I recently purchased a 1998 U270 34' with 1 propane furnace and was wondering what the outside temperature can be and yet remain comfortable?
Consumer RV says 30 degrees. And that seems like it is wrong. I have been in 36 degrees and was quite warm and comfortable. Thanks for all your assistance John
John,
The exhaust air from the propane furnace is very warm to plain hot. So if you have propane and 12 volts in abundance, give North Dakota a visit this winter.
Like Rudy said, you need lots of 12VDC to run the furnace fan. We also have the 34' U270 and have camped in 20F temps and felt just fine (plugged in to 30 amp service). We usually just run the heat strips in the A/C units and are just fine to about 30F, then have to run the propane furnace to be toasty warm.
Peter
We have a U300, 40' and have stayed in it at 7 degrees for a low and under 10 degrees for almost a week with no problems. This was with no supplemental heat in the bays an using both the heat strip in the AC units and the propane furnaces. DJ Stevens has probably spent more time in the cold weather than anyone I know so he can probably share the most reliable info on how low you can go.
Here is more information that you probably want. You can use it if you have trouble falling asleep. :P
I expect that one furnace in a post 1997 34' FT would do fine to lows around 10F. If it gets colder, supplement with electric heat as necessary.
We spent about four days at temps from about -5 to 10F in Billings, MT, between Christmas and New Year's Day. We did fine using two propane furnaces in the 36' U295. We burned about four gallons of propane per day. We were hooked to 50A service, but did not use the heat strips in the roof air units. I don't think we used electric heaters in the living quarters, but I don't recall for sure. We kept window blinds closed, but did not put extra insulation in windows, exhaust vents, or skylight in the bathroom. I did put a ceramic heater in the bay where the electric line enters the coach. Issues there could be mitigated with some insulation on the floor of the compartment.
I keep remote reading thermometers in the bays to monitor temperatures. The temperatures vary a lot from the top to the bottom of the bays. Small ceramic heaters or light bulbs will help protect water lines in the bays. I think a fan to circulate air in the bays with water lines would protect against cold spots that could cause damage.
We carry an electric water hose and use it in subfreezing weather. We choose campgrounds with all season water supplies when we stop for more than one night.
When we travel in winter, we try always to be prepared to "hunker down" in boondocking mode for at least four days. We stay near roads that will be plowed in case of snow. On one trip in our SOB coach, we made some bad decisions and found ourselves fleeing blizzards because the coach didn't have sufficient resources for stopping long enough to let a blizzard pass by us. We bought the FT and have found it has resources to keep us safe and comfortable for several days in temperatures below 10F.
We travel in the late fall/winter because that is one of the good times to visit family who live in Missouri and Montana. We have made three such excursions in DP coaches. The one in the SOB was too much of a "thrilling adventure." Two trips in the FT have been fun adventures. It's comforting to know that roads are usually cleared quickly and we can wait in FT comfort for that to happen.
I installed a vent less propane heater behind the passenger seat (removed the chair). Keeps the front of the coach toasty. Have to run the furnaces to keep the bays from freezing if it gets too cold. Had a ventless propane heater in the fifth wheel and would not be without one. Would have installed a vent less propane ceramic brick heater, but with our hairy dog didn't seem like a good idea.
Roland
Cold is a realitive term to some folk. We have spent some time in our coach where the temps are in the low teens at night 30s during the day, if you don't mind hearing the propane furnaces roar most of the time and sitting around dressed like an eskimo, I guess it's ok. Myself if it starts getting into the low 30s for very long I'm out of there, thats what Key West is for. Of course being from Fla 40 is cold to me. If you do spend time in very cold conditions make sure to keep your engine batts charged with the boost SW and make sure your block heater is in working condition, makes for a much happier starting when it's time to leave.
I have spent time in cold wether too. In my 99 270 there was no issues and I would make sure I started the genset when boon docking every day. The temps going dwn into singe digits are fine. James Triana recommends to set the thermostats at 70. I put a light bulb in the water compartment and one in the storage compartment too. Had no issues. I did go to an Aquahot next coach and cold weather is easier to live in as the bays are warmer and the fans are quieter. Still the same temp inside though. So both work fine. I agree about different or more insulation on the floor and door of the water compartment. I also shove a big sponge in the hoe with the power cord.
