Well, I decided to keep my coach but looking at new ones sure opens your eyes. I just read that Newmar sold its 1000 Essex. I was in one or two and they favorably compare to the phenix. Not so flashy with inlay but a solid coach and in the 600-700 area. FT used to make 300 coaches a year. I do not believe they are making coaches people want today. I was at Grizzly and Blackwells. I talked to a couple of owners of MHs. They said they love the older numbered coaches but were left cold when they say the new IH. On bought an Essex the other an 03 Marathon and one bought a 2010 Newell. Said the difference in the factory was night and day. Sad to hear this. I remember being at a rally and hearing we dream about owning a FT. Have not heard that in a while when it comes to new coaches.
Not trying to bash FT. I have had three of them but hope they might read this and talk to some owners at the GV.
I tend to agree. There is a market out there for coaches that are more like the U320. The clientele for motor-homes like these tends to be older and with more conservative tastes. Make a coach that is pure quality and save money on all the glitz and glitter - windows outlined in LED's??? yuk... then price it reasonably. Just look at the market for the older units and I think that proves it.
I know that Foretravel think that the starter Foretravel is a used one. Maybe they are right but they may sell more new units. Stop chasing other manufactures and re-carve the niche that they once had.
Note to Factory: Do some market research on the Forum. It's free and you may learn something.
Keith
Here is another problem. I think it could be argued (and I think it has been on this forum) that the quality of pre-IH coaches declined after about 2003. So the number of high quality coaches available for the "starter market" is declining with time. I am sure there will not be agreement with this assessment from those owners of newer coaches, but from what I have seen and heard, I really do think quality is an issue in newer coaches. They are simply more problematic than the earlier coaches. And "problem free" RVing is what made FT's name.
I agree that FT is barking up the wrong tree, unless they want to be a specialty manufacturer and create a dozen or so coaches per year for the top "1%." But I don't see them competing with manufacturers like Newell. Too bad. Maybe it is the end of an era. As I suggested previously, a line of new, smaller, quality coaches, based on the U295 model would seem to be attractive. But who knows what will happen to the coach market when fuel hits $5 a gallon. Tough market to be in.
For us Canadians our price per imp gallon is close to $6 right now, and over in some areas.
I would agree that a toned down 36ft-40ft non all electric, but with quality finishing and less "Las Vegas" lighting and mirrors would surely fit most of the market out there.
John H
For those of you with pre 1999 Foretravel's the simplicity you talk about could not be sold in today's market. You didn't have slides and many of the other elements that make up any manufactured motorhome of to days era. Even the basic $150,000 entry level unit has more bells and whistles than yours. How do you expect Foretravel to compete with other manufactures with the quality you rave about and want, yet stay competitive with their designs. I have owned 4 Foretravels and each one was about $150,000 more at list price than the other. I can't see where the quality has gone down but rather the complexity has gone up. Your pre EGR and exhaust compliant engines cost a fraction of today's costs. I'm old enough to remember buying a new car for $3500, that same car today is $35000. Come on give Foretravel a break they have survived in a era of the end of some very fine Coach manufacturers. They sell a beautiful product among the fiberglass category, and yes they are catering to a select group of buyers that have the means to spend $600,000 up for their Motorhomes. The Foretravel Frame, DriveTrain, including retarder probably costs as much as a entry coach. Personally I can't afford a new Foretravel, I was lucky enough to buy my 08 at the right time in my life and financial life. Today things are surely different. but i don't blame Foretravel for my inability to buy at a price I find acceptable.
Jame's Stalling said it best,when he told the Fore family to keep the U270 as the entry level coach,drop the U295 as it was just an upgraded 270,keep the U320, and buy Prevost Shells for the high end coach.
