The driver's side windshield had shifted on my coach so I contacted a local glass company to come and re-set the glass. During that process it was discovered that the bond between the front fiberglass shell below the windshield has come loose. This is where the front of the coach is bonded to what seems to be part of the dash right under the windshield. Looking through the front hatches you can clearly see that bond is broken all across the front of the coach. The glass experts said that was probably why the glass moved. I thought it may have been because of the somewhat rough roads I travel. Anyway, my question to all you experts out there is; has this been discussed before? If so, can you point me to the thread? If not, I was thinking about re-bonding it using West Marine Six10 adhesive. ( WEST SYSTEM Six10™ Thickened Epoxy Adhesive at West Marine (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=14969&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50218&subdeptNum=50219&classNum=50225#.UAsFopHAEtU)) The area is somewhat easily accessed via the front hatches. Doing it from the top would be much easier, but I cannot see how to remove the very front of the dash top without causing damage to it. Picture has a screwdriver pushed into the area
Any Ideas?
I don't know if it's been addressed but if it happens to our U225 I would use West epoxy and some mat or roving to rebond it. It would take some significant grinding and cleaning to get it prepped. I would leave enough extra so that I could secure the bond with fasteners (like some sailboat bulkheads are epoxied and then through-bolted).
Craig
Foretravel tells me I've got the same issue, pretty common, this is on a 96 U295, coach style. They were pretty adamant that the problem will get worse as time goes on if not addressed. Like you I had a windshield pop out, they reset it and urethaned it in really well, no more problems in the last year.
I chose not to have it done at that time as I'm addressing other issues first. Their glass tech did suggest that a lot of people with this problem install screw snaps through fiberglass and into plywood behind as a temporary fix - and to get some sun shade. I'm not too keen on doing this.
What is usually used to rebond this area is a high strength bonding putty common in fiberglass boat construction. This stuff is used to bond stringers to hull, would need to do a little research to come up with the exact name. Kent Speers probably knows what it is. Methisocrylate or some such. That's not to say that a gap filling epoxy putty wouldn't do the job. I'd think you'd need to clean out any dead adhesive prior to rebonding. It'll take a bunch of clamps or a way to apply distributed pressure to the joint for long enough to cure. Windshields need to come out first unless you're really brave. Obviously the fix needs to be really faired curve for windshields to work right so distributed clamping pressure will be required. Could be clamps with a 1x2 on the outside to spread force, could also apply pressure by wedging between a wall and the outside of coach.
Are these screw snaps?
Is there anything behind the joint that can accept a fastener? I'm wondering if you couldn't use a series of fasteners as clamps to hold the material while the high-strength bonding agent cures. Or bonding agent, fasteners, roving with epoxy over the entire join.
Craig
On the bus front coaches Foretravel takes the windshields out then cleans the old adhesive off then with a putty knife fill the area with some thick epoxy they mix up in a bucket then lots of clamps with wood blocks all around the windshield opening.
They let it sit overnight then reinstall the windshields.
I think about 12 hrs of labor.
Those be the ones.
Sounds just like what I was told except for the adhesive was called "bonding putty." Must be epoxy putty. 12 hours labor is not bad, really. I was told that in the rare event that a windshield should crack during this operation it's on me, not them. That threw me a little bit but imagine I will get them to do this next year.
My glass company charges $250 to R&r just one side and if the glass breaks it's on me!. They take about 30-40 minutes for two guys. I am going to try this fix myself and do it without removing the glass. I can get at it from the bottom and will use the snap screws as the clamping force. West Marine six10 has a 40 minute pot life so it should be very do-able. I may even lay up fiberglass over the joint after re-bonding. The only thing really in the way of that joint is the windshield washer tubing and that will be easy to get out of the way. Hardest part will be to clean up the joint first, but I have a plan.....
Thanks for all the suggestions, the snap screws were the key I was looking for!
Sounds like a good plan to me. $250 to r&r a single windshield, ouch! Seems like laying up some glass on the joint would be a good idea as you and Dez Rat have mentioned, maybe prevent future problems. I don't really see why the windshields need to come out as long as you draw it in evenly.
