Great forum here. I am looking at a 1987 Grand Villa. This is my first foray into a motor home and I was impressed at the reviews on Foretravels. The owner of the 1987 I am looking at says it only has 46,000 miles on the odometer and 44,000 on a the wheel hub. I'm just having a hard time believing that a 35 year old vehicle has only 46,000 miles. Any thoughts? Any precautions? Thank you in advance. Skip.
Could well be actual mileage. Some folks use their MH's only on summer trips.
The wear on the coach should show if actual. I have not seen a wheel hub speedo on a FT and it may be that the wheel hub speedo was attached when a speedo went south.
Good luck, if price is right this could be a find.
Gary B
I agree with Gary. If it doesn't show a lot of wear, the miles might be correct. Does it have an analog Odometer or a digital LCD odometer. If it is an LCD, its a replacement. Lift the top of the dash and there should be a sticker on the back of the speedo with the mileage on the coach when it the speedo was replaced.
If I were considering buying it I would much rather it have 80 or 90 thousand miles. A coach that sits for long periods usually has more problems that one that is used regularly. I never worry about high miles on a top quality, diesel coach like a Foretravel. My question to the seller is how long has it been since it was on the road. Also, don't forget that tires may have great tread and be too old to be usable. Check the date code on the side of the tires. The coach batteries may need to be replaced at a cost of from $500 to $1500. Look for bulging sides on the batteries. These are just two of the most typical start up costs when you buy a little used older coach.
A 25 year Foretravel is still better than most 10 year old other brands.
As Kent has seen our '89 Grand Villa he can attest to how well these oldies were built. Our coach sat in storage for 9 years. It ended up with new tires, new refrig, new microwave, (1) new a/c, two new batteries @$180 ea, two new LCD TVs, new paint job, dash air that didn't work, cruise repaired, and a fuel sender unit that has quit.
All these fixes were done after coming out of storage. Since we bought the coach (with 63K miles on it we now have 74K and have replaced one faulty breaker (the one for the engine heater) and the rear inside valve stem extensions.
Everything else we have done is typical for almost anyone that wants certain conveniences and personalizes their coach.
Age is not as important as condition. Just be aware that there some things that need to be "exercised" periodically to keep them in shape--just like the human heart.
How many hours on the hour meter on the dash, that can also be an indication of how many miles are on the coach, and is it a diesel or gas coach, and if diesel which engine does it have?
Another question is to find out if it has a rear radiator or a side-mounted radiator. Rear radiators are hard to keep clean and make most routine maintenance difficult to do. IMHO.
seems like 35 - 40 miles per tach hour is in the range of what most of us have reported.
Some were parked and used without driving. I sold new 87's and it's 25 years old not 35 thankfully.
I can probably still do a phone walk through to this day.
Agree with Bob. Some owners are working and use their RV for local weekend trips with only a few major excursions. Lots of other reasons for low mileage. Don't think you have to worry about odo turnback like a car lot. See if you can find out how it was used. Lots of little tell tail signs that signal "hanger queen".
I bought a 84 SOB with only 27,000 miles that had spent 15 years sitting in one spot. The owner's wife died and he could not bring himself to take a trip with all the old memories. Could not part with it either so it sat and he spent all his time in a bar until he died. Was a bummer to listen to the story.
Pierce
Hi. I've been lurking for a bit and now have a question.
I too am looking at an '87 Grand Villa OREG. I doubt it's the same one the OP is looking as this one is closer to 90k miles. I know it's tough to wear out a truck chassis with a motorhome and the Foretravels are extremely well built. Be that as it may, should something require replacement how difficult is it to find parts for a Foretravel of this era?
I believe I'm aware of the problems with the gas pushers. Once we get our motorhome, I doubt we will be traveling much but we will be living in it while building a house although that may not even get started until next spring. There will be the occasional 200 - 300 mile trip to see the grandkid, but even that won't be driven more than a few times a year. As I see it, the big negative is most of this traveling will be done in the Southwest where speed limits are 70 on two lane highways and 75 on the interstate. It's not quite mountainous where I'll be traveling, but it's certainly hilly. I couldn't maintain those speeds in my Samurai or my Geo Metro. I don't feel safe when traffic is passing me at 20 MPH faster. This is a concern for me, but perhaps I'm worrying too much.
Thanks for the forum and all your contributions to it over the years. It's been quite informative.
All of my past experience has been with the Grand Villa chassis and a 93 diesel, but there has not been any part that I have not been able to get easily so I think most everything for the interior and Foretravel built body should be easy to acquire. I wish I could be of more help with the Oshkosh chassis but I have no experience there. I'll bet there will be some folks here on the Forum that can answer that part.