Things that make so much difference - insulated windows and aquahot - yes the maintenance is more on the diesel unit, but three zones of seperate heat, almost endless hot water and heat and little worry of running out of fuel, PLUS the fans are SO quiet. the furnace "roar" woke us up as it cycled on and off, you can't tell when the aquahot is running.
Ever hear of a Aqua Hot user that wanted to go back to a gas furnace? Unless they just not willing to service every two years.
Never mind the extra amount of fuel burned by the LP furnace and all the heat going out the exhaust, in general, it takes about 3 times the LP fuel to Diesel fuel for the same use.
Its like having water plumbed in / carry water from the well :o It does not take long to get the pix.
Cheers & MNHO
Dave M
I had one in the 21-foot Streamline trailer we used (and still have) and they really can pump out the heat. They are also called "catalytic" heaters and many people plumb them into the propane lines that lead to the stove/oven. The one we had (have) scared me silly when it was running although it was only really scary on start-up. But I would not keep it running overnight. It certainly kept that little trailer warm on cold mornings though.
Craig
We have spent several days in below freezing temps, and 14 degrees in Denver in December and got along fine with furnaces and or heat strips. With lite bulbs in bays and being prepared cold is not a real problem in a FT.
Gary B
Just for a funny :)) , when I was running the MCI, I had a 35,000 btu lp furnace in the upper part and a 1500 w heater in the water compartment, (all water was in the rear baggage compartment, so was tieght to outside elements. This worked fine to -8f I know for sure, how much lower is unknown to me.
Bus RV is fun, but lots of work and money to keep em going, once you can not do the work on em ur self.
Dave M
Even the smallest leak in the coach heater may result in higher CO levels in the coach. Using an unvented or catalytic heater will produce much higher CO levels inside and translates to elevated CO levels in the blood. A heart condition, high altitude and CO are a particularly bad combination. Stepping outside in fresh air won't do much good as it takes hours for the CO to leave the bloodstream. Cooking with the stove or oven can raise the CO level, especially if the flame is out of adjustment.
As winter approaches, it's a good idea to check all pilot lights as well as the appliance flame for any trace of yellow, a sure sign of CO production. Gas companies can make the check and adjust the flame, usually for no charge. Occasional colors in the flame are dust particles in the air burning. A sealed refrigerator compartment won't allow CO to enter the passenger compartment.
EZ prevention is to have a good detector onboard. Not expensive and can quickly point out any potential problems.
A short article with good tips about CO is found here: Carbon Monoxide Advice | RV's Caravans & Holiday Homes (http://www.carbonmonoxidekills.com/25/RVs_Caravans_Holiday_Homes) Couple of items here that I never considered.
FYI: Diesel engine exhaust normally produces/contains much less CO than gasoline engines/generators.
Pierce
We try to get south in the cold, but sometimes that does not work. We use an oil filled radiator (electric) inside to keep us nice and comfy with no noise, uses only 15 amps on highest setting, lights in the bays if down in the 20's. etc. If it is staying cold, I fill my water tank and disconnect the hoses.
Best idea go south young man.
Ted & Karen
2001 36 ft U270
Woke up this morning to three inches of snow, temperature 30 F. The coach is parked on our driveway with both the electric and diesel switches of the aqua hot on. The thermostat was on 65 on zone 1 and 62 on zone 2. The bathroom thermostat is set just under half of its full travel of the sliding switch. The diesel part of the aqua hot cycled on and off but it appears, the coach maintained the temperature with just the electric. I checked the coach at four in the morning and again at nine this morning. Nice and toasty warm and all zones not blowing but the bathroom was still on. In conclusion it appears that the aqua hot can easily maintain my temperature settings at this outside temperature with occasional cycling on and off.
We spent 2 months in Nebraska the winter of 2012, Jan and Feb. with our u320. The aqua hot did fine on diesel even when it got down to -9 with a 15 mph wind. It only used about 3 gallons a day and it kept it warm enough to be comfortable in short sleeved shirts and no shoes. I did put a light bulb in the water bay, no freeze ups. We plan to spend this winter at home in Florida
I'm one of those who has tried just about every product when it comes to staying warm in winter and cool in summer. One thing that some of you may not know is that those "heat strips" on the roof (aka heat pumps) are good only down to about 38 degrees F. outside, so long as there is little or no wind...increase the wind, then increase the temperature value. You might think you are putting out heat at much lower temps, but the law of physics will prove you wrong! What is more likely is that since heat rises, the blowers from those heat pumps are simply circulating that warmer air...which is good in some ways. Just don't be fooled into thinking that your heat strips are doing anything for you when the temp outside is much below 38 degrees.