Well, what caused me to say this was going into a new Newell followed the same day by a number of new FTs. I also happened to see a new Essex at the same time. If you compare them you have Newell then FT then Essex in order f quality. I have been told that Newell is selling more coaches than FT is selling for more money. I worry that the company is going to have issues as the late model used units dry up. They did about 75 or so after they took over and have declined every year since. Yes they survived the downturn but that was because they were in a rebuilding phase. Well, you can only stay in that phase so long. I want them to survive and thrive. I just think that if you look at the coaches out there for sale that they are competing with that there needs to be some adjustments. Everyone has the same costs for engines and setup. I think they need to be able to produce more coaches and as a result they need to look at their approach.
I would suggest a different business model (as I did several years ago).
Research Hinkley Yachts. They are the Rolls Royce of sailboats (and now some powerboats). They have been in business since 1928.
Sure, they sell some new boats. But the majority of their profit each year is from REFURBISHING older Hinkleys.
We all know that the older Foretravels are worth the investment to upgrade.
That is the part of the business model that I suggested to Lyle be strengthened the day before he closed on the business. The refurb/upgrading business is MUCH more steady than is new coach sales. Foretravel has the expertise, the space and the people.
Brett
That is a great business line. I was talking to David F and he said he got to hire two more guys. I do not think you can cover the cost for a factory though with a few sales and remodels.
BTW, I was at the Annapolis Sailboat show and was invited to the Hinkley house party as well as Hood. I used to teach sailing in Annapolis and had a Sailboat that I raced for 10 years prior to getting my first MH.
OK, I'll bite (and go WAY off topic). What boat did you race where? BTW been through Hinkley factory with Hinkley nephew and then had Tom Morris take us through the Morris yard across the bay. GREAT experiences for any sail-boater. But, we ended up buying and putting a lot of miles on boats built on the "left coast". Pacific Seacraft Crealock 37's.
Now, back on topic: I have no idea what Mr Reed paid for Foretravel, or how the debt is styled, so projecting P&L isn't possible. But, from running large automobile dealerships for a career, I can tell you that fixed operations had better pay the overhead, with sales generating the profit. That is (and was) car business 101.
Brett's right on..."their" business model better make sure the break-even number of coaches gets built & sold every year as we know where deficit spending leads you...FWIW.
Peter
Actually in the car business, you had better be able to break even on the "back end" profit-- New and used vehicle sales are the GRAVY.
Let's face it, the average motorhome buyer doesn't truly know about them. They don't do exhaustive research before buying, and their choices are based more on fluff than on substance. That's what has always kept Foretravel a low volume manufacturer. If you don't know what's underneath the thing, and behind the walls, you will certainly wonder why the Foretravel costs $200K more than the (any SOB here). Thank goodness, those of us on this Forum knew, and that's why we smile and nod as our friends regale us with their shiny knew SOBs, knowing that our trusty old Foretravel will most likely still be on the road long after theirs have given up the ghost. IMHO.
Well well ; lets see who can BASH Foretravel the most . I don't see a need to try and make everyone who bought a later model Foretravel look stupid . This puts a wedge where it is not needed . Makes for feelings that best left alone . How can this type of think be good for this forum ? Do we have too many members and need to shed a few ? Everyone has their likes and dislikes , why try to impose your likes .The owners of Foretravel bought a company inches away from closing forever and you have to BASH them for trying to survive and make something out of nothing. Shame on you . We need to support this struggling company . They have not yet had a profitable year and they sure don't need this in their face. If you have an improvement idea , go talk to Greg or Lyle ,don't try to posion the world . Brad Metzger
I will only add that I reckon 99% of us forum members ARE supporting the factory by owning, upgrading, and talking non stop about the pride we all seem to have in our coaches. I know I am weekly being asked about it as (especially here in the "backwoods" of Canada) you do not see these around here, and people love it when they take a peek. We have a major seller of Newmars in the next town and most owners of DP have a Newmar, they are everywhere. None compare to our quality of fittings etc (once you get past the glitter in theirs). A 10 yr old Newmar looks like it was 15yrs. A 10 yr old Foretravel looks like it was 5yrs. I see pride of ownership in a Foretravel, but Newmars and SOBs are just used for what they are, somewere to sleep on a trip!!