Restless, As long as you are aware of the pathetic performance of the Ford 460 and intend to use it only as living space this could be a deal. I would not pay more than 3500 to 4000 for it and maybe no that. Mileage will mean nothing on an OREG. . There is an 89 OREG here in Conyers that has been for sale for at least five years, guy wants 10 grand and he is nuts. It is rotting into the ground. Don't expect much in the way of performance with an OREG.
Good luck.
Gary B
Kent, thanks for that info.
Gary, thanks for the pathetic performance reminder. I've seen your posts on other threads talking about that.
I had a 25' 1985 Barth on a Chevy chassis. On flat land I had no complaints with that rig, even towing a 4000lb toad. In the hills and in the mountains it was truly pathetic however. I suspect it will be the same with this rig. If I could find something newer with a diesel in a similar price range...
I've been watching this coach on craigslist for several months. He started at $17k then just this week he dropped it from $12k to $10k He's getting serious about selling it I think. On the phone I believe I can hear the frustration in his voice. The motor has been rebuilt with a new cam and exhaust. It sounds like it's been used every every season but I'm not sure about the maintenance yet. It sounds like all the tires need replacing. I plan on looking at it tomorrow. We've been looking at coaches in the $10k - $25k price range for several months now and I haven't seen anything yet where it looks like the owners have regularly used and properly maintained their coach, not locally anyway.
My wife still has to look at it and if she doesn't give it the go ahead then it's a done deal before it gets started. Thank you for the info!
Restless, I would like to see everyone own a FT but in this case I would caution you to be very careful, these OREG's have a poor reputation and In my opinion this would be worth no where near 10 K. With all the work you will have to do the cost could be very high and given that you may not be able to use it while repairs are made it does not seem like a good deal to me.
I would think that a diesel of that vintage could be had for not much more than his 17K asking price.
Good luck
Gary B
I-70 has some long killer grades, especially in warm weather. Elevations are fairly high so you will have even less power without a turbo diesel. Could get down to 25 mph on some. Gary has a good feel for the price range @ $3-4K
I looked at an '89 with a Cat in it for $12K two years ago so the diesels are out there.
If you were a DIYer, a mechanical turbo Ford diesel should bolt up without too much work. I put one in a SOB and it worked great. The diesel got almost twice the MPG.
Pierce
Thank you. I'll have a better idea tomorrow night. If it's everything we want I'll have to keep that diesel idea in mind. I've had a few Powerstrokes, though later years than mechanical. It is a solid motor.
Yeah, I-70 northbound, south of Denver is rough. In my Geo Metro, I had to wind that thing out in 2nd gear for most of the grade. The roads I'll be on will be more like I-15 between Mesquite and Vegas and US93 in Central Nevada.
WOW! Thanks to everybody for your replies. Open my eyes! The one I am looking at is a gas engine. Thanks for giving me the right questions to ask. Skip
If you buy it, fit a pair of aluminum radiators and pusher/puller electric fans in addition to the original cooling system. The biggest enemy for this engine configuration is lack of adequate cooling.
If you don't move it you will love it. Had same coach, blew up motor, would still have it if it was diesel
Thank you Dave, for the tip on the fans and the radiators. I've read they do have cooling issues.
Thank you Tim, for the encouragement on the coach. This will be the first Foretravel I get to look at in person. I must admit I'm a bit excited.
Pierce, it looks like a reconditioned 6.9 IDI goes for around $2400. I see Banks makes a turbo for that motor for around $2700. Were I to get it, it wouldn't be my first modification, but it does look like a viable possibility for the future.
Restless
The 6.9 uses 7/16" head studs while the 7.3 uses 1/2". With a turbo, you need the 1/2" studs to be safe in my opinion.
I bought a damaged 7.3 F350 with a almost new Dealers Diesel and drove it home from MSP. Here is their site with all their engines and prices: Dealers Diesel Quality Remanufactured Diesel Engines (http://www.gdsdieselparts.com/dealers_diesel.htm) Still runs great!
You also have to get rid of the two disk clutch and go with the single plate unit. The two piece almost always needs a new flywheel so total cost for a clutch job is around $1000 in parts. $100 plus with the single disk clutch. Automatics don't need this advice but I have a Getrag manual.
Pierce
Pierce, I did not know that about the head bolts, thank you. If figured the 6.9 was the better choice because it was used by Ford with the C6 trans. It's something I'll need to do some research on. I don't know much about a swap like that.
