I recently purchased a 1991 U300 which the previous owner installed all new batteries in thankfully. I was at Foretravel's factory service center in Nacogdoches a few weeks ago and they tested the inverter and batteries and said everything is working fine. I just drove to Maine and a lot of the campgrounds here have no electricity. I doubt I'll need air conditioning so that shouldn't be a big deal. My main concern is the ice machine, which unfortunately is 120 volt AC and requires that I run the inverter all the time or lose the ice. I just spent the night in the parking lot at the Kittery Trading Post in Maine because I arrived a night earlier than I have campground reservations for. The inverter / ice machine ran all night and everything still appears to be fine. How long will new batteries last with the inverter / ice machine running all the time? How long will I need to run my generator each day to recharge the batteries? Why does the video screen read the coach voltage instead of the house voltage? Is there a way to tell what the voltage is on the house batteries other than going out there and putting my voltmeter on the battery terminals?... or am I confusing the "coach" voltage on the screen with the house voltage? To me the coach is the chassis and therefore would be the engine cranking battery. I presume the voltmeter on the dashboard is the engine's cranking battery? I would really prefer to have an ammeter on the engine's cranking battery and a voltmeter on the house batteries, but whatever. People with a lot more motor home experience designed it. I'm sure there's a good reason for the way things are, even if I don't understand it yet! haha
Scott
On my screen in the backup monitor, it measures the house barttery voltage the dash volt meter is the chassis voltage. The ice maker is a huge drain and I used to make ice and shut it off and put the ice in the freezer. If you have three house batteries you can go overnight easily two is also overnight as well but as they age you will find they will. OT make it thru the nigh if you put much load on them. We have two Cpaps as well as regular lights and most times boon docking the heat and blowers. I can last the night with the ice maker off and three house gell cells. I need a good four hours to recharge them with the generator. Do not just start up the engine and try to use the alternator. It will do it but shorten the life and burn it out faster. You need two alternators or a much bigger one to do that.
Scott,
If you have the coach's manual, Foretravel has a page that tells you the approx. amperage draw of each appliance. If not, maybe you can remove the appliance and try to find the plackard that tells you the size motor and amp draw (or watts). Don't mean to be other than helpful,,,watts=ampsxvolts. On the genset run time to fully charge the batteries...depends on how many & the state of charge, boost switch on or off, appliances running or not...on-and-on. For your unit, you need to get some experience with the charging times. There's just too many variables.
Peter
This entire adventure has been a learning experience! (laugh)... I still have a little over 12 volts showing on the video screen. I lost about half a volt overnight with the inverter / ice machine running. I think I'm just gonna start the engine and drive away. Hopefully the alternator will be okay with that. I like the idea of putting the ice in the freezer and shutting the inverter / ice machine off when boondocking. I'll see if I can fit the ice in the freezer... Is there a 12 volt DC ice machine? That would be really nice so I wouldn't need to run the inverter at all.
A 12vdc ice machine exists but the load would probably be about the same. If you put the ice in the fridge and run that on propane you would probably be ahead. Even with a lot of solar panels overnight with an ice machine running and the inverter (which has its own load) can still give you problems in the morning.
I am a big fan of the Kill-a-Watt device which is invaluable in determining how much load an AC device puts on a system. It also will measure the frequency (Hz) of your generator or shore power, the exact voltage, and will even calculate how much an appliance costs if you put in the appropriate numbers. All for under $50.
There are also battery monitors available which will keep track of charging and discharging so that you can always know the state of charge of a battery bank. Those run about $150 plus a shunt for about $50. Not all that hard to install, either.
Moving to LED lighting is important; especially for any incandescent lamps (bathroom lights, bedroom lights, etc.). Fluorescent lighting is pretty frugal but you can replace them with LED strips when the ballasts go out for about the same price as replacing the ballast itself. The LEDs are much more efficient.
Having the generator as a backup is important, I think. Do not leave the "boost" switch on all the time however or you'll risk not being able to start the generator or the coach after a stint of boondocking.
Craig
Your batteries are like a full glass of water sitting under a dripping faucet. Once you take a gulp out of the glass, unless the drip is sufficient to refill the glass, after a certain amount of gulps the glass will be empty.
I boondock most of the time when in California with 850 Watts of solar panels.
I removed the ice maker within the freezer of the Dometic 7832 refer which was OEM in my 1996 U320. I needed more freezer room and am willing to use ice trays in the freezer for making ice. I rebuilt the shelves inside the freezer to make an ice tray shelf (1.5 inches high) and an ice cube container about 4 inches high.
I use the Ice maker compressor when the sun is shining so it runs from solar power and reduces the temperature in the freezer compartment. I turn it off at night because it draws too much power.
How much is automatic ice making worth? The answer to this is different for each person.
If you make ice when driving and then store it in a plastic freezer bag in the freezer your boondocking motorhome experience will be better - dead batteries are not fun to deal with. When doondocking, if you turn the icemaker off when you have sufficient ice you will have power for other things like lights and TVs or radios.
If you have campground power, which I seldom do, enjoy your ice maker - it is a great convenience.
Won't the ice machine develop a bad odor after I turn it off every time unless I clean it thoroughly, spray it with bleach, and leave the door open? That sounds like a major annoyance as compared to leaving it running. In hot weather I drink a lot of ice water... which I'm actually doing right now... (slurp)... Ahhh!... When you guys talk about a three battery system as compared to a two battery system do you mean two house batteries and one cranking battery is a three battery system?... or do you mean three house batteries and a cranking battery? I have two new house batteries and a new cranking battery and it ran the ice machine / inverter all night long losing about half a volt from the time I went to sleep until I woke up in the morning. I was kinda surprised how well it did. How can I tell when the generator has sufficiently charged the batteries so I can shut down the generator again? Won't the volt meter on the video display show the voltage the generator is supplying instead of the voltage the batteries have in them?... Sorry to ask so many stoopid questions! haha
Scott,
I'll let others answer the specific items, but there are no stupid questions here. For every person who asks about something, there are at least 5-10 who either wanted to ask it or will benefit from the answer.
