Folks, last night a friend had his coach go up in flames from his Norcold refrigerator. He had the recalls and the recalls on the recalls implemented. The bottom line- if you have one of these- its not "if" but when it will incinerate your coach. Fortunately, his smoke alarm worked and he and his dog, wallet, and him standing outside in his underware survived. Also fortunate- his wife was at another location. The coach burned from kitchen forward.
I went out and checked my smoke detector. It didn't work. I'll be replacing that and adding another- even though I have a Dometic. When that Dometic goes out, a Whirlpool residential will go in its place. This is not an issue to be taken lightly. Lots of documentation on this thru-out the forums.
And not just on this forum. I'm with Ernie on this one - replacing the refrigerator with a residential one is first on our list of upgrades for whatever Foretravel we end up with.
I know I am beating the drum again but all RV fridge installations are death traps in my opinion. A day with $40 worth of Hardy Backerboard can make any RV fridge installation safe. I would never think about leaving a pet or family member alone in a motorhome with a RV refrigerator turned on. It's Russian roulette and not if but only a matter of time until it happens.
I have seen a lot of fatalities in my firefighting career so I don't speak lightly about this subject. Burns are worse than you can imagine.
Pierce
I could search for the posts but perhaps another run through of what can be done to make them safe or safer would be appreciated.
Please elaborate on how this can be done?
Dwayne,
OK, here is my Picasa album with four photos of the U300 fridge enclosure modifications: Google+ (https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/100921130470085833749/albums/5794180000392973681)
I went to Home Depot and bought 4 or 5 1/4" sheets of Hardie Backerboard. Also bought a tube of urethane sealant plus drywall screws, a sharp box cutter type tool to scribe it and then bend it until it breaks along the scribed line. A few wire clamps to organize the wires also comes in handy.
Never use a table saw as the Hardie board is a fiber cement product and will make a ton of nasty dust. Simple scribing along a straight edge and then bending is an excellent way to make the correct sized panels. I covered every possible area with the board leaving only the outside fiberglass deflector original. The OEM wiring was like a sea of snakes so I neatened it up a bit. I also had a bit of dry rot around the outside door so I installed several new wood supports. The bottom floor was also a bit weak so I reinforced it before installing the backerboard. The two wooden strips shown were to center the fridge in the opening. It took me two days to do the whole thing but that included several hours replacing the wood around the outside access door and the floor as well as organizing the wiring.
Sure, an automatic fire extinguisher could have been installed but it could fail to work correctly. The cement board insures that during a fire of 30 to 60 seconds, any combustible materials are isolated from the heat and flame.
The amount of ammonia in the system is not great but with lint, rodent nests, and the luan wood siding, a fire of more than a few seconds could spread to the thin luan.
There are almost always RVs on ebay that have suffered refrigerator fires. The toxic smoke from the fire is usually the killer here with direct flame to skin contact the exception.
If anyone thinks this happens to the "other guy", here are photos of RV reefer fires in many different brands of RVs. Makes a believer out of the viewer: RV Appraisals & Investigations of America (http://www.rvappraisals.com/gallery/fire-investigations.htm)
Pierce
I should have added that just before we bought our U300, the Dometic fridge failed with a leak of ammonia into the vehicle interior while it was occupied. The owner immediately smelled it and got out OK. It did not catch fire. I installed a new Norcold (not a recalled model) after making the above modifications to the enclosure. Somewhere around 20 years seems to be the average lifespan for the absorption refrigerators.
Pierce
Here's what MY Foretravel looked like after a refrigerator fire.
You can't see the 5'X6' hole in the roof over the refrigerator area. You also can't see the smoke damage and the melted ceiling insulation in the entire middle of the coach and part of the Bathroom. You also can't see the completely melted Fantastic Fan assembly in the Bathroom, or the melted Power Watch monitors across from the refrigerator, or the charred walnut top door to the pantry across from the refrigerator. And only I know about the time and aggravation, not to mention MONEY, that has gone into the coach to bring it back.
There is NO good reason to EVER install a RV/ammonia type refrigeration system in ANYTHING!
