One concern that has held me back is the anticipated noise increase. I have a CAT 3176b engine with a Jake brake. When I see the signs restricting engine brake use I never worry about the noise and use the Jake because it is so quiet with the big muffler. With the resonator (AT5050XL)do you think I would still be able to use the Jake brake in the posted noise sensitive areas without exposing myself to a violation? So the bottom line is, in their Foretravel has anyone with one of the large engines (CAT or Cummins) with a Jake brake changed out the muffler for the Aero resonator, and can you tell me what kind of noise increase there is? Does it affect/restrict your usage of the Jake brake in the posted areas?
Thank you,
Rick
Thank you,
Rick
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on September 19, 2012, 11:16:25 am
Post by: John Haygarth on September 19, 2012, 11:16:25 am
Rick, this most probably does not answer your specific question but as I did the change over a year ago there is hardly any real increase in sound. I do have the trans' retarder but having said that I am sure someone with a exhaust brake has too and can answer that one, and if they have then I did not see any posting talking about "a great increase in noise when using ex' brake"
John H
John H
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: J. D. Stevens on September 19, 2012, 11:40:47 am
Post by: J. D. Stevens on September 19, 2012, 11:40:47 am
One concern that has held me back is the anticipated noise increase. I have a CAT 3176b engine with a Jake brake.
People sometimes refer to an exhaust brake as a "Jake brake." The true "Jake brake" is a braking system that uses engine compression. Compression release engine brake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_release_engine_brake)
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Roland Begin on September 19, 2012, 12:24:45 pm
Post by: Roland Begin on September 19, 2012, 12:24:45 pm
I have an Extrador exhaust brake and a resonator. The resonator has a nice sound to it, not obnoxious just a nice throaty sound. The Extrador brake may increase the exhaust sound a bit but not enough to worry about. The noise ordinances have been set up because some big trucks have UNMUFFLED jake brakes and leave them on unnecessarily cause they like the noise, (happens to be one of my pet peeves). Hope this helps.
Roland
Roland
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Rick on September 19, 2012, 12:45:41 pm
Post by: Rick on September 19, 2012, 12:45:41 pm
JD,
It is an engine compression brake made by Jacobs. I guess they make exhaust brakes too but most refer to the compression brake as a "Jake Brake" although it does surprise me how many people do not understand the compression brake concept even long time "professional" truck drivers. I guess that's why they are just drivers. If run without any noise suppression the compression brake is loud hence my concern using the smaller resonator.
Roland,
It amazes me that after all the noise supression engineering and hardware that goes into motorhomes and trucks there are those who want them to sound like straight piped Harley's.
John H,
I think I will order the parts and get this going. I will hang onto the old muffler just in case.
Thanks all for your inputs,
Rick
It is an engine compression brake made by Jacobs. I guess they make exhaust brakes too but most refer to the compression brake as a "Jake Brake" although it does surprise me how many people do not understand the compression brake concept even long time "professional" truck drivers. I guess that's why they are just drivers. If run without any noise suppression the compression brake is loud hence my concern using the smaller resonator.
Roland,
It amazes me that after all the noise supression engineering and hardware that goes into motorhomes and trucks there are those who want them to sound like straight piped Harley's.
John H,
I think I will order the parts and get this going. I will hang onto the old muffler just in case.
Thanks all for your inputs,
Rick
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Bill Chaplin on September 19, 2012, 01:48:23 pm
Post by: Bill Chaplin on September 19, 2012, 01:48:23 pm
I once saw (Fam Camp @ Davis-Monthan AFB, cira 2000 ) That had an electric brake system. It was a field coil around the drive shaft. When activated it was like loading a generator, causing a load on the driveshaft.
It was on an older Vogue motorhome.
