I was driving back to Austin last weekend from Denton on I35W. As I jumped on the freeway, I seemed to lose power. I was doing about 60 as I was accelerating to merge but then the coach started to lose power and I dropped all the way down to 4th at about 40 - 45 mph (floored). It held there for maybe a minute and then power kicked back in and all was fine the rest of the trip. I immediately started scanning all the gauges and could find nothing wrong. No high temps, oil pressure fine, etc. My first thought was maybe my fuel filter was clogged, but then it wouldn't probably make sense that it performed flawlessly the rest of the 4 hour trip. I'm hoping this was a one time occurrence, but problems don't tend to rear their ugly head only once. :-(
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Benjie
when that happened to me, it was clogged filters (algae). started first as hesitation, then power loss. when I got to Cummins Indianapolis and shut it off, we couldn't get it to re-fire to move inside, so they had to do all the work in the parking lot. Fixed, and no problems since. Put in algacide now when it sits. only took a month for the gunk to grow, think I got some diesel with water this summer that made for the algae bllom.
Probably a bit of air in the injection system or a partial blockage at one of the filters. How much fuel in the tank? Anything unusual other than the momentary loss of power? Would start looking a fuel lines for leaking or seeping. Any visible deterioration on the hoses? Only takes a little air for the engine to drop a cylinder or two. Other possibilities for air would be the fuel pump or even a check valve that momentarily stuck allowing the low pressure fuel supply to the injection pump to drop for a few seconds.
Partial clog of the filter usually shows up first with a loss of power under max acceleration like up a freeway on ramp or up a grade. Not many hills in Texas though. ;D Once the engine load is reduced, the filter passes enough fuel for the engine to be happy again. Partial blockage is usually worse when the fuel is cooler and the viscosity is higher. On the other hand, I have seen algae settle on the filter bottom after sitting overnight and block the element after running for a while. Could replace the filter if it's been a while. Flashlight and mirror in the tank can check for algae in the bottom.
Like you said, will probably be back again.
Pierce
We had that problem off and on for about a year. Found that by turning off the cruise and then back on it would quit doing that. Had the transmission checked, the cruise, changed the fuel filter, kicked the tires, It doesn't do it any more. Somebody said that with the change to low-sulfur fuel the gunk would break loose and go into suspension and clog the filter up. Probably did too many things to really trouble-shoot the problem but the problem was getting down the road so we've just accepted as another RV mystery.
How would you propose using a flashlight and mirror to check the bottom of the tank? Purchase a small mirror to stick inside tank to reflect the light down?
Best Regards,
Benjie
Benjie Zeller
(512) 587-4628
Benjie,
Depending on where your fuel filler is and if you have a direct view of the bottom of the tank. I use a bright flashlight and a small mechanic's mirror to view the inside/bottom of the tank. The mirror is round and about an inch or so in diameter, mounted on an eight inch rod with an adjustable head. Good for a lot of other hidden items on the coach.
If you don't mind a mess, a hacksaw is a good way of inspecting the inside of the old filter. Algae appears black. Using a diesel additive keeps algae away as well as the injectors clean. Some useless stuff on the market so do some research before buying. As I remember, someone posted a review on the different brand names sold.
Short story: Years ago, I got a load of diesel in the desert for our MBZ 220D that made the engine knock so loud I though it was going to blow up. Drove to a truck stop in Barstow, put a few ounces of additive in the tank and within a minute, the knock was back to the normal diesel clatter. The stuff does work.
For flashlights, I love the CREE T6 available on ebay. They are inexpensive, superbright and fit in your pocket. Perfect for the inside of tanks or general purpose. See varieties at: cree flashlight 1600 in Flashlights | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=cree+flashlight+1600&_sacat=0&_from=R40)
Variety of mechanic's mirrors at: mechanics mirror | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=mechanics+mirror&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313&_nkw=mechanics+mirror&_sacat=0)
Pierce
Our Cummins C8.3 engine uses a solenoid fuel shut off valve located on curb side of engine. We had similar symptoms when the solenoid opened enough to run engine but not enough to flow enough fuel to drive over 10 MPH or so. Cummins now has a much improves fuel shut off solenoid. We found that we could manually push up solenoid and hold in open position with cable tie to drive and removed cable tie to stop engine. We thought our problem was fuel filter clog, bad fuel, air filter clog, etc.