Michelle
No. We have a U-Line ice maker. When I shut it down, I just empty the bucket, wipe it out with dry towels, and leave the door open a crack. Been doing that for two years and had no problems with stuff growing in the ice maker.
We don't use much ice. I have started making ice in trays in the freezer compartment of the Dometic refrigerator. Works fine for us. We use the coach mostly for family visits and seldom spend more than two weeks at a time in the coach. Wife would like to replace the ice maker with drawers. Find out what works for you.
A smart charger with control center would serve you well if you are boondocking. It will show amp-hours used and also charge rate. You can read the state of the batteries from the control panel. Amp-hour tracking and current in/out of the batteries are very useful measures. Our coach came with a Link-2000 system as original equipment. It still works well. There have been discussions of suitable after market systems on this forum. The search function can help you find what other folk have done.
I'm one of those who benefits from the questions others ask. Even though we don't have a motor home yet, the questions or situations that others bring up often generate conversations here, as we assess that particular issue in regards to our plans. Usually the question causes us to think about something that we hadn't previously considered.
Again, thanks to all who have so generously answered our questions, given us advice, and shown us their coaches. You have helped us narrow down our choices from literally thousands of coaches to a small handful.
As to battery numbers. I have seen coaches with 2 or 3 house batteries, seems more batteries on newer coaches as things go all electric and larger inverters. Usually a set of linked engine or chassis batteries, usually two.
I have two 8D's for the house needs, and two group 24's for the engine and chassis.
I have three 8D batteries, all new in February 2012 according to the invoice from the previous owner. Two of them are house batteries and one is the cranking battery. Foretravel tested the whole setup and said it's working great, and apparently it is if last night is any indication of the performance I can expect. The major unknown for me now is how long I'll have to run the generator each day to keep the batteries charged. I just filled up with diesel so I'll be okay for several weeks of boondocking probably... Is half a volt drop overnight good performance? How low can the voltage go before I have to start the generator? I don't want to discharge the batteries to the point that I'm straining them or shortening their life. The batteries are expensive and I'm really glad the previous owner replaced them before he sold the rig to me.
We also live full time with solar and currently have three 8D MK gel batteries.
We monitor our voltage quite carefully and prefer to keep the voltage above 12.4 for average use and NEVER let it drop below 12.2 volts. Batteries are expensive. We also use an electronic desulfator.
I would encourage you to add at least 480 watts of solar to your roof to assist in keeping you in available power. Some add a lot more.
Also, check your battery voltage at the battery after you look at it on the monitor. You might find a difference. If you have three 8Ds you should be able to go overnight but you should run yoru generator not just start up. IF you want to have that confirmed call James Triana at the factory. He calls the alternator a maintainer not a charger.
We have a ice maker in the freezer but we often bring a small cooler and just by a bag of ice every couple days. We prefer the clear ice from a commercial ice maker anyway.
Battery voltage is not really the best indicator for battery health. You should know the amp rating of your batteries and not allow your current draw to exceed 1/4 of the rating. Deep cycle batteries can be drawn down to 50% of their rating and still recover but you will still shorten the life of the batteries. With the proper meter you can determine what you have drawn and make sure you replace it the following day. Batteries much happier that way.
Roland
I second Craig's advice on getting some kind of dedicated battery monitoring device. Trying to figure battery state with multiple voltage readings is a pain and as you've experienced, the dash gauges aren't accurate. I recently installed a Trimetric and it has taken all of the guesswork out of battery management. It and other similar devices display exact amps in and amps out as well as voltage and percent of battery charge. Check out some earlier posts and you'll find some good discussion and photos. Good luck.
jor
I always camp in the shade if possible, and I normally camp in places that have power. Solar panels would be sorta useless for me. I doubt I'm gonna buy an expensive battery monitor for the few times I camp without power. I'll probably just guess how long to run the generator each day and adjust as needed... so if I have two house batteries and a cranking battery do I have what you guys are calling a three battery system or a two battery system?
Rradio... you have what I'd call a 2-house (or "hotel") and one starting battery system. They should be entirely separate until you purposely connect them with a "boost" switch (or other means) to ensure that depleted house batteries will not affect starting your engine or generator.
You have mentioned that overnight use of the ice maker caused a "half volt" drop. Do not let your batteries get below 12.2vdc measured AT THE BATTERY TERMINALS or by a battery monitor system such as Tri Metric. Your batteries will be full at about 12.6vdc and need to be recharged at 12.2vdc. Do not rely on the video readout on the monitor! If you continually let your batteries get down to 12.2vdc you will not get a full lifetime of use from them.
If you do not have a "smart' charging system I'd also advise that you invest in one and install it. They cost about $150 from Amazon. I'm in the process of installing a TriMetric system on out 1993 coach along with solar panels.
By the way... there is precious little shade in the desert... so solar panels really help for lots of us. :D
Craig
With enough solar panels on the roof, you are already in the shade. :))
This is great advice and information for you RRadio, this is why I love this site.
RRadio, if you insists on running your ice maker when boondocking, you have two choices, pay now or pay later.
In other words, either buy a battery monitor and learn about how to manage your batteries, or replace very expensive batteries in a couple years. I have seen folks who did not manage their battery use and ruined a bank of batteries in one year. Brand new to scrap in just 12 months.
RRadio asked if a 0.5 volt drop in battery voltage is OK (or something like that).
The answer requires questions to be asked because determining the state of charge of a battery using battery voltage is quit inexact, and is more of an art than a science.
A fully charged battery which has stabilized will read about 12.70 volts.
A battery which is 50% discharged and has stabilized will read about 12.2 volts (ie a 0.5 volt drop).
