Foretravel Owners' Forum

Greetings to all,

I'd like to introduce myself to the community. I live in Southern California, my name is Michael McLaughlin, and yes -- I have been a "Foretravel lurker". That is - I've been on different forum's for the past few years as I learned and absorbed as much as I could about the various models produced from 1986-1996. I looked at hundreds online, and stepped up to, and crawled around/under about a half dozen GV's and Unihomes -- all in the hope that I'd be able to swing the deal of liquidating some of my other toys (such as an Italian sportscar), return to working at a real profession again (having been laid-off in 2008), and make the move towards owning one of these excellent machines.

This brutal economy did its best to de-rail my plans time and time again.

However -- after 4 years, it just came together. I'm working again, the sportscar found a new home, and I rolled the dice big-time to acquire what had become my dream Coach, a 1995 U300 SE with the Cat 3176.

I say "roll the dice", because among many potential challenges I'm facing -- I have no previous-owner history on this Coach. It has not been running for perhaps 3 years -- even though it did fire up with an external diesel fuel source, and the generator runs fine, showing 450 hours. The VDO odometer shows an amazingly low 7,154 miles (which I suppose -- could be completely bogus). The interior is mint from end-to-end (just very..very dusty). Of course, it needs tires, a complete set of batteries, all the filters and fluids changed, belts, and that's just the very beginning. But it matters not  to me. I'm just very stoked over the fact that I have it, and working again means I can start pouring the money into the top of the funnel to restore it.

I'll be doing all the work myself, as I've a pretty heavy automotive background in both hands-on and the engineering side of things. It appears the first thing (after a new set of batteries) is to investigate what could be a nasty situation with the main fuel tank, and fuel feed lines. I'm certain I'm looking at the replacement of the lines, and right now I'm looking at alternative materials to rubber hose. I spent years building and modifying sports cars, Formula cars, and sports racers -- for reliability on the racetrack, and there are often much better materials than were originally fitted. Knowing this fuel line replacement is a major PITA-- I want to do it once only. Any suggestions?

I'm also quite aware that the air-bags should all be replaced, together with the flexible brake hoses, propane hoses, and even though the range and fridge appear to have never been used -- I understand that this area needs a very careful checking out.

So, the "adventure" begins. I guess some might pick another word, like "lunacy". 

I'm just thrilled to have finally gotten here.

With best regards,

Michael

P.S. -- After seeing the I.D. number on my Coach (12335), if anyone has any knowledge of what/who came before -- please forward the info.  (good or bad-- matters not). I did find an old online Ad from maybe 3-4 years ago -- offering it for sale for $149,000 obo -- but that's about it.

Excellent.  Welcome to the club.

If you need advice on that one, let us know.

Steps I would take:

1.  Verify all wiring visually before connecting to shore power or charging batteries.  Mice tend to chew wires on coaches in storage for years.  You don't want to start a fire or short out a PC board. Yes, that means dropping the overhead wire trays in the basements too.

2.  "Smell the diesel".  If it smells OFF, have it pumped out and discarded.  Fuel polishers (marine thing) can give you pointers.  You sure don't want to introduce potentially decade old diesel into the injection system if it is bad. 

3.  Change batteries and tires.  FMCA has a fleet discount program with Michelin-- if you need more details, Private Message me.

4.  Very important-- test the coolant-- the 3176 has an aluminum spacer between block and head.  If anti-corrosion properties are gone, you may be doing engine work. Check for any sign of water in oil/oil in water.

In the rear engine compartment there should be an engine hour meter, Located on the remote engine start panel near the top of the engine compartment ( May be covered with vinyl flap) this should give you a good idea how many hours are on the engine, also a cummins shop could read the engine history from the computer.  Nice Find!!! Welcome aboard......  ^.^d

Thanks, Brett and Gerry!

Tomorrow -- I will check into both of these, looking for the meter, and getting on my back in the basement to inspect wiring for damage. Gerry, it is a CAT, but I'm assuming that same meter is on the remote-start panel. I'd already thought of just having a pumping truck remove all the old fuel, and then with the tank drain open - spraying through the tank-fill inlet with a wand --- some mineral spirits or other solvent to try and flush out the tank of sludge or bio-mass goo I'm sure is there. 

Mike, welcome aboard. I think you will be surprised at how good the condition of the components of a 95 Grand Villa, even one that has been setting for a long time, will be. I am on my second 93 Grand Villa and other than the basics, tires and batteries have found most of the systems still in great shape. As Gerry suggested, check the hour meter in the engine compartment to get an idea of the actual mileage. I would hope the mileage is much higher than that showing on the odometer since regular use keeps the systems in better shape than just setting. Do the basics as suggested by Brent and others, but the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is very pertinent to these vintage Foretravels. I have found that the fuel lines on both of my 93's are in great shape even at 19 years old.

It sure looks a nice rig in the photos so you have a great foundation for many years of happy motoring.

 

Thanks, Kent.  I will take the advice (if it ain't broke... don't)  One thing I've already read about time and time again is a small part failure being the one that leaves one dead on the road, and needing that very expensive tow to a shop where you are a captured potential victim. So -- I'm trying to make it as reliable as I can before hitting the road for even the first test-drive.

I estimate 4-6 months before that date, but that may be overly-conservative. It can only be a weekends project. 

I certainly don't suggest neglecting repairing things that are worn or doing preventative maintenance, but I have found that the quality of the components Foretravel used, even the fuel lines and hoses, in the older units makes them far more reliable than I would have ever guessed.

The best insurance against being stranded is either Coachnet or Good Sam's tow services. I would not leave the driveway without one or the other. They also have service plans that will give you expert telephone advice on fixing all components of the motorhome and send out local service technicians for even non-drive train repairs like your furnace or air conditioner. FWIW 

Congratulations and welcome.

The number on the coach in large numerals is the Foretravel Motorcade number.  Buying a new or used coach entitles you to a free membership. See link.

Foretravel Luxury Motorcoaches (http://www.foretravel.com/motorcade/)

The black "egg" on the rear is the previous owners Family Motor Coach Association number.  I believe that there is a member database that you can look up if you are a member.  I let mine lapse when the insurance changed.

FMCA is for motor coach and motorhome owners. Motorcoach articles, motor home (http://www.fmca.com/)

Good luck with it and don't be afraid to ask questions.

Keith

Good for you! There have been a couple of '95 Cat U300s on the market in California the last few years - one down in the San Diego area (I think it had a trans retarder) and one up in or north of the LA area which had the standard jake brake.

These were the rarest (and arguably the best) Unihomes made. We have at least two 95 Cat owners here - Rick D and Jon Harris.

FYI - I looked at a 2008 Motorcade list, and that number doesn't come up.

Congrats. That looks like a nice find! Where in so cal are you located?
Don

I looked too at FMCA and did not find 165123.  There is another alternative, for while I did not find the 12335 in my Motorcade Directory, I imagine Ms. Betty Kountze at FOT will help you.  And if you have the Build Number for the coach, she can get you design and related information.  That is a good number to have.  Give her a call Monday at 936-564-8367 or try 800-955-6226.  In addition she can sign you up for the free 2013 Motorcade membership.....good magazine, trips, rallies, some service discounts that can help. 

Mike

Michael,

Congratulations on a great find.  The 1995 U300 SE is a very rare Unihome, and my favorite coach Foretravel ever made.  The 1996 U280 is also one of the best ever built.  I would go with Brett's suggestions...after ensuring the wiring is okay, then operate all the appliances and chassis electronics to begin the process to improve/replace components.  You may find out that there are many systems & appliances that do not need any attention.  And, in many cases, after weeks of running and operating the coach, some appliances & systems begin to work...To me it's magic as I can't tell how these cob webs become undone...Enjoy!

Peter

Thanks very much for all the valuable advice. I'm located in Santa Monica (temporarily). I had the Coach delivered up in Ventura County very near my sister place in Thousand Oaks --  where I'm renting a 45' concrete pad with water and electricity from a homeowner in a safe, nice neighborhood. My plan is to take the 4-6 months if necessary to prep it, and then fine a nice RV Resort in the area to use as a base for full-timing -- moving it when and where project assignments take me through the Western U.S.

As I'm so new to the actual "being an owner", I will be full of questions, and here is one:

Attached is a picture of the warning label next to the I.D. plate about retarder operation -- that leads me to think that this Coach does have the transmission retarder. Am I correct?

Safe and fun motoring,

Michael

Yep! You have one of those rare birds... A Grand Villa with a trans retarder. I believe that I read that the Allison retarder was an $11K option! If so, no wonder they were rare... Here is a link which may give you some info on the trans retarder:
http://www.allisontransmission.com/servlet/DownloadFile?Dir=publications/pubs&FileToGet=SA2953EN.pdf (http://www.allisontransmission.com/servlet/DownloadFile?Dir=publications/pubs&FileToGet=SA2953EN.pdf)
Don

Thanks, Don -- I was thinking this was the case. I'll definitely call Betty on Monday, thanks for the tip.

I can't wait to get over there tomorrow and get my hands dirty and hopefully calm my own concerns about wiring damage. There is evidence from an odor and droppings that mice were in the basement. I found no evidence anywhere "upstairs" - after pulling drawers and poking in access panels -- of any intrusion.

Thing is-- I'm doing a total kitchen re-model for a woman friend here in Santa Monica - and today I PROMISED her I'd work at it all day to make some progress. It's killing me! -- I'd much rather be poking around the Coach to follow through on all of the advice coming from you folks.

Oh well.....

And based on that ID plate you have build number 4612.

Congrats (especially on the retarder!), and welcome to ForeForums!

Michelle

Mike - that's Beverly Koonce, Motorcade Club Manager.

