Foretravel Motorhome Forums => Foretravel Tech Talk => Topic started by: Don & Tys on November 17, 2012, 03:56:09 pm
Title: Before, During, After
Post by: Don & Tys on November 17, 2012, 03:56:09 pm
I'm sure many ForeForum members think I'm crazy considering the scope of the repairs that I have undertaken with the bulkhead separation issue on our coach. Looking back at some of the pictures of the work I have done so far, I'm thinking maybe you're right :headwall:
That said however, I passed the point of no return a long time ago... sometimes when I reach a milestone in the project, I rest assured that it will have been worth it in the end! This is one of those times... Though I have a lot of work ahead of me on this project, I can't help but feeling that having the utility compartment coating with the Por-15 basically done, qualifies as one of the major milestones in this project. Here are a couple of pictures for quick comparison... The first picture is after the fiberglass skin has been removed. The second picture is after the framing has been done and after having applied the Por-15 Metal Ready (part of the exacting Por-15 coating process which etches the metal so the the coating will have a good grip on it. It is an acid/zinc mixture of some kind that gives it an almost galvanized appearance). In the second two pictures, you can see that I have opened up the bulkhead joint in order to have access to the back of the 1/8"X1.5"X1.5" square tubing and to the bulkhead itself. This also gives me enough clearance to slide the fiberglass skin over the framework for gluing with epoxy when I get to that point. In the meantime I will close the gap until I am ready to do that once the Por 15 has set up completely. Don
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: wolfe10 on November 17, 2012, 04:00:29 pm
Beautiful work, Don.
When do you open your shop?
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: MemoryRoads on November 17, 2012, 04:24:38 pm
Don, Have been watching your ambitious efforts. I applaud you. When younger, I might have taken on such a task, but after re-engineering and rebuilding my dream boat to last what now seems like another 100 years, I realize, I probably went too far, at least for my benefit.
Today, I tried to start one of my 2 stroke outboards...a little 3.5 hp unit i had stored in my garage....and found it locked up tight, rusty spark plug etc. so the cylinder walls/rings are probably rusted up JUST from sitting this year. Now, I know why 'fogging' oils are on the market now and not in my youth! 2 cycle engines run at 50:1 ratios of gas to oil, leave no oil residue on internals that in days gone past, would have been covered by thehgher concentrations of oil in our mixed fuel/oil residue within our 'smoking' outboards. Ok, I've learned now from my negative experience today. However, looking at your project and not needing my coach to last another 100 years, wonder, just how long we should expect these underbody frames to last? 1/8" of steel can have a long way to go... Have you noticed ONLY surface rust? or deeper?
Like my outboard..."Do you or others feel it could it be possible to inject a fogging petroleum product or ?? to coat the metals in these spaces, or even flood them with a protectant/pressure system /vacuum system? to coat the meteal surfaces for protection from the environmental degradation seen in your photos, without the needed efforts of your surgical endeavors? Is it even necessary if we only intend our coaches to last another 10/20 or realistically longer..? How do you now look at the trade-offs you have seen and experienced? Thanks, ron
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Don & Tys on November 17, 2012, 04:42:27 pm
Ron, I believe that if the bulkhead joint is sound now and protected from water incursion, then it will last indefinitely. In the case of our coach, long-term water leakage from the freshwater system kept some of the framing wet for a long time. It literally could have been as simple as a $.15 hose washer that was leaking... Don't overlook the simple things. Pierce will have a lot to say on the topic of using boiled linseed oil to protect tubing from the inside out. When it's all said and done, I may drill access holes in strategic parts of the tubing to administer boiled linseed oil which I will leave capped. Don
Don, Have been watching your ambitious efforts. I applaud you. When younger, I might have taken on such a task, but after re-engineering and rebuilding my dream boat to last what now seems like another 100 years, I realize, I probably went too far, at least for my benefit.