Stabilized means battery has sat untouched for at least four hours with battery cables disconnected.
A battery which is 95% discharged and being recharged could easily read about 12.2 volts.
A fully charged battery which is providing power for a couple spot lights could read about 12.2 volts.
In other words, 12.2 volt battery voltage could mean the battery is 95% charged or 95% discharged - such is the nature of a lead acid battery.
The only convenient reliable way to determine battery state of charge is to use an amphour meter which has been calibrated to the battery. The inconvenient reliable ways include reading voltage after stabilizing for four hours or using a hydrometer (not possible with sealed batteries).
To see for yourself how battery voltage can change and not reflect the state of charge, attach a good voltmeter and plot voltage/time on graph paper. To a fully charged battery at 12.70 volts, connect bulbs which draw at least 5 amps. Voltage will drop rapidly for the first 20 minutes then become a steady state drop. After five hours of plotting, disconnect the bulb and continue plotting voltages. Voltage will climb like magic, rapidly for the first hour, then more slowly for about 12 hours.
RRadio, back to your Icemaker. An icemaker will turn on and off intermittently and the inverter will require a fraction of an amp when the icemaker is off and perhaps 40 amps when the icemaker is on. The number of minutes per hour the icemaker is on will depend on the room temperature where the icemaker is, and how long the icemaker door is open and how often water is added to make ice.
Personally, if I were you, I would put the ice cubes in a plastic bag in your freezer and shut off the ice maker when boondocking.
Thank you everyone for all the help that I have gotten by just riding along with Scott's question.
Wyatt really helped explain and test voltage drop. Once again I am amazed at the wealth of info on this site.
I will be boondocking without power for one night this weekend, so I may leave the ice machine running that night, then I'm back to camping with power for a week, then I'm without power for about a month... at which point I'll shut off the ice machine, clean it, and leave the door open so it won't develop an odor. I'll buy a bag of ice every so often until I have power again... I'll still have to experiment with how long to run the generator each day though. I don't use much power other than a laptop computer, water pump, and lights once in a while. I normally go to bed right when it gets dark. I think I'm going to install a 12V DC cigarette lighter plug that runs off the house batteries for the laptop. I have a 12V DC power supply for it. I won't need the inverter at all without the ice machine. When the ice machine dies I'll probably replace it with a 12V DC model... and when the air compressor dies, which could be soon considering the loud sounds it's making, I'll probably replace it with a 12V DC model... Does anyone make a 12V DC microwave oven? I think mine is already dead, but I hardly ever use a microwave so I haven't replaced it yet. I intend to remove the front TV because I never watch TV, but I'll probably keep the rear TV, which is 12V DC... and that should get rid of every 120V AC item in the whole rig shouldn't it? I'll be inverterless... is that a word? haha
Might I ask why you would want to do this?
-M
Dood, you need a honda 2k. Runs 8 hrs on 1 gal of gas if your gunna boondock frequently.
FWIW, I suggest that you get a good charger and charge controller. If the inverter works, leave it. Turn it on when you need it. Turn it off when you don't need it.
I have had my coach for two years. I have a good charge controller. It shows when the house batteries are charged. It shows how much the power has been extracted from the batteries since they were charged. I could not discern that information from voltages alone. I could only guess.
I just don't like inverters. I'm a data center engineer by trade and inverters are annoying and inefficient. I never could understand why they don't make servers that run on DC instead of AC. In a data center we bring in 12,470 volt AC, then cut it down to 480 volt AC, then it goes through a rectifier to make DC to charge huge rooms full of lead acid batteries. During a utility power failure these batteries would then power big inverters that would make AC power to send into the data center where the servers would then convert it back to DC. Each time we converted the power back and forth through an inverter or rectifier to convert to / from AC / DC we lost a bunch of power to heat, which then had to be removed by the chillers. I say just make all the equipment DC and get rid of the inverters, but whatever, smart people were paid a lot of money to design these places... This is why I bought a two stroke Detroit Diesel by the way. We had them at every data center and they're the best engines ever built. They'll run even without any electricity, which is kind of a no brainer if you're only running them during a power failure. They'll also run if one of the fuel pumps or injectors fails, and they're capable of priming themselves and restarting if they suck air into the fuel line like if the day tank runs dry or a fuel line breaks or somebody shuts the valve or something... Hey this stuff happens and the data center I was working in was for a very large bank that supposedly would lose billions of dollars in credit card revenue if it went down even for a minute. We also had Cummins and Caterpillars too and none of the four stroke diesels are capable of running without electricity, with a failed fuel pump, or priming and restarting after sucking air into the fuel line... Anyway, I don't like inverters. I think they're a total waste of energy and source of endless annoyance to people in my career field... but I'm biased! ha... They're probably okay in a non critical environment like a motor home.
RRadio,
Regards your question about how long it takes to charge the batteries, of course depends on how much they were discharged. I think you have the Freedom inverter/charger. It's always in the charge mode when generator or shore power is available. A simple way to tell when the batteries are charged is to check the voltage on the control panel. When it's charging the voltage will be at least 14. (MY panel has lights for each 1/2 volt so if 14 or 14.5 is lit, I know it is charging.) Amps drop off during the charge. Once the batteries are fully charged the charger stops charging and reverts to a float condition. When it does this the voltage drops to 13.5 or 13 volts. At this point you might as well turn off the generator if it is only being used to charge batteries as charging has stopped. Like others have said the less you discharge the batteries the longer they will last. It doesn't make since to become paranoid about it and not use the batteries though. A 25% discharge with an occasional 50% discharge should yield a reasonable battery life. As a battery ages it in effect becomes smaller in amp/hr capacity.
We have a 93, U300 so I presume it is very similar to your coach. It has two 8D sized gel batteries vintage 2004 for the house. Our ice maker is a Uline independent ice maker, not part of the refrigerator. We never run the ice maker for more than an hour or so on the inverter. When traveling, we turn it off.