Michelle

My 2003 Motorcade directory lists 12335 as belonging to:
John & Mary Margaretis
319 Delicada
San Celemente, CA 92128
714-498-5426

Thanks to Michelle and Gayle. Yes -- I just got off the phone with Gary, and he filled me in with most of the history of the Coach -- going back some years, and an amazing amount of "just the way to do this" technical info. He knew the original owner, John Margaritis. And may I say how impressed I am with all of you that have stepped forward to not only welcome me to your community, but how much valuable information you've already provided. It's turning out that the 7,154 miles on the ODO -- is probably -- the actual total miles.

I look forward to getting through the mechanical restoration, the spit and polish on the exterior -- and meeting some of you in the near future when 12335 rolls again!

Michael

You'll get your own number - it'll still be build 4612 (that's how the techs and great folks at FOT like James Triana will know your coach), but the Motorcade number is assigned to the owner, not the coach.  You should be in the 17000's after you talk to Beverly :)

Michelle

I forgot to add, and if Brett didn't already point you there, there's a great engine resource in Diesel RV Club, an FMCA Chapter (http://www.catrvclub.org/forum/)

Most to date is Cat-related, but the mission of the CatRVClub has now evolved (in the last couple of months) into the Diesel RV Club to include all diesel motorhome engines.  The forum is free (and Steve is one of the admins there as well); the club itself is an FMCA chapter.

Michelle

I expect that's the one I had seen for sale on and off since 2006 on RV trader..

 Hi Michael,  When you are snooping around the inside of your coach you should be able to find these unique things, 1)The Safe; located in the floor, in the carpet, in front of the passenger seat, combination can be obtained from "Foretravel" or the safe manufacturer with the serial number located on the top plate. 2) The table between the two barrel chairs extends and there is a leaf tucked away, too the front of that book case behind the front barrel chair,  3) A built in vacuum cleaner under the Refrigerator. 4) electric fuse panels, Hot water heater (110v) switch, located on the face of the foot of the bed under the valance. 5) Fresh water tank fill valve, in the cabinet under the bathroom sink.  That's a good start, lets us know if we can be of any help, I also have a similar coach build #  4466      8) 

Thought that number looked familiar.  I sold that new.  Way fast coach.  Congrats on that one.  As far as fixing anything I can't but I drove the coach many times.  Mileage may be correct as John did not use it much and his son manny used it a few times.

Used to be parked on delicada.  Sold at a Newport beach rally with les brown and Harry James band in a tent on the beach.  Spent a lot of foretravels money that weekend. 

Asked about it long ago but John was very proud of it.  Memorized the phone number to this day.  Love to see it redone.  It does not know what a hill was.

Be careful as old antifreeze without conditioners in the system caused the engine to corrode internally.  Iron block and aluminum plate and iron head. Barely remember so the details may be wrong but check this first if it was mine.  Roll the dice. 

Way faster than my 1997 U320.  If I remember right it has a real top speed 100mph?  Maybe wrong.  Maybe not. 

Always wondered where that went.  I remember John sitting in the recliner chair right now.

Wow! -- you gal's and guy's are something! -- I went in one day from not knowing squat about it's history -- to speaking by phone with a guy that knew the original owner, and now the guy that sold it new, and WHERE! -- and even who was playing the music!

Way cool.... I'm very glad to hear from all of you.

Is this forum great, or what?!  Wishing you the best of luck with your coach. Good to see another brave soul chasing the dream!

That is great

Welcome Michael,

As you know by now, you have a very very rare Foretravel. I believe there were only five or six 95, U300 , with 3176 Cats , with retarders, built.(if somebody knows the exact number, I would like to know). My late wife and I tried many times over many years to buy that coach from John, but he was always too proud of it and we never could get together on price. We finally bought a nice low mileage 96 U 295 that we had for several years. If John had ever weakened a little and maybe gotten a little less proud, I would have handed him the title of our U295 and put money in his pocket for the coach you now own.

There is a master plan for everyone and no matter how hard we want something, the plan never changes. We finally sold the 96 and bought a 2000 42' U320 with one slide. It was , and still is, for me, the perfect coach. Katie & I ran thousands of miles. She took thousands of pictures. We met hundreds of people and have friends all over the country.

I am sure that we could have made a lot of memories in your 95, but I now know, the master planner gave us "more better"memories in the limited time I had with her. She passed away Dec 6th in 09. That "00" 320 is all I will ever need and hopefully will serve my needs for many years.

After our visit last night, it sounds like your future plans will get good use of my "dream "coach and I am very happy to know it is in good hands. You will find a number of problems before it is drivable and live able but the basic foundation is the best Foretravel ever made and what ever the cost, it will be worth it. This forum will help you every step and always, call me any time when needed.

Also, Call Beverly and become a member of the Motorcade. Then try to have the coach ready by early Dec. to attend the Calif. Christmas Motorcade rally. You will probably meet people who knew John & Mary and the coach and you will not find a better group to learn from and be with. I only wish I could be there with you.

Gary O

Gary O, Me thinks you have CA on the Brain .... Bet Christmas Rally is in FL... :)  Had to pick on you.
We are just back from 8500 mile, 3 month trip, no major problems with coach .. Overall MPG 8.3 including genny time, avg fuel price 4.19 per gal.  I'm about wore out but had a great time and met a lot of great folks.  We now have been in all the states except AK in our fifty years together.  Don't know if we will plan an AK trip or not.
L Knee replacement in two weeks and then on the FL about the first of the year.
See you then.
Gary B

 Is this a first?    Two posts in the same day!    Yes Gary B, I do have Calif. on my mind.That west coast group can really get into the Christmas spirit but,I have made the reservations for Sun & Fun in Fl., so will see you all then.
 Also,,let this be a  warning.    When Michael gets his (and my) dream coach running and has a few K miles of big rig experiance , with his racing knowledge, all of those FT owners with 500+ HP motors and all who have the resonators and straight pipes will quickly learn what real torque and HP is when Michael smiles and waves is he passes them.(that is, IF he wants to)
 Caflashbob is right. Michaels dream will do 100 MPH and will not know what a hill is.
 Gary, You can go AK. In style. There is a 2012 IH and an 07 Nimbus on Ebay right now at fire sale prices.You can have near new or barely used. We will help Jane get moved in while you recover and then Sandy & I will tour AK. with you.
  Anyone know the history on these motorhomes?
 Gary O

"There is a 2012 IH and an 07 Nimbus on Ebay right now at fire sale prices.You can have near new or barely used."

These are from a dealer in Colorado.  The IH is listed for sale just shy of $800,000.00.  FWIW

An IH on Ebay ?  Do I smell a nigerien in there somewhere ?
Gary B

Gary, those coaches are being sold by Transwest and are legit. FWIW

The great Bearded One makes 3 post's on the forum in one day,his satellite must be out. ^.^d

Michael M,
Welcome to the foreforum. As noted by Dave H. I have 1995 U-300SE CAT 3176B w/jake brake. I bought it 4 years ago just north of Los Angeles and hopped in and drove it home to MA. It had 138K miles on it and is just broken in.  This was my first motorhome and there is a big learning curve. Get a coolant sampling kit from theCAT dealer(14.00) and send it in, they ask for a sample from a warmed up engine but a cold one is probably a better start than nothing. If you look up posts authored under my foreforum name "Rick" you will find lots of tech info. If you have specific questions or want to talk on phone, just PM me and we will get together. Echoing the advice of Kent? "if it ain't broke, dont break it"
Good luck,
Rick

Michael, I think we will all be very interested in your journey to see what works and what doesn't on this great old coach. If in fact it only has 7xxx miles on it, there may very well be lots issues to be addressed but you seem very competent to handle a coach like this and will have plenty of advice from the members here. I sure hope your new project will be as painless as many of us have found in our vintage coaches. Please keep us up on your adventure.

Good morning to all !

Yesterday I started poking around and under the beast for the first time since it was delivered last Tuesday. So -- here are my observations that represent the "as found" condition. I've not put any shore power into it (per your advice), nor have I tried any systems. I simply turned off all the breakers in the bedroom panel, all the electrical switches I found anywhere that had the "off" option -- did a first-run cleaning of all interior surfaces, and then got on my back on the concrete and in the basement. So I'll answer some of the questions you kind folks asked.

1.) Gary, It does have the two huge-diameter fluid lines coming out of the tail of the Allison and going to a cylindrical tube & shell cooler.

2. ) I did pull both sheet metal covers in the ceiling of the basement bays to expose the wiring looms and piping. There were significant rodent droppings on the trays , but absolutely no sign of any chewing on any wire insulation or it's plastic spiral jacketing. I then pulled the carpeted cover panel off  to be able to gain access to the top of the holding tanks. Yes -- there were also quite a few droppings there, but after carefully removing them without breaking the delicate transducer wires bonded to the tanks, again I saw no evidence of any chewed or broken wires. A previous owner had stuffed some rags into some of the gaps in the basement -- evidently aware there were critters trying to get up in there.

3.) Interestingly enough -- the 8D Gel battery in the lower slide had the positive terminal completely severed from thru-corrosion of the entire post. It was laying on the battery case with all of the cables still bolted tight on the clamp. I believe -- these are the original gel 8D's. 

4.) The voltage panel above the entrance door shows a voltage of 13.86 volts, but moving the switch over to the amp-hours position
 gives a read-out of "1". Incidently -- yes, this is with the master switch at the entry door -- "off"

5. ) The Solar system read-out panel on the wall next to the range -- has the little red l.e.d. that is flickering. I'm wondering if that output is the only reason there is still that much voltage in the batteries.

6.) Here's a big one --- I lifted that rubber flap over the remote start panel in the engine bay, and the totalizing meter has a reading of 57.1 hours!! The Powertech Gen-Set reads 429 hours.

7. ) The front Oregon License plate has a year-sticker of 2004 - so I can assume that this was the last time the Coach was on the highway.