Today, I tried to start one of my 2 stroke outboards...a little 3.5 hp unit i had stored in my garage....and found it locked up tight, rusty spark plug etc. so the cylinder walls/rings are probably rusted up JUST from sitting this year. Now, I know why 'fogging' oils are on the market now and not in my youth! 2 cycle engines run at 50:1 ratios of gas to oil, leave no oil residue on internals that in days gone past, would have been covered by thehgher concentrations of oil in our mixed fuel/oil residue within our 'smoking' outboards. Ok, I've learned now from my negative experience today. However, looking at your project and not needing my coach to last another 100 years, wonder, just how long we should expect these underbody frames to last? 1/8" of steel can have a long way to go... Have you noticed ONLY surface rust? or deeper?
Like my outboard..."Do you or others feel it could it be possible to inject a fogging petroleum product or ?? to coat the metals in these spaces, or even flood them with a protectant/pressure system /vacuum system? to coat the meteal surfaces for protection from the environmental degradation seen in your photos, without the needed efforts of your surgical endeavors? Is it even necessary if we only intend our coaches to last another 10/20 or realistically longer..? How do you now look at the trade-offs you have seen and experienced? Thanks, ron
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Don & Tys on November 17, 2012, 05:19:00 pm
Thanks Brett, My shop will be opening on the 12th of never! ;D My sincere hope is that this is a once-in-a-lifetime deal. Although if I had pit dug to work under the coach like Pierce, well... Don
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on November 17, 2012, 06:21:37 pm
Don,
If we can work out a deal on a percentage basis...
Pierce
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Jon Twork on November 17, 2012, 08:41:21 pm
Regarding the "Although if I had pit dug to work under the coach like Pierce, well..." comment, I recently had some work done in Grand Rapids, MI and the shop there used a method that I had not seen before to raise my coach up about 6' high so the mechanic could work on it. There were four (4) mobile jack stands that were moved to each of the wheel positions and lift bars were extended under the tires on all the wheels close in and then the jacks were all raised at the same time and up in the air it went and was very stable. I believe the stands stored in a space 6x6 and were electrically or air powered to move. Pretty trick. For someone planning on doing a lot of work on a coach, it would seem to be a good investment. Pretty slick.
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: John Haygarth on November 17, 2012, 11:52:43 pm
Don, the low pressure system I have been using for 20 yrs is about as easy as it goes and does a fabulous job of protecting inside tubes or contained spaces as I mentioned in another post. If I knew exactly were I could drill into the box frame the bolts go thru I would do it in a minute and then thread one of my 1/4" tubes into it and spray away. I would first take off the side panel to get to it better. If you can tell me exactly how far back from the outside face of the angle the centre of this box (tubing) is I will drill a hole up thru the fibreglass sheet into sq tube and feed a tube right across the frame and spray while pulling it slowly out. The wax/oil system I use sticks to everything like ---t and stays put for years while at the same time migrating into every nook and cranny. The spray tank system I use works at around 10psi and makes a real heavy fog. John H
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: wolfe10 on November 18, 2012, 08:34:25 am
John,
To access the center of the box beam, you could remove one of the Rolocks and just insert the tube in 3/4" of an inch or so.
You can also use a magnet under the coach on the fiberglass to "define" exactly where the box beams are throughout the center section of the coach (again covered with white fiberglass).
Brett
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Kent Speers on November 18, 2012, 09:28:11 am
Don, as I have expressed I wouldn't have felt the need to do all that you have done to your coach but you certainly have my respect for the quality of work and your desire for perfection. I'm sure many of us learned a lot about the structure of our coaches.
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Modern Day Jipzee on November 18, 2012, 09:35:06 am
Don I'm not sure if this will help but what the heck see the attachment, Good Luck.
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on November 18, 2012, 11:25:47 am
Andrew,
Looks good and really handy to have in front of you for planning. How about a like drawing for your/our U300? We have the 36 footer. Wonder where the 4 feet are in the drawing?
