Foretravel Owners' Forum

I would like to hear from anyone on how to properly use the retarder on my coach.  I have never had a coach with a retarder.  I have 8.3 Cummins with a 3406 Allison trans.  It is a 1999 U270.
Thanks for the help,
Jerry

On mine I just turn the retard on and anytime I hit the brakes it kicks in..Thats all

Jerry, does your retarder have a "joy stick"?  Maybe they were standard in 1999.  Friends I have with that year do have them, as does my 2001.

You would normally have the joy stick pushed to or in the full forward position and the toggle switch pushed down, which turns on the system.  You can push the back of the switch down to turn off the retarder function.  You will know that it is working when the panel switch button lights up when the retarder comes activates, does some stopping of the coach.  It does not stay lit except when that is happening.

If you have it turned on and the retarder joy stick in the full forward position, some call that the zero position, then the retarder should only only activate (engage) the retarder when you apply the brake.  That allows you to coast without the retarder slowing your speed if you just let off of the throttle.  If however you have the retarder pulled back one stop, then when you let off the throttle, the retarder activates to begin to slow the coach even though you do not press the brake.

If you are slowing and press harder on the foot brake, the retarder I am told works harder the more pressure you put on the brake pedal.  You can also increase its stopping power by pulling back more on the retarder joy stick as you are stopping, which I have done once or twice when I needed to stop more quickly.

Well, that is how mine works.  Others may offer better instructions or yours may be different, so explore.  I recommend that you access the beamalarm.com web site, I bet Barry has more technical info there of what is going on, how to use it.  And while you can also use the retarder almost by itself with minimal brake application, it is good to use the brake only at times just to keep them from glazing, I am told.  Mike

Jerry,
In '98 and on at least some '99's, the U270's had the retarder transmission but the control joy stick was not factory installed.  Some, but not all FT sales/service stores installed them upon initial sale.  We purchased through the Tampa store and Vickie made sure it was included at no cost in our sales agreement.
It's easy to add if you don't have the joy stick.  And it makes life so wonderful!
Neal

What flavor is a 3406 transmission, have not heard of that model, Only 3406 model I heard of is the Cat 3406 engine, so Just wondering where I went wrong ?
Tnx,
Dave M

Dave,
Mine is an MD3060R.
Not sure what the 3406 is.
Neal

Neal,
Confirm for sure on the MD3060R, just wondered if I missed something about the 3406.
The 3060 makes perfect sense,
Tnx
Dave M

Most likely a typo.

Our 1997 U295 did not have a joy stick for the retarder. MOT installed the joy stick at the initial service after we bought the coach directly from the original owner. We have used it to advantage in mountainous terrain.

Sorry about that I meant 3060 not 3406.  Oh, I do have the joystick.
Thanks everyone for the info.
Jerry

The retarder is on the output side of the transmission, therefore how much retarding it can do is totally dependent on the speed of the vehicle.  The braking effect increases with vehicle speed.  It's a vaned rotor in a vaned housing with a variable amount of transmission fluid from none to full.  When the rotor is turning it heats up the fluid.  Maximum braking effect and temperature occurs with a housing full of fluid.  At slow enough speeds the housing can be full of fluid and it will not overheat.  At high speeds the fluid can overheat with only a partial amount of fluid in the housing. There are varying opinions on how high the temperature can be.  I personally try to keep the temperature from exceeding 250 although I doubt if much harm would be done with a short excursion to 300.  Your transmission manual may state the max temperature.  One has to take quick glances at the temperature gauge and at the same time keep the coach in the middle of the lane on that curving road.

What works for me when descending a mountain or long hill is to select about 1/2 on the joy stick if I am traveling at 40 - 50 mph.  From experience I know that more joy stick will soon result in the transmission temperature being too high.  This is a good starting point to begin with, then you can add or decrease joy stick position to control braking effect and/or temperature.  How steep the road is and how fast you can safely go will determine which gear you need to use.  You just have to vary the gear selection, speed,  and joy stick position to keep the transmission  temperature from overheating.  Even if you have selected a lower gear than 6 the transmission can still and will upshift to prevent an engine overspeed that can destroy the engine.  Also the retarder will empty if the temperature becomes too high for too long to protect the fluid.  Both conditions result in a loss of braking effect when it is really needed.  This will really surprise the driver and his initial impression will be that something has failed.  The only recourse is to get on the brakes really hard to slow down so that a lower gear will be selected.  The transmission is smart enough that it knows to downshift when you are applying the brakes.  With the transmission in a lower gear it will not upshift until you apply throttle or engine rpm becomes too high.  Manually selecting a lower gear usually results in a downshift unless engine rpm is too high.  Also a manually selected lower gear will keep the transmission from upshifting  above that gear unless rpm becomes too high.  All this applies to the 6 speed Allison World transmission.  Other transmissions may be different.