8. ) I took a sniff of the fuel at the main tank inlet, and I detected no "sour" or "biological stink". But-- I'm still going to dump it (it may have been in there for 8 years now) and follow Gary's advice as far as getting a fresh 20-30 gallons into the tank after a dumping or pumping out -- slightly pressurizing the tank with a rag and air-nozzle at the inlet neck, and with the lines at the banjo fittings on the gen-set, and the lines at the engines  pre-filter loosened, bleed until there is clean fuel to both the Gen-Set and the engine. I'm thinking when I put fresh batteries in it I should be able to determine how full the tank is -- assuming the fuel guage works. And I thought at that point I would start calling around to the truck places to see if I can get a pump truck to come over and pump out the tank.

9. The tow driver broke one of the "bent-bolt" anchor links on the air leveling valve arm,  up front.  It snapped at the threaded section. I hope the valve itself wasn't damaged. He was trying all sorts of schemes to use an out side air-line from his Semi-Tractor to get air into the bags and raise the Coach a few inches. He was not successful.

10. Per Garys' instruction I closely inspected the isolation bar attachment terminals  behind the left rear wheel. They are all clean, with red paint/sealant on them and no signs of electrolysis or corrosion. 

This is a blast!! -- now? -- well now I have to find a good price on a set of AGM 8D's (oh, and somebody to help me hoist them in there. I pulled the one myself yesterday, but I don't think it's in the best interest of my body to wrestle a pair of 165 pounder's back up in there)

Happy and safe motoring,

Michael

Michael, If an O'reillys near by ask if they can order 8d AGM's and what price .
Gary B

Michael,

Regards the 8D house batteries, I had a similar situation as yours except my coach had not been sitting in storage at all, but it did need new batteries.  I think what you want are 8G8D batteries which are gel rather than the 8A8D an AGM battery.  Either would work but the gel will last longer.  I believe the  AGM is only better for real cold weather.  I went on line and searched for a seller.  Found a company in Idaho that had a good price.  They called the distributor in Dallas who shipped them to Austin on a pallet the next day.  The delivery truck had a lift gate and they were dropped on the street in front of the house.  Sometimes you have to pay extra for lift gate service, but in this case delivery was included in the purchase price.  I rented an engine hoist to remove and install the batteries.  MK Battery, The Sealed Battery Specialists (http://www.mkbattery.com/)  The disadvantage in doing this is not having anyone but yourself to fix any problem that might appear later.  But after 4 years I have not had any problems. 

Regards the master switch at the door sometimes called a battery disconnect switch.  If you wanted to buy that switch you would ask for a battery disconnect switch, but that is not what it does.  It is mainly a master disconnect switch for all the 12 vdc lighting inside the coach and storage compartments, the water pump, part of the leveling system, and a few other things.  If you ever find that something electrical does not work, check that the master switch is on before doing anything else.  About everyone has experienced this problem and even after 4 yrs I still get caught by the switch being off.  Some of the things that still work with that switch off, the inverter function of the inverter/charger, travel mode of the leveling system, refrigerator, propane and CO leak detectors (you should replace them), my generator will start and run with master switch off. 

Good luck with getting everything up and running. 

  Michael,, Take a 3' (or so) piece of wire , bend it in a slight arch, gently arc it into the neck of the tank, and see how much is wet when you pull it out. Then you will know how much fuel you will have to dispose of.  Did you look for the drain under the tank?
 Gary O

Gary,

Nope - I forgot that one thing, but I'm dropping back there this afternoon and I'll look for that drain plug access.

Regards,

Michael

I like the 57.1 hours on the engine!!!  That would correspond to  the 7600 +/- miles on the odometer... That's like buying a new coach that was delivered 17 years after being built....  ^.^d

Gary O,
Gotta say I loved your comments concerning the U300 with the mighty Cat, Now the simple truth is What is the real weight of the U300 and what is the HP and Torque rating for the mighty Cat?  I find it amazing and am most anxious to offer my junk as a victum  ;D  IF it really runs that great,  I truely doubt it  ;D.
My numbers are 60 lb / hp  &  19.34 lb per ft lb, Find these good nunbers indeed. :o
Fess up on the numbers  ;D
Cheers
Dave M

Get new fuel, chassis battery, fuel and air filters.. Bleed the fuel lines and crank her up!

Congratulations Micheal on your great find!  I had a blast discovering all the neat things on my coach when I first bought it.

I've never heard of a drain plug on the fuel tanks.  I'm pretty sure my '91 doesn't have one.  Does anyone have one on their coach?

Hi Dave, Oh and hello to Bill W. Yes the bearded one types yet again, and all within 24hrs!  No, the sat ain't broke.  The grape harvest in Ca. is done.  The corn harvest in Ne. is done. The soybeans in Tn. is done and there ain't no major repairs to do on the coach, so we are now coasting and enjoying watching the fall weather in Tn. THAT means I turn this thing on, maybe once a day instead of once a month.

Dave, I am not a numbers person.so I can't properly answer your question. Maybe Barry Beam can find that info in his library. I go more on feel and experience. For example, our U320 is rated at 450 hp with 1450 ft lbs of torque. At 42', loaded with all the tools and spare MH parts, it will be somewhere between 39K-41K. Most of it's life, it has been run 75-82 mph towing a 5k toad but now that I don't have many jobs or commitments, that number is more in the high 60s . It runs very well , I have never wanted any thing more, and I have no plans to change it . The mighty 3176 Cat is ,I believe, is only 365 or 375hp and I have no knowledge of the torque. But, If I totally unloaded the 320, I would not challenge Michael to a drag race, a road race, or a hill climb. After driving several of those rare 95's,, I know I would lose.

When he has his dream coach back on the road he will feel like he has a "Vette" on steroids.

(keep your pink slip in your pocket)

Gary O

Michael, this is exciting. I think I would normally be concerned that seals and such in the drive train might have deteriorated setting as much as this coach has but I have a feeling things are going to turn out great for you. We can't wait to hear that the thing runs like a new one. Keep us in the loop.

Michael,
Not sure it was mentioned here but once you get the air bags inflated, make sure you block the frame up so that if something goes wrong with the leveling system you will not get squashed. You should also block up the axles if crawling underneath, especially the front. The tires are about 10" tall and if the tires just happen to blow out, especially the front, you could be crushed. Take a look and think about it.
Most of us have made frame blocking from 2x2 x 1/4 wall sq tubing 4 pieces 11" long.
Be carefull,
Good luck,
Rick

Rick,

Thanks for the advice. I had read of this mod . It makes sense to me.

Safety first!

Michael,

Below are a couple of links that may be of particular interest regarding safety and general information. It has been interesting to follow the start of your FT adventure.

Working safely around your Foretravel: http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=10632.0 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=10632.0)
Foretravel Discussions http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?board=6.0 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?board=6.0)

Well, 21 "Benjamin's" lighter in the billfold today, I went with all 5 as AGM batteries ($1835.00) and bought new filters for the Gen-set and the CAT at Napa Auto Parts. Oh, by the way -- isn't it ironic when you have to convince the parts counter guy that there is still a use for the old paper catalogs; that just because the part numbers don't cross-reference on the computer does not mean they don't have the right part in the store. He grudgingly pulled out the catalog, and lo and behold -- CAT and Power Tech filters were on the shelf!

So -- now I've only to find a creative way to get as much of the nasty 'ol fuel, sediment, goo --- out of the tank as possible, bleed the lines clean after adding 30 gallons of fresh -- and assuming the power-up with new electrons goes well -- I'll be ready to turn it over in about a week and make combustion!

All the best,
Michael

Michael, I believe you made the right call! It actually sounds like you got decent prices on the batteries. What brand did you settle on? Looking forward to your progress reports... and more pictures please!
Don

Michael,

Diesel doesn't deteriorate like gasoline.  If it doesn't smell bad, I'd just use a hand pump to draw a sample from the bottom.  If it comes up clean, I wouldn't worry about dumping it.

hmmmm..

Well - it did not have any unusual/off/objectionable odor at all. I have a Mitivac vacuum pump. I'll fit a long, clear plastic tube to it and pull a sample from the bottom.

Thanks for the tip.

If you decide to keep the fuel, you may want to add some cetane boost to the fuel as a conditioner.  It's available at most TSC's or other farm/tractor stores.  I don't know technically how this works, but I use it once in a while and the MPG improves some.  But I would not use it regularly without more knowledge.  Perhaps one of the "fuelies" will chime in.

I feel I have to step in here and clear some things. Diesel fuel has a strong smell and will always smell like diesel. After long term storage, the bottom of the tank will usually have water as a result of condensation but just above that level, the diesel fuel will look and smell just like the top. The real problem is the unknown and visually undetectable amount of algae . A bacteria that rapidly grows in the fuel the longer it sits.

I would suggest Michael contact some smaller construction companies that run heavy equipment and ask to speak to their "oilier"or shop manager. He should explain his problem and then offer the company FREE diesel fuel . The oilier will have a truck that can come to him and is equipped to draw the fuel out. Those older  big Cat dozers and scrapers will gobble that old RV fuel in minutes and it will be properly disposed of and everybody wins. All Michael has to do is get all the electric on the coach up and running, build up air with an outside source (like I have already told him how to), and then manually tilt the coach passenger side down before for the truck arrives. Also some oiller trucks carry road diesel that Michael could buy to refill the clean tank.

I have put several coaches back on the road after long term storage in this manner, and none ever had fuel problems.I have also seen several coaches where the fuel was "diluted"with a fill up of clean fuel and most (not all) , had multiple fuel filter changes over several thousand miles before the old fuel was gone. He can put an additive in the tank to kill the algae. but it will always be there clogging the filters.

I hope this info helps.  Michael, , call me if your interested in this idea. I might know some construction people in Ventura county that can help.

Micheal, I too would like to know the brand, info etc on those 5 AGM's as it looks like a very good price. I paid 1800 for my 3 8d house alone and that was over a year ago. The 2 AGM start I got at FOT were about 600+ ( I paid too much but needed them at the time.) So I reckon you did well depending on the make etc.
John H

Gary,

Thanks again - for that advice. I'll start poking around in the Thousand Oaks area -- for such an opportunity as soon as I determine how much fuel is actually in the tank.

