While sitting in the Foretravel customer waiting room last week, we were told that if you buy diesel at anything other than a major truck stop that use their own delivery trucks dedicated to diesel you are probably getting gasoline mixed in with your diesel. According to this gentleman who used to drive tankers, when a jobber delivers diesel they usually use the same tanker that they use for gasoline. Normally the tanker may have up to several hundred gallons of gas in the tank when the refill it with diesel. He felt that sometimes there will be enough gas in the mix that it could cause premature wear on the older diesel engines.
I know we have a couple of former Tanker Drivers on the Forum. Number one, is this an accurate statement? If so, does anyone think there would be enough gas to cause harm?
We have found 10% gasoline to diesel, will not hurt it, not great, at one point it was thought it would improve performance in the diesel, Nope. The diesel never seemed to care one way or the other.
Dave M
I suppose that by the same rationale there is diesel in the gasoline delivered to retail dealers as well? I can imagine that it would be nealy impossible to pump 100% of the contents if the pumping system is damaged if pumping air.
Back in the old days when I worked at a trucking company we routinely put gasoline in the trucks diesel tanks in the winter, Never could tell if it made starting easier but the drivers thought it did.
Bad accident due to this procedure, rookie mechanic tried to see how much fuel was in a saddle tank with a lighted match, the gasoline in the diesel tank flared in his face causing serious damage. Even with the input of the safety department the practice continued. It is nice to be retired and such things are now somebody Else's fault.
Gary B
Mercedes factory position is up to 10% gasoline or 50% kerosene. Seems like up to 50% jet fuel would work also.
On a long sailing trip, I ran out of diesel but had 50 gallons of kerosene on deck in plastic containers so just used it in the Perkins diesel. Could not tell the difference.
Pierce
I drove a tanker in the mid 70's. We hauled both gas and diesel in the same tanks. When the tanks were dumped you would be lucky to get 5 gallon out of it. The company that the gentleman worked for that had "several hundred gallons" left must of had some very unhappy customers.
That's kinda what I thought. Thanks for the input from someone with experience.
Pat C, what's your input?
Back when I had my own truck we used to put 1 or 2 gallons of gasoline in a 150 gallon tank of diesel to keep it from "Gelling" in the extremely cold winter months, (10 degrees or less). also it is my understanding that number 1 diesel is just a more refined version of number 2 diesel. kerosene being number 1 or clear diesel, number 2 having more oil or impurities in it. Today the E.P.A. has changed the term "low sulphur" ? I'm not sure what we are getting now.....
Here's some explanation of the crude oil fractional distillation. Something of what a petrochemical engineer would start with...ChemE 101 if you would.
HowStuffWorks "How Oil Refining Works" (http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/oil-refining4.htm)
I had a VW diesel Rabbit back in the early 80s. The factory recommended mixing a gallon of regular with fill ups when the temps got much below freezing. I love VWs but hated that car even with the 45 mpg! Swore I'd never buy another diesel but then meet Big Agnes... :)
see ya
ken
Maybe one of the brains on this panel should figure out a blend that added up comes in cheaper than the #2 we use. Is that possible??
John h
We've had a few good diesel engines since we had a VW diesel engine. We are careful to fuel often with local seasonal fuel. With help from block heaters to keep engine oil warm, the good diesel engines perform well in cold weather. Our experience has been that they are tolerant of reasonable fuel mixtures as long as the fuels are clean and fresh.
I had a Volvo that used a VW diesel engine. The engine was inadequate for the vehicle. I liked the car, but the engine was a real piece of junk. I still kept the car for 17 years. It provided safe, low performance transportation for two teenage drivers. Traded it for $150 credit toward a Suburban to pull a 31' Airstream trailer.
First year we had the Volvo, we filled with diesel in Houston and drove to Oklahoma City for Christmas. Temperatures dropped below 10F. We managed to find about six gallons of kerosene to put into the fuel tank. After we shut it down, we pulled the Volvo with a Cadillac to get it running again. It smelled like a kerosene lamp. Lessons: 1) If you take a diesel engine to cold areas, have and use a block heater; 2) Take care to fill with winter grade fuels when temperatures are cold, or use appropriate additives.