I did have one of those dual discs clutches go out in a pickup with no warning -- it wouldn't disengage. I'm not a fan.
And thank you for the link.
This is difficult for me in a way as I am the one that contributed to the oreg problems. Ancient history. The first oreg prototype was in my hands and I loved driving it but...it had a loud noisy engine cooling fan. Cool except for the loud fan.
Hmmmm. Call lee pogue in Oshkosh and talk with him.. He stated that it was a pusher fan and a sucker fan was not readily available. All fans blades were that orientation.
Told him could sell the heck out of these of they were quiet.....
Fast, did not heat up. Nice piece. Noisy.
Lee called me back and said they had sourced a sucker fan and sent two engineers out to change and telemetry the coach. Seemed to work fine. Put it into production.
Problem was at high speeds the twin fan belt driven fan slipped. Motor heated up.
At 60 I had customers get 100k miles on these.
Find a pusher stock type ford fan and it will work fine. Trust me.
My fault. Should have left well enough alone. Sorry.
Bob
Laughing... Thanks, Bob. It's always good to have someone to blame :D
I thought all automotive fans were, uh... suckers. I thought they all pulled air in through the radiator. I'll see what I can find. Thank you.
edit: Oh, wait. Electric fans can be pushers.
Maybe I am backwards. The problem was the coach had a positive air pressure against the radiator at higher speeds if I remember correctly. Don't trust me. I was wrong 25 years ago. The way it's now is the wrong way as it turns out.
^ Gotcha. I should be able to tell more when I look at it tonight. Thanks.
I am not a diesel mechanic, so this may be not accurate. Most NA (non turbo) diesel engines are made to a different spec than the turbo diesel engines. It is not just a matter of bolting on a turbo and then you are even. I understand the bearings, rods, pistons, etc are different on many NA (naturally aspirated) diesels vs turbo diesels. What this does is put considerably more stress on the engines when you turbo them (which shortens their life). If you get a diesel upgrade and spend the money, time and effort in this pursuit, it seems that you would probably be happier with a diesel from the get go. I would either stay with the gas engine and live with its faults or look for another motorhome with the diesel that would make you smile from day one. The diesels are out there and believe you will find one for not much more than you are at with the cost of the one you are now viewing. Good luck either way
^ Thank you for the information. I really don't know about the specs of the motors. It is something I will have to research. I've heard you can blow up a motor with turbo boost, especially if the boost is cranked up and even more so on a motor with some wear on it. If we do buy this motorhome, it won't because I'm planning on a motor swap but it does seem like a neat idea. If I found a good deal on a motor after we get our place built, it might be kind of fun to do.
I've seen SOBs diesels within our price range but usually it's a coach with a less than stellar reputation for build quality. I haven't ruled that possibility out, but right now I'd like to get something that was built right, built to last, well maintained and won't nickle and dime us to death as it starts to fall apart from age. I'm not really buying it for travel, but it would be nice to have a diesel. I would like to travel more in future.
Financing is at the heart of the problem. Our credit union will loan on older rigs, but only to NADA's average retail value. We have some cash to put down on a rig but I don't want to do it. I want to save that money for our building project. The land is paid for and our goal is to not take out a loan against it. I'd rather finance a motorhome than owe on our land, if that makes any sense.
Charles,
You are quite correct as many do have different pistons, rods, etc. I can think of a couple that, with a small increase in HP, start to have a lot of head gasket issues. Others are very close to their turbo counterparts and re-manufacturers like Dealers Diesel install heavy duty parts to make them as reliable as the factory turbo units. The stock Fords diesels do come with spray nozzles to cool the hollow dome pistons. Another reason not to idle any diesel for any length of time as idle oil pressure, especially in a worn engine, may not be enough to keep the oil stream into the pistons strong enough to keep them cool and retain proper dimensions in warm weather.
When we installed turbos on the non-turbo Mercedes, we kept the boost pressure down to about 7 lbs compared to the factory 12 lbs. We never had any reliability issues in a single conversion. We would also add fuel through re-calibration of the injection pump, but not enough to smoke like a lot of chipped PUs you see on the road.
If you could find a deal on a $3K or so gas Foretravel and are good at DIY, it might be worth the effort but as you say, there are a lot of good, very reasonable diesel models on the market now.
Just read the last post. Difficulty in financing any older motorhome really keeps the price down. Yes, look for the deals and "cash is king" now and will be for a long time as I see it.