It was on an older Vogue motorhome.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dwayne on September 25, 2012, 10:18:39 pm
Post by: Dwayne on September 25, 2012, 10:18:39 pm
Probably my next project. Not thinking of resonator as I don't think it would help much. My exhaust system is full of pinholes and should be replaced. I didn't notice it was so bad and hadn't even given it any thought. DW spends a lot of time camped out in the BR while we travel and like the canary in the coal mine she's still kicking so it must not be harmful as I imagine driving down the road there is a lot of air gushing around. We never sit for long with the engine running so I don't imagine it is that big a deal. It isn't loud either.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck Pearson on September 25, 2012, 10:25:11 pm
Post by: Chuck Pearson on September 25, 2012, 10:25:11 pm
DW spends a lot of time camped out in the BR while we travel and like the canary in the coal mine she's still kicking so it must not be harmful
Yeah Dwayne, but the real test is is she singing? When the canary falls silent is when you know you got a problem.
Chuck
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on August 11, 2013, 04:19:31 pm
Post by: John S on August 11, 2013, 04:19:31 pm
I started the coach yesterday and the guy next to me came over and said what did you do to your coach. It has a great sound. I said it was a low rider race bus..... we laughed then looked at the resonator. Oh no, Dave M. you have started this trend now on Monoco's as he is going to do the same thing when he gets home.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on August 11, 2013, 05:00:51 pm
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on August 11, 2013, 05:00:51 pm
Hi John,
I did not start anything, except to try to wake up some thoughts for the few who have an interest and care for a less costly muffler and improvement in performance .
Some get it, most stay clueless.
The fact is some notice a 50 hp gain some would not notice a 300 hp gain.
Guess the ones who made the switch are smiling, the others say "What ?".
I did not start anything, except to try to wake up some thoughts for the few who have an interest and care for a less costly muffler and improvement in performance .
Some get it, most stay clueless.
The fact is some notice a 50 hp gain some would not notice a 300 hp gain.
Guess the ones who made the switch are smiling, the others say "What ?".
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Tom Lang on August 12, 2013, 01:14:05 pm
Post by: Tom Lang on August 12, 2013, 01:14:05 pm
I had the resonator installed on my U295, ISL-400 last week and just drove from Los Angeles to the Bay Area via I-5 and the grapevine.
First noticed that it sounds different, more throaty, with a couple of resonant rpms.
Throttle response is definitely more lively.
Speed going up the Grapevine maybe a couple of mph faster.
Instantaneous mpg on the flats pretty much unchanged.
First noticed that it sounds different, more throaty, with a couple of resonant rpms.
Throttle response is definitely more lively.
Speed going up the Grapevine maybe a couple of mph faster.
Instantaneous mpg on the flats pretty much unchanged.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on August 12, 2013, 01:27:52 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on August 12, 2013, 01:27:52 pm
did you notice a big change in engine compartment temp' like I did. Your bed is much cooler I bet so therefore engine is runnig cooler, should make it better
John h
John h
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Tom Lang on August 12, 2013, 01:30:07 pm
Post by: Tom Lang on August 12, 2013, 01:30:07 pm
did you notice a big change in engine compartment temp' like I did. Your bed is much cooler I bet so therefore engine is runnig cooler, should make it better
John h
I couldn't say. :-)
But I did notice a large unused space needing utilization. Maybe a bin for dirty stuff.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on August 12, 2013, 01:55:35 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on August 12, 2013, 01:55:35 pm
wow, that was the first thing I noticed.
I made a aluminum cabinet for the area behind wheel and am contemplating cutting that rear panel for an access door and doing the same thing again. Not to put heavy things in just more crap.
John
not a good pic as I cannot open it full due to wall too close.
I made a aluminum cabinet for the area behind wheel and am contemplating cutting that rear panel for an access door and doing the same thing again. Not to put heavy things in just more crap.
John
not a good pic as I cannot open it full due to wall too close.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on August 12, 2013, 04:01:19 pm
Post by: John S on August 12, 2013, 04:01:19 pm
I might have to put a compartment door on mine too.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: rbark on August 12, 2013, 07:18:55 pm
Post by: rbark on August 12, 2013, 07:18:55 pm
I have a louvered door on mine, just need to make a compartment now. Think I'll use stainless steel wire mesh of some sort.