Going back 50+ years in the petroleum pipeline industry (before I switched to nuclear) we would use the same pipeline to pump all grades of combustable fuel. We would for example run a batch of diesel, then jet fuel, then mogas, then av gas in that order. There is very little interface mixing, then we would reverse order. This did require carefull lab analysis to prevent human error.
Had a long talk with a very good friend that has been a long time John Deer dealer about the gas-- diesel mix thing .His reply is "gas in diesel won't hurt the diesel engine , won't help it either , but it will with out a doubt raise cain on the injector pump "also said "some injector pumps are more prone to early failure with this than others , but all will fail sooner or later . Injector pumps are fairly expensive, so i'd avoid that at all costs . He also said that some engines/injector pumps will take up to 10 % gas for a short period of time . Brad Metzger
I will say that the big Fuel tanks in our FT help this issue. If you fill up regularly at about half a tank, you will use different stations and should not really have an issue with too much gas in the fuel. I fill up at major truck stops only. I see the trucks coming in to dump fuel and they seem to be all diesel in that tank truck with another one behind it at times same way. I have seen only a few times a Flying J fill up with Gas. So, I have not really worried about it. I would say a contract company might haul different stuff in their trucks more often and that might be an issue at times. Interesting discussion though.
What can be a problem from buying diesel at a low volume dealer isn't the insignificant amount of gas mixed in with it but the condensation build up when the fuel sits in the storage tank for long periods of time.
Kent S said: "According to this gentleman who used to drive tankers, when a jobber delivers diesel they usually use the same tanker that they use for gasoline. Normally the tanker may have up to several hundred gallons of gas in the tank when the refill it with diesel"
Randy S said: "I drove a tanker in the mid 70's. We hauled both gas and diesel in the same tanks. When the tanks were dumped you would be lucky to get 5 gallon out of it. The company that the gentleman worked for that had "several hundred gallons" left must of had some very unhappy customers."
I'm with Randy on this. Had a very hard time believing the person you quoted in your original post. The company I retired from was one of the oldest in the industry, started in operation in 1925. They had a quality reputation to uphold and were fanatical when it came to training their drivers. There was the wrong way, the wrong way, and the company way - and one darn well better be doing it the company way. If they hired a experienced driver who had worked for another petroleum transportation company, they put him through the same training as if he never hauled petroleum products, cause they did not want him bring any old habits with him from the other company. So when I read that your man said it was normal to "have up to several hundred gallons of gas in the tank" before filling it with diesel, I almost flipped. He would not have lasted long where I worked. But our competition, well, they were always in a big hurry, were not well paid, were not well trained, did not have the greatest equipment. And they did not pull any of the brand name, top tier, stations that we did.
I can also state that most petroleum transport companies use dedicated transports (tank trailers) for the new ultra low sulfur diesel because of the tendency of the product to pick up contaminates. And most refineries have a policy against what is called "Switch Loading". There are documented cases of explosions at refinery loading racks caused by switch loading. Switch loading is caused by Diesel fuel, and in particular low and ultra low sulfur diesel fuel, having the capability of accumulating a static electrical charge of sufficient energy to cause a fire/explosion in the presence of lower flashpoint products such as gasoline. The accumulation of such a static charge occurs as the diesel flows through pipelines, filters, nozzles and various work tasks such as tank/container filling, splash loading, tank cleaning; product sampling; tank gauging; cleaning, mixing, vacuum truck operations, switch loading, and product agitation. There is a greater potential for static charge accumulation in cold temperature, low humidity conditions. Every refinery loading rack that I have ever loaded at has signs in each loading bay that reads "No Switch Loading". If you are caught doing this, the penalty is usually being barred from the refinery. But I have to admit that it probably still goes on.
That is very true as well.
Thanks Pat, I suspected that the volume of gas was over stated. That would be an awful lot.