Pierce
Restless,
Not sure where you are in the US, as you did not list a location city in either your profile or signiture. But there are 3 older Grand Villas in Ft. Worth as of last Thur. One is a diesel, 93 on Craigslist with a Cat. that has been listed for at least 4 months.
Link: 36ft Foretravel Diesel pusher (http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/rvd/2997937378.html)
There are two that I think in my quick glance are maybe gas units. One might be a 34', the other 36'? Saw them at 65 mph from the highway. RV World, 5213 Airport Freeway Fort Worth, TX 76117
(817) 831-2526, might be worth a call. Units are sometimes consignment sales.
Plus 2 more Grand Villas on Craiglist, both under $20,000. All 1990 or newer.
Thank you, Dave (or Dolly). I'm in Western Montana. My apologies for the lack of signature and profile. I'm still in lurker mode, apparently. I have noticed Texas seems to be Foretravel central. I will investigate further, thank you very much for the leads.
It was absolutely pouring rain, but we looked at the rig this evening. It was meticulously kept. I do believe this owner is more detail oriented than I am. I found very little wrong with it.
Roof: Looked almost brand new. Seams recently sealed -- very neat job.
Exterior: Faded and cracked decals and surface rust on some of the screw heads.
Engine compartment and undercarriage: It's seeping oil at the valve cover gaskets and transmission pan -- no oil on the ground though. It looks like it might be due for new hoses/belts. Almost no rust -- looks like a desert rig underneath.
Interior: Every cabinet drawer and door works and opens and closes smoothly. The interior was very clean with very little wear. Even the window coverings were in good condition. There was just one place on the ceiling where the edge of the vinyl had come loose.
Test drive: Ample power -- really. I'm sure I'd have to gear down on any kind of real uphill grade, but I caught myself speeding in a 45 zone twice and it didn't have to work hard to get to and maintain 65 on the freeway (low rolling hills).
Overall I'd say it's in exceptional condition. I was impressed. I certainly didn't expect it to be this nice. It was used seasonly up to and including last year. He did his own maintenance and it appears he was quite meticulous. He was an engineer and restored classic cars on the side. The motor has an RV cam, newer carb and Banks exhaust. They claim around 7 MPG without a toad and 5 MPG or a little less towing a 7000lb boat. That mileage was after the engine work. They said it was worse before.
It does need new tires.
Questions:
Front end shake: On the test drive at highway speed when I'd hit a rough patch in the road, I'd feel a shimmy under the front end -- it would self correct almost immediately. It wouldn't jerk the steering wheel but it might change direction just a bit -- like the tires were catching a rut -- it'd do that too. It wasn't scary, but I didn't feel comfortable taking a hand off the steering wheel.
Brake pedal pressure: Is it normal to experience an occasion "push back" from the brake pedal? It wouldn't affect braking, but the pedal would push back against my foot pressure at times.
I really liked it and I think my wife loved it. It did not look at all like a 25 year old coach, not at all.
Bob, in all the excitement (and the rain) I forgot to look to see which way the fan rotated but it looked like a standard automotive fan.
Sounds like a good one. Coach has a backup electric power system for the power brakes. Low pressure somewhere in the system would cause the backup system to come on and kick the pedal. Ignition on motor not running I think you get the kickback if you hit the pedal hard. Wow amazing my brain still works. I was a product geek. Is the roof shiny or dull versus the sides?
^ Thanks for the info, Bob. Low pressure in the system then. Hmmm...
The roof appeared shiny compared to the sides, but it was pouring down rain so I cannot say for certain.
Dave (or Dolly), I did find those craigslist ads. Those rigs do look good from the pics. I especially like the one you linked. Interesting -- one guy thinks his engine is an, "Oskosk."
My 89 OREG (460 ford) was much more fatiguing to drive because of the "wander" - large dead spot in the center of the wheel, plus some of the "shake" you described. not dangerous, just a lot more "engaged" all the time while driving. You might want to get someone to look at the front end parts for wear, not very many parts available for these chassis, but may not be any issues, but good to know.
as I recall, ceiling was foam glued to roof and then vinyl glued to that foam. Mine came down totally, and I seem to recall gluing it back up. You can search the forum for discussions on the roof, many of which may date back to the "old" yahoo forum posts.