Not familiar with GV's so I'll ask if the glass is bonded to the framework there also. I believe the bond can be checked by tapping on the outside fiberglass and noting sound.
The glass as far as I know is set in a rubber gasket that allows it to float. I would not think that you would need to remove it EXCEPT for ease of access. When my WS's were replaced the glass guy and his helper used suction cups and physically moved the whole glass to get it centered and properly in the gasket. My heart stopped to watch them bump that glass and see it move as much as a quarter inch. Took two trips to get it perfect and it has stayed for two plus years.
Gary B
The glass actually "floats" free in it's opening. That is the problem because the coache's glass shell is really the only support. So if the has any movement (from this broken bond) the glass can move and flex way too much........... Prep work today and a trip to West Marine tomorrow morning should result in the job done tomorrow afternoon......
Yes there is a horizontal bulkhead to accept screws. I am pretty sure it's plywood. I like the snap screw idea because it will look like they are there to hold a windshield cover in place.......plus if I don't like them there, the holes will be very easy to fill.
In the past I was an Aircraft Tech/inspector and have a fair amount of experience with fiberglass repair work.......but that has been many years!
Good luck with it, and one small suggestion. If the snap screws don't have enough "pull" to draw the glass you might want to have some backup, larger diameter pan head sms. Use them to pull, then epoxy snaps into oversize holes after job is set.
Think that is pretty much standard in the industry on a remove and re-install.
Got'r done today. Really not that hard of a job and I did not remove the glass. I was able to pry it apart enough with a row of 3 screwdrivers to be able to get a 9" sanding disc on my grinder/polisher in between. Filling the area with the West six10 bonding epoxy was pretty easy and only took 1 1/2 tubes. Packaging said 42 minutes pot life at 70 degrees and they did not lie. Just finished when my timer hit 40 minutes. The hardest part was to figure out where to put the screws in for the clamping force because I did not know if I was going in to 1/2" or 3/4" material. I figured for 3/4" and each and every screw(I used 8 #8 x 1 1/4" screws) pulled tight! I used stainless finish washers with flat head wood screws. I may leave them because it does not look bad.
I decided that additional layup would not do that much good because of the surface was just not that good for good adhesion. The old bonding agent Foretravel used was a flexible fillet material. Not good stuff for the long run and there was actually no adhesive at the actual bond...... I completely see why it failed. Tomorrow after a full 24 hour cure, I am going to giv'r a good tugging. If anyone has a similar set-up, I do not recommend pulling straight out on the grab handles..... pulling down in shear would probably be OK.
Material and fuel to go get it $60 and labor total about 5 hours. Plus a bit of a sore neck from having to crank it around so much in a tight space. Not bad, but the future will tell much more.
Wow! When you decide to do it you just dive right in, doncha? :)
Thanks for the write-up. I suspect that all of us will be in for this at some point. And a *real* bonding agent is a plus. Epoxy products have come a long, long ways in 20 years or so.
Craig
How about a couple of photos so we can see exactly where the failure/repair was?
Excellent writeup!
Pierce
The very first post has a picture of the area. It was taken form inside the front access panel with the camera pointed straight up. It is about 3" below the windshield rubber and goes all they way across the front of the coach. I did not address around the side but it did not look like the bond has separated in that area, plus the frame around the side windows certainly adds some structural integrity there. I may take the dash side trim off and have a look from the top and just put the rest of the second tube in there. Was just to hot for that today and I really wanted to be done for the day.
The West bonding adhesive was really the right stuff. It is thickened and did not run or sag so every bit I pumped into the joint stayed right where needed. I am sure Foretravel's repair is much much better, but anything was better than the way it was. I will be going out prospecting again next weekend and driving over about 6 miles of unimproved back roads, that should be the real test!
I have used several of the West system products. None have ever given me a bad result.
Does this separation problem seem limited to Grand Villa coaches? Do the bus front coaches have the same problem?