To answer  those of you about the batteries, I chose a store in Thousand Oaks called Batteries Plus. They evidently have stores nationally to honor any warranty issues. The old chassis set were MK's, and I took the measurements off of them before going to the store. What matched up as far as size was a Group 24F, but I wanted higher output than the standard type in that size -- of at least 800 CCA in a AGM, so I bought a set of three Xtreme Permaseal's- with their item # SL124FAGMDP. The specs are 840 CCA, Flat Plate AGM, 160 minutes of reserve capacity, color is blue top -- and they have a 5 year full-replacement warranty. Buying all of my batteries from the guy, gave me a 10% discount. So the discounted price on these was $225 ea.

The 8D AGM's are a Ray Pro AGM with a 12 month full-replacement warranty, and those with the discount were priced at $524.70 ea.

So -- after CA tax -- $1835.00. Plus he is delivering them all to where I have the Coach -- and is taking away my old batteries.

Here is a link to what I purchased . The only exception is that mine are a group 24F, not a 24.

http://www.batteriesplus.com/product/46441-SLI24AGMDPM-Battery/100245-1/106974-X2-Power-Batteries/106976-Marine_RV/AGM.aspx (http://www.batteriesplus.com/product/46441-SLI24AGMDPM-Battery/100245-1/106974-X2-Power-Batteries/106976-Marine_RV/AGM.aspx)

Gary,

I don't understand how algae can be visibly undetectable.  When I've experienced algae problems severe enough to plug a fuel filter the algae was clearly visible in the tank.  Likewise, if water is present, it is a separate layer below to fuel.  I stand by by suggestion of pulling a sample from the bottom.  Let is settle, then look at it.

Brett,

Some, experienced owners can detect and solve problems on the road. Michael has mechanical knowledge but as a first timer and as we all know , his maiden voyage will not be totally trouble free. Hopefully, when that time comes,  the advice and help he gets from the forum, will make that and future trips enjoyable with a minimum list of write ups.

A sample pulled from a dormant, stationary tank, flat bottomed tank will not be the same as a sample pulled from the same tank that has been in motion. Eliminating potential (and likely) problems at this time will save him dollars and headaches on the side of the road.

He should NOT rub the buffalo's butt on this potential time bomb. Just get rid of the damn stuff and move on.

Gary O

Gary, I echo your sentiments on getting rid of the fuel hopefully taking any chances away of problems while on the road. It amazes me that some people will spend thousands on cosmetic items that do nothing but increase the looks and comfort in a coach but will bawk at spending a few hundred dollars on something that MAY save them untold frustration and possibly a large invoice stuck in some out of the way place one day. It costs us in Canada a lot more to replace the fuel but I would not even consider trying to use it (old  Diesel).
FWIW
John H

Well guys and gals -- here is the latest. While I wait the week for my batteries to be delivered, I first checked the fuel level with a stick, and I have a half a tank. So -- I'm guessing in the range of 65-70 gallons.

Then -- I used my MityVac pump with a long plastic tube, and a tie-rap attached to the tube along its long axis to make the tube more rigid. I then inserted this into the tank inlet until it stopped at the bottom of the tank. I pulled enough fuel to slowly fill the bottle.

A pic is attached that was taken after 15 minutes of settling. There was no "goo" or sediment of a contrasting color.

Oh, Gary -- no...there is no access plug on the fiberglass under-belly to get to a tank drain, so I'm assuming there is not any accessible drain.

I'm still fairly certain I'm going to have it pumped out, but I may first bleed the Gen-set feed line until it is absolutely clear diesel running into a catch can --  as Gary described, after having already changed the oil and fitting the new filters I bought for it. And then -- when the batteries are in -- fire up the Gen-set.

Or-- maybe bleed it, and try and start it on the fuel filter already in place.

Whattya think? -- If the Generator runs smooth on this fuel for a few hours , maybe I just add another 20-30 gallons of fresh diesel and some fuel conditioner and call it good?

I kinda expected to see other junk floating or stratifying into a layer in that sample.

I won't be taking this on a maiden voyage for some time anyway (where I could possibly develop a fuel-related breakdown). 

With best regards,

Michael 

Good plan. Gen set runs, Cat will be happy.

I also have a fuel problem.  However, my fuel sample is dark black/green with black soft specks in it. You cannot see the bottom of the white bucket with one inch of fuel.  Is this what algae looks like?

Wesley,

In a word, YES.

If you are near a marine area, look up "Fuel polishing".  They come to your vehicle (or more commonly boat) and put a suction line into the bottom of the tank.  They have high capacity pump and several fuel filters. The fuel goes through their filters and returns to the tank. 

Of course, if contamination is bad enough, it may be better to have the fuel removed and disposed of.

In any case, add a biocide (common item at marine stores).

Brett

To my knowledge #2 diesel fuel has a seven (7) year shelf life as long as it is in a sealed fuel tank and humidity can not enter the storage vessel.  (That means stored with a cap in place) This was prior to content changes, (Ultra Low sulfur). Other blends of Diesel range from 12 months to two years... :-\

Well, folks -- I called Foretravel today and gave them my build number. Now --- this does not make me love my new-to-me Coach any less, but it is not one of the rare ones fitted with the hydraulic retarder, after all. Despite the fact that it has the sticker up front next to the factory I.D. plate indicating it was so equipped, it is a Jake Brake Coach. There is no "R" on the end of the Allison stamped metal plate model number (even though I also found out from another source that Allison is notorious for those plates being wrong), but more indicative is that I couldn't see the large casting with the vane torque-convertor absorber on the tail of the Allison that is supposed to be there. So I was suspicious.

It might have been a simple human error, as the next Coach in the build sequence (4613) was fitted with the Allison retarder. A guy must have mixed up the two on the production floor and slapped the sticker on mine by mistake.

I also learned a valuable lesson about inspection of wiring last weekend (Do it twice). I had posted here that I removed the metal covers in the basement bays to inspect the wiring for any rodent damage as I was recommended to do. Whereas there was a lot of droppings in the tray floors, I did not see any chewed/damaged wiring -- despite moving the different looms away from each other and inspecting. This past Sunday I was on my back with a wet vac hose and cleaning out the droppings and disinfecting the area's -- and I decided to re-inspect. Glad I did before the new batteries all show up and I plan to put electricity into the Coach for the first time this Sunday.

I found one wiring loom that is different from all of the others. They are all in a ribbed hard plastic cable wrap. This harness was coiled up (vs. the others that were straight from front to the back) and sitting on top of all of the others, and it was wrapped in a fabric-like flexible jacketing. And indeed -- the mice did get through the jacket and chewed 4 or 5 of the wires apart. But it's an easy fix as it is only in a 4-6" long area, and I'll just go buy the right color wire to keep the coding correct and use crimp connectors to repair it.

Now wouldn't that be something if this helps clear up the mystery of why the Coach was abandoned in that RV Park (that was changing ownership) to begin with. What if those wires prevented it from starting ? (like they led to the CAT ECU -- from the main cockpit ignition switch, for instance), and the son of the original owner just was done with the whole deal on a complex machine he inherited, anyway. I'll take pics and post them of the affected harness this weekend. Maybe I can also look for that color code and location on the wiring diagrams I have to confirm this idea I'm thinking.

A 2 oz. mouse takes down a 15 ton Coach?. hmmmm.....

Anyway --- I continue to be more impressed as I poke around deeper each visit with the build quality of this machine. I'm loving it.

If all goes according to plan, this weekend it is fitting all new batteries, basic check-out of electrical systems, bleeding the Gen-set fuel feed and firing up the Powertech.

All the best,

Michael McLaughlin
 

You will find the jake works great also. I have one of the rare M11 coaches with a jake. It does just fine.
Never having owned a coach with a trans retarder, I've got nothing to miss!

I too think my Jake is more than adequate and it never overheats on a long down hill. If its good enough for a semi truck it should be good enough for a motorhome. I personally think using the service brakes more often is positive for overall safety.

You will be very happy with the Jake brake.  How many stage it it?

soldering those joints might be better in the long run than crimp connectors, and I am fond of shrink tubing as well for that finished look -available at radio shack

Good points, Tim

I have to pull out the soldering iron anyway to repair one of the tank pick-up wires. And -- shrink wrap is still good insurance.

PatC,

I don't yet know how many stages. This is a whole new platform for me. But I'm liking what I'm fast learning!

Michael

Look at the side of the upper heads on the engine and you will see the Jacob name embossed in the upper head. If just the one position switch in the switch bank labeled "retarder" it is generally wire for all 3 stages to come on at once. While no experience with the trans retarder, I like the Jake brake. Once you get it all going you will want to have the trans reprogrammed to have the trans downshift to 5th gear instead of the standard 4th, and then downshift manually to 4th if needed. Go back and do some Foreforum searching for topics under the jake brake and read up on it. There are some unique operating features that you must be aware of to get the most out of it. There are different operating modes that works under and most of them have been covered in past discussions. I put a little bumper on my switch so that I could find it quickly as I reached down to turn it on, see pic.
Good luck,
Rick

No crimp ever

I thought I did not remember a retarder.  The jake works really well on that  cat.  I sold 3176 marquis with a three position jake so i think its available.  customer preference software allowed the jake to work on cruise control btw.  2,4,6 cylinder mode could adjust the amount of jake for different uses.  Customers would tell me that they put both feet off the pedals and went 67mph up and down hills at 8.25mpg.  With a heavier coach and a towed car.  They loved it.

Cat always understated the hp.  I asked the cat man and he mentioned that some states tax trucks based on road horsepower.......

Plus foretravel on some engines were able to program their own power settings.  The series 60 demo must have been 600 or so.  Why? Empty coach would go zero to 60 in 18 seconds. Time yours and you will appreciate that number.

Like I said the issue was corrosion in the block.  Have a cat guy look at this.  For sure.