5-7 MPH is about right, so at $4.per gallon, figure .70 -.80 cents a mile just for gas.
tires are available, suggest retreads for rear (check casing dates) and nice new steer tires up front. you shouldn't be going fast enough or heavy enough in this rig to overheat the rears, and retreads will save you some $$. UPS runs them all the time, as do many other over the road companies. I sold and had good luck with the bandag process. get a tire quote before you make your buying decision.
check refrigerator operation (cooling coils rust out, if refrigerator is original, may need a new one at any time, or a cooling unit exchange, both a few $$). also check battery condition/age, those big house batteries also can make a dent in the savings account.
heat is the engine enemy of these rigs. have a good mechanic check belt condition and idler alignment on the belts. Always carry a spare belt, if you lose the belts, you will loose cooling, and power steering immediately, engine will overheat in a minute or two and must be stopped. good thing is you will know because your steering will get so hard. if you start eating belts, it is the idler out of alignment or gone bad
I blew up my 460 driving consistently above 65MPH. Plan on 55 - 60 MPH and not to be in a hurry. it is an old rig, underpowered, and heat can and will build up. Banks adds HP which adds more heat to the equation. If it is diesel - AWESOME! had I been more mechanically inclined when my motor blew up, I would have converted to a diesel myself and still have that coach 89 ORE), it was great!
good luck, take your time here, the coach isn't going to be snapped up in the next day out from under you, do your investigation.
you will love your vintage foretravel if you realize that it is old and a few things will break and need some $$ to fix. Good thing is, the quality is high, and these are a little simpler coach than the more current rigs. most of the manufacturers of the components are still around to support the rig, including FOT! Good Luck. Unless this is a $4-5K coach and one that you will not put a ton of miles on, you might consider a trip to TX and spending a few more $$ for a slightly newer diesel coach. let us know how this all turns out.
The shiny roof means it was replaced from the original. Which is good.
The steering box is a spicer and can have its "spool" recentered and the box remounted on the frame. 3 hour job for a truck shop. Normal for most older any brand chassis. Used the ask the customers if they could drive any deisel pusher from the bottom of the steering wheel? If not fix the box. Old coaches came with a chassis manual and the steering box service steps were in it.
Plus any tie rod end wear of course. Probably the ends. If it still darts and wanders then the box is not centered. Every brand needed the same service/adjustment. I had a lot of thank you's for that fix.
Bob
Thanks again, Bob. That's very good to know. They did have all the manuals that came with it. It wandered just a bit. It would catch ruts on occasion and it had the aforementioned shimmy after a road surface irregularity.
BigBailey, I seemed to have hijacked your thread. I apologize.
All the oshkoshes and gilligs had the 510 box
^ Thank you.
Just an update: We couldn't agree on a price so we did not get this coach. It was very well kept, however. I believe it would have been a good coach for us. Thank you all so much for all your help.
Restless, Keep looking one will turn up when you least expect it. I lusted after the 85 ORED I once had but there was no chance the owner was going to sell in my lifetime.... THEN... he caught his wife in a shall we say a compromising position. He thought it best to get rid of the FT quickly rather than letting her have it. Life is funny that way.
Gary B
Thank you for the encouragement.
FWIW,
You will find another. I missed one as it was very favorably priced (somebody scooped me on it) continued looking and found mine. I would have saved some money with the first, but frankly like the second one a lot. Hard to say more since I did not get the first one. I think I do though. There are some great deals out there in this economy. This may be one of the better times to buy one.
There are newer diesel Foretravels out there in your price range but you may have to make a couple of trips out of state to find the one you want. I made two trips from Dallas to Florida recently in my search. The first trip was to see a 1991 U300 40' with a 6V92TA that turned out to be in poor condition. I probably could have bought it very inexpensively but it looked like too much work so I went home empty handed that time. The second trip was to see a 1991 U300 36' with a 6V92TA that was in beautiful condition with low mileage so I bought it for $19,000 cash and drove it back to TX. I've had it for several weeks now and I've taken it to Stewart & Stevenson, the Detroit Diesel / Allison service center here in Dallas. They gave it a clean bill of health except for the airbags which need to be changed and a tiny pinhole leak in the radiator which leaks about a gallon every 1000 miles. I will get both of these things repaired as soon as my finances allow, but I can still use the coach in the meantime... So basically don't settle for a coach you don't really want because it's a buyers market out there.
Bars leak is your friend and approved by FT. Try that first.
Restless, take a look at this one 1995 Foretravel U240 36' Motorhomes of Texas (http://motorhomesoftexas.com/coachrv/foretravel/1995--u240--36--C1543). We saw it last week and it looked very good. It isn't the right coach for us, but it may fit you. Steward said it could be purchased for less than asking price. I know Nacogdoches is a long way from Montana, but it might be worth the trip, especially if you come back with a coach. Just be aware that your summer temperatures are what they consider a really cold winter.