Pierce
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Don & Tys on November 18, 2012, 12:53:25 pm
Thanks Andrew, Having the equivalent of this plan for our coach would've been awesome at the beginning of this process! In fact, I would still like to get a hold of the frame plans for our coach so that I can note the changes and include them in the documentation. By any chance, do you know who at the mothership I should ask to try and get a hold of a copy of the plans relevant to our coach? Don
Don I'm not sure if this will help but what the heck see the attachment, Good Luck.
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Don & Tys on November 18, 2012, 01:01:38 pm
John, If you measure from the outer face of the quarter inch angle iron, and go towards the front of the coach, there is only the addition of about a 16th inch of sheet metal that is the actual bulkhead wall and the aluminum trim, which I believe is very thin but on our coach was so far gone I couldn't tell you for sure... So if you measure about one and a 16th inches from the outside face of the angle iron towards the front of the coach you would be awfully close to dead center. I think Brett's approach would be by far the easiest to accomplish, especially since either one of the outer bolts would be accessible without even getting under the coach. Don
Don, the low pressure system I have been using for 20 yrs is about as easy as it goes and does a fabulous job of protecting inside tubes or contained spaces as I mentioned in another post. If I knew exactly were I could drill into the box frame the bolts go thru I would do it in a minute and then thread one of my 1/4" tubes into it and spray away. I would first take off the side panel to get to it better. If you can tell me exactly how far back from the outside face of the angle the centre of this box (tubing) is I will drill a hole up thru the fibreglass sheet into sq tube and feed a tube right across the frame and spray while pulling it slowly out. The wax/oil system I use sticks to everything like ---t and stays put for years while at the same time migrating into every nook and cranny. The spray tank system I use works at around 10psi and makes a real heavy fog. John H
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: John Haygarth on November 18, 2012, 05:30:27 pm
although no bolts missing and no rust at all along angle I am a little reluctant to take the outer Rolock bolt off, so will "think" about it for a few days. I just do not want it to break "if" it happens to be rusty inside. I may just try too remove and go whichever way I feel is safe at that moment. John H (chicken me)
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: MemoryRoads on November 18, 2012, 08:41:34 pm
John, I think you are on the right track...can One bolt be removed on One end and maybe another on the other end...if this is only a potential problem withing One forward and One aft box tube, at fore and aft bulkheads, and some sealant protectant can be sprayed/intoduced into this area via a small tube/hose.
Any thoughts that this could be done or suggested to be done, as Part Of the Proceedure at FOT for checking Bulk Heads? at a slight increase in price but done as a preventative measure?
Title: Re: Before, During, After- A few more pics
Post by: Don & Tys on November 21, 2012, 01:34:51 am
Worked more on the bulkhead project today... no pictures yet of the new work, but I thought I would add some information on the work that was done up to this point. The Por-15 application procedure is fairly involved and painstaking. I have to say, that the worst part for me was rinsing the degreaser and metal prep off... It went so against my grain and instincts to flood the area with water that I have been grinding rust off and welding new metal into for what seems like forever. After each rinse, I ran large fans for hours and then left about 800 Watts of lighting and heating blankets on top of the bulkhead frame member inside the compartment overnight to help dry it out. Fortunately afterwords, I had a few days of very low humidity around 27%. I even went so far as to heat up the horizontal 1/8"X1.5"X1.5" square tubing frame member with a MAPP gas torch to make sure that the inside of it was completely dried out. Perhaps it would've been adequate to wipe everything down with a wet rag between applications of the degreaser and the metal prep, but there're so many nooks and crannies that I wanted to be sure the metal was properly prepared to be sure that the Por-15 coating sticks to it.
I have to say that crawling around under the coach applying the Por-15 to the framing about 4 inches above my body was one of the most physically arduous tasks that I've ever taken on. What I wouldn't give for Pierce's Pit! In one of the pictures, you can see most of the aluminum shelves in place. Four of those shelves were two layers of 1.5" plywood as it came from the factory. In three of those four, the wood was so wet that it was spongy and moldy which rotted the square tubing it was in contact with.
