Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: wayne m on November 12, 2012, 06:31:42 pm
Title: dometic rant
Post by: wayne m on November 12, 2012, 06:31:42 pm
this rant starts many years ago when my dometic fridge went out in my u280. then a few years later the cooling unit went out in my u295, which I replaced with a rebuilt cooling unit that lasted eighteen months.
I then spent four thousand for a stainless dometic ndr1292. that was three years ago, and now this cooling unit has a blockage. the coach spends half of the time at home in a garage, with the fridge turned off. am I the only one who is spending a thousand dollars a year to keep my dometic absorption fridge running for six months a year?
I could go on about their beyond cheap eggshell thin air conditioner covers or their blatant rip off regarding the change from four button to five button temperature controllers just to name a few.
I wonder if dometic is responsible for the trend to the all electric coach?
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: PatC on November 12, 2012, 06:59:35 pm
I wonder if dometic is responsible for the trend to the all electric coach?
I think Norcold got that honor from everything I've read.
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: J. D. Stevens on November 12, 2012, 07:23:36 pm
To the best of my knowledge, the Dometic refrigerator in our 1997 coach is original equipment. The cooling unit failed one year ago. I replaced the cooling unit with a new unit from RV Cooling Warehouse. The cost for the cooling unit was about $700. I replaced in by myself.
We leave the refrigerator on all the time. It operates on 120VAC most of the time. I think the previous owner left it operating all the time. The unit was a "man cave" when it wasn't "on the road."
I consider 15 years of constant service from an appliance to be acceptable service. I've been told the replacement cooling unit is of higher quality than the original unit.
Obviously, your experience is likely to be different from mine.
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: John Haygarth on November 12, 2012, 07:24:21 pm
Mine was a Dometic before I threw it out and went electric. The previous owner had replaced the cooling unit in 2008, just before I bought it in 2009 and cost 1300 + labour to install. The electric was $350 and I put it in, and it gave me a great storage idea next to it with the left over space. John H
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: thisldu on November 12, 2012, 08:02:19 pm
My Dometic fridge went out after 15 years of good service. Woke up one morning with ammonia smell throughout the coach and knew it was done. The quote from FOT wasmore than $3000 to replace, so I bought an Avanti apartment style all electric fridge and installed it myself for less than $600. Had more room than the old one inside, and had enough room on the side for some 9" wide shelving. Even used one of the dometic wood door inserts for a door to hide the shelves. So long Dometic!
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Jim Frerichs on November 12, 2012, 08:20:10 pm
Wayne,
I agree with you about some of Dometic problems, but at least there now is an inexpensive solution to the 4 button thermostat failures besides upgrading. Look in the Foreforums commercial section.
Quote
I could go on about their beyond cheap eggshell thin air conditioner covers or their blatant rip off regarding the change from four button to five button temperature controllers just to name a few.>
wayne macauley 98 40' 295
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Don Hay on November 12, 2012, 09:33:50 pm
My last Dometic was only 6 years old to the month went the coils went south. Previous one lasted 13 years. One wonders if they are changed philosophies and are deliberately building "planned obsolescence"..
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Jim Frerichs on November 12, 2012, 10:15:05 pm
I was told by an engineer that several years ago Dometic reduced the amount of sodium chromate in their refrigerator lines due to worries about its high toxicity... EPA and all. And because it is the sodium chromate that reduces rusting of the piping, now more owners are having trouble with clogging of the lines. The only suggestion was to add some back to the system. Manufacturers do not seem to be willing to do this and obviously not many of us will be able to either. No further suggestions were given. Sad, huh!
