Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Discussions => Topic started by: Tony Pasquale on August 04, 2012, 07:40:46 pm
Title: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 04, 2012, 07:40:46 pm
Tried to start the coach today, turned key, waited, then turned to start and nothing not even a click. Engaged boost with geny running still nothing. Tried going to rear and nothing when using rear start button. Checked and cleaned batteries terminals all 3 read 12.79 Volts. I ran geny for about 8 hours today with boost on still nothing when key turned! I checked under the coach and through bedroom and could not see any loose wires. Coach has been turning over and starting without hesitation had out last week for some modification in the rear plus took on some fuel no problem with starting.
Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: gam on August 04, 2012, 07:53:21 pm
Is the trans in neutral? It sounds to me like a starter solenoid or trans neutral switch or there wiring . Gam
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Peter & Beth on August 04, 2012, 08:03:58 pm
If you're getting a proper warm-up cycle with the ignition in the 1st position, the ignition solenoid is doing its thing. If you get nothing when engaging the starter, then I would check the start solenoid circuit first (assuming the batteries & grounds are fine).
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: John S on August 04, 2012, 08:23:23 pm
tony give me a call
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: John S on August 04, 2012, 08:25:43 pm
TOny it is either your ignition relay do you hear a click up front or your starter solenoid that you can jump to start the coach with a heavy gauge wire on the start solenoid
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 04, 2012, 08:26:34 pm
Gam, I had spoken to my mechanic and he mentioned the trans in "N" and I did have it in neutral, so then I even tried placing into Rev then back to N then into Drive back to N but still had nothing.
Peter, I checked the voltage and then cleaned the cable connections and terminals of the batteries they read 12.79. I am not sure to check if the ground is fine, where do I look to determine if my ground is okay?
My mechanic did mention a possible circuit problem also, I am not to good at handling electrical systems, as a matter of fact challenged with many systems on these coaches but I am willing to give a try, so I was hoping someone here my direct me to a place to check.
Also I was going to check with Coach Net tomorrow maybe they can send someone over who might be able to trace down this problem....!?
Thank you both, Gam and Peter for you replies.
Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Michelle on August 04, 2012, 08:44:26 pm
Something to try before calling CoachNet - thump the starter with a rubber mallet (aka The Katsuki Percussive Adjustment Maneuver).
It might not be the issue in this case, but we had the exact same symptoms once a few years ago after the coach had sat for a month in a damp climate. Nothing with the key or the remote start. Steve called James Triana and thumping was his suggestion to try first. Worked like a champ and haven't had any further issues.
Michelle
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 04, 2012, 08:45:40 pm
Just spoke to John S and he advised I try jumping the starter solenoid, same procedure mentioned by mechanic, only wasn't sure how, but John suggested I use a heavy duty insulated cable. I will give it a try in the morning I am hopeful that works!
Michelle tried the thump method today to no avail, but I used a small metal hammer and I do have a rubber mallet maybe I will retry using that this time before trying to jump the solenoid! Soounds like a lot easier fix if it works!!!
Thank you.
Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Peter & Beth on August 04, 2012, 08:45:58 pm
Tony, You did not confirm that the start warm up cycle is working properly, then the Starter cycle is just not working. On the wall below the bed there should be a solenoid to inspect check for proper function. Also check the solenoid by the isolator. You can jump the starter solenoid to determine that the starter is functioning properly. Peter
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: John S on August 04, 2012, 08:48:48 pm
Peter, I just spoke to Tony on the phone and told him to try jump starting the solenoid.
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Peter & Beth on August 04, 2012, 08:53:24 pm
Peter, I just spoke to Tony on the phone and told him to try jump starting the solenoid.
Great! Another possible test might be to clean and lubricate the terminals at the starter. And, if these terminals look like they needed cleaning, then while you're at it, clean and lube the alternator terminals as well as the battery isolator terminals along with the start and boost solenoids. These should be performed annually. Peter
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 04, 2012, 08:56:23 pm
Peter and John will give it a shot first or a "Thump!" per Michelle's suggestion, then if nothing try the solenoid jump....! :o
Thank you all for the suggestions, will let you know.
Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tim Fiedler on August 04, 2012, 09:02:40 pm
Also check all connections on batteries
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 04, 2012, 09:05:09 pm
Peter,
If what I was looking at today is in fact the Starter solenoid the connections did seem to need some cleaning, so I will take care of them.