I think that the comments so far are not meant to knock FOT, just to try and make them better than we know they are. Since joining this forum I have firstly met a lot of great people, and also really enjoyed learning about, and, being able to improve my coach to be the best it can.Hopefully the fact that we all own one is proof enough that we DO care about FOT and it's future.
That's all I have to say.
John H
I made a good living as a new foretravel salesman in the middle 80's rebuilding the old ftx's from the seventy's with new 80's interiors and window treatments.
Some never upgraded as their finances could not support a new 180k coach in the 80's.
Must have done a couple dozen. Lots of detail work. Ask mike grimes as I am sure he still remembers me.
But everyone made money and the customers got great motorhomes and into the club.
Most upgraded over the years. Selling quality used was never hard. Still is not hard.
The Newell had a frame rail if I remember? Maybe wrong as this was long ago.
Used to laugh as their 45' was 45'6" and illegal everywhere. Had to have a tow car as the combined length was ok but not the coach then.
Same as the prevost le mirage at 103.5" width at the belt molding.
Bob
Well, I just saw a FT that fits the bill a Nimbus 6565. It is a quad slide though. In looking at it and the others they have, it is the lack of wood that is different on the IH and Phenix. This one looks closer to our coaches than the IH and other ones with huge expanses of some type of non-wood covering. And yes Brad, I do want them to survive and the fact tat there has not been a profitable year as you say is one reason to talk about it. Something is going to give sooner or later and I did send an email to Greg A too. I have gone in and talked to him as well. We have the largest user base of owners on here though and that is why I posted here. To discuss the models and what we like and dislike is a service not a slap in the face to any owner or to the company. I am saying this because I read that Newmar sold 1000 Essex coaches and that is a private company just below FT and Newell is selling just above. Sometimes management just is not seeing the forest out there. David bringing Newell to there doorstep is going to bring this to a head sooner rather than later. It did not have to happen this way but since there highline competitor is across the street and I saw a new Newell it has been eating at me. I truely believe that FT makes the best coach or did make it for years. I owned three of them. I wanted to buy a new one when I got my current one. They would not put an IFS on a Nimbus at the time and I was told buy a Phenix. Oh and to delete slides makes it more expensive too. So I went older and remodeled instead of buying new. I have talked to others too about this as well. They have a Nimbus now that I have seen that is very close. Too many slides for me on this one and in talking to Tyle they are building a non slide right now for a customer, so I am not alone in wanting a simpler coach with less electronics. The issues I have are the electronics. I think if FT adjusted how they are selling the coaches and put sales centers back in TN and Liberty Lake and California as well as a couple in Texas and one if FL they could sell the heck out of the coaches. As it is nobody sees them. I went to the RV show in Washington DC. That is one of the most affluent counties in the country and no FT there. We are seeing the numbers in our club dwindle in the North East and Mid Atlantic. They have ceded the market to the Newmars and Tiffens of the world and that is sad. There has to be a way to make a competitive coach without bells and whistles yet retain FT quality and sell a lot of them.
John,
That's what I said a while back and I was made to feel pretty stupid as some said that the new owners knew what they were doing and profit margins and this & that. Then again, maybe they know something we don't.
Peter
Reminds me of TV commercials in the NY area that ran when Steve and I were young - "An educated consumer is our best customer" - Sy Syms
This September 6th our coach will be 10 years old, and everyone non-FTer who sees it thinks it's only a year old (and that was before the headlight/tail light conversion).
Comparing a FT to an Essex (or Tiffin's Zephyr, which might be considered in the same space) isn't really valid. The Essex and Zehyr are stock floor plan, stock design package coaches. Even the "old Monaco" Signature's were as well. I believe all FT's built these days are fully custom coaches, even the Nimbus. Kind of like comparing a tract home builder to a custom home builder.