To check for fuel problems, we use a drill pump to pump out bottom of tank fuel into a glass gallon jar. Let jar sit for a couple of days and if all clear no fuel problems. Water will show on bottom of jar. Algae will show as a layer between water and fuel. We used a copper pipe to reach bottom of fuel tank.
Benji,
If the previous responses regarding fuel filters and auto stop solenoids don't solve your problem, the 8.3's with King Control/Cruise Controls also have an idiosyncrasy in this regard.
Like Larry, I have had this happen multiple times and if
stepping on the brakes or turning the cruise control off and then back on again happened to coincide with the problem clearing, I can almost guarantee that the problem is traceable to your King Control unit not seeing ground through your brake bulb filaments. When the KC Unit loses that ground, the fuel rack opening will be limited to roughly a fuel delivery opening equal to 1500 RPM. See the following post for more details:
Cruise Control (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=13256.msg72510#msg72510)
It may have some applicability to your occurrence.
Best wishes and Happy Hunting,
Neal
All,
Thanks for the info and suggestions. I took a pump and siphon some fuel out of the bottom of the tank. Everything there looked good to me.
As for the filter, when draining, it filled with fuel and the particles in the bottom of the cup. This normal?
I think my first action will be to change the filters and see if that helps. I don't remember if the cruise control was on, but will be sure to pay attention next time.
Regards,
Benjie
Benji,
Neal's King Control comment is right on topic and refers to throttle limitations, not cruise control being on.
On most coaches, the throttle pedal is electrically connected to King Control, located in forward curb side of engine, which pulls the throttle cable on the side of the engine. If brake light bulb conditions are not met, King Control will limit RPM. King Control has an electronic board that can be stressed over time.
We stopped at King Control in Minnesota for a checkup and had our board replaced due to an overheated solder joint even though we had no problems.
You should not be seeing particles in the fuel you drained from the filter, would appear like you have some algae in the tank. Use an algicide and new fuel filters and also carry 2 extra of each fuel filter so when one clogs up you will have a spare.
I had the same problem, seems like it happened more when at full throttle. My culprit was the King Control. I held the bed up while having DW take off at full power and you could see King Control just let go of the tension holding throttle open. Let off fuel petal all the way and then give fuel again and King Control would work.
King Control rebuilt it and all is well now.
Good Luck
Larry Bradley
1998 U270
I was really hoping this isn't the case. I wonder why my pump didn't pull anything nasty out of the tank? Maybe the plastic tubing somehow curled back up and was pulling from the good fuel layer. I ordered some of this...
Power Service 09016-09 Bio Kleen Diesel Fuel Biocide - 16 oz. : Amazon.com : (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005IUP9LC/ref=pe_175190_21431760_M3T1_ST1_dp_1)
Hope it works!
I think I found my issue...
By the way, I looked and my control is Bendix, not King. :-(
Benjie,
Go to a marine store such as West Marine and get some BIOCIDE.
Use a KILL dose.
Brett
Benjie,
What filter is it, that you cut open and where was it located? Did it get that dirty from bad fuel or from never being changed?
Does Bendix indicate coach has an air-throttle? I heard that some air-throttle coaches still use King for cruise control.
Barry,
Correct. A coach can be Air Throttle and King Control cruise.
Actually, that is probably the best combination.
My 95 U280 has a Williams air throttle and King Control Cruise. At least if King poops out I still have throttle.
Gary B
Our '97 U275 has an air throttle. I think it has the King cruise control. Both work well. The air throttle is a replacement for the original control.
The in house mechanic for previous owner told the story of driving from California to Texas using a broomstick to prop the bed, and a rope tied to the engine control and stretching to the driver position. King Control Throttle and Cruise Control Issues (http://www.beamalarm.com/Documents/king_control_throttle_and_cruise_control_issues.html) He said they replaced the throttle, but said nothing about replacing the cruise control.