Whatever you do folks, keep water off the floor of the utility compartment, or any of the basement compartments for that matter. Also it is a good idea to make sure the caulking around any penetration into the basement insulation is intact. I may add a couple of small drains on each side of the compartment in the floor in order to drain the water that may accumulate inadvertently. Paranoid? Maybe so, but that doesn't mean that rust isn't laying in wait for me. As Neil Young said, Rust never sleeps! Don
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Don & Tys on November 21, 2012, 10:06:17 pm
Andrew, I was just looking at the drawing a little closer... I noticed that the bulk of the tubing in the materials list calls for 18 gauge square tube. Only the two bulkhead square tubes are 1/8 inch thick. I was under the impression that the thinner gauge tubing that I cut out of our basement framing is 16 gauge. I can't really be sure, because of all the rust, but I am just wondering if they increased the thickness of the non bulkhead framing sometime in the 90s, or if the tubing on our coach was just so rust jacked that it appears to be thicker even after taking a wire wheel to the rust.
Of course it doesn't really matter, just that inquiring minds want to know! I am sure that whatever gauge tubing the engineers at Foretravel called for, it was adequately strong for the purpose in the absence of rust. I used mostly eighth inch thick walled tubing for my repairs, along with some 13 gage (about 3/32") as well as some extra 1/8" inch thick angle iron as well as 3/16" angle iron and 3/16" flat stock where the bulkhead bolts come through to spread the clamping force. I calculated one time that I've added about 135 pounds of steel to the utility compartment framing. Hopefully the removal of two CRT televisions and the icemaker will make up for it! It will be interesting to get the unladen weight when I'm all done and compare it to the weight placard in the coach. In any case, I feel like it is weight that was well spent. Of course I can't forget about the hundred and 50 pound washer dryer combo that I added to the coach. hmm...
Edit: I've added an attachment that shows the different gauges of tubing. Top picture is some of the original framing that I removed and cleaned, the second picture down is 13 gauge, and the last one on the bottom is 11 gauge or 8th inch. Unfortunately there's no scale present, but at least you can see by way of comparison. Don
By any chance, do you know who at the mothership I should ask to try and get a hold of a copy of the plans relevant to our coach?
Don, I would certainly start with James Triana. Send him your coach number and what you want and I'll bet you will get all you ever wanted. He has a book on each and ever coach build setting in his office.
John Christman
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Don & Tys on November 22, 2012, 11:30:48 am
Thanks John. What I would really like would be the as-built drawings for the entire coach! LOL... But perhaps James would be willing to send me the plans for the subfloor. I will try contacting him after the holidays. Don
Don, I would certainly start with James Triana. Send him your coach number and what you want and I'll bet you will get all you ever wanted. He has a book on each and ever coach build setting in his office.