Unfortunately, I no longer have an Aqua-Hot and now have one of the more inefficient types of heating available...a gas log fireplace and central gas forced air whole house heating systems. YES, if there was an Aqua-Hot system available that I could use to heat my land-based home, I would certainly consider it. When I had my SOB's I had a catalytic propane heater, which I sold shortly after getting my 2002 U320 Foretravel I also had an Edenpure Electric Quartz forced air heater which really works wonders for up to 1000 sq.ft. living space so long as the outside temp never got much below 20F.
Just make sure you never forget to let the water drip if you are using a city water hookup or you may discover some really BIG problems the next morning. After that happened to me one time, I never used the city water system for long term usage...fill the water tank and be sure your water bay is kept warm. No more frozen hoses or broken water valves that can never be replaced (manufacturer of water faucet out of business).
Our coach has "heat strips," but does not have "heat pumps." Specifications at Foretravel Specifications, Floor Plans, Photos & Brochures by Year (https://wiki.foreforums.com/doku.php?id=through_the_years:specs) indicate that FT started installing heat pumps in 1999. My understanding is that a "heat pump" is an air conditioner running in reverse, i.e., it transfers heat from the outside to the inside. Indeed, heat pumps don't work well if outside temperatures are below about 40F.
We normally use the propane furnaces rather than the heat strips. Our control doesn't allow the use of heat strips and furnaces at the same time. The rear propane furnace supplies heat to the bays.
John's recommendation regarding disconnecting shore water in freezing temperatures is good advice. We do a bit of camping in cold weather. We always operate from the fresh water tank rather than from shore pressure. We carry a heated water hose from No Freeze Water Hose - Eliminate Water Line Freeze (http://www.nofreezewaterhose.com) and use it when temperatures are below freezing. We use it for filling the fresh water tank as necessary. We monitor the operation to verify that nothing freezes up during the operation.
There are two campgrounds were we have stayed for a few days in subfreezing weather on more than one occasion. The campground in Missouri has heated water hookups. During cold weather the campground in Montana uses water hookups in a small well about 20" below ground near the back end of the parking space. Both systems allowing us to fill the fresh water tank as necessary. At both campgrounds, we had no problem dumping the waste water. The relatively warm waste water dumps quickly. We only open the dump valves briefly to dump waste water.
Thank you for all your inputs, Does a 1998 U270 put heat into the bays?
Yes it does. The duct work is clearly visible from the propane furnace(s).
Peter
yes it does but only on propane furnace.
Does the AquaHot heat the bays in a 2002 U320?
I am continually amazed at the amount of information in this forum. Spending my nights here.
Yes it does.
Yeaaaa. ;D
You have to turn it on though the water manifold bay, there is a knob that set the bay heat. Make sure it s not on 0 or no heat.
We don't have Aquahot, ceiling fans, or double pane windows. We do have two propane furnaces and are getting "fluffier" to help reduce chills and broken bones when we fall. Now, hopefully we will bounce.
When in very cold weather we have found that having a small fan up high to move air around really helps. Otherwise hot air is high, cold air settles low, our feet get cold, and the furnaces run more often.
One problem still remains and that is the condensation on the inside of the windshield. We lay towels along the dash and, in the morning, if we are leaving we use a squegee.
Our black and gray water tanks are not protected from the elements but a small electric heater in the dump valve compartment seems to do the job. If it is going to get really cold I will do a dump and then pour in a little RV antifreeze.
"You have to turn it on though the water manifold bay, there is a knob that set the bay heat. Make sure it s not on 0 or no heat."
John S - Can you explain/show where this knob is located in the bay?
TX
Here is a photo on another thread
Bay Heating (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16416.msg105055#msg105055)
Tommorrow we head out for Vancouver and christmas with family before heading south. The weather is the pits and we have mtns to go thru. Here is a link to show what it is like right now half way thru our trip. Click on the HWY 3 cams and look at Allison Pass etc. Fun drive Thursday!!!
B.C.Highway Cams (http://images.drivebc.ca/bchighwaycam/pub/html/www/65.html)
Wish us luck.