Here are some basic guidelines we have developed.
1. Never trust the Javelina monitoring system for House Voltage. It is seldom accurate. Our original inverter was replaced by a Xantrex 3000. It provides digital monitoring.
2. Never let the batteries get below 12.2 Volts with no load on the system. We try to maintain a minimum of 12.4V most of the time. With the ice maker, the DVR, TV's and the inverter off, we can go two or three days without running the generator. It then takes three to five hours of running the generator to get back to 12.7 Volts. We try to hook up to 110V power once a week to get a full, float charge on the batteries, including the engine batteries via the boost switch.
3. We can leave the ice make off for over 12 hours with very little melting taking place if we keep the door shut. If it will be off more than 12 hours, we empty it, defrost it by laying a "ShamWow" absorbent cloth in on the floor of the ice maker and letting it drain into a dish pan set in front of the ice maker. Once defrosted, let it air dry for several hours, place a box of baking soda inside ant close the door. Very simple.
You did not say whether your batteries are flooded lead acid or Gel or AGM. If your inverter/charger is putting out 14.5 volts to a Gel battery, it needs to be adjusted down or you can shorten the life of the battery. If the inverter is the original and you don't wish to use an inverter, I would install a "Smart Charger/Converter" to enhance the life of the batteries. IMHO
Paul, I probably shouldn't discuss that stuff here, sorry.
Kent, I have three lead acid batteries, two for the house and one to crank the engine and they were all new February of this year.
I used to have two batteries in my old U270. It barely made it thru the night with my CPAP and some lights and the ICemaker off. If I left the ice maker on it would auto start about 4 am. I added two other gell 8Ds and I could make it thru the night with the icemaker . IF it was really cold I would start the genny anyway and run it. The fan motors would take it down as well the drain on the batteries from the cold. I had propane not Aquahot for that..Still with 4 batteries I could last the whole night. I would start the generator to recharge them though even if I was driving.
Do I have autostart on my 1991 U300 with an Onan 3 cylinder liquid cooled diesel?... if so how does it work?
Do I understand you to say that you a total of 4 8D Gel batteries in a U270? Were they all in the diesel compartment on the street side? I was thinking that it might weigh that corner down to have 4 batteries there(about 620lbs. worth). I was thinking I could add 1 more to the two already there, but it would be great to have 4 (or maybe wait until the lithium iron batteries come down to earth...).
Don
I had a new frame welded up and put them right there on the frame inside the coach. It was in the first bay and it was on the drivers side. THe passenger side had the propane and there was enough room to put the extra batter if I rebuilt the frame a bit.
Oh and we weighed all for corners and it was not an issue at all, In fact I just moved a couple things to the other side of the coach and that was all that was needed and the front was 100 pounds different side to side as was the rear. Of course I had the ISC not the M11 and only a 150 gallon fuel tank and not the 198 that the U320 had and I was 34 foot so I was pretty light.
Don, my 2000 U295 is most probably the same battery set up as yours and I have 3 AGM 8D with room for 1 more
John h
I'm pretty sure you don't have autostart unless it was added by a previous owner. It is about a $300 add on and to my knowledge was not available in the early 90's.
Thanks John,
You have two battery slide mechanisms then, one above the other? Could you post picture when you get a chance that shows where the upper slide mechanism is supported? I presume that it is independent of the lower mechanism. Is the upper one the same size as the lower? Maybe a picture will suffice to answer all of them!
I wish they were slides Don as those batteries are heavy sob's
Here are pics
John h
Just be thankful you can reach yours! Ours are tucked behind the AquaHot. You have to remove the panel from the bay next to the AH to reach them! The MK batteries weigh 160lbs!
Hmm. Your battery compartment is very similar to the one on our 1997 U295. However, all three of our house batteries are on sliding trays with roller bearings that still work. I am surprised that your newer U295 does not have sliding trays for those heavy batteries.
We have three 8D AGM batteries for the house and two Group 24 (I think) AGM batteries as chassis batteries. I would call it a three battery house system and two battery chassis/starting system.
Thanks for the pictures John! I can see that the batteries are supported by the partitions and that is what I was thinking I would do as well. It will help distribute the weight over a larger area than if they were supported from underneath.
Our U270 just has the 2 8D batteries... Thank god they are on a slide because without the bus style doors, I can't imagine getting close enough to to get them out by myself. With the slide, I was able to put a sturdy table level with the battery tray and kind of lift and slide it out on to the table. From there I was able to reverse deadlift it onto the ground. Without the slide, no way I could have done that. I will definely have to add a slide for more batteries because it would be even harder to acces the upper ones due to the door proximity.
These weigh 160lbs too but I did manage to get them in--just tough on the old back.
I also have 2 agm start batteries as most. I thought about building 2 slides but figured that as they never have to come out to check water I will only be removing them once in whatever lifetime they (or I) have so no big deal. There are many other things to think about changing !!!!
John H
Hi John H,
When visiting Mexico are most product cheaper? I hear drugs, dental, and oil, are lower than USA. What about those Lifeline Batteries? Where did you find them?
Thanks,
Raymond
I spent the night in beautiful Acadia National Park on the coast of Maine last night boondocking with no electricity. I didn't feel like cleaning out the ice machine just for one night without power so I let it run on the inverter all night, kept the door closed, and ran only the water pump and a little bit of lighting briefly. When the system was plugged in at my campsite with power in Camden Maine it showed 13.7 V on the screen, when I shut the engine off in Acadia at 1500 hours it showed 13.2 V, and before I started the engine the following morning at 1000 hours it showed 12.3 V. Nights on the Maine coast are cool even in August. I didn't have any problems. I won't be doing that again for a while though. It was just a one night thing. After this week I'll be spending at least a month boondocking with no power. I'm sure the system will do better without the inverter / ice machine running. Now I just need to experiment with how long to run the generator each day to charge the batteries. Thanks for your help you guys ^.^d
Raymond J, not everything is cheaper in mexico, but a lot is. Plus the variety of things is getting much better, but in USA you can find most things. It takes a few visits to realise what to buy and what not too!!