John Christman
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: John Haygarth on November 24, 2012, 06:48:09 pm
Well finally today I got the tools out and decided to take a Rolock off. I picked the 2nd from end and was going to do as Brett said and feed my oil line in that hole. Surprise, surprise it came out just perfect and threaded nicely all the way. I took a pic of it to show it is like new condition pic 1. I tried to get the line in but it would not turn to travel down the box tube--pic 2, so I drilled a 3/8" hole thru the side box section that is inline with the one that crosses behind the angle iron--pic 3. Thru this I threaded the plastic line all the way across and sure enough it stopped at 8'--pic 4, so I hooked it up to my Low pressure sray gun--pic 5, and started to blow the wax/oil mixture into the box tube. I slowly pulled it out as I kept spraying so a good amount is thru the complete tube. I then pushed it to go down the side tube as far as possible and sprayed again so oil mix is in the tubes that are below the compartment doors. Once finished I pressed sealing caps into holes to stop water etc entering--pic 6. I did this in both front and back sections so coach is completey done. Then I put on a fine mist spray tube to coat right across the angle and Rolock bolts and up into the joint of angle iron etc--pic 7. I am really confident that I do not have any problem at all with rust or Rolocks after seeing what the ones in the worst position are like (in line of tires) Now that is out of my mind
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: John Haygarth on November 25, 2012, 01:07:38 pm
should have said once the mixture I sprayed underneath is somewhat drier I will again be spraying more undercoating (rubberized) along angle and rolocks as more protection John H
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Don & Tys on November 25, 2012, 02:15:53 pm
John, There appears to be some significant differences in the way the bottom sill is handled between your coach and ours. You did not have to remove some extruded aluminum trim from the bottom sill in order to drill that access hole? Our coach has extruded aluminum trim all the way along the bottom edges on both sides which gives the compartment door gasket a flange and adds a radius at the bottom. Also, the bulkhead angle iron on our coach has 45° cuts on each end where it meets up with the trim. It is difficult to tell from your picture, but it appears that your bulkhead angle iron is square on the ends. If I drilled a hole in the same place you did along longitudinal axis, it would not meet up with the horizontal square tubing of the bulkhead frame member. I will attach a couple of pictures in an attempt to try and clarify what I am talking about. As you can see, I did drill a hole to access the horizontal frame member in order to heat the tube from the inside out with a mapp gas torch to ensure there was no moisture left inside after rinsing the metal prep prior to coating with Por-15. If I wanted to access this hole in the future, I will have to take this piece of trim off which involves removing all the caulking etc.
Well finally today I got the tools out and decided to take a Rolock off. I picked the 2nd from end and was going to do as Brett said and feed my oil line in that hole. Surprise, surprise it came out just perfect and threaded nicely all the way. I took a pic of it to show it is like new condition pic 1. I tried to get the line in but it would not turn to travel down the box tube--pic 2, so I drilled a 3/8" hole thru the side box section that is inline with the one that crosses behind the angle iron--pic 3. Thru this I threaded the plastic line all the way across and sure enough it stopped at 8'--pic 4, so I hooked it up to my Low pressure sray gun--pic 5, and started to blow the wax/oil mixture into the box tube. I slowly pulled it out as I kept spraying so a good amount is thru the complete tube. I then pushed it to go down the side tube as far as possible and sprayed again so oil mix is in the tubes that are below the compartment doors. Once finished I pressed sealing caps into holes to stop water etc entering--pic 6. I did this in both front and back sections so coach is completey done. Then I put on a fine mist spray tube to coat right across the angle and Rolock bolts and up into the joint of angle iron etc--pic 7. I am really confident that I do not have any problem at all with rust or Rolocks after seeing what the ones in the worst position are like (in line of tires) Now that is out of my mind
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: John Haygarth on November 25, 2012, 04:51:29 pm
correct I do not have the trim piece-strange!! My angle is sq at the end and abutts to the side tube that goes the length of bays. I wonder why they did this as your coach is only a year older and no doubt the same grid section of tubing. I have to say I was delighted to find the Rolock in such good condition, and it is in one of the worst places for crap and water to be thrown up off tyres. I seem to remember in your pics that these wheel end sections have a bouble tube assy ( and the length of bolt would say that, so I fed my oil tube in the bolt hole and into second section of tube and blasted the mixture in there too, so hope to have covered all possible places. I did all 4 corners in that position. You know it really surprises me how good and solid it all is after the roads we have driven on the last 3 yrs in this coach in Mexico and some of the really bad holes in roads we have come across. John H
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: John Christman on November 25, 2012, 05:34:20 pm
You know it really surprises me how good and solid it all is after the roads we have driven on the last 3 yrs in this coach in Mexico and some of the really bad holes in roads we have come across. John H
You know John, it really should be no "surprise" to you. :-\ Your last two words are what makes Foretravel shine as they are certainly the operative words, of your entire statement! CASE IN POINT: Had you "fallen" into those holes, >:( then you might find yourself saying something other than "surprise" .