John H
Wow, It looks pretty angry out there John. It's usually the other drivers that concern me in those kind of weather conditions. Be careful and good luck.
Dean
John,
Be safe! Enjoy the comforts of your FT while waiting for safe conditions if necessary.
We enjoyed a high temperature of 80F at home today as I prepared the FT for our holiday trip. We expect to spend Christmas in Missouri and New Year's observance in Montana. I expect there may be some similar road cam pictures on our route. We plan to carry enough supplies to "wait out" bad conditions and only travel if the roads are clear.
To all,
Best wishes to all for comfortable, safe, and joyous holidays whether the outside temperatures are hot, cold, or just right for you.
Dave, an FYI. They are forecasting snow and maybe a "Life Threatening Conditions" situation in Oklahoma for Christmas and the 26th. Also, KC is potentially in the patch of a pretty big one. I think we may pass on our KC for Christmas this year.
Hi John,
As we live in Alberta I am thankful that we moved the coach this fall to the warm south. We are now back home for the holidays, and are enjoying the snow and cold temperatures knowing that we will soon be joining the coach for the winter.
Drive very carefully. I hear that it is snowing in Vancouver.
Have a Merry Christmas
Thanks, Kent. We plan to be in place near the family north of KC by Saturday, December 22. There is an excellent campground in Platte City that is open year round. It looks like enough clear weather between tomorrow and Saturday for us to make the 800 mile trek. We plan enjoy Smithville, MO, through Christmas.
From Smithville, we will watch weather and see when we can proceed to Montana. We may be able to provide reports regarding "coldest outside temperatures while still remaining comfortable inside FT."
Because of the "life threatening conditions," we will diligently check weather and keep sufficient supplies to wait out a storm. Right now, I am baking bread to take on the trip. We'll load up our shorts (for Texas) and warm duds (for northward) tomorrow morning.
Today it has snowed all day and I see on the news that the new, just opened 10 lane span bridge to Vancouver was closed for 6 hrs as ice was falling off the massive cables holding bridge up. The icicles actually could be seen going right thru windscreens and sun roofs. 2 people injured. This is the largest cable span bridge in the world and it has happened on others in the world??? Did not they think about this?
I may not make it that far looking at the cams so I will not worry. If you do not hear from me for a few days please send out the Posse (no Michelle, not them)
John H
Crap. We'll be passing through on 69 sometime on the 25th or 26th!
And I still have the "geezerdude spot" bookmarked so we can monitor progress and send in the sled team if needed ;)
I tested SPOT yesterday on a trip to town. It will start reporting when we head north. We had planned to leave today, but are still waiting for an important document to arrive via USPS. Maybe we'll start north tomorrow. That gives us a better opportunity to participate more fully in the "Great Holiday Escape." Weather Underground shows that conditions should be good for a few more days. Forecast Maps | Weather Underground (http://www.wunderground.com/ndfdimage/viewimage)
Hmm. You have "the posse" AND a sled team?!
For those who travel in hazardous conditions or to unusual places, SPOT is a nifty device which can share your location and allow you to call for help without using the cell phone network. It uses satellite communication and works if the device can "see" the sky. SPOT SATELLITE MESSENGER :: HOME PAGE (http://findmespot.com/en/) It might be useful if you exceed conditions for "coldest outside temperatures while still remaining comfortable inside FT."
BTW, I became "The Geezerdude" after my son and grandson got T-shirts labeled "Dude" and "Little Dude."
The low tonight here in Gallup, NM is supposed to be 2 degrees F. Ugh!
I am guessing you can report in the morning that you remained comfortable inside your FT. That will be a pretty good data point for the subject of the thread.
Stay safe and comfy.
Yes, I remained comfortable. The generator auto-started in the middle of the night. It ran rough at first, but smoothed out. It was 1 degrees when I woke up. I've started the genny manually to charge the batteries for a couple hours before starting the engine. I have two temp monitors in the bays, one at the manibloc and one in the service bay. The former stayed in the 40's, while the service bay got down to 36.
Thank you to everyone. This is a exceptional group of sharing. And I consider it a honor to be a part of such a great group. Hopefully as I get more experience and knowledge, I can contribute. Have a Merry Christmas and a the very best New Year John
We've been 30F - 9F the last 9 days at my parents in central IL. Absolutely no issues! Plugged into 50 A service, running rear furnace at 60 - 65F. Bought a $25 ceramic heater for the front to conserve propane. We've run through less than a 1/4 tank propane thus far. Pretty impressive IMHO!