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: drcscruggs on November 13, 2012, 08:32:13 am
Agree with J.D., His advice to leave it on all the time (120v) is sound. I have a friend with a SOB, I was complaining that I had spent a lot of money on repair for my dometic on this and other motor homes. His advice was turn it down to 1 (lowest setting) and just leave it on all the time. The drawback is there is a cost of the electricity to power. The pluses include (for me) is that I have not done another repair since instituting this practice, there is always a cold beer in there if I desire one (and kept stocked), and it is always ready to load and go (tho I do turn it to a colder setting). Now having said that I agree with John that sounds like if it (should I say when) it goes, I think an AC compressor unit is next. I can buy one of those for less than the repair of the dometic. Just my opinion. Charles
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Carol Savournin on November 13, 2012, 10:56:20 am
I would like to know why these genius designers of refrigerators could not manage to create models with the same dimensions as previous models ... necessitating dramatic remodels of cabinetry along with the purchase of a new refrigerator! When our fridge fails ... or before ... we will replace it with an electric model that will be easy to match, dimension-wise.
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Patricia on November 13, 2012, 11:06:16 am
When our fridge fails ... or before ... we will replace it with an electric model that will be easy to match, dimension-wise.
We would also like to do that... the problem is finding a well (or even decently) rated electric model that will fits easily into the space vacated by the Dometic, that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, that remains closed while underway, and that has the same/similar cf capacity as our NDR1492! Now, is that asking for too much?! :o
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: John Haygarth on November 13, 2012, 12:18:15 pm
Pat, we replaced our 2 door with the whirlpool and find it sufficient (although we do not full time), but still have a lot of food in it while travelling. You most probably saw my conversion over and the extra storage I have in the slide out pantry now, and as this fridge operates on its own inverter i installed (as per Barries Beamalarm mod section) I find it works very well. The switch also gives you the alternate shore power option. You should not worry too much with the work involved doing this change as it is fairly straight forward and I would be more than willing to help you with tips etc should you decide to actually do it. I also designed and fitted a very simple door lock for travelling that is very discreet and effective. John H
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Chuck Pearson on November 13, 2012, 05:20:22 pm
Giving up the propane option is a big deal to me. Once you go all electric then you're pretty much committed to going all out on battery bank and solar, right? No small cost there and I'll be surprised to see PV panels on a coach that perform optimally for 15 years. Reading between the lines I hear people saying that the domestic refrigerators are somewhat of a bear to keep up with the cumulative electrical demands.
Of course if your coach is plugged in pretty much every day it's a no brainer. Buy the $400.00 Westinghouse. Other than that the Amish replacement unit looks like a pretty good option. Now sure as God made little green apples I'll be punished for saying this, probably with a smell of ammonia next time I open the coach, but my 14 year old Dometic works great, never turn it up past level 3 even in the hottest, unshaded Tx. summer.
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: John Haygarth on November 13, 2012, 05:38:45 pm
By the sounds of it Chuck you are pretty lucky yours is still good. I doubt many of us will have the present coach 15 yrs so we do not worry about longitivity. I do not plug my coach in much and although it is a short time only since installing the electric fridge I have had no problems running off the solar charge. We have had 2 trips of a week at a time and no plug in to shore, and, my coach sits outside on solar. We had a friend staying in it using the fridge and lights etc and the sun kept the batteries fine. I am aware that so far these are not real tough tests so we will see this winter how it all turns out. John H
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: philtravel on November 13, 2012, 06:29:10 pm
Very pleased with our Residential electric. More capacity, consistently cold (and not frozen) and it weighs less. Would never go back!
OK, The old Dometic was 59"x36"x24" Model#NDR1282 Ser.# 72900011. Anyone know how to decipher the date code?
The new, Samsung RSG257AARS Cap. 24.5Cu FT. Overall depth is 29 3/16" including the handles. The box without the doors is 24" deep. The handle stick out far but I think we will live with it. I they bother us I may make some smaller handles. The width is 35 3/4" The height is 68 5/8". It weighs 254LBS. seems lighter than the old Dometic! It claims 445 KWH/year,energy star
I said I bought at Lowes? (guess I was reading other posts) as I bought it at Best Buy for 1770.00 they do price matching so I will check and see if they have it at Lowes seeing that others have paid less. I suspect they are different models as it was on sale when I bought it.