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: John Haygarth on November 25, 2012, 06:46:35 pm
John C, the reason I used "surprise" was because of the many FT owners who have had "rust jacking" and some say that the torque and towing effect these Bulkheads too. So, due to this coach living in the "Great white north" as some southeners like to call it for at least 3 yrs plus that "shock" issue of bad roads in some Mexico states, I was pleasently surprised (and happy) with my situation. John H
Title: Re: Before, During, After & then some...
Post by: Don & Tys on November 27, 2012, 12:50:18 pm
Well folks, The work continues and each new step brings the endgame more into focus. I am getting excited! I have cut the fiberglass skins to fit the utilities compartment framing and for the first time, I can see the bulkhead joint as it will be when I'm all done with the project. I also cleaned up and painted the bulkhead angle iron with Por15. I am convinced that finishing the painting of the framework was a major milestone. It signified that I wouldn't be doing any more additions, welding, or grinding on the structure. Now I am starting to feel the single-minded focus that tells me the end is in sight. I just wish some other aspects of life would leave me alone for a while so I could give it my full attention! Ha ha, well such is life... Naturally I took a few pictures and attach them here for your entertainment. I still have it in my plans to do a more extensive step-by-step type write up on the overall project, along with organized pictures depicting each step of the way. Once I do that, it will printed up and put it along with all the other stuff in the owners manuals. we have no plans to sell this coach, but we do have plans to use it extensively! It may well be that somewhere down the road, I will be the one to benefit from my own documentation LOL! ;D
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Dean & Dee on November 27, 2012, 01:27:54 pm
Don, wow, very impressive. I don't believe you will have any further bulkhead concerns. Bet you will be happy to finally be able to spend some of your time on the upper side of the coach. :))
Looks great and appears bulletproof....or should I say rustproof!
Dean
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Don & Tys on November 27, 2012, 01:36:59 pm
Thanks Dean, bullet proof is what I was going for, but I will certainly settle for rustproof. I hadn't really thought of it until your post, but I am quite certain that I have spent orders of magnitude more hours under the coach or literally in the belly of the beast then I have spent in the living quarters topside. I can't wait for that equation to flip-flop! Don
Don, wow, very impressive. I don't believe you will have any further bulkhead concerns. Bet you will be happy to finally be able to spend some of your time on the upper side of the coach. :))
Looks great and appears bulletproof....or should I say rustproof!
Dean
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Tom Endres on November 27, 2012, 02:10:16 pm
Don, I have been following the work on your coach, and I must say. It is simply OUTSTANDING!! You are by far a master craftsman.
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: John Haygarth on November 27, 2012, 05:33:49 pm
Don, nice job, by the way how is the other end??? Just before you get off your knees!! John H
Title: Re: Before, During, After
Post by: Don & Tys on November 27, 2012, 06:10:31 pm
Thanks Tom! I appreciate the kind words... my goal is to always try to improve on the status quo if possible (the status quo being before I realized there was a bulkhead issue). Since Tys and I have in mind to explore wild areas for boondocking possibilities, I want to be sure that there won't be a re-occurrence...
John H... Thanks, but the front is fine! I know that for a fact because I peeled off the entire underside skin. And because I removed all of the front bulkhead bolts one by one. The only issue was that the outermost curbside bolt in the front was broken where it went into the backside of the tubing, leaving a nub inside. I could actually have drilled a hole in from the side of the longitudinal tube and remove the stub and welded a nut. But since there was enough room, I merely drilled another hole (the specified size for installing Roloks) alongside of it about 3/8" inboard and installed a new Rolok. The original broken one was about at the extreme outside edge of the angle, so all I did was move the hole inboard a little and it still terminates inside the outtermost longitudinal square tube. I also replaced all of the old front bulkhead bolts with new ones and since the originals are still usable (just a bit of surface rust here and there), I will use them to replace some of the underside Roloks that aren't as pristine. I can tell you, I was very relieved to have all but one of the front bulkhead bolts doing their job. Keep in mind, there is no suspension members up there tugging on the joint like there is in the back... Don