We have been experiencing similar weather since December 23. Temperatures have ranged from 0 to 30F. We are currently in Billings, MT. We have traveled in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana. We were able to pick routes and times when roads were clear and driving conditions were good.
We set rear furnace at 68 and front furnace at 66. We run a ceramic heater in the salon while on shore power. We have used a 200W ceramic heater in each of the "wet" bays when temperatures were below 32F. The "personal" ceramic heaters seem to work very well to supplement the heat to the bays from the rear furnace.
All has been comfortable and good so far. Cold weather promoted some leakage issues. I tightened some hose clamps on fuel lines for the generator. I replaced an air regulator for the stair cover.
We plan to head for warmer weather at home in Texas tomorrow.
Saw your post on leaking J.D., My radiator hose on the engine developed a small leak also. Tightened it up and so far, no leak recurrence. I used to live in Illinois and don't think I ever had experienced that before. At first thought I may have a broken line due to freezing. I could not find a break/crack. Thank goodness only needed a moment to tighten and was fixed. I like easy solutions! LOL
I supplemented a couple night with personal ceramic heaters just because I was curious. They were thermostat-less heaters. My remote temp gauges went from 40-50 degrees to 105-107 in each bay!
Best Regards,
Benjie
Benjie Zeller
(512) 587-4628
I've seen coolant leaks in a Volvo and a BMW that occurred when temperatures dropped. A bit of snugging up of hose clamps while everything was cold fixed the problem on those vehicles.
The temp at the top of the bay will be a LOT warmer than the temp at the bottom of the bay. I've seen my water filters at 20F near the bottom of the bay when the top of the bay was 80F. I checked the temps with an infrared thermometer. After I saw that difference, I moved the remote thermometers closer to the bottoms of the bays. We've not used the remote thermometers on this trip, but have been checking the water pipes and water filters with the hand held IR device. With the electric heaters running, the plumbing near the bottoms of the bays was running ~45F.
A couple of days ago there were interesting readings with the IR thermometer. Early in the morning, the air temp was about 0F according to two reliable thermometers. The skin of coach near the engine measured -24.5F. The ground was reading -14.5F. That was after a cold, clear night when surfaces could shed a lot of heat by radiation. Gloves were in order to handle anything outside!
I positioned my thermometers as low as I could. My external sink and valve bay gets coldest without supplemental help. Reached 39F one night but also is hottest (107F) with supplemental help since its a very small area.
Best Regards,
Benjie
Benjie Zeller
(512) 587-4628
39F sounds great for low in the bay. Sounds like you are set to handle the conditions.
Keep on keeping the bride and those babies safe, warm, and happy!
I have friends in Breckenridge in their FT, temp this AM is at-16F.
Roland
Is it safe to say that a non slide unit would be more suitable for cold weather longterm?
I'm not familiar w/ the insulation ratings on a slide...but I'd think it would be compromised to a great degree.
Several nights down to 8 degrees this past week in Santa Fe. The coldest area in the coach is the front (front window of course) and the rear. Other than having to work to keep the rear area warmer the FT handled the cold temps fine.
No difference with the slide or the nonslide. I had both of them in cold single digits....
I suspect that the slide bladders lose heat. I know the larger interior volume with slides will take more energy to heat, but certainly possible.
Yes the Aquahot may run more but it works.
Maybe this is common knowledge, but it was news to me when I discovered it. If you turn off the engine block heater and the 120 volt AC air compressor you can run both rooftop electric heaters on a 30 amp service without tripping the breaker. I camped in temperatures down to 17 degrees comfortably this way. With a 50 amp service you can run everything of course, but some campgrounds only have 30 amp service. If you have the Detroit Diesel 6V92TA engine with straight 40 weight motor oil in it you'll need to run your block heater for a couple of hours before you can start the engine, which of course means you'll have to turn off one of your rooftop electric heaters and use the gas furnace for a while. My 6V92TA with straight 40 weight motor oil will start without the engine block heater down to about 50 degrees, but it definitely won't start at 40 degrees or colder without the block heater running for a couple of hours... Hope this information is helpful to someone other than me! :)
Scott