One question though from someone who is learning when you mention "lubricate" what do you recommend? Can I get at Advance Auto, Home Depot or Lowes, which are all nearby me?
Hi Tim, I did clean battery terminals but again did not have a "Lubricant" any suggestions?
Thanks, Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Peter & Beth on August 04, 2012, 09:11:05 pm
Tony, I clean & lubricate the terminals with an spray electronics cleaner and wipe clean and steel wool or fine sand if needed. Then I use dielectric grease to lube (prevents corrosion). You can buy these items at most at Advance, NAPA type stores. Then again, I am a fanatic about keeping electrical terminals clean especially if these come in contact with the road spray elements. Peter
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Twig on August 04, 2012, 09:13:41 pm
I would suspect the ignition switch.
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 04, 2012, 09:17:37 pm
Peter,
Gotcha will stop at Advance auto tomorrow on the way to the coach and buy some dielectric grease.
Twig,
Will probably need mechanic to check the ignition switch if solenoid Thumping and Jumping fails.
Thanks, Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Bill Willett on August 04, 2012, 09:24:49 pm
Tony,if you are going to clean the wires on the starter, please disconnect the ground cable on the start batteries.
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 04, 2012, 09:28:52 pm
Bill,
Noted Thank you,
Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: wolfe10 on August 04, 2012, 09:37:58 pm
Let's start with some diagnostics:
Did the transmission shift pad show "N" as it normally does?
Did the other items that normally only work with the ignition on work-- things like gauges, dash HVAC fan, etc?
Of NO to both the above, either a problem with the IGNITION (not start) solenoid and/or ignition switch/wiring between the two.
Let us know and we can give you easy diagnostic steps if you have a voltmeter.
Brett
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 04, 2012, 09:43:00 pm
Hello Brett,
Yes the shift pad read "N" and all the normal dash gauges, lights, HVAC worked when ignition key turned on.
I have a digital multimeter.
Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Twig on August 04, 2012, 09:45:49 pm
You are doing a lot of work but I see 2 possibilities. Either the tranny n position is not being recognized or ....in the ignition switch is an actuator pin. When you turn the key on, all the lights and stuff light up, but if the pin is broken, it will do nothing in the start position. Here's a shocker! It is a PLASTIC housing. Very easy to replace, though. I did one in 15 minutes. Thumping is not going to work but jumping the starter will imho.
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 04, 2012, 10:00:10 pm
Hi Twig,
What is the procedure to remove ignition switch and if removed would I be able to see if there is a broken pin?
Thanks, Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Don Hay on August 04, 2012, 10:58:23 pm
Tony,
Ignition swtiches are not expensive; challenge is getting the old one out. You have turn the key COUNTERCLOCKWISE to line up the tiny hole in the key socket with the release peg inside the switch; then insert the end of a paper clip in the hole, push in on the paper clip and pull out on the key. The key hole /switch will come out easily. Replacing Foretravel Ignition Switch (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/replacing_foretravel_ignition_switch.html)
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: John S on August 04, 2012, 11:10:40 pm
there is a utube video showing it on a foretravel I remember seeing.
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: John S on August 04, 2012, 11:13:54 pm
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Barry & Cindy on August 05, 2012, 12:00:31 am
This posting explains the circuits that control our starter. There is a lot of good info on this posting that will answer your question. Start failure-no crank-fixed it. (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=15639.msg96267#msg96267)
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 05, 2012, 09:21:59 am
Hi Barry,
Thank you, I visited the other thread and I will print out you're wiring posts. Can I try jumping the starter solenoid next to the isolater or only jump solenoid located on the starter?
Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 05, 2012, 09:25:44 am
there is a utube video showing it on a foretravel I remember seeing.
Thanks John for the video, seems like a simple procedure. Do you know who makes our ignitions and how to purchase if needed?
Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Gayland Baasch on August 05, 2012, 10:11:34 am
It would seem that since it won't start with the rear start button either it's not the ignition switch.
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Twig on August 05, 2012, 10:21:18 am
I apologize. I re-read your original post and it does not start from the rear so that would eliminate the ignition switch actuator. Both the rear start and ignition switche run through the start solenoid in the dash, however. I have a '94 (eat your heart out Kent) but let me do some research and see what I can come up with.