Hope this helps.

I am sure everyone has an opinion on what works best for themself, depending on the mtn. length and steepness changes my approach to the issue. On I-64 in WV, there is a mtn. that is said to be 6 miles long and up to 7%, where I drop to 4th gear and run 2nd notch on joy stick, about 45-50 mph, this keeps the oil temp under 220 deg. and while I charge up most mtns. the down side is more sanely approached.
Going down a mtn. out of control with smoking/no brakes and unable to keep under control, seems little stupid, but it happens to alot of desk jockies that make the news.
Do what makes you smile.
Dave M

Maybe I missed it, but no one mentioned that with the retarder "on" the foot brake has three positions which affect the amount of braking from the retarder.  The braking effect is increased with brake pedal travel.  The more pressure applied to the brake pedal, the more retarder braking in 1/3 intervals.

Also your brake lights should be on when the retarder is retarding.  If you keep the retarder on in traffic every time you come off the accelerator the brake lights will come on.  Drives the guy behind crazy!

The amount of retardation is dependent upon vehicle speed.  You will feel greater apparent retardation at higher speeds until it becomes almost nil at 5mph approx. and drops out completely at about 2 mph.  If you use it all the time you will notice an apparent increase in braking effort just before you stop.  That's the retarder dropping out.

Just watch your temp gauge for the retarder on long downhill grades.

Here is the link to Barry's great site on all things Foretravel.

Transmission Retarder Operation - How Does It Work (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/transmission_retarder_operation.html)

Also don't leave it on on slippery roads or on ice as you will not have complete control of braking effort when you will most need it.

Keith

Brake lights are wired differently with respect to retarder application. Application of retarder without using the service brake pedal does not light the brake lights on our coach. Application of retarder does light the brake lights on some other coaches. Whether the retarder lights the brake lights has an affect on interaction between the cruise control and retarder.

There is a thread that includes interactions of retarder, brake lights, and cruise control here: http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=15543.msg98408#msg98408 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=15543.msg98408#msg98408)

Our coach has the brake lights on with retarder operation.  Good way to get rear ended by an inattentive driver if they don't.

Keith

Jerry, to follow up on our phone calls and give you an easy way to get to this document, I hope this will  link here.  Maybe it will help us continue our calls and dialogue about these coaches.  In the Photos/Files library of the ForeForum you should be able to connect to this document.


Then there is another document that Barry Beam kindly put into his library, I wrote it as an operations manual to supplement that which came with our coach, something to try to help me as a newbie turn quickly to some topic while on the road.  I put these in a three ring binder and can send you a copy of that if you wish.  Otherwise you can access this on Barry's Beamalarm site below.  Be sure to check all data, be sure it fits your coach and engine (e.g. RPM for an M11 cummins will be different from an 8.3 if I noted cruising speed typical rpm.  You need to make the manual your own, this one is just a guide of possible topics)

Guide to using a Foretravel (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/guide_to_using_a_foretravel.html)

Now, as to the Mode "switch" we discussed, re on the shift panel, when you start the engine, the transmission will go to Default performance mode.  If you push that you can switch to an economy mode.  I stay in Performance and some take exception with that.    Brett Wolfe's review of this mode business is outstanding, it was in March 2012 Family Motorcoaching Magazine.  This is the web site where you can download the article if you are an FMCA member,
Allison Transmission Mode Button (http://www.fmcmagazine.com/back-issues/2012/march/6972-allison-transmission-mode-button)

I hope you enjoy that 1999, you just need some time off from work to learn it.  You call me anytime, I have the 2001 and two good friends here got 1999s, one with the 8.3 as you and I know he would want to connect up with you.  That coach should do a great job for you.  Cheers, and have a blessed week, Mike

This video from Allison covers several of the common questions that come up on the MH3000 - MH4000 transmissions, you may find it useful as well.

http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=1829;dl (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=1829;dl)