Now if FT wanted to increase production volume and play in that space, one possibility would be to take the Nimbus (and maybe Phenix) and make those stock floor plan coaches with stock design packages. Much like the U's and GV's through 2005 were. Less engineering/design cost, lower materials cost by volume buying of certain things. A risk, of course, is that higher production volume means more inventory and production personnel that are vulnerable to market fluctuations.
When the time comes, our next coach will be another FT. It will most likely be a pre-owned; that's just our way. Hopefully there's another FTer out there with our same design ideas and has it built ;)
Michelle
I like the old ones and I like the new ones.
jor
Let's not forget that FOT has to appeal to new buyers to stay in business long term. This means a new generation of people too. The newer generation wants the the fancy gadgets and electronics as that is what they grew up with.
Let me chime in as an SOB owner that's hoping to get an FT.
We live in NC and hadn't heard of Foretravel or seen one until a trip in May of this year. We had stumbled across a Foretravel rally at Mayberry Campgrounds in NC, after a mistake in our reservation at Stone mountain SP in NC. I saw all these coaches with numbers and very similar looks, had no idea what they were. After doing my research on the net, we were surprised at what we saw, and fascinated.
We're currently getting ready to list our current SOB so we can pursue an FT. I wish we had known about them before! FT really needs more exposure, if they want more sales.
I think every MC builder has the problem today of balancing quality and tech. Personally I like the look of the Foretravel stuff over Newell's as they seem to be less flashy. I'm not looking to drive a casino around! My bigger concern would be, where is the entry level FT? Someone has to buy these new for those of us that want to buy used. I'm talking something in the sub 500k range and not trying to compete in the lower end. Though I do think if FT offered a high quailty yet simple coach they could disrupt a few markets. Not every MH needs 5 TV's and touchscreens every 5 feet. I love tech and have grown up with it, but when I'm traveling or camping I'm not looking to control every aspect of the coach with a smart phone. I'm willing to bet if they had maybe a 36' with and optional slide, just a simple layout with excellent quaility, would sell very well, if promoted.
Maybe they're just making enough selling what the sell now? It's definitely a much different market than it used to be.....
A back to basics campaign, but would anybody actually buy it? You've got to think the current designs of high end coaches didn't just happen, rather they were targeted toward the biggest buying audience. Deleting the glitz probably wouldn't save much money but it would put the coach, appearance wise, in competition with lower end models and the used Foretravel market. I ran into this building spec houses years ago. The people who wanted a small well built house came in droves but few could qualify and appraisals were always an issue due to lack of gross sq. footage. It's so much cheaper, per square foot to build large and snazzy than small and simple. They've all got the same systems, large or small and there's an inescapable fixed cost regardless of finish. A lot of the fancy interior work is probably much less expensive than building a solid wood interior, less skilled trades, cnc fabrication etc. One can look at the powerboat market and see the same thing happening with canbus electronics, fly by wire pod type propulsion, joystick controls, outrageous interiors,sellin the sizzle not the steak.
Good points!
I guess I'd just love to see them maybe bring back the 270 or 295 simplify and keep the options to a minimum. I know flash sells, but I think quality could work too. It would require education and an east coast presence.
Michelle hit the nail on the head. New FT's are custom coaches, they are not production line coaches. FOT builds a few specs to try things out but for the most part, each coach is built for someone, namely around the IH-45's. I've been in several IH-45's in the past year while visiting FOT. Most of these were custom for a specific customer. Some are flashy, but the ones I've been in have been very modest and not flashy at all.
Yes technology keeps them expensive and there will be issues with them as there is more and more technology added, but that is what the market is asking for.
Greg has a great handle on how many coaches need to be produced each year to be profitable. Does Newell have an entry level coach? Does Marathon or Liberty?