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Chuck Pearson on August 05, 2012, 10:26:01 am
There's a high potential for shock(mental) and awe in doing this. Be careful.....fire will fly. Better yet, don't do it. Sounds like your problem is in an interlock or, most likely, the upstream solenoid.
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Twig on August 05, 2012, 10:39:05 am
Ok. I find an auxillary start solenoid. Mine is located next to the boost solenoid. This may be the culprit. Both remote and ignition go through this. So.........on one side should be always 12v. The other side will only be 12v when the start position is hit. I hope this solves your problem. You can jump a wire from always hot to the other side to see if you get a hit on the starter. If so, it is the solenoid. If not it is either the neutral switch or something beyond the scope of my pea brain.
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: John S on August 05, 2012, 10:54:59 am
Chuck, you are right about the shock potential and it heats up a bunch too. Had to do it to get the coach moving once.
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on August 05, 2012, 11:09:47 am
Don't let them bullwinkle you, jumping across the starter & start solenoid mounted on starter, is no more difficult than checking your oil, you just need to get under (on my coach) and find the starter, I would use a screwdriver, jump from the heavy cable terminal to the small terminal on solenoid, Bingo, it is running if you have the key in the run position. Yes there will be a few sparks, not lethal, if your familiar to this, enough said, if not, it might be best to call a mechanic. Dave M
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 05, 2012, 11:10:50 am
Hi All,
Let me see if I am understanding everyone properly on the procedure
First I try jumping the start solenoid next to the isolater and if I get a hit on the starter, if I do then I replace this solenoid and afterwards engine should start.
If not then jump the starter solenoid to get started and be able to take to mechanic for starter replacement
Tony
[/list]
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 05, 2012, 11:26:07 am
Don't let them bullwinkle you, jumping across the starter & start solenoid mounted on starter, is no more difficult than checking your oil, you just need to get under (on my coach) and find the starter, I would use a screwdriver, jump from the heavy cable terminal to the small terminal on solenoid, Bingo, it is running if you have the key in the run position. Yes there will be a few sparks, not lethal, if your familiar to this, enough said, if not, it might be best to call a mechanic. Dave M
Thanks Chuck, Dave, going over to storage yard now and let all know results later.
Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: John S on August 05, 2012, 11:46:14 am
Yes you get a spark but you can do it, I agree with Dave M.
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: wolfe10 on August 05, 2012, 11:56:12 am
Danger/difficulty of jumping a solenoid depends on WHAT you are jumping.
If jumping from the "always hot" large lug to the signal terminal (disconnect signal wire) you are only talking about ONE amp. This works fine IF the problem is that you have a problem "up-hill" of the solenoid.
If jumping from large terminal to large terminal you are talking about a LOT of amps-- up to the full rating of the solenoid. If the solenoid is bad, and tapping on it doesn't cause it to "wake up" this is what you will be jumping.
A small jumper wire can be used to jump to the signal terminal.
Battery cables would be needed to jump the large lugs, or MUCH safer, mark and remove the wires from the "non-hot" large lug and holding the insulation, touch them/attach them (if it is a solenoid that you want to bypass for a longer period of time) to the "hot" large lug. All you have done is bypass the solenoid-- would be the same to all devices "down-stream" as if the signal wire and solenoid are working as they should. Clearly, you need to determine if the solenoid you are bypassing should be hot only while cranking, or hot all the time the engine is on.
Brett
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Dave Head on August 05, 2012, 12:05:27 pm
I will never forget the look on one of our electricians face - he failed to check the other side of a bulkhead when mounting a battle lantern bracket. He drilled into a 4160 volt emergency power cable... Vaporized the drill bit.
Use a decent sized screwdriver. Goggles would be a plus along with sunglasses
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Barry & Cindy on August 05, 2012, 01:15:09 pm
Tony, RE: Can I try jumping the starter solenoid next to the isolator or only jump solenoid located on the starter?
First thing I would do, with ignition key off, is to put 12-volts to the small control terminal on the start-solenoid mounted near the isolator. This will close the start solenoid which will send power to the control terminal on the starter-mounted solenoid, which lets very high current to flow from start battery bank to starter motor. (12 volt source is available on isolator side terminal)
If this works, is does not indicate what the problem is, it just tells you all is well with your starter, Foretravel start solenoid, start battery bank and heavy battery cables. This is a simple and important test which tells you if the problem is in the low-current up front section or in the heavy current back section.