I am still figuring out if I should seal the side vent or let it breath and seal around the refridge or seal the vents from outside and let the top and sides breath into the interior space? What are others doing?
photos in this post http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=13454.msg104686#msg104686 (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=13454.msg104686#msg104686)
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: John Haygarth on November 13, 2012, 08:22:29 pm
I sealed around the front outside edge and made a 2 part 1" foam panel for the lower back vent that drops into place and stops cold air from entering and getting into coach. I can remove it in seconds if the weather is warm. I have left the roof vent open as before. So far ok. John H
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Jerry Whiteaker on November 14, 2012, 12:46:40 am
I'm fairly sure the Norcold in my coach was the original from Aug 1995 (year built), and it was still working when I replaced it in Jun 2011. I'm not sure what previous owners did, but it was only on when I used the coach. I replaced it because I did not want it to fail while on a trip and the interior was beginning to look worn, but it may have lasted another 5 years. I replaced my SOB refrig after it failed at 15 yrs of age. I think the one thing you cannot do is operate the unit off level with the coach not moving for longer than 15 minutes. Most refrigerators are mounted on the side of the coach which means the fore and aft level is critical and the longer the coach, the harder it is to level. Many camp sites in some of our parks are not level enough to allow proper leveling of the coach. One must be aware of this too when parking for lunch at a restaurant or shopping. I replaced mine with some help from a friend. Cost about $1300 from PPL in Houston. Had to remove a side window for the exchange.
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Brad Metzger (RIP) on November 14, 2012, 07:23:17 am
My first coach was a 1989 U-300 40ft ,loved it , and no fridge problems ,next was a 2003 40 ft 320 no problems,next was 2006 40ft Phenix with a double door fancy fridge that was terrible ,MOT replaced it on warrenty, still terrible would not freeze in freezer side , would not keep proper temp on fridge side . MOT adjusted and adjusted and adjusted------never did work right no matter what .We put up with it for about 2 years till we bought our now 2010 ,45 ft Phenix with a residential -----end of mess .Next coach and forever it will be residential. I'am too old [39] to deal with anything else. Brad Metzger
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Chuck Pearson on November 14, 2012, 10:01:00 am
Now it's looking like the satisfaction factor with the residential refrigerators is pretty high, and folks are not looking back. Maybe I need to rethink this.
Chuck
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Patricia on November 14, 2012, 10:40:03 am
Pat, we replaced our 2 door with the whirlpool and find it sufficient (although we do not full time), but still have a lot of food in it while travelling. You most probably saw my conversion over and the extra storage I have in the slide out pantry now, and as this fridge operates on its own inverter i installed (as per Barries Beamalarm mod section) I find it works very well. The switch also gives you the alternate shore power option. You should not worry too much with the work involved doing this change as it is fairly straight forward and I would be more than willing to help you with tips etc should you decide to actually do it. I also designed and fitted a very simple door lock for travelling that is very discreet and effective.John H
John, thank you for your support and kind offer - not to mention the fact that I look at the images you posted of your refrigerator modification and sigh like a lovesick teenager! :P The side pantry and the fact that you kept the two cabinets beneath the refrigerator are fabulous! ^.^d
However, our waffling and pondering the pros and cons continue - as in:
- the NDR1492 is working well with no problems... BUT, it is 9.5 years old - IF it fails or starts having problems... in order to continue using the existing NDR1492, the cooling unit could be replaced (and a fire suppression unit could be installed to assure peace of mind) - the NDR1492 has 14 cu ft of capacity; the Haygarth and Barry & Cindy unit (WRT111SFAB (http://www.whirlpool.com/-%5BWRT111SFAB%5D-1021176/WRT111SFAB/)) has only 10.7 cu ft... almost 25% less... while I know YMMV, we are in the coach 5+ months a year, and that is a significant loss of refrigerated/freezer storage (and I maximize that 14 cu ft!) - while the Haygarth and Barry & Cindy Whirlpool WRT111SFAB is no longer available at Lowe's, I see that Home Depot and Best Buy have it for $449 (free shipping at both sites) - the side pantry is phenomenal (I can always use more storage!), but we do very well with the pantry storage we have (there's no credenza, just floor-to-ceiling shelving) - the loss of the two cabinets below the refrigerator would be a deal-breaker; one cabinet holds our laser printer (which we use without having to lift it), and the other holds the central vac hose and accessories - George is quite handy, and could certainly follow your lead, John, with this modification... however, he currently doesn't have the woodworking tools (saw, etc) that such a project necessitates (while Dave Flanagan's crew is certainly capable of replicating the "Haygarth modification," that would be a significant expense at FOT!)