Yikes! The refrigerator upgrade has been on my do-list for a while... but I think I'll bump it up a few notches.
Craig
My experience has been ten to fifteen years before absorption cooling units fail. My 1996 fridge failed in January at circa 16 years. Very few last 20 years and I know of a rebuilt double coil cooling unit which failed in about one year (yes one year). The double coil units in our Foretravels are paricularly difficult to clean and often have limited life when they are rebuilt. I paid more money to replaced with a completely new cooling unit.
The cooling unit on our Dometic refrigerator failed in November, 2011. The coach is a 1997 model. It looked like the refrigerator was original equipment. To the best of my knowledge, the refrigerator stayed on most of the time from 1997 to 2011. It would have been running on electricity most of the time.
The failure occurred while we were driving and the refrigerator was operating on propane. We smelled ammonia inside the coach a couple of times over the period of about one hour. The odor was faint and I dismissed it as an external source the first time I noticed it. The failure appeared to be a rupture of the sealed cooling unit near the propane flame and electric heating element. There was a yellow residue in the area. Fortunately, there was no fire, damage, or personal injury.
I kept the refrigerator and replaced the cooling unit with a new one from RV Cooling Unit Warehouse LLC Home Page (http://www.rvcoolingunit.net/servlet/StoreFront).
Wyatt,
Your math is better than mine. We picked ours up in 2009 and the reefer failed before that so figuring 2008 and a 1993 model, that's about 15 years. Guess I need a math 101 review. Guess it's California crow tonight.
Pierce
Our first TT had a refer fire - fortunately the fire was caught just after it had started so the damage was to just the refer and the surround. Insurance took care of everything including a new model Dometic. Even though we currently have a gas-electric refer I can assure you that I will never buy another - one fire is one too many.
Fifteen year lifespan means I'm living on borrowed time. The thing is my refrigerator works perfectly, rock hard ice in the freezer and perfect refrig temps on the other side, never run it above level 3 even in the broiling Texas heat. So, the question I have is, does anyone know what the failure mode is? Do the lines corrode from the outside and fail, is vibration and metal fatigue an issue? Is there a particular area in the sealed system that bears inspection, any way to determine if failure is imminent?
I truly hate the thought of giving up the propane operation but I hate the thought of burning the coach, and possibly me and mine more. If the fifteen year lifespan is a given then I have a decision to make...new cooling unit or solar panels, more batteries and a domestic unit. On that subject, has anyone installed an inverter based compressor type unit? Variable compressor speed based on load rather than full on then off like the majority of compressor type refrigs. High efficiency.
Chuck
Its my understanding that most refrigerator fires are caused by rusting penetrating the cooling coils allow the ammonia to leak and be ignited by the gas burner. If so, frequent inspection of the coils is a must.
Does anyone else know of an RV refrigerator fire caused by another reason?
My 1997 U295 36ft got a new Dometic 4 years ago in Nac by MOT after the original Dometic leaked ammonia. The new Dometic didn't work that well.
best, paul
On my 88, there was strong ammonia smell in refrigerator, rust was from outside in, could not be inspected as it was on part of coils buried in unit. I was told rust related to cycles between usage and moisture trapped. For that reason I have mine plugged in and run year around on electric, leave on gas the few nights not plugged in. Will go to residential when this unit fails
On my 88, there was strong ammonia smell in refrigerator, rust was from outside in, could not be inspected as it was on part of coils buried in unit. I was told rust related to cycles between usage and moisture trapped. For that reason I have mine plugged in and run year around on electric, leave on gas the few nights not plugged in. Will go to residential when this unit fails
I was not able to get mine to work on electric while driving. Does it take running the generator?
best, paul
Mine is usually only on propane while driving. All other times on electric. I think I will get some blue ice and put it in the fridge when starting out and use the thing like a cooler until I get where I'm going.
Ours, a Dometic 2-way, operates on electric only when the generator is running or we are connected to shore power. It does requires 12VDC for control circuits whether operating on electric or gas. The refrigerator continues to receive 12VDC from the house batteries even when the 12VDC house "master" switch near the entry door is in the "off" position.