From my engine start wiring flow write-up you will find that there is a relay on the front panel that sends voltage to the isolator-panel start solenoid when Allison is in neutral and ignition key is in start position. A meter on the relay wires will indicate if Allison is sending its neutral voltage and if ignition key is sending its start position voltage.
Let us know if you need help following the write-up.
Looks like with this one problem you have learned about electrical circuits on your Foretravel which can keep you from being towed. Enjoy the journey.
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Chuck Pearson on August 05, 2012, 06:16:42 pm
Tony, RE: Can I try jumping the starter solenoid next to the isolator or only jump solenoid located on the starter?
First thing I would do, with ignition key off, is to put 12-volts to the small control terminal on the start-solenoid mounted near the isolator. This will close the start solenoid which will send power to the control terminal on the starter-mounted solenoid, which lets very high current to flow from start battery bank to starter motor. (12 volt source is available on isolator side terminal)
If this works, is does not indicate what the problem is, it just tells you all is well with your starter, Foretravel start solenoid, start battery bank and heavy battery cables. This is a simple and important test which tells you if the problem is in the low-current up front section or in the heavy current back section.
From my engine start wiring flow write-up you will find that there is a relay on the front panel that sends voltage to the isolator-panel start solenoid when Allison is in neutral and ignition key is in start position. A meter on the relay wires will indicate if Allison is sending its neutral voltage and if ignition key is sending its start position voltage.
Let us know if you need help following the write-up.
Looks like with this one problem you have learned about electrical circuits on your Foretravel which can keep you from being towed. Enjoy the journey.
^.^d
Starters rarely just quit working, they usually exhibit some symptoms first like dragging, abnormally slow cranking, skipping. If the starter itself has given up the ghost you should still hear the solenoid engaging when you hit the key. If you don't hear this, chances are you've got a problem upstream. If the solenoid on the starter is out (you can hear it engage but it's not cranking which means the coil is ok), you can usually change out the heavy copper contacts in the solenoid, an easy and cheap fix rather than replacing the whole starter assembly.
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 05, 2012, 07:15:19 pm
Hi All,
I went and purchased a 4 gauge x 24" cable at Advance Auto to jump the starter as was mentioned here and by John on the telephone. Once I found the proper connections on the starter solenoid and had someone working the remote start switch the engine came alive on the second crank and I drove directly to the truck mechanics shop in Baltimore. Once there I shut down and prepared to leave the coach which took about 1/2 an hour, so before I left the coach I tried starting it again using the ignition key and it started right up! Now with the recent high Dew points here in the Baltimore area plus the scorching heat and enormous humidity it could have been a condensation problem, along with dirty contacts, anyway, the mechanic Mike will check out. I was bringing the coach to them anyway as they were going to install the 4 new Continentals HSR 2 Eco Plus tires I had ordered plus check a few other items on my punch list.
You are correct this has increased my level of understanding quite a bit but I still for some reason struggle with a clear understanding of electrical systems! I am not sure why as I usually can grasp most workings of RV systems and other things I do not use on a day to day basis, well at least fundamentally, in a short time but when it comes to understanding the workings of electrical systems I just cannot visualize how they work and is always a big dark blank in my mind! ???
I will try harder at understanding especially at trying to follow Barry's flow write up and apply his step by step instructions as soon as we see what the mechanic determines the problem is after his inspection.
I want to again thank everyone for their postings and diagnostic instructions, this forum is such a wonderful resource to be a part of, a genuine testimony to all the wonderful forum members who reside here and do not hesitate to lend their support! ^.^d
Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 05, 2012, 07:28:19 pm
"Starters rarely just quit working, they usually exhibit some symptoms first like dragging, abnormally slow cranking, skipping......"
Chuck,
I agree but as I had mentioned previously I was surprised it did not start the other night because even though I store this coach in a nonelectrical storage area I have been very diligent in exercising the generator, making sure the batteries have a charge, plus each and everytime I have started the engine it has been real strong cranking without hesitation and starting on second or third turn.