Also found a pair hydraulic bottle jacks, set in same spot works great also and provides the ability to keep body raised to the full height instead of letting the body down on the blocks.
FWIW only
Dave M

Thanks for the tips, and the real-world results people are having with the Jake. I had no idea there was that much flexibility, i.e. through re-programming.
Cool stuff!

Oh! -- and yes, I'll solder those connections instead of crimping. That ought to be interesting, laying on my back in the basement while soldering. Just maybe, because that particular wiring harness is coiled up -- I might be able to un-coil it and have enough slack to solder it laying on my belly instead.

Safe motoring,

Michael

Go look at this topic for solder sleeves.

http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16497.msg106117#msg106117 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16497.msg106117#msg106117)

There is clearly room for discussion here.  A good crimp is a very good way join wires.  Note, I said GOOD crimp.

That is an approved way on marine wiring where corrosive atmosphere makes a good connection more critical.  We are talking about using the proper size connector and the proper crimp tool using the correct "jaw" for that size connector.

True and I solder the crimp on top of it.  Airplane buddies suggestion.  Positive retention and solder. 

For instance the 95 M11 engines were 370 hp upgraded to 400hp by Foretravel. Some of those engine upgrades (including mine) were not reported to Cummins. I verified the upgrade at my local Cummins Coach Care when I bought the coach and had the file updated.

My jake (and all I've seen) was factory wired to be 'all on'. Its a pain to split it out.

I'm partial to the 4th gear pre-select.

Agree, always did both on aircraft, except "inline" connections

Caflashbob,

From what I've found in my picking around online, the "B" version of the 3176 CAT in the 1995 FT did not have the aluminum spacer of the earlier engines, nor the corrosion issue you speak of.

But I could be wrong, of course.

Safe motoring,

Michael

As to crimping wires I seem to remember a study on the best way and they found that there was a possible corrosion problem in soldered connections with the flux reacting with the tin and copper.  I agree with Brett.  A good crimp is the way to go and use the terminals with heat shrink sleeves containing adhesive.  You are not only making a good waterproof connection but should be reliving some of the strain on the wire by mechanically fastening the insulation to the terminal as well.

A proper crimped connection with heat shrink/adhesive sleeve is stronger than the wire itself.

Keith

Soldering wire, one uses rosin core solder, NOT ACID core solder, that is the corrosion source on wire.  I Admit, I never heard of rosin core solder causing corrosion.
A proper crimp using a clean wire, clean connector  and correctly crimped, (Not hammered, beat on, squeezed in a vise) then correctly soldered, then correctly use of correct heat shrink makes for a very fine mechanical-electrical connection. 
Proper crimping equipment is not cheap, but can make a beautiful crimp, some not so beautiful.
Crimp connectors did not happen until stranded wire became popular, Patent to Burndy Co for the crimp concept and others.
FWIW
Dave M

for info-- when I had a power problem with the Banks system last year and could not find the problem (mainly due to my back not allowing me to climb down into the engine area) I stopped in Asuza at the  company. They took 5 hrs to find the problem and it was a corroded/broken wire, so I told them to put a connector and crimp it. Well you should have seen the techs face, "Crimp it ? we do not do that, instead we replace the whole wiring loom. Banks does not do temp' repairs he said" so I told them I was not buying a whole new wiring harness and to bring my coach out of the shop and place it on the street. I fixed it myself once I saw were the break was and it has been fine ever since.
I fully expect now to have a problem with it soon after saying all this.
John H

Very good.  Yes it's a 3176B.  Now that you remind me.  Realiy nice driving coach.  That's why I memorized johns phone number as I knew sooner or later it would come around. By then I bought my 97 320 mid door.  That ones faster. 

Happy Holiday week to all!

Yesterday's work to revive the Coach had a good outcome. I ended up repairing 14 chewed-through wires from the rodent infestation. It was in the same loom of 8 wires that I mentioned earlier, but it traversed the two basement bays. I removed the side carpeted panels with the robertson screws so I could completely drop the galvanized steel panels -- and follow the loom all the way.

I'll send pics later. I fitted all the new batteries, but only connected the three chassis batteries. After pulling the dipstick on the generator and seeing the oil was a honey color as if it had been changed before the Coach went down, I decided to just try and start the unit. I was going to do the bleeding as recommended first, but thought I'd just give it go as-is.

I first held the pre-heat switch for only 7-8 seconds and heard the electric fuel pump clicking and building pressure immediately, and it started within 3 seconds on the starter, but died. I waited about 30 seconds, and held the preheat for a full 15 seconds this second time. It immediately started and ran smooth. No hunting or misfiring. I switched on the breaker (all the breakers in the bedroom panel are still off, master switch by the entrance door-on), and watched it for about 10 minutes -- to check for leaks and to let it come to temp.

I then went inside -- and initiated the leveling system. Because the driveway is on a nose-down slant, only the front airbags came fully up as it did it's leveling thing ( I have to learn a lot more about the system).

I then went around the interior, trying switches and every light came on. The inverter is switched off  (didn't think any reason to turn it on until I hook up the coach batteries). I'm trying to take little steps here.

So -- it was a huge day for me. I really do believe all of those severed wires in that loom are related to why this was a no-starter back in the RV Park it was removed from 18 months ago. The colors -- all in that common loom I remember are (purple, orange, 2-white wires, yellow, blue, grey, maybe tan). They look like the 20 gage wires that would go to a ECU or Transmission control unit. Oh! - when I hooked up the chassis positive terminal, I heard two relatively loud mechanical noises (each less than a second from each other) from the allison -- like a solenoid engagement sound. Any idea's what that might have been?

I let the gen-set run for 90 minutes, and it was silky smooth the whole time. So -- now I believe I've answered the question as to whether the fuel is still good -- and next Sunday (yeah, bummer is I can only work on it once a week -- until the kitchen re-model project I'm doing is complete) -- it's time to try and fire-up the CAT. Related to that, anyone know what the special socket is called on the 3176 crank pulley? ( It has a recessed, kinda female star-pattern to accept a special tool). Before trying to start it, I'd like to put a socket and breaker-bar on there, and just rotate the engine CW a couple of revolutions.

Also -- up in the drivers footwell area -- against the outside bulkhead, there is a grey plastic connector hanging there -- about 1.25" in diameter. I searched with a mirror and flashlight -- all contorted around the pedals and steering column to try and peer up there (under the transmission shift panel under the side window) to look for a connector with male pins that it would connect to, but now I'm thinking it may be a diagnostic plug-in connector for some system. Anyone know?

Wish I could send a pic, but don't have the ability to get them out of my camera where I currently am.

Anyway -- feeling ever more positive in bringing her back to life!

Happy and safe motoring,

Michael 

Sounds like you are progressing smoothly. I would not worry about turning the Cat engine over by hand, when the time comes just hit the key and I'm sure it will "Purr" right from the start.  I bought my '94 GV U300 from an estate here in FL and it had been sitting in a A.C. storage garage for several years - Batteries,Tires & I took off for Home, My most major problem was that where the battery cables were stacked too the terminal posts on the batteries, they had built up a hard black almost ceramic deposit in between the flat connectors, mine were bolted to the back of the battery terminal connector that then attached to the battery post. This was a difficult problem to find as these bolts were all tight and did not appear to have any problems. Thanks for keeping use up to date I really appreciate your adventure...... ^.^d

I would just bump it a few times with the starter. Good luck turning over a diesel that size with a 24:1 compression ratio (thereabouts...)

That plug you are talking about sounds like the diagnostic one. It usually is fastened up under the bottom af dash! Does it have 9 pins?
John H

Ours had also been sitting for a couple of years but was an instant start after I installed 3 new engine batteries. Diesel fuel may change formulation slightly after a few months but will run a diesel engine even if sitting for 100 years. I bought a cable CAT D-8 that had been sitting for over 20 years and it ran fine on the old fuel.

On the other hand, watch temps as thermostats can stick after sitting for a while. They can stick closed or only open part way. Tough with the generator as it does not have a temp gauge.

Check brake calipers and the pins for movement. One might stick after sitting. Have coasted to a uphill stop without applying brakes, set the parking brake and slid underneath to feel rotor temps after a few miles.

Open outside access door for the fridge and check for rodent nests before starting the unit on propane. You did say you had rodent wiring damage.

Make sure the air compressor shuts off at about 110-120 lbs and on again about 80 lbs. Parking brake cans should both release as the air pressure builds with the parking brake in the drive position. Have had to cycle the button several times with the pressure up to get the parking brake to release after sitting a long time on my Buffalo bus. With the engine idling, pressure should stay up and only gradually drop. Frequent cycling indicates an air leak somewhere.

Make sure to have exact replacement belts for alternator, hyd pump, etc. I lost two on the way home but had bought spares before I took off.

If the vacuum pump (in the nose) runs very much, move the heater temperature control a quarter inch to the right and that will stop it.

Pierce

I don't know for sure if it's the same for your '95 but my '91 wire looms for the Allison transmission have a black stranded vinyl weave on the outside with just a few strands that are yellow in color.  The looms for the engine (which is a Detroit, not a CAT) are all black which makes it easy to tell the two apart.  This might give you a little insight into what system might have been affected by the damaged wires.

I'd disable fuel supply to the CAT initially and run the starter a couple times to get oil circulating.  It would be great if you could see the oil pressure gauge move a smidge.