I got my Batteries at AMSOLAR in Springfield Ore as at the time they were the best price within a day drive of home. $500 ea compared to $800 in Canada on the west Coast. They have gone up a bit now I hear.
John H
RRadio: I don't believe that you have mentioned the size (i.e. watts) of your inverter. In my '92 U-280, it is just a 1500W Taytronics (not made any longer). Did you run your U-line overnight with one about that size or was it larger?
The control panel says it's a Taytronics Model RP2L if that means anything to you?
RRadio, when we boondock, we can generally go 2-3 days without a full battery charge. When using anything with a large current draw (coffee pot, microwave, hair dryer, ice maker etc) simply run your generator instead of the inverter, and keep a handle on the lights. Usually a couple of hours in the morning takes care of the heavy draw needs as well as brings the batterys back up to full charge. You should not let your batterys get below 12.1V (50%)discharge as it will shorten the life. My Lifeline house batterys are 6 years old and doing fine.
Wow, a six year old battery is a really long lasting battery in my experience, at least with car batteries it would be. The oldest car battery I ever had went seven years. I always buy top of the line Interstate car batteries with a fresh date code. I did some more research on the inverter and discovered that all microwave ovens have an inverter in them, even the 12 volt DC microwave ovens. All CRT type televisions have an inverter in them, but some of the newer LCD televisions can run on 12 volt DC directly. I don't watch TV so it's irrelevant information for me but maybe it will benefit others? Probably every other device, including the ice machine apparently, can be replaced with a 12 volt DC device that doesn't use an inverter. My air compressor sounds terrible and as soon as it dies I intend to install a 12 volt DC model to replace it. As it is now I have to set the airbags down when I'm boondocking without power, even if I'm on an uneven campsite, so a 12 volt DC compressor would be a nice upgrade... (pun?) ;D
Not sure if someone already mentioned this, but an autostart kit for your generator would be an excellent solution. When the batteries get to a certain point, the generator starts automatically and recharges the batteries. When the batteries charge to a certain point, the generator automatically stops. Camping World as well as PPL and others have these systems.
Hope this is helpful.
I got a Magnum Energy AGS-S from Defender Marine. The installation took a few of hours "puttering." I was able to make the installation inside the coach with crimp style spade connecters. It connects to the generator controls on the dashboard. Cost was under $300 for AGS and all other supplies.
Our coach had generator autostart as original equipment, but it had been removed. There were problems with units installed in 1996-7. Current technology is much better.
Replacing all your appliances with DC models will work but you will need to increase the wire sizes substantially. The power draw of the appliances will not change but the current will go way up (because the voltage went way down).
I always thought that the air compressors were 12VDC already.
Craig
I know of only one electric air compressor on my coach. It is the auxiliary compressor for the HWH leveling system. It is a 12VDC unit. It hardly ever runs.
I think I would get thrown out of the campground if my noisy diesel generator autostarted itself during quiet hours. They have only certain hours of the day that you can run the generator so I'll have to abide by their rules. I believe a previous owner replaced the compressor with a 120 volt AC model. All the airbags are old and leaking. I need to have them changed but I didn't have the money when I was at Foretravel factory service in Nacogdoches recently, so I purchased a new airbag to carry with me as a spare in case one blows out on the road. The air compressor runs a lot due to the old airbags and it sounds like the compressor is about to come apart, probably from high hours. I'll look at it today and check the oil unless it's one of those oil free compressors or something? I'll install a 12 volt DC compressor as soon as this one dies... maybe I'll even order it now and carry it around with me. This compressor only has to survive until Friday morning and then I'm boondocking without power for the rest of the time I'm in Maine, probably over a month. I realize 12 volt DC requires much larger wiring than 120 volt AC. I'll run a separate heavy gauge wire with an in line fuse near at the batteries for each device I install.
Magnum AGS has a setting for quiet hours. The other option is to turn off the autostart function during quiet hours.
I added the autostart module primarily for protection of the batteries in case we are running on batteries in an area where running the generator is not a problem. We sometimes park overnight in rest areas, casino parking lots, truck stops, etc. In hot weather, the generator runs all night. In cold weather, we run on batteries. Knowing the autostart module is watching the batteries is comforting.
RRadio, replacing everything with 12V and the larger wire required would be a chore as well as $$. The bottom line here is you have to manage your use of electricity, and unless you have a whole bunch of solar panels you are going to end up running your generator a couple of hours a day anyway, especially if you use the microwave, coffee pot, and ice maker.
I'm gonna turn off the ice machine and inverter on Friday when I go without power for over a month. The convection oven apparently doesn't work, but I never use a microwave anyway, so I may remove it and install a "real" light or perhaps a range hood over the gas range, which I do use. I don't watch TV either so if I remove the TV and the convection oven I should save about a hundred pounds and gain space for something I do use. I make coffee in a percolator on the gas stove. I only need to install a 12 volt DC compressor. Everything else will work fine on batteries without the inverter... I dunno why I have a 120 volt AC compressor? I was looking at it yesterday and it appears to be the factory installed original. I'll ask Foretravel about it next time.
I carry a 120v pancake compressor to set my tire pressure. I have been in situations where I need air in a tire and the locals don't have the means to inflate my tires at the proper pressure. This compressor however is on a separate circuit breaker and is only on when I need it.