Yepper. My windshield shifted when I dropped pax wheel off a steep shoulder at speed. Foretravel diagnosed cap separation, not common but does happen. Now that I have more experience driving, and have cured the wandering problem that was a real contributor to the event I'm going to get it fixed. El Dorado's straightforward technique has me thinking I may shamelessly copy his technique. I wouldn't use screws, would apply clamping pressure from outside...2x4 blocks wedged between coach and building. But would dry run first to see how it works.
El Dorado, nice job gettin her done.
The repair after a good 24 hour cure is rock solid! I also took off the very side dash trim in the cab to further inspect that part of the joint. As I suspected it is still bonded. A bit of black spray paint and it should be as good as new. Picture is about 6" worth of the completed repair. The orange is the original glass after a bit of grinding and looks nice and smooth due to the new epoxy coating it.
I believe anyone that is reasonably handy and can twist your neck pretty good can do this and save booookooo $$$$.
If the outside finish of our coach was any better than the 1/8" of oxidized gel coat I would not have used screws either. But, the holes would be very easy to fill if I changed my mind. We do not mind the rough finish because most of the use is in the back woods and it allowed us to buy this fantactic Foretravel pretty cheap.
I think another way to use clamping force would be to put a 2X4 across each hatch (horizontally) and use bailing wire to pull it toward a steel member in the compartment, then do some serious twisting of the wire to really pull it together........ Mind you, the West Six10 is also a gap filling adhesive, so if it is not 100% clamped real tight I don't think it would matter. But the tighter the better
Just a little tid bit that I did years ago when bonding the roof of a camper van (fibreglass roof extension glued to the metal gutter trim). I mixed up the thicker fibreglass resin with the hardener as usual then quickly forced it into a old caulking tube with the nozzle cut way back and actually pumped it into the joint I was filling. I made a slow curing mix so I had a bit of time but it worked great for getting it into the joint without any mess. I threw that one away and used another for the next seam.
John h
I've done that with thickened resin also. You can get unused empty caulking tubes. Amazon has them (but probably available cheaper.)
Amazon.com: FILLABLE CAULKING TUBE, 2 per pack: Sports & Outdoors (http://www.amazon.com/FILLABLE-CAULKING-TUBE-2-pack/dp/B000225P9C)
FWIW when I need fiberglass resin I get the stuff from US composites. They have various thicknesses of resin for different purpose. I get the thickest and quickest setting, although if you add less hardener it sets a bit slower. I also use their epoxy thickener, kinda real fluffy stuff that you add to the resin before using the hardener. With this "fluffy stuff" (cabosil and aerosil) you can make the epoxy as thick as putty. I have thickened the stuff such that it does not "run" on a vertical surface. Neat stuff.
Roland
OK....
The new bonding is still very tight and shows no sign of movement. I took it out this morning and did the angle up approach to a steep driveway. The glass still moves way to much, but still, only the driver side moves. I called James at FT and he suggested I check the rear floor to frame bolts. Took the torque wrench and only found one loose, certainly not enough to allow the whole coach to overly twist. Any other ideas? James said my best bet is to bring it to them..... Hmmm, that is a 4000 mile round trip, 2000 of them worrying about the front glass popping out. I live in N. Calif and would prefer not to do that. I do have another call into James
Any-other Ideas?
Steve,
Can you better describe the "rear floor to frame bolts" he had you check?
Guess I am having trouble connecting windshield movement with something 30' behind it.
Brett
I did not get it either, but all but one was tight so I dont think that was the issue. Here are pics of what he suggested. On the second call to him, he said that if I was absolutly sure the dash bulkhead and front cap joint was no longer flexing then it must be a sealant/adhesive issue around the glass. Mine has none and my glass company said there should be none.... Anyway James said not only do they set the glass to rubber in with a Vulkem product, they also use it for the rubber to fiberglass cap. Again, mine had none.... he wanted me to bring it to him, but that is a 4000 mile round trip!
I ran foretravel stores back then and I sold and have driven numerous u225 and u240's and I used to take unihomes and put the right front tire on a tall curb and have the customer get out and see empty air under the left front tire and the entry door still opened.