Had a 1980 vw diesel . Had it in Mich for just over 5 years and 500,000 miles before it let go. Great back and forth to work car never added gas to the tank just plugged it the block heater. Gam
Wweeellll, over stated, but - I do know of a incident where 5 loads of refinery "water" ended up being delivered to the diesel tanks of a large, well known, truckstop just off the I-90 NYS Thruway. Someone at the refinery turned the wrong valves!!! There were tractor trailers broken down on both sides of the thruway for several miles after they fueled up. The refinery really bit the bullet on that one!
I saw the same thing happen a few years ago on I 81 but it was a tank that was left open somehow slightly and we had a huge heavy rain come and there was two inches in the parking lot and it went to the lowest point, the diesel tank. There were trucks up and down I 81 with water in their tanks. What tipped them off was the truck that did not make it out of the lot. I was pulling in and decided to wait till the rain let up to fuel and was going to spend the night. I got to see a lot of mobile service trucks and some very unhappy drivers.
Kent, just out of curiosity, was the party that told you about the gas and/or diesel mixes an authority or merely someone passing on a tale that would be attributed to "They" say --, as in "they" say the world will end on Dec. 21,2012.
Just wondering, as you were at FOT and there are knowledgeable people there, and here on this forum.
He claimed to have been a tanker driver at one time. Overall, he was a very knowledgeable guy and pretty credible in our other discussions.
It is all about the training procedures of the transport company. When the driver starts his day, he is suppose to physically climb up on top and check each compartment of the tanker and make sure it is empty. After he delivers his load, he is suppose to physically check each compartment again to see if it is empty. If he gauges the stations tank before and after he drops his load, he would know only approximately how much he has delivered. At a truck stop, they can pump a thousand gallons while you are dropping your load. If he and his cohort on the opposite shift are lackadaisical about how they do their jobs, they are going to goof up and end up doing what your fellow described. And I hate to admit that it went on in my profession, but it did. but it went on because the trucking company did not care, and their customers did not care. The company I worked for prided their selves on their long standing quality control and safety record. They did not mind the fact that it cost a little extra money to accomplish that record. Not all petroleum transport companies operate that way. The way some operate is down right scary, but it reflects in their SAFER WEB (http://www.safersys.org/) record.
Pat, its great to see someone who is proud of their employer and their profession. Yea, driving a big rig is a profession or at least it used to be. Thanks for you comments.
If I'm reading this correctly/my take:
-a minor (let's say 1% or so of gas can be added to diesel, to inhibit gelling in winter/freezing conditions/maybe add some octane/cetane punch as in better ignition purposes in winter)
-Kerosene(quite close) might be acceptable in dire needs.... as a blend.
and---Ultra low and low sulpher diesel fuels are of concern on "Older diesels".
If so, on the older diesel comment, we have run for years on advice from an Army friend running floating nuclear power plant for Panama Canal, to add 1 Qt. of 2 cycle oil to 100 gallons of low sulpher diesel to add "lublicity" back into the fuel.
I have followed his advice for a decade and many others too, but yes, I do understand there are 'many' additives that one can buy off the shelf in the U.S. but wonder if any of this forums sharp folks can add a comment here?
thanks in advance, ron
You will have an issue if you do it to a late model coach with a particulate filter on it I would think.
Older coaches no problem issues with that.
Finally!! We have a subject to which I can contribute rather just soak up information.
I worked for 30+ years at a refinery. I was Process Supervisor over many different refinery operating units during my career. My areas of responsibility included the fuel truck loading terminal, the pipeline receiving and shipping tank farm, crude distillation units where we produced gasoline, diesel, jet fuel, and kerosene, the alkylation units which procude a very high octane component for gasoline, and the distillate hydrotreaters which remove sulphur from diesel, kerosene, and jet fuel.
I'm telling you this just to say that I think I do have some knowledge of the subject. Also, reading Pat C's comments I can tell that he too has been there, done that.