Roland
Apparently I use so little electricity that I have little to worry about. I've been boondocking since Friday and running the genset even two hours seems to be overkill. My main electric consumer is my laptop computer which is plugged into the dashboard cigarette lighter socket with a 12 volt DC power adapter. I converted the dashboard cigarette lighter socket to the coach batteries. It was previously connected to the cranking battery. I presume the lighter socket behind the small TV in the bedroom is already connected to the coach batteries instead of the cranking battery. I'll verify that on the drawings before I use it, if I ever do. I emptied the ice machine and discovered its ice cube bin fits inside the gas freezer, which was probably a case of good planning on someone's part, and I appreciate the convenience. I could live without the ice machine and just buy a bag of ice when I get groceries and put the ice in the bin. I'm not using the inverter at all without the ice machine. I hate that the convection oven is useless without 120 volt AC power. It is apparently broken anyway so I may remove it tomorrow and install a 12 volt DC light directly over the gas range. I never use a microwave anyway. I was considering installing a 12 volt DC range hood over the gas range but I really only need a light. I want to install a 12 volt DC light inside the oven also but I haven't thought that all the way through yet, so I'll wait for another time. The 120 volt AC air compressor is the original as installed by Foretravel. When it wears out I'll replace it with a 12 volt DC compressor so I can use the airbags to level the coach on uneven campsites when boondocking without power. Fortunately the campsites I've had without power are nearly level anyway, so the compressor isn't really needed. I set the coach down all the way as soon as I find the most level spot on the campsite... I'm at St George Lake state park in Liberty Maine currently by the way, and it's nice... So basically I've only run my genset a couple of times since I've been boondocking in Maine, the first time for a couple of hours, which was overkill, and the second time for about one hour, which might not have been quite enough to fully charge the batteries but it was more than enough charge to make it through another night. On the days when I'm driving somewhere I don't bother to start the genset at all. The batteries are so lightly discharged that the alternator is doing fine charging them. Maine is a cool climate, even in the Summer, so I doubt the alternator will get hot charging the lightly discharged coach batteries... This is all I've learned about boondocking without power for now.
It is not the weather that heats it up but the alternator looks to a low charge situation and bulk charges running full out...
I think 2-3 100 watt solar panels would help you a maintain your house and start battery's. Remember when in service the refrigerator should be kept level or you can have big problems that's one of the reasons for the 12volt air compressor. Gam
Our experience boondocking has been much like yours. If we don't use the ice maker, coffee maker, microwave or the Dish Network DVR and TV's we can go as much as three days before the 12V drops below 12.4 no load volts. My two lifeline batteries were installed in 10/2004 are apparently are still performing very well. We have installed LED bulbs in all of the lights we typically use. When the batteries are at 12.3 it takes three to four hours to reach almost a full recharge (13.1 V @ <10 amps). I try to never go below 12.2 volts. When I shut off the generator it will stabilize at 12.7 Volts for a long time.
It appears you have already figured most of this out. Just enjoy!!!
Solar panels wouldn't help me because I camp in the shade whenever possible. I think I'm gonna be okay just because I don't use much electricity and my batteries are new. I'll probably continue to run the genset an hour or two each day except the days I'm driving somewhere. I ran it a little over two hours today so I could use the central vacuum. I haven't been using the inverter at all, and I honestly don't miss the ice machine at all. I doubt I'll even replace it if it ever dies on me. Seems like I could buy a lot of bags of ice at the grocery store for that amount of money and hassle. The thing still has water in it, probably coming out of the insulation shell. I've had the door open drying it out since Friday.
RRadio
A 120v compressor will provide a higher volume of compressed air than a 12v compressor. My shop compressor uses 240vac @ 9.5 amps and produces 6 cfpm at 90psi. My portable (household) compressor uses 120 vac @ 13amps and produces 4 cfpm at 90psi. My Foretravel 12v compressor uses 12vCD @ 10 amps and produces 0.4 cfpm at 90 psi. I carry the 12v, 10amp compressor and a 120VAC, 13amp compressor in my Foretravel. I also carry a 12v, 10amp compressor in my Suzuki 4x4. I have modified the air bag lines in my Foretravel by adding schrader valves to allow filling like a tire. I also modified the air line from the 12v compressor to allow airing up the air bags from a 120VAC compressor, and also the main air lines to allow airing up the air brakes from the 120VAC compressor. This allows me to air up quietly and then run the Cummins M11 for just a short warm up before pulling out (people hate diesels at 6am).
For camping, I shift the coach around to get as level as possible before dumping the air in the airbags. I can normally get as level as needed using level indicators near the driver seat. Then, if neccessary, I use (a pair of) 2 inch diameter aluminum pipes which are 6.25 inches long and other small plates or hard wood to block up the low corner of the motorhome. A pipe which is 6.25 long will provide almost full air bag extension when positioned over the metal donut which is 2 feet inboard of the airbag. It will provide almost no lift when positioned near the airbag. I dump all the airbag air to settle on the stops as low as possible so that the exit step is close to the ground. I can then sit level for weeks without using a compressor.
If just stopped for overnight, I leave the HWH level system "ON" and use the 12v compressor if neccessary.
Note that if you elect to air up brakes with a 120VAC compressor you must use a water seperator and dessicant to get very dry air.
That's a great idea that I hadn't thought of, blocking up the suspension and letting the airbags down... I'll investigate that more thoroughly when I get a chance to think it through clearly.
I use 6 1/2" 4x4's to keep the coach off the tires. You can also put one on it's side and the other on top of it to give you 10" clearance if you need to go under the front or back.
We leave the HWH system on for weeks at a time and I never hear the 12V compressor come on. Of course our air bags were replaced in 2009 so they don't leak at all.
I noticed that letting all the airbags down except for one rear corner uses a lot less air than keeping all four corners up. My airbags are over 20 years old and they need to be replaced... as soon as I can afford to that is. I'm carrying a new spare airbag with me just in case I blow one on the road somewhere.
Our experience is similar. The 12V compressor seldom runs under any circumstances. Also, I often operate the HWH in manual mode or turn it off after leveling. The coach stays level for weeks. I expect many leaks that people attribute to the air bags are at the "six packs" rather than at the bags. Several of our air bags are looking ragged on the surface, but there is no evidence of any leaks.