When we drive, or park without hookups, the refrigerator operates on propane.
When filling the propane tank, it is prudent (and required by safety rules) to turn off the refrigerator at the front panel of the refrigerator.
I know that there are many SOB motorhomes that have been converted to household type 120v electric 120v electric refrigerator w/ice & water in door w/ice & water in door and those who converted to them are apparently quite happy. They have even found them more than adequate for boondocking. And Tiffin is offering residential refrigerator in new models and Foretravel is in the new IH45.
But don't know of any using a Variable compressor speed based on load. They are well enough insulated that they don't appear to need that.
Why is this? With the engine running, and the inverter on, the refrigerator should be able to get AC.
best, paul
The Bosch refrigerator I installed has no problem running on the inverter when sitting or when the Motorhome is being driven with the alternator powering the inverter. It draws a surprisingly light load. You can also set the temp for the freezer and the refrigerator to a higher temp when you are driving or boon-docking so the compressor does not cycle as much. The ice maker can also be turned off easily to reduce power consumption if that is a issue.
The fire my coach incurred was NOT from a ammonia leak but was from a mouse building a nest in the refrigerator vent near the gas flame.
The fire apparently climbed directly up the vent tube through the roof. I think this is the natural flame path for a refrigerator fire with the flame seeking the fastest path to air. I'm not sure how much a cement backer board enclosure would protect from a flame path straight to the roof and then spilling out from the top of the refrigerator compartment and spreading out across the inside roof seeking oxygen at the fan above the cook-top and the vent fan in the bathroom, all very close to the refrigerator.
These details were reported to me by the previous owner who owned the coach when the fire occurred.
Well shoot. That would seem to end the possibility of inspecting and maintaining to prevent corrosion. All in all though, it's given quite a few years of good service.
The inverter scheme is about improving efficiency (lower electrical usage) rather than capacity. Instead of the compressor starting up under full load with a high amperage start, the speed of the compressor is infinitely variable depending on load. Kind of like the little EU 1000 Honda generator which, when the load is light will run at a low speed as compared to the standard gas generator which runs full bore engine speed regardless of load. I see these units are sold overseas and would seem to be a natural for solar powered ops.
Interestingly enough, inverter based air conditioners are readily available. I expect this will be the next evolution in RV air conditioning if there is ever any improvement over the old standard. One of these units with a high SEER rating could make running on batteries feasible.
Chuck
As long as the breaker for the refrigerator outlet is wired in the inverter circuit it should work on electric when the inverter is on. My guess is the refrigerator outlet is not wired into the inverter circuit.
Roland
Roland
In my former SOB I had an absorption fridge. It seemed ok but in my 06 all electric Phenix I LOVE my residential fridge. I can run it on my inverters when I need to and since my house batts are charged while driving there is no issue of running the batts down. Of course I live in South Louisiana so it is HOT and I need my roof air most of the time so the genny is on most of the time. But when traveling in the winter and when we were up in Yellowstone last yr the fridge did just fine with no genny on.
The refrigerator, like the air conditioners, is normally wired to run on shore power or generator. It is not wired to run on the inverter. This was the practice on older coaches that had gas/electric refrigerators. Residential style refrigerators will be wired differently.
It is my understanding that some older coaches have an outlet behind the refrigerator that is supplied by the inverter. That outlet would be for an ice maker. If the refrigerator were plugged to that outlet, rather than the "standard" refrigerator outlet, it would run on the inverter.
We have chosen to keep the "old" (1997) systems so far. They serve our needs. As things require repair or upgrade, and technology changes, our choices will change.
Lon,
The backer board should keep the flames off the ceiling area and before they can attack the fiberglas roof vent, the rodent nest will have burned. The amount of material in the nest can't sustain combustion for more than 30 seconds or so. The ceiling of the fridge compartment in our coach was the carpet material used for the headliner and would have caught fire quickly. There is also wood up there. The rodent nest in your coach must have spread to the luan and sustained combustion long enough for the fire to spread to the ceiling. Another reason to occasionally take a look in the access door. I was also thinking of replacing the roof vent with an aluminum type.