So, there you have it... what to do... what to do... the waffling and pondering continue... :))
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Jim Frerichs on November 14, 2012, 10:47:22 am
Chuck,
Like you, I wonder how much solar power one needs to keep the batteries up with an all electric refrigerator. I have 700 watts and that is barely enough for Quartzsite dry camping with morning generator use. A residential refrigerator would require more solar - such as a total of 1200+ watts? What do others think.
Quote
Now it's looking like the satisfaction factor with the residential refrigerators is pretty high, and folks are not looking back. Maybe I need to rethink this.
Chuck
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Dave Katsuki on November 14, 2012, 11:35:59 am
We have 500 watts of solar and that is more than enough to run the fridge (Whirlpool 10 cu ft) and the ice maker all day (with sun...) and charge the batteries. We do run the generator when using the microwave, and will often charge up the batteries before bed when we have been using the main inverter (internet, etc.) at night. We have 2 8D AGMs, for about 450 amp-hours, and they seem totally adequate for our load. We run the fridge on its own inverter, which may be slightly more efficient, but mainly allows us to do easy power management (turn off the main inverter before bed.) With fully charged batteries, they will be down to about an indicated 90% by morning from running the fridge. Our Trimetric 2020 battery monitor is calibrated for 100% = 1 battery = 250 amp-hours (half the total capacity), since we never want to run the batteries down below 50% of total.
We will eventually put another solar panel on to increase charging rate, but I'm not sure where we would put two more, without having panels shadowed by other panels or other roof stuff. 1200 W would not be possible on our coach, and even on a 42ft coach, I wonder whether you could still walk between them to tilt the panels.
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Dave Head on November 14, 2012, 11:44:46 am
Remember, your reefer cycle time is most dependent on access, interior air space and insulation quality. If you stay out of the box and have it well stocked, it won't have to run nearly as much!
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: John Haygarth on November 14, 2012, 12:04:58 pm
Quote
Dave's quote"If you stay out of the box and have it well stocked, it won't have to run nearly as much!
is correct but you must leave room around items for air movement.
George, Maybe when the fridge fails you make a trip up here and we can do it together and then you can fix my computer skills (remember our e-mails?) in exchange!
On the solar issue, I have 600 going to 800 next month and have 3-8D agm= 765 amph and with the 800watt pure sine inverter I added under the end of bed to feed the fridge we have absolutely no problem running fridge AND DO NOT have to run gen'. We also power Micro' with main inverter. Of course the sun does have to shine. We have lot's of sun in the summer months here and in winter we go were it shines, so really no problems.