Thanks to all for the good advice. Looking at my wiring diagrams, it does look like the affected wires do go to the allison and the cat ecm, so with all of them repaired now -- I should be in good shape. I'll confirm that later when I get another picture of each and every color. That loom with the fabric vinyl jacket does take on additional wire colors from other branches of the loom as it moves down the Coach belly length. The mice/rats had a city built in there. I removed enough debris by hand -- made of paper, old rags, and twigs to fill a 5-gallon bucket four times, and an innumerable amount of old droppings that I vacuumed out. At some point down the path of this project, I'm going to find out where the point(s) of entry was and make sure they are sealed -- maybe using that expanding foam spray.

onward -- It is good advice to turn the engine over a few times without available fuel supply. Because I bought a new primary and secondary fuel filter set, and will change them out before trying a start -- I suppose just turning it over before doing the bleeding/priming of the fuel lines/filters will accomplish that. I did read that it was not recommended to use the starter for more than 30 seconds at a time or overheating or damage to the starter could result. So -- I'm not sure that time will allow any display of pressure to arrive at the front dash (the manual states this could take as much as one minute -- so I'm assuming it is a mechanical guage, which kind of surprised me. Is this information accurate?). It might be a worthwhile upgrade at some point to install a second one (electric with a sending unit) on the remote start panel instead of just the idiot light. Which brings up a question. The red light on that rear panel. How long, typically -- does it take after you first start the engine for that light to go out as the engine builds suitable oil pressure? I would think it would go out within a second of the engine starting.


And thanks for the advice on the fridge -- I had not checked that out to see if the rascals got in there.

One other thing I have to rectify before my next visit. The new chassis batteries are very nice. They even have gold plated posts with a knurling on the surface for a good bite. However -- the existing cable that connects the posts in parallel (on both sides) have the clamps of a poor design. I'm thinking maybe a place like West Marine may have a better quality product. These need over-tightening, and even then -- the one on the positive side kept popping up and loose on the center battery post in the bank. I also may install a quick-disconnect on the positive post back there. Something about my racing days that stayed with me is to always have the ability with one turn of a knob or lever to isolate ALL electrical power from a vehicle.

I know that some may think I'm approaching this in too conservative of a fashion. However -- because I don't know how long it sat since the last running of the mechanical systems, I'm going slow. It could have been two years, or it could have been five years. The last Ad I saw online where John (the p.o.) was trying to sell it -- had a picture in front of a house with the toad attached, and that Ad was dated 2007.

I do have a question related to power-washing the CAT. It's my intention to get it clean (lots of twigs, and brown evergreen branches, dirt, etc all over it) --  and first wrap plastic around the wiring looms that run along the box steel sections so not to get water into any connectors there -- but -- what about the other parts of the CAT. Is it safe to get down into the nooks and crannies with a high-pressure nozzle without screwing up something?. I want to get it clean, and then get some CAT-yellow paint to touch it up. And I was thinking of using some scotch-brite on the steel tubes from the turbo and charge-cooler, as the silver has corrosion showing through in a lot of places -- and spraying them with an aluminized silver paint. Surprising -- considering the light usage, but the ebb and flow of the marine-layer air out here in SoCal can do a lot of damage to steel surfaces that just sit -- if you are within about 5 miles of the actual coastline.

Safe motoring to all,

Michael McLaughlin   

Michael,

I am adverse to high pressure or steam cleaning any electronically controlled engine.

I know that it is quicker than using a roll of paper towels and WD40 or other solvent but you also run  the risk of doing damage to sensors or ECM. The electrical connections are water proof, but 1000 PSI water changes that.

Perfect, Brett!

That's what I needed to know. A wipe-down with degreaser and scotch-brite scuffing before paint, it is.

Hi Mike, Two things that I picked out of your last post, 1)  Make sure your pre-fill the fuel filters with good #2 diesel, they could air lock and your system will not prime . 2) I have always been advised to install any battery disconnect on the "Ground side" of the system. when the ground is broken there is no chance of a accidental short. Others may have a different opinion. ^.^d

I swear by Simple Green for cleaning mechanicals.

               Not exactly "post specific" but I noticed MOT has a 95 with the Cat 3176 that is very similar to yours. Might be worth a peek for anyone in the market.

        Dean

Too conservative, I don't think so. You are going to fit in just fine here.

Micheal, Its great to see someone doing things the RIGHT way in spite of the extra cost in time and effort that it may cost.  I have heard too many stories of folks who bought a MH, GASSED it up and ALMOST made it home.
When you get it up and running you will know for sure what you have and what you need to work on.
Good luck with the project and please keep us up to date, its good information and at times projects like yours can really be entertaining. :)
Gary B

 ::)

Anyone want to play "Stump the Band"?-- that is the "Foretravel Band". As you know, the progress to revive the beast had been going fairly smooth. Until today. I'm scratching my head over today's effort, and so I'll separate the items, so hopefully some of you have seen one (or more) of these and have some advice:

1.) Today I reconnected all of the batteries and fired up the gen-set and then flipped the boost switch on to charge both banks, BUT -- for the first time started the generator from the dash and not at the actual panel on the Power Tech. It started fine -- but showed no A.C. output on the panel above the door. Then -- when I shut it down, it responded from the dash rocker and shut down -- but the fuel pump continued to run.  Now -- strange enough, later in the afternoon -- repeating this process, but starting it from the control panel on the unit -- it did light up the above-door panel -- showing proper polarity and the needle showing 115 volts A.C. -- however, shutting it down from that panel still resulted in the fuel pump continuing to run.

Now -- the only change since I first got the gen-set to fire up and run smooth on the (then) questionable fuel -- is that for the first time today, I used the key in the ignition switch and powered up the electrical by turning the switch to the on position. That ignition switch is a new one fitted by somebody prior, as the original key vanished along with the first-owners son that inherited the Coach. Which leads me to #2.

2.) Turning the ign key on lit up the allison panel, showing the trans in neutral. It also started a "chime" sound, and lit-up lights saying "air pressure", "parking brake", and "check transmission". The CRT did not come on for the Audit system (no matter what position I put the rocker switch in - or rotated the brightness pot). But here's the kicker -- when I would turn the key to the off position and remove it -- all remained the same. I could not turn everything off with the key. Rotating the key to the start position would crank over the Cat, and it would build quickly to 40 psi on the dash gage -- just on the starter. The only way I was able to make everything turn off with the key was AFTER the gen-set suddenly decided to display A.C. output on the meter above the door, and after I powered down the gen-set via it's panel. Then-- turning the key off would make all lights extinguish as it should.  I did notice loose screws around the perimeter of the dash facia panels, they being loose -- as if someone has been in there before. I'm hoping there is not some kind of mother-board back there that is flaky -- and causing all of this. I'm hoping that there are some wiring issues, or bad relay's -- or something. Easier to deal with than a PCB with micro-cracks in the traces.

3.) I did think it strange a few days ago that with the gen-set running I could activate all functions of the HWH leveling system -- without the key being in the on position (not possible according to the manual). Well - today, it did not react that way, and in fact -- when I was finally able to get the HWH system to even react and power-up with the key in the "on" position, it showed the "travel" light on, even though the rear bags are completely deflated. Hmm....

so..to pause....the inserting of the key and turning it to the on position -- changed everything since my last visit. I'm strongly suspecting some wiring issues behind the dash. Anyone have a clue what to look for?

and now onto #4

4.) I've read the owners manual, and the second volume for the appliances, hardware, etc. And when it comes to priming the CAT, it is very specific. It says to rotate the knob 1/4 turn, the pumping will be difficult at first, then get easier -- and then finally harder again when you have all the air out of the system. Fine-- except for what I encountered today. First -- what I've identified as the  primary filter -- resides above the inboard-end of my chassis battery bank. It is a red-colored Baldwin canister with a knob on the bottom for drainage, and when I opened that  -- clean diesel ran into the plastic cup I caught it with. Moving on-- I'm looking for the secondary as described --and find what must be it -- attached to the right side (viewing from the back) of the engine ( and only possible to reach from the bedroom with the bed platform up). It is CAT yellow, with a yellow CAT filter below it, and it does have a knurled knob with instructions as to which way to loosen and tighten it. Problem is -- there is no pump function on this knob. If you continue to turn it in the CCW direction, it comes out in your hand as an assembly -- with a one-way drive cog on the bottom of it -- only about 2 inches long. I expected to loosen it, and have a knob with a shaft that would pop-up, and you would start the priming description as laid out in the manual. I looked down the bore, and did not see anything. Is it possible that the P.O. removed the pump portion for some reason.

and then, #5

5.) Not able to find any kind of priming mechanism as called out, anywhere I poked around, under/over/left side/right side -- I then looked at the sticker on the top of the CAT (couldn't read the metal plate around the edge to the vertical, because of corrosion -- I'll have to steel wool it, and get a magnifying glass down there )-- and it said 3176, with a manufactured date of 1993. What's up with that? This is a 1995 model year Coach.  Okay - built in 1994, but. I expected to see a designation of "3176B"

Is it possible the son roasted the original powerplant and got taken to the cleaners with an older transplant? 

So... scratching my head, but I really dig my heels in with a challenge set like this. You see -- I won't let a machine beat me (one never has), and I can be extremely tenacious to the point of obsession -- until I prevail. I knew this was going to be a difficult undertaking.

I was lulled into a confidence because it was going so smooth.

Here's hoping some of you can make it a little less painless.

Oh! -- maybe another clue. At my last visit, with the gen-set running, there was a loud "pop" sound from the back of the Coach at one point, kinda like the report from a small caliber hand-gun. I thought it was maybe a rear air-bag trying to seat, as I had the HWH in leveling mode at the time. But maybe it was something else, something electrical going off in failure.

A happy Thanksgiving wish to all, and safe motoring,

Michael

 

Michael,  1) Were you also connected to "shore" power? Are you aware that your dash board lifts up to access behind the face of the dash? Fuel pump running could be a stuck relay. other voltage (115 A/C) could be transfer switch @ the foot of the bed. Did you have 115 A/C when the meter was not reading any voltage? Ignition key may be miss-wired, may not be same as original equipment.
2)Miss wired - all could be associated with the replacement of the ignition key
3)Miss wired - all could be associated with the replacement of the ignition key
4)The fuel filter primer pump on my "CAT" truck engine had that same knurled knob, the directions are very specific; rotate 1/4 turn, that pump shaft is very tight and the first un-seating of the plunger is difficult, and awkward, I believe that by continuing to rotate the knob you un-screwed it from the shaft/plunger. Try again.....
Nothing sounds to serious just time consuming, you will need the wiring schematic for your coach and it should be available from Foretravel... 