There is a discussion of air leaks and the six-packs here: AIR LEAKS!!! (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=12292.msg63920#msg63920)
If you do block the suspension with wood, be aware that hardwood is much stronger than softwood and all wood will crush much easier across the grain then along the grain. To be safe, insert the wood blocks, dump the air, and check the blocks before climbing under the coach.
Also be aware that if the rear of the coach is high, the rear most airbags will be longer than the front most airbags on the rear suspension. I carefully check the gap difference when inserting my aluminum pipe blocks and normally add a 1/4 inch thick aluminum plate to one of the pipes. I discovered this by accident because I could move one of the pipes after dumping the air from the airbags such that just one pipe on the blocked corner was holding the weight. I believe that some folks use just one block at each corner, however, I am uncertain what effect the resulting twisting forces will have on the suspension so I use two blocks on each corner.
On my first two coaches I always turned off the 12 volt pump but with slides you need it to make sure the bladders remain full.
Small point, When I had Cummins man crawl under the coach to replace the cracked brass 3/8," Tee, I did not have my safety stands along, so he got a hydraulic bottle jack, placed it between the frame members, took up the slack, dumped the air, all was fine. I love em skinny high speed young men (kids) who act like they enjoy their work, guess it reminds me of me 50 yrs ago. That was at Cummins Souix Falls, SD
PTL
Dave M
Dave,
I never knew you were "skinny"! :-)
Peter,
Yup, a relative term, when I exited the USMC, I was 22 & 160 lb. Skinny for me :o
Dave M
Just an update, I discovered I can run on batteries for at least three days before starting the genset to charge the batteries. I had at least 12.7 volts showing on the CRT monitor and it dropped about .1 volt per day, mostly just running my laptop computer from a 12 volt DC power supply. If I hadn't been running the computer the batteries would have gone a really long time. I still had at least 12.3 volts showing on the CRT when I decided to start the genset and recharge them. I'm sure I could have gone at least another day, even running the laptop most of the time. I have my modem and Blackberry plugged into my laptop's USB ports so everything charges from the computer's 12 volt DC power supply. I never turn on my inverter. It's amazing how long a coach like this can run in a boondocking situation. I predict the limiting factor for my coach is probably the 40 gallon LP gas tank, not the 150 gallon diesel tank as I previously thought. If I only have to start the genset once a week a full tank of diesel should last a few years. I suspect the refrigerator would run out of LP before the genset ran out of diesel ...not that anybody cares :)
Good to hear you enjoying your coach Scott
I just looked it up on the internet to see how much LP gas one of these RV refrigerators burns and it looks like a typical model uses about 1/3 gallon of LP every 24 hours depending on the temperature. That's kinda discouraging. According to those figures my refrigerator can only go about 4 months on a full tank of gas... :( ...Does anybody on this forum have long term boondocking test figures to verify this?
You could always run it on the inverter and put solar up to keep the batteries topped off. I have a residential unit now and can go all night with no real effort running the fridge and two cpaps TVs and lights. In the winter I will run the aquahot too.
You can always pull the fridge down extra cold and turn it off for the night. If no one is opening the doors it will probably stay cold long enough. You can even test it by putting a wireless remote thermometer sensor inside it with the readout outside and see how much it cools after, say, three hours. Extrapolate that and pull the temp down at night to the point where warming won't get it beyond what you want.
You can use the generator or solar panels/inverter to do that (if you have them).
I cannot recommend solar panels too highly. Even if you just buy one panel and prop it up against the coach in the sun and use clamps to connect it to the batteries and monitor everything with a digital voltmeter. (I've don it this way myself, often!)
Craig
as Craig said Solar is the way to go . Just spent over a day replacing the MPPT controller and wiring on my system. It is now wired with #2 copper stranded to get rid of any voltage drop along the way. Had a little problem for a while as there was a short in the system on breaker box, turned out the wire clamp had cut thru wire insulation. Now ok.
I had to reset Trimetic as now it was showing 102% charged on batteries so maybe there is extra amps/volts getting thru the bigger wire.
That is some tough wire to bend and run thru holes, but it is done and I am glad.
John H
102%!!! I like that number!!!
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I want to be just like John Haygarth when I grow up! :D
Craig
If I ever get a solar panel it'll be one that just sits on the ground in a sunny spot and plugs into the coach with a long cord. I'm not putting any panels on the roof. I always try to camp in the shade whenever possible. I could buy several years' worth of diesel for my genset for the price of a solar panel, and the batteries / diesel apparently aren't the limiting factor to my boondockability anyway.
Has anyone run a gas refrigerator for several months before? How long can a 40 gallon tank actually last with just the refrigerator running? ...they make kerosene refrigerators that would probably run just fine on diesel ...hmmm ::)
Craig, you make me smile but you will have to wait a while to be as old as I am. Going to be 70 soon!! yikes
John H
You can always bring an extra 60 or 100 Lbs propane tank with you and then take it to be filled.Gam
I used up the entire full propane tank one winter by mistake (mom was plugged in but refer was on gas by mistake) was about 40 days or less in fall near tampa
That's a gallon a day! :o
Gallon a month was an experienced shops mention to me today
Scott,
You asked a good question and I answered with real world experience.
One 240-watt solar panel is about $300. Let's say you get everything (MPPT charge controller and wiring plus panel) and put about $1k into it. That's 500 hours of genset (at 0.5 gph) at $4 an hour. If you full-time and boondock a lot that would be maybe 2 years.
But then you'd have to pony up another $1k for more diesel for another two years.
Of course the panel won't completely eliminate genset operation but it will reduce it quite a bit. And if you manage to somehow get both start and house batteries too low it can make a difference.