Answered all their questions about how strong it was. Their trade in would not do that so what could they say.
Let james look at it. The windshields do move. I used to off road these and I have twisted the enough to pop the glass out of the molding at a corner more than once. I twisted my u320's right windshield out last trip. Chassis main air valve stuck open occasionally coach if down for leveling would not air up. Tire rubs the floor in the front on a 97 and a short drive in an uneven area twisted the coach. Especially twist in an off camber driveway. And it's 20 years old.
Another old motorhome memory. The torsilastic " rubber baby bumpers " as my sales man roger Tischendorf used to call them get harder from ozone as they get older. And lose suspension compliance. The coach gets stiffer corner to corner especially. The eagle bus boys mentioned this fact many times. They sag and get hard. New was impressive. But needs maintenance.
Bob,
There's a difference between strength and deflection. Most modern day structures are designed to some deflection standard. In vehicle design you want some modicum of stiffness to ensure axle alignment. Check out STURAA bus testing standards. One of the tests is to jack up diagonal wheels to check for stiffness. It's gotta be both strong and stiff. Stiffness rules in chassis design.
David
Good info. I can't remember if the 240's twisted more than the 280's. They may have. Shorter bottom compartment divider walls may not resist torsional twisting as well a the bigger coaches. I do remember some difference. Have to ask my foretravel mechanic about this.
It works. They reset my drivers side windshield which had popped out, carefully bedding both glass and gasket in urethane. I've had no problems with it and this is with a separated front cap. I'd sure give that a try.
Chuck, we are going to reset the window and use urethane as suggested. Sure would hate to think about having to change out the rubber in the "rubber springs". It is really comforting to hear from someone that has the same issue and it was resolved so simply.
Dee (wife) says drive to to Texas if needed. In the short time we have had it we both have fallen in love with this home. It is our first motorhome and we moved up to it from many many years of using a pop-up. Our pop ups have been shredded 3 times by bears, hence the big change. With that change we discovered the joy of camping in a home vs. a tent. We will make it work!
El_Dorado wrote:
"Our pop ups have been shredded 3 times by bears, hence the big change. With that change we discovered the joy of camping in a home vs. a tent. We will make it work!"
Hilarious!!!
John
El Dorado,
When FT sets new glass the coach has to sit on a flat surface for a min of 24 hours. No leveling jacks and no driving. As far as the urethane, I'd look for the right stuff for glass for sure. I have heard a time or two that so and so had their windshield urethaned in, made it crack don't know veracity. I do know it's SOP for lots of coaches with this common problem.
Less stiff ride was the results of changing the torsilastic as I remember. Ozone hardens it. Ask Triana
Urethane should be fine as long as you don't make it too thick. It needs to expand and contract to accommodate the naturela movement of the chassis. Make sure you get good instructions on how to apply the urethane.
As far as the bond of the body to the dash area, failure in the Grand Villa is very common. On the U225, the chrome handles above the access panels were added to add a mechanical bond between the skin and the dash bolster. This is the first time I have heard of the separation causing problems with the windshield glass however, but I guess it is possible. Usually there is just a "Wind Storm" coming up between the dash and the front cap. It makes wind noise and lets dirt in through the opening.
The guys at FOT that were working in the plant in the 90's and both James and Rance at Xtreme are familiar with this problem and have fixed many coaches, including mine. It sounds like you have affected the necessary fiberglass repairs and my guess is that when the windshield is properly seated you won't have anymore problems. If you do have any more problems I suggest taking the coach to NAC for a final resolution.
I am assuming (bad word) that the photos I have attached are a result of the windshield shifting as a result of the bonding failure(?). I had intended to replace the windshield in our GV in the future because of the fogging along the edges. Well it looks like the future has arrived. Have an appointment in Meccadoches to replace the windshields, gaskets and repair the bonding issue.