Richard B
Richard B
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Cooper on August 12, 2013, 11:29:54 pm
Post by: John Cooper on August 12, 2013, 11:29:54 pm
Someone requested an update on my resonator installation/experiment. While this is somewhat comparing apples to oranges, here goes: Previously I towed my 7000 lb Dodge Turbo Diesel 4 x 4 and really struggled up the hills. I am now towing a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited and have noticed that starting up from a dead stop seems effortless and most hills can be managed without any loss in speed, it feels more powerful. The only grade that gave me a serious problem was on I-90 going over the Continental Divide just east of Butte, MT. On that one I could just barely maintain 45 MPH and had to stop at the rest area to let it cool down some. I cannot tell about fuel economy yet as I have been pretty much climbing since I left Houston. My one measurement worked out to 8.89 MPG and we had a LOT of wind.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Nick Cagle on August 31, 2015, 09:26:28 am
Post by: Nick Cagle on August 31, 2015, 09:26:28 am
I've been doing some research on the site concerning the muffler replacement. It's time to make the change and I've got a couple of questions. My coach is a 1999 40' U295 with the 350HP 8.3 Cummins. I was wondering about the advantages/ disadvantages of the 4" system vs the 5" system. The turbo output and down pipe are 4" from the factory. The current muffler is 5" in & out. Connected to the 4" down pipe with a 4/5 adapter. Current tail pipe and exhaust tip are 5". Considering that over half of the total length of exhaust piping is 4" is there any real gain by using a 5" resonator. I will be using an Aero XL 4040 or Aero XL 5050. I know if I had the larger displacement M11 I would go with the 5", just wondering if the larger size is justified on the 8.3. Need to make a final decision and get the parts ordered. Thanks for the input.
Nick
Nick
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Doug W. on August 31, 2015, 10:06:34 am
Post by: Doug W. on August 31, 2015, 10:06:34 am
Aero XL models state that they have a turbine effect where it literally sucks the exhaust gas from the engine...
So if this is true moving up to a 5-inch Aero XL from 4 inch stock output at the engine may degrade some of this effect.
So if this is true moving up to a 5-inch Aero XL from 4 inch stock output at the engine may degrade some of this effect.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on August 31, 2015, 10:15:31 am
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on August 31, 2015, 10:15:31 am
Verify the (smallest) inside diameter (bore) of both 4040 and 5050 mufflers. You may find there is little difference. We also have a 4" turbo output and down pipe on our coach, and a 5" tailpipe. I have a stainless Magnaflow 12771 sitting in my shop, waiting on installation. I know in the case of Magnaflow, the 4" in/out model and the 5" in/out model both have a 4" core, so there is little point in going to the bigger, more expensive size. This may not be the case for Aero. Just something to check before you plunk down your cash...
Edit: This Aero "bore size" factor may already be covered somewhere in the prior 8 pages of this thread - I'm too lazy to look.
Edit: This Aero "bore size" factor may already be covered somewhere in the prior 8 pages of this thread - I'm too lazy to look.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 31, 2015, 10:16:49 am
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on August 31, 2015, 10:16:49 am
Easy to make claims without independent documentation for well witching devices, solar panels or mufflers. Too many Professor Hill types out there from the class of '05.
Pierce
Pierce
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Doug W. on August 31, 2015, 10:34:52 am
Post by: Doug W. on August 31, 2015, 10:34:52 am
I stayed with the 4 inch Aero XL on my 8.3
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: wa_desert_rat on August 31, 2015, 10:59:19 am
Post by: wa_desert_rat on August 31, 2015, 10:59:19 am
Sometimes it's very interesting to re-read old threads and this one was a doozy. I want to put a resonator on just to make the engine sound better, frankly. Any mpg or performance or cooling benefits would just be icing on the cake.
But Dave M.'s comments about putting the pedal down when you have the power proved to be right on; at least for me. I don't mind cruising along at 60mph on the flat (or even moderately hilly) but it turns out that when the hills get steep and the big trucks get slow I'm just as bad as anyone when it comes to not wanting to crawl along at 25mph when I can go faster. And it turns out that with the Banks on our little 5.9 they put in our U225, I can go a lot faster up the hills than most of the big trucks, a few of the medium trucks, and a couple of the cars.