The long cord system will work fine. There is the risk of theft, of course (which is reduced considerably by roof mounting). Out here in the Pacific Northwest we either have desert (and not much shade) or we have cool air (near the Pacific coast) or we have hookups. A COE camp spot with 50A for $7 a night and completely covered by shade is ok in my book.
John: I already turned 70. I didn't say when I get old... I said when I grow up. :P
Craig
I'm not sure you'll find a kerosine refrigerator that fits. I suspect that they're now rare even in the developed world what with propane everywhere now.
If I could get a low profile 12 volt DC evaporative cooler (aka swamp cooler) that would fit where the vent fan is near the kitchen stove I'd probably get a solar panel capable of running that. I never use the vent fan in the kitchen. Does anyone make a swamper for RVs?
Here is a site for what you are looking for:
Stay Cool with TurboKOOL - Advanced RV Evaporative Air (Swamp) Coolers (http://turbokool.com/)
Why not fill your tank, use refer for 30 days, (use, not just run, door opening makes a difference, as does ambient temp) and the fill to check 30 day usage. Then you will know for sure your actual consumption.
40 gal tank @ 80% is 32 gallons. Why would FT put that much on a U-320 just for refer and 2 burner stove unless needed?
Anyway, it was a mistake, but a good data point
Most folks who pay attention, find LP Gas the most expensive fuel you could use.
Back in the 60s they had free standing ones for cars - straddled the trans tunnel!
Wow, that TurboKOOL is over $700! It's exactly what I was looking for though. I can buy a lot of diesel for my genset at that price.
Says you live in Tennessee? Swamp coolers do not work well in High humidity areas as far as I know.
I'm full time in the coach. My mailbox is in Nashville because I have a nationally syndicated radio show. I'm in Amarillo currently but I travel all over the country.
Scott,
When we had our U-240 it worked out that we were able to run aprox. 15 days on 5 gal. You need to look on your fridge info label and see what the BTU per hour rating it has (should be around 1200-1400 BTU per hr) then divide that into 91,500 (that is how many BTU's that are in a gallon if propane) that number ( is the hours per gal) needs to be divided by 24 (this gives you the days) then multiply that number by the amount of gallons you have. That will get you in the ball park.
Pamela & Mike
My refrigerator says it's a 1500 Btu/hr model, which figures out to about 100 days on a 40 gallon tank. I suppose the temperature makes a difference because it probably doesn't run at full capacity in cooler weather. Somehow I was expecting it to run much longer. It seems like it would take a long time for such a tiny flame to drain such a big tank. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, there's a reason why Foretravel installed a big tank.
I guess you're not using hot water either?
My tank ('90 u280) is 80 Gal. (64 gal propane). I keep running out because I use it for heat too. It lasts much longer in the summer.
Since your toad has only 2 wheels, it will probably be difficult to use a 100# spare extenda-stay-tank. I did discover that $3.00/gal at convenient service stations and hardware stores is a bit steep. At the Falcon Meadows Park near Falcon, CO the local bulk distributor circles the park every Friday and the price was $1.90, last I checked. This spring, I filled up from the bulk distributor when he topped off my host's household 500 g. tank at $1.86.
$1.90 makes it nearly affordable.
Isn't the hot water heater 6-7k btu's ? Big flame....
Long time shop owner mentioned 1 gallon a month. Not sure how the figuring matches but?......
I was thinking ahead to the troubled times if you know what I mean. I'll be heating water and cooking on a wood fire and definitely saving my LP gas for the refrigerator only. I wanted to have a freezer and refrigerator for as long as possible. I'll look into kerosene refrigerators when my gas refrigerator finally dies. I'm sure the kerosene refrigerators must be able to run on diesel, probably for several years on a 150 gallon tank. I could probably convert my gas refrigerator to run on dual fuels if I were really inventive.
Got smart after finding out our 06 Dometic Classic was using 300 watts per hour for about 24 hrs a day due to hot weather, removed it, sold it for $500 and bought a $300 Magic Chef 10 cu. ft Residential for $325.00. Took a little to build a new platform and install aux. cooling fan, now works great and only drawing 1.4 amps. Next will be Solar, getting closer to cutting the cord.
I don't know how offhand how diesel compares to kerosene in terms of btu value, but a 7.3 cu. foot Servel kerosene refrigerator is specified to consume 1/4 gallon of kerosene in 24 hours (no idea at what ambient temp they are rated at nor how real world efficiency would compare). That would be 600 days on a 150 gallon tank.
From what I have read they need some routine wick adjustment/replacement and also cleaning (kerosene is "dirtier" than propane). Also clearance at the top (a foot or two). Many people used to have these at their north woods cabins.
Very little experience with the kerosene refrigs, but know they work, but are not a set and forget, lots of tweeking plus attention to detail.
Takes a special sort of custoer to be joyful.
I wasn't aware kerosene refrigerators use so much fuel or that they're dirty. I've never actually encountered a kerosene refrigerator, which is sorta surprising to me, but I've seen quite a few gas refrigerators in cabins and RVs over the years. Some of them were over 50 years old and still running. I remember a cabin in the woods on the lake behind the house I grew up in had a gas refrigerator, gas stove, and gas lamps. The old man who stayed down there during the summer had a telephone but no electricity. He ran the whole summer on one tank of LP gas. I can't remember how big the tank was. The refrigerator was probably a 1930s model but he kept it in good running condition. I doubt it was as efficient as modern RV gas refrigerators.
LP tanks for fixed residences tend to be larger than RV tanks. The tank for our home is a 500 gallon unit, which is a very common size in our neighborhood. The 500 gallon tank holds 400 gallons of LP when full. The LP company tracks usage by degree days, "normal" usage, and upcoming weather conditions. They usually deliver about 100 gallons for the house and top off the RV while they are on site. We normally get no deliveries in the summer and a few in the winter, depending on weather. We use LP for central heat, to heat water, and for stove top cooking (very little).
A 500 gallon LP tank would supply a modest cabin for a long time if a person were frugal.