Roland
As a follow-up on a do-it yourself fix for the separation and moving front glass. It has been over 4 months and 2500 miles since the fix. At first, there was a bit of groaning from the coach as it flexed but no movement of the glass. On an Idaho trip, we really flexed the coach getting off a road to a shoulder. I thought for sure that would move the glass, but it was rock solid. Front horizontal bulkhead is still attached solid, glass and rubber gasket were set using urethane generously. All in all it was an easy fix and I would say at this point a permanent repair. We are so glad, because just to enter or leave our driveway, makes the coach want to flex and Mrs. El Dorado was so worried that the driveway may require getting rid of the Foretravel if it could not go in and out without the front windshield moving so much that it left a gap between the glass and rubber. The urethane used was the kind that did not require a primer and it was used straight out of the tube. I forget the brand.......
Good luck on your glass change-out and I am sure you are in much better hands than mine
Roland, you sure have had a bad string of luck. I have had two Grand Villas and have only seen that windshield thing occur once. I backed the drivers rear wheels of into a ditch. The glass separated like that but an auto glass guy came out and pushed it back in place and it has never done it again. If you didn't stress the chassis then you may have a real problem but if you did stress it, the window separation is pretty common and no big deal. My windshield repair was $50.
Sure wish you better luck in the future.
Roland,
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the windshield issue springs from that major bulkhead issue you experienced. Even if there is a FG bonding failure, the loss of basement integrity might have been first cause. Just a WAG from a bulkhead junkie... :headwall: :headwall: :headwall: :headwall:
Don
We used 3M 8690 on all the new MBZs we shipped to the U.S. The Germans wanted the windshield to pop out in an accident and the U.S. wanted it to stay put so part of the federalization was to apply this stuff between the windshield and the rubber. I understand a lot of tubes of 8690 have been arriving dried up lately. Good reviews for a competing brand CRL/Somaca Hi-Viscosity Auto Glass Urethane Adhesive - 10.1 Fl. Oz. Cartridge - (http://www.amazon.com/Somaca-Hi-Viscosity-Glass-Urethane-Adhesive/dp/B001G0R1N2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_auto_1) that is half the price. They all meet FMVSS 212 and 208.
Make sure it wear gloves as once you get it on your hands or any part of the car, it's hard to get off and if it gets on any carpet/fabric, it's there to stay. All the tubes we bought were black. Goes on with a typical caulk gun. Check specs as some stay more flexible than others while others cure to a more rigid state.
Some people have used the firmer cure to repair engine/rubber mounts.
Pierce
Kent
Not bad luck, poor planning, could have avoided all this with a good inspection by someone that knew Foretravels. Shoulda got on the Forum BEFORE we purchased. Still have a roof issue that I will have to deal with in the future, it doesn't look pretty now but it doesn't leak so it's all good.
Don
The windshield was fogged up on the edges when we bought the rig. That says that there was some delamination going on there. The bulkhead failure probably did not help much. I can't remember "shocking" the coach enough to cause this problem. I checked your bonding failure post then took a look at my coach and could see that there is an issue there. Figured it would be just as well to have Meccadoches replace the windshield and deal with everything else at the same time. Not rushing there, appointment is in early March, we have places to go and things to see. Long as everything hangs together we will be OK. Just keeping a close eye on things if it gets to "badder" guess I'll have to use some kinda band-aid.
Roland
If you still have the separation at the edge of the windshield, they fixed ours by backing a pickup close to the front end and standing on the tailgate. The repairman then started pushing on the glass, by hand, and nudging the glass back in place a little at a time. He used a little hook tool like a screw driver to manipulate the rubber seal and make sure it didn't fold under as the windshield re-seated itself. He also said he sometimes used a spray bottle of water to lubricate the rubber and in colder weather used a heat gun to warm up and soften the rubber seal before trying to push the glass back in place. It didn't appear that it took a lot of skill, just patience. He also mentioned if you push too hard you could crack the windshield so take it slow and easy.
Ours was the lower corner on the passenger side so if yours is the upper corner the pickup bed may not be high enough. He said trying to apply the required pressure from a ladder is very difficult. Some sort of scaffold may be needed. He wasn't a very big or young guy so it is more persistence than strength.
Our windshield still moves slightly when the chassis is torqued, I turn the coach around in the yard before I park it, but it never has popped out again.