First, I think it would take a serious mistake on the part of a truck driver to leave 300 gallons of product in a tank. When a tanker drops their load at the retail store, it is all a gravity flow downhill drop. The receiving tanks are gauged before and after, and retailer naturally wants every gallon for which they are charged on the bill of lading. When the tanker drops their load, it all goes into the storage tanks.
There is one scenario with which I am familiar. A truck driver once accidentally loaded a couple hundred gallons of gasoline into tank designated for diesel before he realized that he'd made a mistake. He stopped the pumping, then finished filling the tank with about 1200 gallons of diesel. The bill of lading clearly showed both products. He wanted me to change the BOL so that it showed pure diesel, for his boss would get mad if he found out. I, of course, would not change the BOL, and he had to drop the entire load into a waste tank to be re-refined. This situation would be extremely rare, and would not be tolerated by any manager.
Some tank trucks have 4 or 5 compartments and can haul any grades of gas and diesel. These are the tankers you see at your local gasoline stations. However, tankers that haul only diesel almost entirely to truck stops have only one large 7300 gallon compartment and are dedicated to diesel.
A little (very little) gasoline will contaminate a large quantity of diesel. I don't remember the exact specs off the top of my head, but the initial boiling point and the flash point of gasoline is much lower than that of diesel. Even a 5% blend would not meet pipeline specs. By the same token the distillation end point of diesel is a lot higher than gasoline, so a little diesel would contaminate gasoline too. Refiners go to a great deal of trouble to prevent mixing. In the real world we might get away with a little missing, but the refiners and retailers would never knowingly do that.
#2 diesel is a kissing cousin to kerosene and jet fuel. Kerosene and jet are for all practical purposes the same product. They are just a slightly lighter cut (lower end point) than diesel. Winter grade diesel has a lower cloud point than summer grade diesel, and cloud point is proportional to end point. So, yes, if you have #2 diesel and want to run it in cold weather, mix it with kerosene or jet fuel.
Low sulphur diesel is an EPA mandated product. Prior to 1991 diesel had up to 5000 ppm (0.5%) sulphur. You may remember the constant blue haze coming off the truck exhaust stacks. This was the haze that covered Los Angeles. In 1991 refiners had to produce diesel with less than 500 ppm, (0.05%)or a reduction of 10-fold. A few years later, about 2002, the specs changed again, with a max of 50 ppm. Finally, in 2009 the specs changed again with a max of 15 ppm. It costs a tremendous amount of money to build and operate the huge hydrotreaters to produce ultra-low sulphur diesel. The problem with low sulphur diesel was not lubricity, but instead had to do with the type of seals used in the injector pumps. I'm relying on memory, but I think they had to go to viton seals versus the old standard of buna-N seals.
Sorry to bore you, but I felt I needed to shed some light on this subject.
Glen
Glen, not boring at all. Thanks for the info.
Glen, thanks! Great feedback!
I was ready to head off on a circumnavigation in '04, with an '88 Ford Lehman non aspirated diesel. Pulled injectors and had them rebuilt at a top shelf marine shop in lauderdale, fl.
My info was that 'lubricity and sulpher' had to do more with wearing of rings and cylinder walls, rather than seals.
From what you are saying, the low sulpher diesel might be affecting the wearing of the formulations of the seals rather than or moreso, the metal to metal components?
If one or the other, do you believe commercial additives or simply adding a lubricant like 2 cycle oil in minor amounts can benefit the 'seals or rings'?
What is your suggestion for older diesels.............back 10 years or so?
again, thanks in advance!! ron
Very interesting article Glenn.
If the problem is not lubricity with the ULSulphur then why have a number of companies jumped om the low sulphur and come out with additives to increase lubricity?? I think we all knew there was some problem with the pumps if you have a post 2007 engine and use the old high sulphur fuel (ie-Mexican product at the moment). Is not sulphur a lubricant of sorts in the Diesel?
John h
Here is a article on 15 and 30 ppm diesel south of the border as well as a link to monthly diesel prices: Current Mexican gasoline and diesel fuel cost (http://www.mexicomike.com/fuel_in_mexico/mexico_gas_diesel_prices.html)
Diesel is approx. 3.04 USD per gallon depending on exchange rate this month.