What you all need to understand is that Foretravel has moved out from the masses and into the true luxury market. They do not need to build an entry level coach. Those would be used coaches.
I also suspect you will see the Nimbus line go away and FOT will end up with the Phenix and the IH-45. But that's just my thoughts.
Hey SteveB2, Ben and I along with Don and Nancy Sprouse hosted the May Foretravel rally at Mayberry campground. It is good to know that our coaches do make a positive impression on our fellow campers. Good Luck with your Foretravel shopping and when you find one, be sure to join the Motorcade club and come to our rallys. We have a great time and you learn so much about your coaches.
Bonnie Harris
1999 U320 40' with slide
Glad to see that some of my opinions are actually in line with others. Talking of an east coast outlet, how about a NW Canda one?? Were we live (and Greg in Peachland too) must be the highest ownership per capita of anywere. I will bet that 1 in 5 people own an RV and boats not far behind. Newmar in town is selling all of their models in large numbers (and 2 nd hands too) and FOT can easily out show those models for quality as we all know. There is/was a FT outlet in Spokane but most new owners buy local so that they never know what a Foretravel is, but if I drive to town or whatever I can gaurantee I will have a few guys wanting to know all about it when I come out a store.
I personally believe if FOT had a rep in this valley, many would sell. We are the holiday/camping place in BC with beatifull lakes/mtns and weather, a perfect fit!! There are 3 main rv parks here with must be around 500 spaces and probably not more than a dozen spaces vacant, year in year out.If I had the money I would buy every used one for sale in the USA and bring them here to market. They would be gone in an instant and FT are one of the few manufactures that Canadian Govt allow in every model with no problem. You cannot do that with a Prevost etc.
Maybe I should talk to Lyle???
John H ( a happy FT owner)
So you're the one's to blame! :D
FWIW, I called Mark today for help on a leveling issue. What he described was not what I had. I told him that my 95 was an antique and his comeback was that everything before 95 was antique. I am glad they still support us OLDER owners cause we would be in a world of hurt without it < and the support of this forum.
Gary B
Yes, I think there is room for a custom top end coach. I also think there might be room for a 270 style coach or a 320 style coach with two floor plans and the same engine but not the electronics. I think they did that with the 38 footer two slide coaches and I wonder how those sold. Maybe I am all wet but I think that FT is leaving a lot of sales on the table. They have no presence any longer outside of TX and that has to hurt them a bunch.
Today with my regulator problem I could get little help from Foretravel. Did talk to Mark and he tried to help but no resolution of the problem. Always put on hold with leave a message and we will call you back including the Parts Dept.. No call backs got all the info from MOT as they are there and will talk to you and give you advice. Guess where my next service will go. DAN
Ever think just maybe some of us need to rethink what it is that we really want in a RV, or step up to a coach, some folks will only be happy in a full bus conversion, and some will be happy in a nice Foretravel, and some in a Winnebago or what ever.
Of course some will never be happy with anything.
Me, I feel Foretravel is savy enough to have a clue as to what will meet the market they are going after. Clearly they are not looking at taking over the Winnebago market. I am not in a rush to change their model nor bash them, I can wait to see what happens, clearly some of us will be wrong and some will be right, until then I am going to relax.
Dave M
And perhaps something to consider, rather than change a working business model, there appears to be evidence from the forum that another, untapped market exists which might allow expansion beyond the current model. There are clearly customers for custom coaches; is there another business opportunity which could be grown in building a "classic", not-so-custom FT? It sounds like there could be a second target market
if the numbers work.
Michelle
Dave, you are right about not always being happy but if I can see that an Essex which is inferior to the FT is selling 1000 Units at over 700K then there is a market that FT is missing. The Nimbus is in that price range yet they are not selling 1000 coaches across all their units.
Dealers and distribution, vs. virtually none. Coaches need to be "out in public eye" to get those volumes.