OK, now to get rid of the algae. In the old days, we were warned never to dump the fungicide down the drain as one quart would put the town's sewer plant out of business. The later stuff is not as strong but would suggest you contact a boat fueling facility for their recommendation as to the strongest/best brand. I buy a gallon at a time and add the recommended ounces per gallon each time I fuel. You will want to go on the strong side at first. I would have at least one extra set as algae is not the easiest thing to kill. Here is a site with a bit of reading before you start to get rid of the algae: Solving Diesel Fuel Problems (http://www.diesel-fuels.com)
If untreated, it can do damage like the site suggests but you should be able to nip it in the bud. As I said before, I would get that flashlight, mirror and with the coach leaning toward the fuel filler, I would keep checking to make sure there is no water/algae in with the diesel. Looking around on the inside of the tank, it should be spotless aluminum with no visible deposits anywhere. A small hand or electric pump and a length of tubing should be able to suck any water/algae out. Naturally, if the tank is full, it's hard to see the bottom.
Bad engine aside, Olds diesels were delivered with a fuel tank without a drain so every time algae was found, the tank would have to be replaced. I remember watching a Volvo dealership steamcleaning the inside of one of their diesel models fuel tank (VW van diesel engine).
So, call for the latest biocide brand recommendation, use it extra strength at first and then add it EVERY time you fuel. This, along with a visual inspection should keep your engine (and you happy).
Your filters should have protected the injection pump and injectors. There may be a check valve before the filters that could be effected. It is placed around the engine's mechanical fuel pump so a hand or electric pump can prime the system. I has to be there as fuel can't be pushed or pulled through any positive displacement pump. Algae on the check valve seat could cause part of the fuel to try and return and reduce the low pressure fuel supply to the injection pump. The return side of the high pressure injection pump also has a spring loaded check valve to maintain the right amount of pressure in the pump but it should have been protected by your primary and secondary fuel filters.
Good photos. Never hurts to cut your fuel filters apart for a visual when you change filters.
Late engines with common rail injection with very high pressures may use a 2 micron secondary filter instead of a 10 micron so make sure you know the correct filter part number for your engine as the guy behind the parts counter may not be that sharp.
Pierce
Actually, Caterpillar requires a 2 micron final fuel filter for ALL their engines. So, either a 10 or 30 micron primary and 2 secondary.
Barry,
I cut open both filters, but the one pictured is the large one located in starting battery bay. They were each changed almost exactly one year ago and have about 3000 miles on them.
BZ
Has anyone used this stuff? I purchased this a few days ago and it should show up today.
Power Service 09016-09 Bio Kleen Diesel Fuel Biocide - 16 oz. : Amazon.com : (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005IUP9LC/ref=pe_175190_21431760_M3T1_ST1_dp_1?ie=UTF8&tag=foreforums-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957)
If not recommended, I'll run over to West Marine.
BZ
Benjie,
We don't use that brand but some friends that we travel with use it. He has had good results and is pleased with it. As bad as your filter looked you definitely need to have several extra sets of fuel filters handy to change out as you will be needing them. If I remember correctly don't you live close to Canyon Lake? If so swing by the Canyon Lake marina and see how much they will charge to polish your fuel. That may save you some big headaches.
Pamela & Mike
What do folks use for fuel with gel in it?
best, paul
Curious if those of you more experienced than I have a preference for fuel filters with the plastic bowl on the bottom? I'm wondering if that might be a decent investment so I can see any algae/water that be accumulating?
Best Regards,
Benjie
Benjie Zeller
(512) 587-4628
Benjie,
Have always used a Racor starting in 1973 when the service stations had no idea what filters were for diesel fuel. We installed them in all MBZ diesels.
Besides an extra filter, I keep an extra plastic bowl with O rings in the filter box also. Comes in a couple of micron sizes so check before you buy. That also depends if you are going to install it as a primary filter (the first filter the fuel sees after leaving the tank) or as the secondary. Detroits use it as a primary but have seen Cummins use it in in the secondary position. Dave M uses a lot of filters in his generator business. Drop him a note for his model recommendation.