Boy is that fun! I just wish I had more than 4 gears because I bet if I had a 6-speed Allison I'd go even faster.
Yes, I'm sure it impacted fuel economy but I kinda lost sight of that somewhere south of Eugene, OR on the way south last winter.
It looks to me like we have a 3" exhaust leading into a huge muffler and I can get a 3" resonator. Would there be any advantage to going with a 4" or 5"? I recognize that some of you think that putting a resonator on that engine probably wouldn't make much of a differrence anyway... but still...
Craig
But Dave M.'s comments about putting the pedal down when you have the power proved to be right on; at least for me. I don't mind cruising along at 60mph on the flat (or even moderately hilly) but it turns out that when the hills get steep and the big trucks get slow I'm just as bad as anyone when it comes to not wanting to crawl along at 25mph when I can go faster. And it turns out that with the Banks on our little 5.9 they put in our U225, I can go a lot faster up the hills than most of the big trucks, a few of the medium trucks, and a couple of the cars.
Boy is that fun! I just wish I had more than 4 gears because I bet if I had a 6-speed Allison I'd go even faster.
Yes, I'm sure it impacted fuel economy but I kinda lost sight of that somewhere south of Eugene, OR on the way south last winter.
It looks to me like we have a 3" exhaust leading into a huge muffler and I can get a 3" resonator. Would there be any advantage to going with a 4" or 5"? I recognize that some of you think that putting a resonator on that engine probably wouldn't make much of a differrence anyway... but still...
Craig
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John/Pat on August 31, 2015, 11:18:34 am
Post by: John/Pat on August 31, 2015, 11:18:34 am
Doug I followed Neal's list buying everything on line and had Bern'd install it while I was at his shop. Based on what I saw, I should have done it myself except for the welding. Taking it to a welding shop after installation or even checking the phone book for a welder that would come to your location. Based on my personal experience, you will over pay if you have a shop doing it.
Like Dave and others have said it is a noticeable improvement in performance. I also have a C8.3 so I stayed with 4" to avoid cutting larger hole for the exit hole.
Like Dave and others have said it is a noticeable improvement in performance. I also have a C8.3 so I stayed with 4" to avoid cutting larger hole for the exit hole.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on August 31, 2015, 11:54:46 am
Post by: John Haygarth on August 31, 2015, 11:54:46 am
John, my view too on a shop doing it as this is one of the easiest jobs to do on a coach. If you need a welder to make the 4"-5" transition why not have it made at a muffler shop then do the install yourself? New brackets can be hung from many places.
Craig, to answer your question on wether the Resonator will make a difference as you have a Banks too, I would say yes.
You will not loose anything and as this is a minor cost in reality to many others I would say "go for it"
JohnH
Craig, to answer your question on wether the Resonator will make a difference as you have a Banks too, I would say yes.
You will not loose anything and as this is a minor cost in reality to many others I would say "go for it"
JohnH
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Andy 2 on August 31, 2015, 12:45:42 pm
Post by: Andy 2 on August 31, 2015, 12:45:42 pm
I did mine and the hardest part is that danged old muffler,took me about 3 hours and it was easy with new clamps and a sawsall. With our 6v 92 it's bit louder but certainly.have seen a difference in our bedroom temperature and..engine temperature. Good luck.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: TAS69 on August 31, 2015, 01:55:57 pm
Post by: TAS69 on August 31, 2015, 01:55:57 pm
Noticed lower exhaust temp and better throttle response with previous coach, 8.3 mechanical with Banks kit
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 01, 2015, 04:42:16 pm
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 01, 2015, 04:42:16 pm
Well, this recent chatter about exhaust mods provided the push I needed to get off my.....rear....and finally start my own project. Got half of it done today (the hard part) - will finish after I get a few parts. I think all I will need is a 4" 90 degree bend to go between the down pipe and the muffler, and a 4" to 5" adapter to connect muffler to exhaust pipe, plus a couple clamps. I'm going to try to modify the OEM muffler hangers to work with the new muffler. More photos in a couple days. 8)
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Hans&Marjet on September 01, 2015, 05:02:10 pm
Post by: Hans&Marjet on September 01, 2015, 05:02:10 pm