$700,000,000 in annual sales of these coaches? Haven't looked at any reference material, seems high, but that is what my calculator says 1000 coaches at $700,000 comes up to
Newmar is privately held so annual sales figures are not available. I suspect $700,000,000 in annual revenue might be a bit overstated!
The manufacturer (Newmar) does not get to see all the $700,000. There are other marketing/distribution/dealer costs involved to sell that many units. Besides, Newmar also makes high end fifth wheels as well as other gas and diesel motorhomes. The top line is likely much greater that $700 million in total.
Peter
I was talking total sales of one unit sine they started making it. It came out about the same time the Nimbus and Phenix came out. It went thru the same market and it's parent company is still in business. I am saying if Newmar can sell 1000 units of one type why can't Foretravel. The used to sell over 300 units a year and that is about what Newmar is doing with there Essex. It is and has been the same price as the Nimbus. I remember FT had five or six units built and ready to go. One rally I went to, they sold five new ones. Born free had a rally and sold over fifty units in a weekend. They need to look at what they are doing and adjust something is my point.
Point taken. And you're right. Maybe the management won't pull the trigger due to economic pessimism????
A couple of points.
We had never heard of a Foretravel when we started looking for a class A. It was a chance meeting with the "Two Hams in a Can" (Jeff & Suzanne) that introduced us to them. Since buying our Foretravel we have shown it to several people all of whom have been very impressed, even the hard bitten types at dealerships! Ergo Foretravel has a market out there that does not know about them. Advertise in the right places guys!
Have a network of dealers with good service departments. This might be the hardest one to do.
I have called the factory for advise and parts a couple of times and James and the parts people have always been excellent.
Make a low tech coach that is still Foretravel quality and advertise it. If you want people to move up they have to start somewhere and not everyone will buy a used coach.
The fact that besides the factory there is such an industry built around their products in Nacadoches is quite striking. MOT, Extreme, Encore and more.
Keith
I think FT knows there target market, and as much as we all talk about a different market,ie the entry level market, I suspect the numbers are just not profitable. FT's target market are the folks who are either the Newell or provost buyers that do not want to spend $1.8 to over $2 mill for a coach. The IH45 is every bit equal to a Newell and a very close second to a provost conversion at a lower cost and totally custom.
I think Greg has this market figured out. He can make more profit producing lesser number of coaches for more money than building on volume and lesser quality.
A Foretravel and a Newmar do not compete. A FT is a much more higher end coach
Had a good chit chat with Lyle Reed , and mentioned about the hints of Foretravel being for sale . His reply "Is not , has not and have no plans to do so . " "this is all news to me ". So just maybe ,they might be able to make it without food stamps or a brain transplant .WOW ---------- Brad Metzger
That is great news then. I am happy it is not for sale but I doubt they would tell us if it was. I still think if Newmar can sell 1000 units over 700K than FT can sell the same number or more. They need their factory stores and participation in the marketplace. They pulled way back during the recession. They also said they would do the NEwell model. Well Newell has two sales centers and just added David Robinson as well. So, they are a bit behind the curve I would think. IT is a market out there that has people and there are buyers who just do not know FT and the quality and they need to tap it. You can not grow selling 30 coaches or so a year. Your remodel business will carry you only so far. As the number of units gets less and less. They approached the CC guys in TX but that seems to have gone nowhere and in fact they held a rally out of state when FT was going to attend. Whether that was bad blood or poor planing on CC peoples part I have no idea. They talked about expanding their market for buyers by approaching CC Texas group. I think they should expand their market across the US. THe economy is due another pullback and oil is up again. We will see 5 and 6 buck fuel again and that will hurt the Large segment again. Look at Monoco they retooled and are producing the Vesta a 32 foot lighter unit that gets good fuel milage and is nicely built. Not that FT should go that way but they might have a few Nimbus and Phenix coaches around the country for sale. They are picking up that dealer in Dallas area but the TN location was one of their most profitable ones. Thousands of people heading to the Smokies passed it every time. I knwo of a few friends who went in for service adn bought a new coach as it was sitting there. I think there is still a market for a non custom simple coach.