I have the engine serviced regularly so I think it might be some dirty connections and some other failed system as you say upstream. It is certainly beyond my electrical comprehension so we will see what the mechanic finds and I will post the results.
Thank you Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Raymond Jordan on August 05, 2012, 08:01:46 pm
Hi Tony, What load range are the new tires? What was the pricing on the tires? Did they give you any $$$ for your take offs? Is McCarthy a Continental dealer? Thanks, Raymond
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 05, 2012, 10:45:56 pm
Hi Ray,
The Continentals are LR H and I got them from local automobile Ford dealer during the Ford big tire sale in May, paid little over $500 each, no install fee. The local dealer could not install these tires so Ford shipped to McCarthy who will do the installation at $30.00 a tire don't know if they will give $$$ for take offs.
McCarthy is a Continental Tire dealer but couldn't match Ford's price.
Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Chuck Pearson on August 06, 2012, 06:59:15 am
Good deal, you saved yourself a service call or tow.
It is certainly beyond my electrical comprehension so we will see what the mechanic finds and I will post the results.
You don't really think the coach is going to pull this trick with the mechanic around do you? Ha! Like you say the problem is most likely a dirty/corroded/loose contact somewhere in the low amperage control part of the system.
There's nothing simple about the wiring on a motorhome. We are fortunate in that Foretravel does a nice neat job of running, sizing, organizing and labeling wires. A house only has to run on mains power. This house has to have all the wiring of a house, and a car, possibly a trailer, has to run on four different electrical systems, chassis battery, house batteries, generator, shore power at a minimum, and has the capability of generating and creating 120 volt power from batteries thru inverter, life support like propane detectors, brakelights.... I am constantly amazed at the ingenuity and durability of the system as a whole.
About the only way to fix this stuff is to isolate and focus on the individual system. We're fortunate in that there are some folks, several who posted answers, who have made a study of these systems and I've yet to see an electrical problem they couldn't identify,isolate, simplify and diagnose. Most have found that unless you're going to the factory for service that it's best to put the effort into learning the basics as the only thing more frustrating than endlessly searching for the problem youself is paying someone 100/hr to do the same. (No knock on your mechanic here, but out on the road it's definitely the luck of the draw finding someone capable.) There are some good "12 volt bibles" that can help a lot in comprehending.
Good going, you got her cranked that's the important thing.
Chuck
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Tony Pasquale on August 07, 2012, 06:46:14 am
Good deal, you saved yourself a service call or tow.
You don't really think the coach is going to pull this trick with the mechanic around do you? Ha! Like you say the problem is most likely a dirty/corroded/loose contact somewhere in the low amperage control part of the system.
There's nothing simple about the wiring on a motorhome. We are fortunate in that Foretravel does a nice neat job of running, sizing, organizing and labeling wires. A house only has to run on mains power. This house has to have all the wiring of a house, and a car, possibly a trailer, has to run on four different electrical systems, chassis battery, house batteries, generator, shore power at a minimum, and has the capability of generating and creating 120 volt power from batteries thru inverter, life support like propane detectors, brakelights.... I am constantly amazed at the ingenuity and durability of the system as a whole.
About the only way to fix this stuff is to isolate and focus on the individual system. We're fortunate in that there are some folks, several who posted answers, who have made a study of these systems and I've yet to see an electrical problem they couldn't identify,isolate, simplify and diagnose. Most have found that unless you're going to the factory for service that it's best to put the effort into learning the basics as the only thing more frustrating than endlessly searching for the problem youself is paying someone 100/hr to do the same. (No knock on your mechanic here, but out on the road it's definitely the luck of the draw finding someone capable.) There are some good "12 volt bibles" that can help a lot in comprehending.
Good going, you got her cranked that's the important thing.
Chuck
Thanks Chuck so very well put your description has made feel much better about my lack of understanding of the motorhome electrical systems! Kudos!
Plus you are exactly right the coach started right up for the mechanic yesterday when he tried it and he was so upset because he was not sure if he would be able to diagnose the orignial problem!
Tony
Title: Re: Coach will not start; Starter does not even turn over
Post by: Gayland Baasch on August 07, 2012, 10:01:39 am
I had the same problem EXCEPT, I could start it with the rear start. Happened one time, probably 30 starts ago. Now that its working for you, have you checked the rear start to make sure it works?