Well, this recent chatter about exhaust mods provided the push I needed to get off my.....rear....and finally start my own project. Got half of it done today (the hard part) - will finish after I get a few parts. I think all I will need is a 4" 90 degree bend to go between the down pipe and the muffler, and a 4"to 5" adapter to connect muffler to exhaust pipe, plus a couple clamps. I'm going to try to modify the OEM muffler hangers to work with the new muffler. More photos in a couple days. 8)
3rd pic looks like Mama with a "little one" :)
Hans
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: danieljeff545 on September 01, 2015, 05:15:22 pm
Post by: danieljeff545 on September 01, 2015, 05:15:22 pm
Well, this recent chatter about exhaust mods provided the push I needed to get off my.....rear....and finally start my own project. Got half of it done today (the hard part) - will finish after I get a few parts. I think all I will need is a 4" 90 degree bend to go between the down pipe and the muffler, and a 4"to 5" adapter to connect muffler to exhaust pipe, plus a couple clamps. I'm going to try to modify the OEM muffler hangers to work with the new muffler. More photos in a couple days. 8)
Good luck re-using the mounts. I was not so lucky...I tried to re-use them and thought i did a pretty good job but it wasn't up to the tasks (they ended up sagging and the resonator was bouncing around). IMHO I would save yourself the headache and just start from new mounting hardware.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 01, 2015, 06:13:42 pm
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 01, 2015, 06:13:42 pm
Jeff,
Since you have a "Cat", your exhaust system may be suspended differently than mine. You can see my OEM hangers in my 5th photo above. They are 2 flexible steel straps that hang down from a rubber mounted heavy duty steel bracket. Since they supported the original muffler for 22 years, I am sure they are strong enough to hold up the new one. I just need to cut the straps at one end and shorten them sufficiently to fit the smaller muffler, then reattach the end pieces. I'll give it a try, anyhoo...if it don't work, there's always plan "B". 8)
Since you have a "Cat", your exhaust system may be suspended differently than mine. You can see my OEM hangers in my 5th photo above. They are 2 flexible steel straps that hang down from a rubber mounted heavy duty steel bracket. Since they supported the original muffler for 22 years, I am sure they are strong enough to hold up the new one. I just need to cut the straps at one end and shorten them sufficiently to fit the smaller muffler, then reattach the end pieces. I'll give it a try, anyhoo...if it don't work, there's always plan "B". 8)
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Doug W. on September 01, 2015, 06:31:33 pm
Post by: Doug W. on September 01, 2015, 06:31:33 pm
Chuck we have the same configuration I went to plan b
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Andy 2 on September 01, 2015, 07:02:16 pm
Post by: Andy 2 on September 01, 2015, 07:02:16 pm
Looks good Chuck, I think you are going to like it. We just came over I 80 west bound and went over the sisters a really long steep climb and really like the little extra power and when we got here to park city the bedroom was a lot cooler. Good Luck on your project.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 01, 2015, 08:33:06 pm
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 01, 2015, 08:33:06 pm
...I went to plan B.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Doug W. on September 01, 2015, 08:43:02 pm
Post by: Doug W. on September 01, 2015, 08:43:02 pm
Thanks to your post, I just noticed I have a broken hanger, In a picture that I hadn't posted. Can't even blame it on a washboard road south of the border!
Edit: after a closer look this hanger turned out to be one with a hook instead of a pass through, it's been a few years since install.
Edit: after a closer look this hanger turned out to be one with a hook instead of a pass through, it's been a few years since install.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: amos.harrison on September 01, 2015, 08:48:56 pm
Post by: amos.harrison on September 01, 2015, 08:48:56 pm
Craig,
I've read articles in the Turbo Diesel Register that showed no improvement in performance going larger than 3" dia. with the 5.9.
I've read articles in the Turbo Diesel Register that showed no improvement in performance going larger than 3" dia. with the 5.9.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: wa_desert_rat on September 01, 2015, 09:18:00 pm
Post by: wa_desert_rat on September 01, 2015, 09:18:00 pm
Craig,
I've read articles in the Turbo Diesel Register that showed no improvement in performance going larger than 3" dia. with the 5.9.