We are not going to solve this or even all agree. It is FT decision and this all came about from looking at new coaches and seeing with my own eyes the competition. If an inferior unit can sell 1000 units and make a profit then I figure that they should look at something. I know that it takes ust about as much work and time to do a Nimbus as a IH. The IH is an issue out east with low bridges more common then the rest of the country. I saw on on the way to lancaster on the skyline drive etc. I want FT to grow and survive. I wanted to bring to light my observations looking at new newells and Essexs and IHs. Newell is custom as it Liberty. The bus crowd will always want a bus for other reasons than price that is why a new Liberty is 2.5 million. They have 2 million miles chassis and that could be overkill for the avg MH buyer too.
Newell is their closest competition and they have a different look inside and a few other bells and whistles but are closer in price than many think. I figure FT is doing what they have to do but maybe thinking outside the box might be interesting. too. Oh well, we will not solve it here and we do not own the company. it has been a very interesting discussion though.
That's one I don't understand. Not the idea of having a dealer in the Dallas area but the particular one they chose. We live in the DFW area and have never heard of that outfit.
Not according to their website. They have exited the towable business The Future of Newmar Towable Products (http://newmarcorp.com/towable-products)
That is definitely an issue - our (2nd hand knowledge) experience with non-FT dealers (meaning those that sell new coaches) is that service is a distant second to selling new coaches. We have several friends who have Tiffin products who book appointments at the factory in Red Bay, AL up to 11 months in advance because they won't let their selling dealers touch their coach. And one of those who took theirs in to the selling dealer for warranty service ended up in Red Bay to have the dealer's work "repaired".
We are glad to have the skilled techs at FOT and MOT for service. It would be nice to have the same quality outside of Texas.
-M
FT used to have skilled service outside of TX. IN fact that might be the way to increase sales. Say we built it and we will service it for you. There is a service center within a days drive...
A while back I asked the group to suggest other class A brands that I could recommend to a friend that was looking to buy his first coach. Well, he bought a Country Coach and a big factor in that decision was the distance from his home (the NW) to Nac. Time will tell if he made the right decision.
FT had a sales and service facility in San Antonio Fl. in the winter time you could not get in there as the people on the East Coast had it booked up, this Factory Store was supposed to be one of the most profitable.
Not going to try to irritate any of you as you're all intelligent having owned or now own a FT. Having said that...go buy a Born Free or Newmar of Country Coach...They all have their market. I'm glad I was able to get a '96 U295 for the price I did seven years ago and consider each repair/upgrade as an investment in future happy RVing. We've talked about the problem with our retirement income and what if we needed to buy another coach and just don't know what we'd do. when you have owned a FT where could you go to get the quality and hand-holding of the factory or this forum? Keep in mind that the "entry level" FT is not for somebody looking to do a weekend here and there and then a couple of weeks in the summer with the kids. No coach claims to be for "full-time" living but FT comes very close. Seven years of full-time living and we're still on the road with a bunch of miles and very happy about it. I have no complaints about the IH or any of the new FTs. They sure are pretty, but many are amazed with our 16-year-old coach. I see people driving around WalMart "shopping" for the over-night RVs and they always take a couple of exra trips around our FT! I think that says something. With the monied boomers coming into the market now and in the future I think FT will have a very happy future.
I already own a born free in fact I have purchased two new ones over the last 4 years. They make a wonderful coach and many FT owners downsize into one. At rally I was at 20 percent of the owners were previous FT owners.
In fact that's the dealer I initially stopped in to see my 1st Foretravel. Ron Augustadt was the sales rep and a good one at that.
Peter
ps. We sometimes forget the reason we all purchased a Foretravel. They're built to last, well powered and are very comfortable to drive.