Pierce
Guys, my bad. What I said about lubricity is technically true, but factually wrong! I'm pasting a link to an article that is written by people much smarter than am I.
Does John Deere allow the use of Ultra-Low-Sulfur diesel fuel? : (http://www.deere.com/en_US/ag/servicesupport/tips/tractors/common_stories/ultra_low_sulfur_diesel_fuel.html#)
Basically, I was correct when I stated that sulphur in itself does not increase the lubricity. However, the hydrotreating process that removes the sulfur also removes some of the aromatics which DO increase the lubricity.
So I was right and wrong at the same time!
Glen
I think the problem is lack of lubricity!!! The injector pump folks say the problem is lubricity. But there is some real snake oil out on the market, and only a couple good additives which increase the lubricity of the USLD. Take a look at the following pdf from http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44499 (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=44499) You don't even want to think about putting Lucas, Howes, or even Power Services in your fuel!!! The Lucas even makes it worse than the base line!
Pat,
Good work! Looks like Professor Hill has been making and selling a lot of them. Will print this out to keep in the cab. I always bought some additive but it was a pig in a poke.
Pierce
good info all!
seems my old friend in Panama was correct for us cruising sailboats/older engines/ maybe non-aspirated engines..., for suggesting 2 cycle engine oil as an additive when fueling up with the lower sulphur fues., however looks like he should have doubled the dose.
Not a FT thing specifically because we can buy better products, but poor fishermen running diesels in their fishing boats supplied from major suppliers of the big countries doing the shipping, are also without the 'O'Rielly's, Auto Barns, Walmart stores. However, I will now pick up better products. Thanks!
:o Just to clear my head, From what I have read in the above article, I should be adding approximately; 62 oz of "Super-Tech" Outboard 2 cycle TC-W3 engine oil, to each 194 gallon fill-up of ultra low sulphur diesel fuel. and this would assist in the lubrication of my injector pump seals, and replace some of the lubricating qualities that are being removed during refining. ???
Gerry, From what i'm reading there and from 10 year old info from top notch 3rd world input (and I have to admit to CRS syndrome-I read this somewhere/before) YES. Maybe it's not the 'best' money can buy in the U.S. but it is certainly better than nothing if you use U.S. fuel..............and at the cost and availability, it's a step in the right direction. Think of what it does for gasoline engines with NO oiled bearings............(can't hurt).
Okay, anybody out there going to confirm? Are the prehistoric (prior to 2002) coaches in danger of damaging parts due to ULSD? If so, which are the most likely to go bump in the night? And is the 2 cycle oil thing a myth or real?
Peter
peter
two stroke oil is no myth as far as i'm concerned. I have been
adding 16 fl.ozs of 2 stroke (super tech from walmart) every
time I fuel up. I have been doing this for more than 12 years.
lubrication is a good thing, especially now with the low sulphur.
this has been hashed out in the past, but to each his own!
Wayne,
Thanks for the reply. I suppose if the addition of 2 cycle oil does no harm, why not use it if it can prevent premature wear.
Peter
Okay Brett,
Care to disclose what you do? Inquiring minds want to know. And we will not hold anything against you. Unless its a 21 year old blonde!.
Oh no..now I really did it. :headwall:
Peter,
You DO KNOW that Dianne can both read and write (and does so very well). Be afraid, VERRRRRRY afraid.
I add a BIOCIDE if storing diesel over 2 months in the summer or 3 months in the winter.
Also, if storing summer grade diesel (#2) into winter, add an anti-gel.
That's it.
Brett
Brett,
Danke schoen...very good input. And yes, I gotta watch myself from time to time... ;D
Peter
I add an anti gell from time to time especially if I am traveling in the winter. I go to Nac for service many Januarys and then not he way home I can go from 70 degrees to 5 degrees and we have large tanks. So, I will put in some anti gell and that is about it. I am at 124,000 on this coach and no issues. Had an oil analyst done to at cummins and they found nothing out of line either.