Craig
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Doug W. on September 01, 2015, 09:33:48 pm
Post by: Doug W. on September 01, 2015, 09:33:48 pm
Craig, 4 inch straight front to back with a k&n filter, sounds good! and yes I carry a paper filter also... a little Baja teaser.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 04, 2015, 10:35:15 pm
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 04, 2015, 10:35:15 pm
Finished my muffler install today. I'm real happy with the result. The muscle aches, joint pain and stiffness will wear off, eventually...
Things went together pretty much like I planned. I reused the tailpipe, and it ended up sticking out 1" further than before. It is now perfectly centered in the fiberglass cutout - before it was resting on (being supported by) the edge of the hole. For my installation (besides the muffler), I only had to purchase one 4" 90 degree angle, and one 4" to 5" adapter, plus a couple clamps. I reused 3 clamps and the short piece of stainless flex pipe. I scavenged the rubber pieces out of some extra exhaust hangers I had on hand. At the front of the muffler, I made two supports that attach to the clamp bolts. At the rear, I reused one of the old muffler support straps, but modified it to fit the smaller muffler. The tailpipe was still a little "loose" feeling, so I added a turnbuckle to limit the movement. The tailpipe can move, but it won't hit the edges of the hole.
Fired up the big engine, but I couldn't hear much difference. I don't think its any louder, at least at idle. The real test will come when we take it for a spin. Can't wait! 8)
Things went together pretty much like I planned. I reused the tailpipe, and it ended up sticking out 1" further than before. It is now perfectly centered in the fiberglass cutout - before it was resting on (being supported by) the edge of the hole. For my installation (besides the muffler), I only had to purchase one 4" 90 degree angle, and one 4" to 5" adapter, plus a couple clamps. I reused 3 clamps and the short piece of stainless flex pipe. I scavenged the rubber pieces out of some extra exhaust hangers I had on hand. At the front of the muffler, I made two supports that attach to the clamp bolts. At the rear, I reused one of the old muffler support straps, but modified it to fit the smaller muffler. The tailpipe was still a little "loose" feeling, so I added a turnbuckle to limit the movement. The tailpipe can move, but it won't hit the edges of the hole.
Fired up the big engine, but I couldn't hear much difference. I don't think its any louder, at least at idle. The real test will come when we take it for a spin. Can't wait! 8)
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Doug W. on September 04, 2015, 11:03:43 pm
Post by: Doug W. on September 04, 2015, 11:03:43 pm
Looks good Chuck, you're confident it's not too close to the coach floor. I know the old one was up there but that had more surface area to dissipate the heat...
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on September 04, 2015, 11:26:01 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on September 04, 2015, 11:26:01 pm
Looking at pictures I would guess it is about 8-10" down from floor. Lots of room.
JohnH
JohnH
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 04, 2015, 11:55:10 pm
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 04, 2015, 11:55:10 pm
...not too close to the coach floor...
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: car54 on September 05, 2015, 08:10:37 am
Post by: car54 on September 05, 2015, 08:10:37 am
Looks as good or better than pics of berndts installs... and it probably cost you a coach buck less or so. =)
win-win!
win-win!
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John/Pat on September 05, 2015, 08:23:16 am
Post by: John/Pat on September 05, 2015, 08:23:16 am
Matt I agree with that statement, the only thing based on my experience he saved more than 1 coach buck doing himself.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 05, 2015, 09:40:43 am
Post by: Chuck & Jeannie on September 05, 2015, 09:40:43 am
Money isn't everything, but I don't mind saving it when possible. Then I can spend it elsewhere! In case anyone is keeping score, my cash outlay for this project is as follows:
Magnaflow 12771 (from Amazon Prime, free shipping) $123.00
4" short 90 elbow, 4" to 5" adapter, 2 clamps (local truck supply) $ 61.17
Various small bits of hardware from personal cache, + Labor $ FREE
Reclining under the coach for most of 2 days in 90 degree heat PRICELESS
Magnaflow 12771 (from Amazon Prime, free shipping) $123.00
4" short 90 elbow, 4" to 5" adapter, 2 clamps (local truck supply) $ 61.17
Various small bits of hardware from personal cache, + Labor $ FREE
Reclining under the coach for most of 2 days in 90 degree heat PRICELESS
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on September 05, 2015, 10:47:21 am
Post by: John Haygarth on September 05, 2015, 10:47:21 am
Well done Chuck, and I will say it again , you do NOT have to take your coach to any shop to do this change, unless of course there are physical constraints with ones body( or you have too much money). I am slowly getting to know what that feels like too!!