Pierce
I had to have the cooling unit replaced on the refrigerator in my 1988 SOB after about 15 years. There was a strong ammonia smell on the outside, and it had been in storage with the refrigerator turned off.
In almost 30 years of RVing, I've never seen a nest of any sort (mouse, bird, insect) in the refrigerator (or water heater or furnace for that matter) burner or flue area.
Paul Smith
Your refer 120VAC supply is proabably the same as mine was from the factory.
Open the outside access door to the refer and you should see two duplex recepticles (like the thing on the wall you plug your toaster cord into). One will be brown, labelled "refridgerator" and it is connected to the main 120VAC panel which is supplied power from the genset or shore (if the breaker is on). The other is white, labelled "icemaker" and it provides power from the inverter panel (if the breaker is on). Plug your fridge into the "icemaker" recepticle to run from inverter.
I found this setup inconvenient, so I changed the wiring to have just one duplex recepticle behind the fridge which can be supplied power from genset, shore, or inverter by making changes at the main 120VAC power panel. Both refer and icemaker are plugged into this one duplex recepticle.
For those of you considering using a residential refer and running off solar. I have a friend who runs a chest freezer using four golf cart batteries and one 135 watt panel. This setup is in an outside sun clothe room in the California desert and runs all year, even in 120 degrees.
The freezer is made by SunDanzer and has a very efficient 12v compressor.
Sunfrost makes similar refers and freezers which are very efficient and target folks who are off the grid. Sunfrost refers use about 2/3 as many watts as a standard residential refer. This is how I would convert to a compressor refer. Much higher cost than a refer from Lowes, limited selection and sizes, but very efficient and high quality, with very long life.
Likely Danfoss compressors
Sunfrost makes similar refers and freezers which are very efficient and target folks who are off the grid. Sunfrost refers use about 2/3 as many watts as a standard residential refer. This is how I would convert to a compressor refer. Much higher cost than a refer from Lowes, limited selection and sizes, but very efficient and high quality, with very long life.
And they make them for 12v, too!
< http://www.thenaturalabode.com/house_appliances/energy_star_refrigerators.htm?gclid=CJeG66364rICFWThQgodsFwAVw#cabinets >
best, paul
After reading some of the refrigerator fire accounts, I got to wondering if the two Valterra refrigerator fans (Valterra A10-2618VP FridgeCool 12 Volt Exhaust Fan) that I installed might make a fire worse by increasing the draft up through the refrigerator opening. And they might make any Halon fire extinguisher less effective for the same reason. Does anyone have any thoughts on this possible problem?
One possible way around this problem might be to install an Atwood thermal fuse (Atwood Thermostat Cut-Off Kit, #93866 (http://www.easternmarine.com/atwood-thermostat-cut-off-kit-93866)) in the fan circuit. These thermal fuses are designed to turn off the water heater in case of a fire (190 degrees).
George
There are also offerings that are 120VAC/12V from Nova Kool and Vitrifrigo that are dimensionally more friendly to our 36' U270 which doesn't have room for a 34.5" fridge cabinet. I believe these use Danfoss compressors and are pretty common on boats. Cost wise, a bit less than a new Dometic or Norcold would be for the size that will fit our coach. I think this may be our upgrade path as we often will be staying at Thousand Trails parks and using their electricty for free. I can't imagine it would make sense to have only the 120VAC residential option as that would entail (once we have a PV system) of using solar to charge the house batteries and then the inverter/converter combo to run it while boondocking. Having the 12VDC opion alone would mean having to run the inverter more to make use of park power. I am still just in the research stages though, so perhaps that will change. Cost wise, the Lowes opion is the most attractive, followed by installing a new Amish cooling unit in our old refer (and then having to put up with the fire hazard and the need for level operation). The Amish option does sound somewhat attractive considering their reputation for quality control and the thicker walled tubing they use as regards the longevity and fire issue. Also, I would definetly take a cue from Pierce and install the Hardi Backer (as well as a fire suppression system) while doing the change over. Decisions... Oh well, what is the fun in knowing it all?