I'm going to start and continue to add Super Tech 2 cycle oil to my fuel Immediately! By my figures it should be 1 gallon oil per 200 gallons of fuel @ that I should arrive at 200/1 ratio... Cheap Insurance..... ^.^d
That is when you really need it, cause the winter blend is blended for the low ambient temps at the station when it is being delivered to. So when you are going from a warm area into a cold area, the fuel you started with will not do it!
Yup, that is very true and remember to run the genset to get it thru there as well.
After reading the referenced article, it seems like the thing to do would be to take on a full tank of bio diesel and then refill with reg diesel when tank is down 50%. On my 140 gallon tank that means I could pump in a total of 490 gallons (including the original bio fill) and still be at 3% ratio after burning this. That's real close to 5000 miles, seems like it ought to be possible to find another bio supplier in this range.
edit. After looking into it a bit more it appears that biodiesel attacks rubber and butyl. I don't know how much actual rubber and butyl are in the fuel system so this could be an issue. It might be that having a 20 gallon header tank and pump, similar to the bypass oil system, would work well and keep concentrations around 2%.
Chuck
Chuck, My experience with Bio Diesel was not good. Took on a tank of it in Wisconsin, a couple days later fuel filer was clogged with gunk and shut me down, guess Bio loosened up all the crud. Got much better mileage that tank but in the future I won't use BIO.
Gary B
I'm guessing we are dealing with extremes here. If ULS diesels has less lubricity, instead of a engine going one million miles before needing a rebuild, it might only go 900,000. I doubt that the miles most of us put on a motorhome will be enough to require supplemental lubricity. IMHO
But didn't it make you feel good that that crud was no longer in the system? ;D Did you have to change filters more than once?
Hard to say for sure but I expect you're right as far as the combustion section of the engine goes. I'm having a hard time seeing where the reduced lubricity of ULSD would make a whole lot of difference for cylinder walls and rings. However, when the man on the other side of the counter says "that'll be 3200.00 for your new injector pump" well that's a whole other issue. I've replaced several on Cummins powered pickups with relatively low mileage, engine far from worn out. (I certainly did not pay 3200.00 for my rebuilt pumps for the 6b, I'm guessing at what the cost would be for an 8.3 Cummins, new pump.)
I use bio all the time. It is only at 10 percent but it does clean out the system.
Had to change fuel filters twice after using BIO. And reman injector pump on 8.3 was 1500 bucks plus labor, also have replaced lift pump twice. Hard to say how much was due to ULSD, but injector pump failed at about 90K miles.
Gary B
My breakdown is;
1. cold fuel
2. Lubricity
3. bugs(aglea/fungus or whatever!)
-------------------------------
#2....Lubricants to me seem really important/even if I do not know what it totally means...( I want my engine to be lubricated.)
#3....I use Biorbor now since 1985/so 27 yrs. successfully.
NOTE: I have been a 'cruiser' using fuel from most everywhere on the East Coast of the U.S. and Gulf of Mexico and 5ooo miles of rivers from Moblile Alabama up to Kentucky and both big river of Tennessee. Also 7 years of crusing 3rd World Countries.
That said. Using 2 cycle Oil and the best oil, Dello 100 for break in/400 next and now Mobile 1 Synthetic...
-Double Magnets inline(not sure if anyone has gone there or wants to)..I'm happy!
-BiorBor (bug stuff)
I use a double Racor #500 filtering system I devised/to not only clean fuel as it was needed but to clean it when we sat at the dock(another issue)
I use a 2 micron filter as the FIRST one then have a back up of a 30 Micron filter if I ever have a problem and have to "Shut down" or shift FAST.
20 years now, my fuel from maybe 50 sources in 7 countries with probably 12 sources. have ONLY required me to change out a filter ONE time....and that has been a 2 micron filter!!
I am stating this because, "We" could not call Good Sams if we had a problem......we might die if things went bad.....
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