Dave K, the new panels I am picking up from AMSOLAR are 100 watts and they measure 40X21 and with the other 4 bigger ones there is lots of room to put them on and you have the 36 as well. I have made the ssteel arms to tilt . John H
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Don & Tys on November 14, 2012, 01:34:01 pm
Our dometic 3862 was original to the coach (1999 U270), and before I disconnected all the power so I could weld on the coach safely, was still working... However, fears of potential fire danger as well as the necessity of having level-able parking for operation for more than very short periods of time, has us considering upgrade options. The unit we have pretty much settled on, a Nova Kool RFU9000, which at 9.1 Cubic Foot, represents an upgrade in space. It is AC/DC and uses a Danfoss compressor. It consumes 5.5 amps when running-based on 50% run time, that works out to be 2.8 amps/hour @ 12vdc. The solar upgrade will come later, but I think, if my math is correct, we wouldn't have a problem with it going overnight with our current two battery set up... And for the most part, we will have park power available. Another plus, in addition to the 1.1 CF upgrade in fridge space, it will leave me room to put in a 6 inch deep drawer underneath the fridge. I will fabricate or modify the old oak panels to fit the new fridge, because we like that look.
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Dick S on November 15, 2012, 01:29:20 pm
Don, that looks pretty darn good. I hope you will post a photo tutorial when you install it. Dick
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Dave M (RIP) on November 15, 2012, 02:53:28 pm
I once had a AC/DC Refrig, think it was from either Dometic or Norcold, I forgot, but it lasted an entire year, nearly, went to Sears and bought a nice Whirlpool with built in ice maker household style, it is still in use after 18 years, working great for the new owner, I say Amen. Dave M
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Don & Tys on November 15, 2012, 02:55:39 pm
Sure thing Dick! I am so looking forward to getting back into the interior remodeling upgrade project list... Rolling around under the coach and inside utility compartment is getting old! Starting to apply the Por-15 rustproofing/coating process today... Finally! Don
Don, that looks pretty darn good. I hope you will post a photo tutorial when you install it. Dick
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Don & Tys on November 15, 2012, 04:41:52 pm
Here's another possible alternative to the Norcold/Dometic options... pricy but attractive. The bottom freezer is a drawer. There is another unit that has two of the drawers. The unit pictured here is only 8.1CF (5.5 refer, 2.6 Drawer Freezer). It uses two of the Danfoss compressors, and therefore uses more power but perhaps not twice as much since I would expect the run times to be shorter. Here is a link to some info on the Vitrifrigo DW250BTXAC 8.1 CU FT AC/DC S/S Refrigerator; http://www.suremarineservice.com/DW210-3-1-1-1-1.aspx (http://www.suremarineservice.com/DW210-3-1-1-1-1.aspx) One downside of this unit for us may well be an upside for others... And that is that the front has stainless steel panels. The Novakool RFU9000 that I referenced in an above post, as the ability to add panels of your choosing. Our coach decoration committee likes the wood panels on the current refrigerator. As it happens, so do I, but I don't mind the stainless steel either. But then again, I've often been accused of not being color coordinated even in the way that I dress. Now, I figure that I can find a way to add some nice oak panels and trim to anything that we put in the coach, as long as it has a flat front. The radiused front of many residential refrigerators would be a bit more of a challenge... Don
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Chuck Pearson on November 15, 2012, 08:43:34 pm
Don, the answer to the refrigerator door question is clear. You need to build tambour doors for it! Talk about a match...
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Michelle on November 16, 2012, 04:56:42 pm
our waffling and pondering the pros and cons continue - as in:
- the NDR1492 is working well with no problems... BUT, it is 9.5 years old - IF it fails or starts having problems... in order to continue using the existing NDR1492, the cooling unit could be replaced (and a fire suppression unit could be installed to assure peace of mind) - the NDR1492 has 14 cu ft of capacity
- the loss of the two cabinets below the refrigerator would be a deal-breaker; one cabinet holds our laser printer (which we use without having to lift it), and the other holds the central vac hose and accessories - George is quite handy, and could certainly follow your lead, John, with this modification... however, he currently doesn't have the woodworking tools (saw, etc) that such a project necessitates (while Dave Flanagan's crew is certainly capable of replicating the "Haygarth modification," that would be a significant expense at FOT!)
So, there you have it... what to do... what to do... the waffling and pondering continue... :))
Pat,
Have to looked at all at the RM1350/RME1350 4-door fridge from Dometic? It's about 4 inches taller (so maybe only some of the lower storage would be lost), 3+ inches narrower (cookie sheet storage racks?), and the RME version appears to be all-electric. I wonder how painful the mod would be to put that one in where the NDR1292/1492 models fit?