Paul,
A lot of the time, I may have summer diesel on-board when we head up to high elevation and/or cold weather. That is one of the reasons I use an additive that works as a fungicide and an anti-waxing/gelling agent also. Without winter additives, diesel may start to gel at minus 9-12C. You can never be sure if your last tank had it or not. Part of the tax and high cost of fuel in Europe covers inspectors who constantly sample service station tanks for contaminants and proper additives. They can close a station on the spot if the fuel is bad. We don't have them here so there is always a little risk.
If you don't have an additive and the weather turns really cold (like in Yellowstone), you can add gasoline to the diesel. Mercedes recommends no more than 30%. Other manufacturers may recommend a different amount. Check before adding. Here is a quote from Daimler Benz:
"Varying with the temperature, add a certain quantity of kerosene if only summer diesel fuels or less cold resistant winter diesel fuels are available or if temperatures drop below -15 C (+5 F)."
"Should standard gasoline have to be used for blending, never exceed a proportion of 30%. Premium fuels must not be used. The lower flash point of the supplementary fuels increases the danger of explosions."
"Engine power may drop according to the proportion of supplementary fuel. For this reason, keep percentage of fuel added to a minimum necessiated by the ambient temperature..." There is an accompanying temperature / other fuels chart.
Hope this helps.
Pierce
RE: Has anyone used this stuff?
To get around possible fuel problems, we carry several bottles of Power Service 911 and Biocide, but have never had to use them.
DIESEL 9?1?1® For Winter Emergencies: Winter Rescue Formula ? use to reliquefy (http://powerservice.com/d911/)
BIO KLEEN® DIESEL FUEL BIOCIDE: A dual-phase biocide to kill microbes, bacteria (http://powerservice.com/bk/)
For the last 12 years, we have been adding Power Service Diesel Kleen in gray bottle, purchased from Walmart to every fuel fill. We don't usually believe in additives, but decided to use it and have no idea if does any good.
DIESEL KLEEN® +Cetane Boost®: Max HP Formula ? use during non-winter months for (http://powerservice.com/dk/)
We feel that we have been lucky to not have fuel problems and mostly fill at truck stops, usually Flying J / Pilot and try to have an almost full tank when we stop for several weeks or longer to reduce condensation in tank. We will consider it a worthwhile fuel stop if we can take on 35 gallons or more, except when making long runs, where we can wait a day and fill 60 gallons or more. We will pass on any station getting their tanks filled because we think it stirs up junk in the bottom of the underground tanks.
BZ, Why do you think your fuel went bad?
Benjie, I have the RACOR with a plastic bowl on it. In 10 years with this coach only once have I found crap in the bowl. After buying fuel at Eloy, AZ I experienced surging and near shut downs. I found black crap and milky stuff that I think was water in the bowl. After three changes of both filters over about two weeks and additional fuel fills I finally got rid of it and coach ran OK then.
Gary B
As Gary says, sooner or later you will pick up some water/algae. Doubtful that it grew in your tank but much more likely it was picked up when you fueled up. I avoid all stations with above ground tanks as the temperature change from night to day makes them candidates for condensation. As noted, also best to avoid fueling while the tanker is there.
When flying, I have always taken a fuel sample for water in the fuel right after filling the tanks. Very sobering to find some. Even more sobering if you lose power for even a fraction of a second. With a RV, it also pays to establish a routine while on the road. A quick check of the oil, a glance at the hydraulic belt, and a look through the plastic filter bowl can head off potential problems. They are all located close to each other so it's just a matter of a little discipline, not that it is the easiest thing to learn, especially if ADHD. :D
Pierce
Barry I too use a Cetane Boost and every 2nd fill a Diesel Lube but the ones I use are made by AMSOIL. Fuel companies say you do not need the lube but I put it in any way. Not had any gelling but did have a bad fill with water once last year and had to drain tank and throw filter as it had Algea ( but none showed up in fuel after emptying.
I am an AMSOIL person and believe highly in it.
John H