Don
Have you looked into what a typical Nova Kool or Vitrifrigo cost?
It gets close to 2K... the best price for the Nova Kool 9.1 cubic foot AC/DC model I have come across is $1700 here Nova Kool RFU9000 9.1 cu.ft (258 liters) Two Door Upright Refrigerator/Freezer (http://www.solarhome.org/novakoolrfu900091cuft258literstwodooruprightrefrigeratorfreezeracdc.aspx)
This is a unit that will fit in the space we have... Plusses: Size, quiet (reportedly), 120VAC/12VDC operation. Minuses: Cost, vents out the front, current draw 5.5 amps
Vitrifrigo has a few models of similar cost and size... still looking, we are a long way from pulling the trigger on this idea! I am certainly open to hearing others thoughts on this! The cost is quite similar to what CW and other places have on the Dometic or Norcolds as I recall. I would much rather have the Amish cooling unit upgrade than get a newer version of what we have. Luckily, our fridge was working well when I last had power to the coach (shore power and batteries have been disconnected for all of the welding I have been doing on the basement rebuild project for a long while now... too long by any measure! However, my awareness of the fire potential has me wanting to address this sooner rather than later.
Don
How about just retrofitting the cold plates and compressor into the existing refrigerator box? I've seen the Danfoss kit sold for this purpose but don't recall the cost. Probably about the same as buying a whole new unit.
Chuck
George has a point about any fans that have been installed. They would accelerate any fire so would be good to install a fuseable link to shut them down.
I did not mention that when all the backer board has been installed, rodents no longer have access to the compartment and there is no nesting material there even if they did.
Pierce
Thanks, Wyatt.
These specs are pretty interesting:
Sun Frost Refrigerator specifications (http://www.sunfrost.com/refrigerator_specs.html)
The width of an R12 Refrigerator/Freezer at 34.5in is about 2in less than my Dometic and its height is about 14in less than my Dometic at 43.5in. So there's the possibility of a nice storage area overhead.
Even more interesting, at 70F it wants only 13.5amp hrs/day and only 23 amp hrs/day at 90F.
Its depth is 27.75in which might be about as much room left after the Dometic is out.
And at $2400 for the AC version it's a steal ;o)
It looks interesting to me.
I just noticed the amp hrs above are for 12v. 0.29 kwhrs and 0.47 kwhs for 120v
best, paul
One wonders what the depth is w/o the doors and the 'top hat'. For an earlier coach like mine the windshield would have to come out to pass any one of these through. I kind of likes the RF16...
Even when my Dometic was replaceable it was right at 3K...
A note says 3.75 in is needed to open the doors. This could mean the depth w/o doors is 24 in. I sent an email asking about this.
My side windows have a vertical opening of 25.5 in with the window in. But the entire window would have to be removed to allow the 34.5 in width in.
My driver's window is about 33 by 38. So removing it could work.
best, paul
Sun Frost just confirmed to me that the depth is 24 in w/o the doors.
And yes, the RF16 is tempting. But that takes out the cabinets under the Dometic. Plus I seem to recall there are some electrical?, or some such, items in the back of these cabinets. If so, I wonder how high that would raise the refrigerator off the floor. In my space there is a light barrier about 22 in back from the face of the Dometic.
best, paul
Paul,
Once I had the old Dometic out, I had to rebuild the refrigerator floor area to take the flat bottom Norcold. A chop saw, screw gun and a little time made the flat area seen the the photos. I still have the bottom compartment with the vac in it plus the new Norcold is larger than the Dometic it replaced.
Pierce
In my case, with the Sun Frost 3.75 in thick door off, and the entrance screen door removed, the now 22 in deep refrigerator would easily go thru the front door.
best, paul
I would probably build a base out of 4" X 4" posts. Little bit of added weight, but easy to anchor...
Exterior depth was 27.75 on all - so it would be 24" which would fit my 95 (barely)
I just received a message from a member that my album was locked. Apologies.
Here are the four photos as attachments.
Pierce