Good Luck.... You will certainly know your "Coach" when you get it on the road !!!!!!!

Michael,

For the real answer on your engine, call the Caterpillar RV Hotline with your engine serial number: 877 777-3126.

The Caterpillar primer pump, on the Caterpillar-supplied secondary fuel filter IS the knurl nut.  Counter-clockwise enough so that you can move it IN-OUT....

With it sitting as long as it has, the gaskets on the pump may be bad.

All my experience with the pump is that it is a little hard for the first couple of strokes as the gaskets "clear themselves" of the pump wall and lube with diesel.  Then VERY easy until all the air is purged.  Then within a couple of strokes, from easy to very hard as air is replaced by fuel (fuel being non-compressible).

Michael, I'll let others speak to the CAT issues. 
The loud POP you heard may not be abnormal, on mine if it has been in storage with the bags deflated it will sometimes POP as the bags inflate and body raises, somewhere in it is a bushing that sticks I think, I have never been able to find it and there are no other ill effects.
Good luck
Gary B

Michael,  You might want to take a look at the members map to see if there are other owners near you.  I will bet that if they know you are nearby they would be willing to at least look over your shoulder as you work out the kinks in your project.  It never hurts to ask and I have found that FT owners are always willing to help out. 
If you will pile that coach on a flat bed and meet me in FL in JAN , I and a bunch of others will be more than willing to offer expert advice.  ( It is always more fun to screw with someone else's equipment than it is your own ) ;D One thing you have to remember is that the advice you get from me is worth EXACTLY what you paid for it. :) :)
Gary B

Maybe the incorrect ign switch see attached. Switch readily available at NAPA.
There is a connector that just plugs into the rear of the switch. If the connector has been changed then I would suspect some other problems. It should be apparent if it has been changed. See attached for further info. also see data copied from my engine data plate.

for switch removal
Foretravel ignition switch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOD0jyZSkDY#)

Good luck,
Rick

I finally have some pics to share regarding these issues I'm working through. First one is of that socket hanging down next to the drivers footwell area. I'm thinking it it a diagnostic socket. And oh! -- thanks for the tip about the dash pad hinging up. I had no idea, as it is not mentioned in any documentation in either factory foretravel binder I have. Sure makes it a lot easier. I did not see anything unusual there (Like damaged wires, cracked grounding bar, or anything else) regarding my issue yesterday of turning the key off, and everything still staying on.

Next few pics are of the ignition switch. Could someone give me the exact p/n for the GM switch for a '95 U300 -- so I can compare it? I'm hoping the numbers are different and a p.o. or the tow company put in the wrong replacement switch. Also are a few pics of the harness w/splices that somebody did -- going into the ignition switch.

Then -- the fuel primer on the filter housing. Unscrewing it CCW and you will end up with this assembly in your hand. I took a pic looking into the bore after removing this. No matter what I do -- this does not turn into a pump. I would have thought you loosen it that 1/4 turn, and the knob would move up with a shaft underneath it, and then you could start pumping . No dice. I may have to remove the entire filter housing and see what is going on.

And last -- are pics of the wires in that vinyl-jacket wrapped loom in the basement that I repaired from the critters chewing them apart, shown as damaged, and then after the repair, but prior to shrinking the sleeve over the gold-plated butt connectors I used.

Now that I have the exact colors of all the affected wires I found in the basement -- I can look at the wiring diagrams and hopefully fully identify where they go to.

Gerry, No -- I was not connected to shore power when these electrical gremlins started after turning the ignition switch on for the very first time. I've only used the the two new battery banks and the gen-set, since I got it up and purring.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!,

Michael

Michael,
That's some weird stuff going on.  As far as I know there's no circuit boards or black boxes you have to worry about.  It should all be hardwiring and relays.  It could be just one thing miswired - you never know.
Just some tidbits:
-There's an ignition relay http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=13978.msg84341#msg84341 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=13978.msg84341#msg84341) that actually powers up everything on the dash.  The ignition switch just supplies power to the coil of the relay.  Maybe this relay is sticking, but you can check to see if it working correctly with the ignition switch.  It's located right in front of the steering wheel under the "lift up" dash.
-I believe if you use the search function on the forum you can find info on the ignition switch p/n.
-You should have two notebooks comprising the owners manuals on the coach and one should have some schematics in the back.  I've attached the ones from my coach which will be similar but no doubt different for your coach.  I would start by studying these and tracing out circuits.  It good information to have anyway to understand what how the coach is basically wired.
-The symptoms with the generator are puzzling.  Maybe the voltmeter above door is powered with 12 volts?
- I highly doubt the engine was changed out.  Your coach was completed in July 94 (reading your drivers side VIN plate) so it's not surprising at all that the engine is a '93.  Even more so since the CAT engine was an option and maybe FT move through their supply slower.
I wish I was there to help - I actually enjoy this kind of stuff.  It's a great feeling when you find the culprit and get that "Ah ha" moment.
Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Thanks, John

Yes -- I have all the wiring diagrams that came with the Coach. I'll dive into it next week. Time now to nudge it all aside for a few days.

Worse case on the primer pump is to replace the whole manual pump.  There are two bolts holding it to the secondary fuel filter housing.

Any Caterpillar dealer should have one.

Brett,

That's what I'm thinking. I've been looking online for them. About $75-100.

I think this one is seized.

Place that plunger part of the fuel primer pump in some penetrating oil and let it soak, you've got nothing to loose, then try to work it while it is out of the tube. it should not be seized as it has been in fuel oil I think it is just very dry and they are very tight when they haven't been used.   

Thanks, Gerry -- I'll try that. It is a fact that it makes no sense that it should be seized, considering the low usage. But I've seen it before on foreign sports cars. That's why using the equipment keeps it young.

I did a search with my CAT number of 9CK 01469 and it did come up as a 3176B.

I'm thinking it is near the time to buy a CAT manual for the engine. Some things irritate me already -- about the stock install of the power unit. Like the placement of this priming pump. In the future is a little project to buy the extra length fuel line and re-locate the secondary filter housing/priming pump onto a bulkhead easily accessible from the rear. It's one thing to lift that access cover over the bed with no mattress present. It would be a PITA to do it with your bedding in place. And the owner is expected to do this every 6K miles for scheduled filter changes that require priming ?.... bad design in my opinion.

Again, I come from first an amateur -- and then professional racing machine background. We did things from sports cars to Indy cars with common sense paramount from a time point of view (serviceability), and reliability/robustness. Whereas I'm very impressed with a lot of the build-quality of this Foretravel, I've already seen many things that could have been done better. But then -- that will be half the pleasure as I get more immersed. Tweaking/modifying it is going to be a lot of fun.

Micheal, On my 8.3 Cummins I had a " PrimeLoc" installed.  Moved the filter from the block to next to the water separator, now can change both filters in a few minutes.  This is no longer available for the Cummins but something similar may be available for your cat.
Gary B

Gary,
hmmm...you have me thinking, now. I have many aeroquip fittings and some stainless steel braided hose that I held onto from the racing days. I might have enough for a system you describe, and would just have to fabricate the bracketry. It would be a much better deal to have the secondary filter looking right at you from the rear of the engine bay. 

I will have to check on the compatibility of the hose material. I used it for running oil to coolers, and racing fuel to the engines. But I don't know if it is compatible with diesel fuel.

I figure the Baldwin primary filter can stay where it is -- as down on my knees -reaching over the chassis battery bank to service that one is not so bad . I say that now-- before age 60 -- but might regret that decision later! :-).

I'm thinking it's lower location than the secondary on the CAT block is by design -- but could be wrong on that one.

Happy motoring adventures to all,

Michael

Michael, I think Cat also makes an electric priming pump,Brett is watching he may have a part number for it.

The manual pumps are pretty bomb-proof and simple. But, as you would suspect, don't use a plunger for many years and it or it's gasket may give up the ghost.  DO agree on moving the secondary fuel filter/primer pump to a more convenient location. Were it me, I would not consider electric.

Many Foretravels already have this in an easy to access location. Couple of fittings and some hose and you are in business.

Brett

Quote..
3.) I did think it strange a few days ago that with the gen-set running I could activate all functions of the HWH leveling system -- without the key being in the on position (not possible according to the manual). Well - today, it did not react that way, and in fact -- when I was finally able to get the HWH system to even react and power-up with the key in the "on" position, it showed the "travel" light on, even though the rear bags are completely deflated. Hmm....

I just read your post. If I am understanding your post correctly it sounds like your house battery disconnect is turned off. The leveling system on mine does not work without 12 volts. And the travel light on is normal with the key switched on. It doesnt matter if the bags are inflated. It just means the travel solenoid is on so it can pump up to travel height. Hope I got that all correct.

Regards, Mark Z

I think Mark Z. has correctly identified the "problem." Odd things can happen if you attempt normal operations with the master house switch turned off. We normally leave the switch on. If it goes off under normal conditions, we blame it on the dog after we identify the problem. :D

I just checked our coach and found the following behavior from the HWH leveling system:

Ignition Off, House Switch On: Travel light off, Manual or Automatic leveling works
Ignition Off, House Switch Off: Travel light off, No lights or operation from HWH panel
Ignition On, House Switch On: Travel light off (no pressure), Manual or Automatic leveling works, alarm sounds if pressure is down or system is not in travel mode
Ignition On, House Switch Off: Travel light on, No other lights or operation from HWH panel

Like Mark, "hope I got that all correct." I checked it all and I think I retained it long enough to create this post.

Well...another interesting day!  ( as a few of you have commented, this is one way to learn a lot about the Coach before it's road-worthy).

So this morning, I first re-connected both battery-bank negative terminals (after turning the inverter "off" at the unit). Entered the Coach, turned the master switch on -- turned the inverter on above the door. And I powered up one television, and also the micro-wave to confirm the A.C. function. Everything's good.