And from the brochure - you can apparently store an entire salmon in the freezer and a Superbowl-sized sub in the fridge :)
Michelle
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Dave Head on November 16, 2012, 05:38:49 pm
But its still a natural convection and not a compressor style refrigeration design. Even though electric only it still suffers from the same corrosion/off level issues. Plus its a Dometic.
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Patricia on November 16, 2012, 06:18:02 pm
Dave is correct - even though all-electric, it's still an absorption (ammonia/hydrogen) refrigerator - not compressor style. Here's the owners manual (both LP/AC and all-electric models): http://www.electrolux-ui.com:8080/2006%5C825%5C127000EN.pdf (http://www.electrolux-ui.com:8080/2006%5C825%5C127000EN.pdf)
According to the Dometic product catalogue, the NDR1492 specs are 59 1/16 H x 36 1/2 W x 24 D; and the RM(E)1350 is 63 11/64 H x 32 W x 26 1/16 D. While the ice and/or water dispenser is optional in the 2-way (LP/AC) model, it is standard in the all-electric (RME1350). Pricing online was only available for the 3 different 2-way power models (varied on whether there was no ice/water, ice only, or ice and water) - from $2950 to $3300 (don't know about shipping). However, I could not find pricing for the all-electric model.
I really think our waffling/pondering is now between either (a) finding a reasonably priced, quality residential style that's no more than 60" high and 24-26" deep; OR (b) having the Amish-built cooling unit installed by the factory in Shipshewana, IN: http://rvcoolingunit.com/Factory-Installed-NDR1492-Dometic-Brand-New-Cooling-Unit-PKG-P2210451.aspx (http://rvcoolingunit.com/Factory-Installed-NDR1492-Dometic-Brand-New-Cooling-Unit-PKG-P2210451.aspx)
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Chuck Pearson on November 16, 2012, 06:19:45 pm
One of the biggest downsides for me is the fact that the Dometic has the true built in look and the residential reefers look....residential. I've wondered if there might not be a compromise, pull out the absorption refrigeration, add cold plates and compressors. These could be Danfoss or they could be standard refrigerator compressors. The thickness and insulation of the retained Dometic box would guaranteee a pretty high efficiency unit along with oem looks.
Chuck
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Patricia on November 16, 2012, 06:56:52 pm
I like your thinking, Chuck.... when you will you be ready to take orders? :P
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Chuck Pearson on November 17, 2012, 08:48:28 am
By coincidence a friend who's a refrigeration contractor is stopping by tomorrow, I'm going to see what he thinks would be involved. I know you can buy the Danfoss parts to do it for around $1000, I'd like to see if you can just yank the guts out of a standard refrigerator and do it. Particularly appealing would be the use of a variable speed inverter style compressor, ultra efficient.
Chuck
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: gam on November 17, 2012, 09:42:57 am
Check with Sea Freeze of America. They have conversion kits that may be just what you need. On my boat I had one installed to make my fish box into a frig. Gam
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Chuck Pearson on November 17, 2012, 10:38:32 am
For those interested, these guys seem to have good deals on Danfoss 12/120 volt cooling units and plate evaporators of various sizes.
This would be a pretty straightforward way of converting your existing Dometic box to DC / AC only operation with new components.
Chuck
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Dave Head on November 18, 2012, 08:30:50 am
I was trying to talk the factory into building a custom reefer using a Danfoss kit. Got no traction there!
Title: Re: dometic rant
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on November 18, 2012, 11:40:24 am
Dave, Tried Googling DANFOSS to see what I could learn about their compressors. I did not learn much. What makes DANFOSS any different from any other Compressor ( other than magnetic bearing thing ? Looks like if you wanted to build your own reefer you could use any compressor. Gary B