JohnH
JohnH
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Ted & Karen on September 05, 2015, 11:42:38 am
Post by: Ted & Karen on September 05, 2015, 11:42:38 am
Great job Chuck- you will really like the difference on the road.
John H.- I agree that he saved a lot by doing it himself. There are some of us on this forum who have much less mechanical skills, tools, and a place to work on a coach ( full time on the road) , so we have to rely on someone else to do it. The real shame is that we don't have too much $$$, but would like to have the ability to team up with those who have a shop, pit, tools, etc, to do projects and get advice on how to do these things. I would be very happy to share $$$, meals, liquid refreshments, etc in order to do regular maintenance with someone who has gone there before.
Hope to see you at Quartzite again- this year no problems................ ^.^d
John H.- I agree that he saved a lot by doing it himself. There are some of us on this forum who have much less mechanical skills, tools, and a place to work on a coach ( full time on the road) , so we have to rely on someone else to do it. The real shame is that we don't have too much $$$, but would like to have the ability to team up with those who have a shop, pit, tools, etc, to do projects and get advice on how to do these things. I would be very happy to share $$$, meals, liquid refreshments, etc in order to do regular maintenance with someone who has gone there before.
Hope to see you at Quartzite again- this year no problems................ ^.^d
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: Doug W. on September 05, 2015, 12:24:31 pm
Post by: Doug W. on September 05, 2015, 12:24:31 pm
^.^d
Yep, pictures look a little deceiving expescially on my 2.5 x 4 inch samsung screen
Yes, John is correct - the photo angle makes it look a lot closer to the floor than it actually is. There is much more room above the new muffler than there was with the old one. Look at my earlier photos, where I had the new muffler laying on the ground next to the old one. The old muffler was actually touching the "C" channel iron mounting bar. You can see the rust marks on the top of the case. The new muffler is suspended several inches below the bar at the same height as the the inlet of the old muffler, which was in the center of the case. Airflow around the new muffler should also be much improved.
Yep, pictures look a little deceiving expescially on my 2.5 x 4 inch samsung screen
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: danieljeff545 on September 05, 2015, 03:12:16 pm
Post by: danieljeff545 on September 05, 2015, 03:12:16 pm
Looks great Chuck!! It's been about 9 months since my switch and I didn't notice much performance improvement and my MPH is about the same (10.5-10.8). The only noise difference the DW noticed (my hearing isn't that great so I'm not a good judge) was when next to a cement barrier she thought it was a "little louder". I just thought it was a little throatier...Its a good DIY project
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John Haygarth on September 05, 2015, 04:53:03 pm
Post by: John Haygarth on September 05, 2015, 04:53:03 pm
Ted and karen, if anyone wanted to come this way they are welcome to do so and can use the pit and my help anytime. No one wants to come here even though they are missing one of the best places on earth to be. we have the space for another coach and 30amp hook up, so, any time (as long as we are here of course)
We will most probably not make it this winter as we will be doing an around US trip then down to Mexico again end of Dec.
Yes, no more problems for sure.
JohnH
We will most probably not make it this winter as we will be doing an around US trip then down to Mexico again end of Dec.
Yes, no more problems for sure.
JohnH
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: John S on September 07, 2015, 01:10:12 pm
Post by: John S on September 07, 2015, 01:10:12 pm
Well done. You will love it.
Title: Re: Resonator and muffler replacement
Post by: kenhat on September 08, 2015, 01:10:09 am
Post by: kenhat on September 08, 2015, 01:10:09 am