Then, I tackled this strange deal with the ignition switch not turning things off with the key "in hand". With the wiring diagram in front of me, and looking at the main ign. switch connector part of the drawing -- I saw something not quite right. All the wires are there, the proper color in the proper location -- except one. The black female spade terminal was not in the connector slot where it should have been according to the drawing. It was "one-off" in location . So I removed it with a teeny screwdriver, put it where it was supposed to be in the connector, plugged it back into the ignition switch and turned the key to the "on" position. Everything powered up, and then I turned the key "off" -- and lo and behold -- everything powered off. Hmmm.. somebody has been doing strange things in the checkered past the Coach has seen.

The clicking from the gen-set that I thought was the fuel pump (with everything off, the gen-set at a standstill -- was actually coming from behind the control panel -- like a relay clicking). It no longer does this since addressing the ignition switch wiring. However - I have had to use the breaker re-set button on the panel a few times now to get output from the generator (as then confirmed on the meter above the door). So -- that relay or whatever was clicking behind the panel, might have been weakened -- and will need replacing.

Okay..good. Time to move on. I fired the CAT on starting fluid for about 20 seconds (hooray! -- the first noise out of it since I acquired the beast). Then, after adding 10 gallons of fresh diesel -- I moved onto Gary O's recommendation of pressure bleeding via the main fuel tank (remember - I've a dead priming pump). With an assistant at the fuel neck, rag around the inlet and an air nozzle -- I first cracked the petcock on the primary filter and a steady stream of clean fuel ran out -- BUT-- then what caught me completely by surprise, a steady stream was also spraying down on the ground from a source right above the starter -- at the allison bellhousing-to-CAT block joining area, and where as it turns out -- is the connection of the fuel line to the inlet of the lifting pump. Ah Ha!

With a 1 inch wrench on the fitting there, it was loose. Unbelievable! -- who the heck has been working on this thing? Well -- that would explain air entering the system. (Still doesn't explain a frozen priming pump on the secondary filter housing, but) . I tightened the fitting, we re-pressurized, no further leak at that fitting --  and so moved onto the connection at the secondary filter housing  being cracked open (the outlet of this filter, couldn't get a wrench on the inlet) -- and...nothing.  Which makes sense in that the pressure normally seen there is after the lifting pump, and the pressure we were putting into the system via the tank inlet was 10X lower (if I understand it correctly the lifting/fuel pump delivers 90 psi to that secondary filter)

So -- here's the next series of moves:

1.) Change both filters (had not done that yet-- thinking I may have been able to fire it on the existing filters, and then change them out)
2.) Fill the filters with fresh fuel as the procedure calls for.
3.) Buy a new priming pump, remove the two bolts that hold it in place on the filter housing and fit the new one with a new gasket.
4.) Work the pump as called for to achieve a bleeding.
5.) Fire up the CAT.

Oh! -- as Gary O sent me via e-mail a concern about the electrical issues, and a potential electrical fire danger -- NO -- I never leave the Coach in-between these sessions of working on it -- with any batteries connected. I kill off all power each time -- after first letting the gen-set run on the "boost" setting to re-charge for an hour. It seems like common sense to me -- that until my confidence level is high enough that everything is working as it was originally designed to, I'll take the safest route.

The fun continues, and I'm learning ton's !!

Safe and happy motoring,

Michael

I almost forgot!

Those of you with a similar layout of how the fuel feed line enters the engine bay might want to check this area out for integrity. for this was not properly engineered. My line has small cracks in the outside surface, and a kink in the hose as it tries to make the radius to the lift pump -- for two reasons. One -- it is too close to a heat source (the charge-cooler tube leading from the turbo is very near), Second, this fluid line has no strain relief. There should have been a heavy bracket at the transition into the rear bay with through male fittings. In addition, the line going to the lift pump inlet should have had a 45 degree fitting at the pump-end, instead of just bending the hose to mate up.

Something to add to my growing list.

Cheers!,

Michael

 :o Mike,  !!!  Please DO NOT USE  STARTING FLUID TO START YOUR ENGINE !!!  If you need to assist with any thing spray  "WD 40"  -  either (starting fluid)  will cause major damage to your engine....... :o

WoW! -- I thought it was just an absolute "never-do" to use ether when the engine is hot. Well... I hope I didn't hurt anything. I found a genuine CAT prime pump today. It should be here Thursday, and so next weekend -- I hope to fire 'er up.

 ::) Hey Mike, Did you try putting that pump knob and cap in a vise. Clamp the cap and then using plyers carefully, see if you can get the knob to turn/rotate inside of the cap while it is off of the cylinder. That knob and shaft should rotate within the "Cap" that screws onto the cylinder... ^.^d

Mike,

I have owned several brands of diesel engines including our Detroit, Nissan, MBZ, VW and Case. The VWs and the Detroit will prime themselves with the starter. The Mercedes are only a bit more difficult but the Case can be stubborn without getting all the air out. The big secret will all diesels is to find all the highest points in the fuel system and then, cracking the line then pumping until you no longer see any bubbles at the fitting. With the Case, I have even slightly cracked one high pressure line at the injector and then operated the starter until it started, turned it off and tightened the fitting. This was with a rotary pump so your's should be easier with your Bosch style inline pump.

I don't operate the starter for more than 20 seconds and then if it has not started, I let it sit for a few minutes to allow it to cool.

There should be web sites with diagrams of your engines's fuel system with the air bleed points indicated.

Don't think you did any harm to your cold engine with the starting fluid. You could plug in your block heater for several hours before you try and start it. The warm engine will crank faster, compression/combustion chamber temp will be higher and the fuel spray pattern will be a little finer so it should reduce the cranking time and load on the starter. Several injectors will get pressure before others and with an engine that is a little warm, it will start to run on perhaps three cylinders a little sooner until the remaining injectors are primed and the cylinders start to fire several seconds later.

Pierce

A couple points I feel need mentioned about now:
1-We never use either to start an any engine, First figure WHY it is a problem to start, we will use carb cleaner, much less violent. We use the 2+2 Berkebile carb cleaner, also a fairly good paint removed.

2-Engines that have been run out of fuel, from my experience, the 2 cycle DD is one that takes understanding, once the fuel pump is dry, you have to push fuel thru the system to get fuel into the gears of the fuel pump, (dry gears do not pump fuel), once you have a wet pump, yes it will force fuel thru the rest of the system and start fine with enough battery and starter.
Cummins and Cats are much easier to start, and just changing fuel filters, as long as you fill the new filter prior to installing, start engine, bring rpm to about 1200-1500 until if pushes fuel thru out the system and gets rid of any air pockets (about 45 seconds)
If a Cummins is run out of fuel, after you refueled, you will need to bleed the air, first at the pump, then at the injectors (B & C engines). There is many other ways of doing all this, but this is the quickest & simplest.
Brett can tell you all the info on the Cat fuel bleed setup, mostly use primer pump and open valve to allow air to escape.
Enjoy
Dave M

Gerry,

I've decided to not mess with the old pump anymore. I found a genuine CAT one in a sealed bag and original box on eBay for $55 (p/n 105-2508), and it's coming from Las Vegas. I should have it next Thursday. There were plenty of cheaper after-market ones popping up there, but I wanted an o.e.m. one. A lot of online searching here in the L.A. area did not come up with a "walk-in" location to buy one. Even though I'm sure a CAT dealer would stock it.

So -- new primary and secondary filters that I also already have, priming it, and it should fire up next weekend. The only unknown is that feed line into the lifting pump. It didn't leak when I tightened it (as I stated earlier -- it was actually only snug, not tight!) and then re-pressurized through the tank inlet, but I'll know more when it is running.

It's been like back-tracing through a "who dunnit" detective story, trying to find the clues and circumstances that led to it being a "non-runner" in that R.V Park in Irvine. A change of ownership of the Park relegated it to being moved to a tow yard -- where it sat for another 18 months before I found it through Craigslist. But it's slowly coming back to life and I'm happy with the results to date. The next check-out after getting the CAT going, is the Allison.

For you with the same vintage of Coach, is it normal when you first turn the ignition on and the red lights come on -- for one of them to say "Check trans"? -- I'm thinking it's just a check of the system, and it will extinguish when the engine actually starts (like a oil pressure idiot light does). Or -- it could be a stored fault code in the trans control unit. The fluid level is fine, and the color of the fluid is good. Of course -- I will change the filter before actually driving it any distance. Just hoping it is okay, and that when they moved it -- it was on a flat bed-- like the one they delivered it to me on. They said that was the case, BUT -- they also told me they removed the prop shaft (after I asked them if they did), and getting underneath there I could tell that was not the case.  Yes, I know I can take it to a Allison shop and get a data dump from the on-board computer, but that's in the future. 

Michael ^.^d

Dave,

Pumps with gears are known as "positive displacement" pumps and are either rotary or reciprocating as apposed to a centrifugal pump and unless they have a lot of wear or bad seals, they should be able to easily suck fuel from the tank to the the engine. A gear pump in good condition can suck enough of a vacuum to bring water up 25 feet at sea level while a centrifugal pump needs to have water flowing through it before it can lift any water.  The same applies to diesel fuel but the lift distance would be different.

The roots supercharger on all DD 2-cycles is also positive displacement while the turbos on all of our Foretravels are in essence, centrifugal pumps.

Fortunately, air is compressible or a turbo would not work on top of the supercharger on the DD 2-cycles.

Good article on DD 2-cycle fuel pumps and priming at this marine forum: Detroit Diesel fuel pump prime (6-71,8V71, etc), by Genesis (http://www.samsmarine.com/forums/showthread.php?1500-Detroit-Diesel-fuel-pump-prime-)(6-71-8V71-etc)-by-Genesis

Pierce

RE, Transmission light; Mine may flash on @ start up. but goes out almost instantly. other warning lights; Low air, level system, T.V. Antenna up, I think that's all....