Ron was working at Lazydays in 2005 when I met him and introduced me to Foretravels Within 6 months I was buying a Felix Matthieu's consigned 93 U280 from David Robertson's and his new employee Lance at MOT (where Ron had directed me).
Looks like with all the unused talent lurking here, with the brilliant methods for making Foretravel competitive, some of you would gladly head on down to Foretravel and tell them just how to run their company in a profitable manor. Surely they would appreciate the help. Soon after Foretravel coach's would be thick on the highways.
Sounds simple simple doesn't it. Like the old saying, "Talk is cheap"
FWIW
Dave M
Dave M,
I guess you know very well what it's all about...blood, sweat & tears; and success is made up of two elements; 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
Peter
Not to mention, "right place at the right time". Fortune 500 corporations have been started because the first choice didn't respond quickly enough...
Craig
As Foretravel owners I think we all want to have a company that is healthy and able to back the product that many of us love and enjoy. I'm not going to pretend that I know what is best for Foretravel's business future. I do however have concerns with what I understand is the current business model.
As I understand it, and I may be way off, Foretravel has been in business for over 45 years. I think I read somewhere that over the life of the company they have produced 17,000 coaches give or take 1000 or so. If this is anywhere near correct that would be just under or around 400 coaches a year as an annual average. This next part is me doing some guess work.
Last October when we were in Nac picking up our coach Paul Tinkle said that they had, at that time sold 17 IH45's. I think 2011 was the first year for the IH45. Add the few Phenix and Nimbus' and I'm guessing they are doing in the neighborhood of 50 coaches a year, and this may be a high estimate??
As this is my understanding as rudimentary as it is, here is my concern. The cost of a new coach is out of reach for me, and I don't think that will ever change. But I do dream of a newer coach someday, and with the reduced production levels I'm afraid that my choices will be very limited if not completely unavailable.
On the other hand, my 2004 U320 is a quality coach, therefore if I choose to keep it long term I can do upgrades here and there in order to satisfy my craving for new shinny stuff. In the long run that would be the most economical route, and likely the way I go. In this case I want the Foretravel factory to be there to support me in these efforts.
Owning a Foretravel is a source of pride for me and I think other owners share this pride. Having the Foretravel brand healthy and strong supports my belief that Foretravel is one of if not the best brand in the Motorhome industry. With the limited production they are doing at this time it makes me question their ability to support the companies future. I'm going to go ahead and guess they know what they are doing and are taking the company in the direction it needs to go. I sure hope so......
There are over 17,000 MC member numbers issued, but that's not how many coaches have been produced. I think the build numbers are more accurate, which is 6567 if the most recent one listed on the FOT site is the latest and greatest.
-M
I read the 17,000 number somewhere and I thought that might be high. 6567 would mean they've averaged around 150 per year. With the economic down turn, 50ish coaches a year may not be a low number after all. I'm hopeful that if/when the economy ticks up, that Foretravel's production levels follow suit.
In 99-2000 they hit their high with 300 or so coaches being built. THey did about 75 the first year they had the phenix and nimbus I think. I do not think they have met those numbers yet. I heard about 20-30 a year.... Dave, you hit the nail on the head I think. The MC numbers show the number of times coaches have turned over and new people have purchased a coach but it does not indicate those who have done repeat purchases. I have a friend who is on number 14. It is his last though due to age I would say not desire. I am on my third coach but noticed the issue you brought up when I started looking at coaches again.
Supply vs. demand. The depreciation curve is destined to flatten out as more people like David seek newer coaches. Upgrades will probably separate winners from losers.
And as people buy newer coaches those of us who are just getting ready to buy the first one will find that there are still some older coaches available. Since the coaches got better each year they are lasting longer, so there ought to be plenty to go around.
Thanks to those who are able to buy the new coaches, since you are supplying the used ones that most of us have to buy because we can't afford the new ones. You also keep the factory in business, which keeps people working. Seriously, thank you.