It is great to see so many newbie's and wannabee's on the Forum, discovering and exploring the FT vs. SOB (Some Other Brand) qualities! And their questions help us all in many ways. It really takes me back to our initial (way conservative) decision making before we threw our hard earned cash into the Foretravel pot.
Longer term FT owners passionately understand the positives and benefits associated with Foretravel ownership, but why is it often so difficult to weed out the Foretravel vs. SOB facts from the fiction? "Back in the day" before the internet and long before the Yahoo and Foreforums, we (I?) wanted to follow some sort of a process to make data gathering more efficient. The process would be much easier today, in the "Information Age", but the attached "common sense process" works even better today in sorting out FT advantages over SOB pitfalls. It's still a lot of work and one must be a compulsive cautionary or conservative decision maker to enjoy it. If you make major spending decisions with the emotional side of your brain instead of the logical side, this won't be your "cup of tea".
I tried to put the attached dissertation into the body of this post but it gets "mangled" in the browser to FoFum transition, therefore it is included as an attached *.pdf file.
Anyway. It's my take on how to explore the benefits of FT vs. SOB ownership (as well as how to learn or continuously improve, following any problem, unexpected event or incident that you may experience). I hope that it may be of some use to you and that I don't bore you to tears with my logical side!
Neal
Best translation I can do on short notice. ???
Foretravel vs. SOB Decision AnalysisIt is great to see so many newbie's and wannabee's on the Forum, discovering and exploring the FT vs. SOB qualities! And their questions help us all in many ways. It really takes me back to our initial (way conservative) decision before we threw our hard earned cash into the Foretravel pot.
Longer term FT owners passionately understand the positives and benefits associated with Foretravel ownership, but why is it often so difficult to weed out the Foretravel vs. SOB facts from the fiction? "Back in the day" before the internet and long before the Yahoo and Foreforums, we (I?) wanted to follow some sort of a process to make data gathering more efficient. The process would be much easier today, in the "Information Age", but the following "common sense process" works even better today in sorting out FT advantages over SOB pitfalls. It's still a lot of work and one must be a compulsive cautionary or conservative decision maker to enjoy it. If you make major spending decisions with the emotional side of your brain instead of the logical side, this won't be your "cup of tea".
What follows is a little lengthy, so I apologize in advance and warn off those of you who aren't seriously interested.
Part 1: I had a 37 year career in an industry (Nuclear) where striving for Continuous Improvement and ROOT CAUSE ANALYSIS and Failure Mode Effects Analysis (FMEA) was/is a way of life. As a result, we (DW and I) did extensive analysis of FT's vs. SOB's prior to our "Last and First" motorhome purchase in 1998. That analysis has served us well, we've learned a whole bunch more since then and we're as (or more) pleased today than ever.
Part 2: Beyond our own personal enjoyment of our FT, we have thoroughly enjoyed meeting and living full time (6+ months a year) with our many motor homing friends. We especially enjoy "RiverBend - the friendliest Motorcoach Resort in the Nation". One of the many strengths of this resort is that RiverBend has a highly active and non-partisan social network, nicer than any we've experienced anywhere across the nation. The core reason is that RiverBend has always promoted and thrived on volunteerism vs. paid employees (we enjoy volunteered professional level services in the management, restaurant, recreation, maintenance, entertainment areas, etc. - all managed and staffed by owners and long term lessees). Because I enjoy meeting and helping newcomers, I contribute my part by volunteering as a Resort Ambassador/Tour Guide and I have organized/led the Motorcycle Club for several years, spending at least two days (and often more) each week. Brenda does the Library and Craft Shows management and staffing.
Part 3: As a result of plentiful contacts and because I enjoy "wrenching", I frequently hear and become involved with helping resolve SOB coach problems. I'm continually amazed at how fortunate we FT owners are in comparison to the SOB population. Based on a lot of the SOB problems I've seen/become involved with, one would think that FT's would be an easy sell. But it frequently doesn't pan out that way. Even after careful FT and ForeForum ambassadorship, SOB owners end up never seriously evaluating a Foretravel before they trade. They just trade their generic problems (gp's) with Tiffin for Newmar gp's or their Winnebago for Fleetwood gp's or their Travel Supreme for Country Coach or Monaco or SMC or Bluebird gp's or their Newell for Prevost Conversion gp's, etc., etc. Many of their coaches, whether purchased new or used, are several years old now and their "unresolved problems list" is many times longer than their PDI problems list. Some appear to be tens of thousands of dollars shy of final resolution or reasonable satisfaction. Which gets me to the crux of my post:
Part 4: I've long tried to understand why these seemingly successful, intelligent people make such poorly informed/researched decisions on the coaches that they buy.
Of course some are easy to understand in that they are just plain CRAZY-STUPID to reality, or they need to have their GLITZ & BLING at any cost, or they are TOO WEALTHY TO CARE or be bothered, or some, I think, just enjoy being the MARTYR, but I'm more interested in the many others that seem to seriously want "a high quality coach", in FT terms, but never really evaluate a Foretravel, new or used, buying SOB's, loaded with generic problems, for more money, instead. I understand that it can be confusing and can involve a lot of hard work sorting out facts from fiction.
I often conclude that the root cause of THEIR ongoing problems is that many SOB buyers just don't know HOW to do a disciplined comparison analysis, such as a Root Cause (based) Comparison Analysis (RCA) or they just don't want to make the effort, relying entirely on their (or their wife's) whims and emotions instead.
When SOB owners start talking about their disappointments with their coaches, I've sometimes found that helping them do a simple "5 Whys" Root Cause Analysis (RCA) earns more respect and lasting impact than anything else.
Rather than jumping to easy, EMOTIONAL conclusions, using a simple RCA often leads to a very different root cause determination. I urge them to write down a clear problem statement and then ask several levels of WHY? After trying it a few times, they better understand the Root Cause of their problem, getting out of an emotional "quick-judgmentloop" and it helps them find their way out of their SOB "do-loop" problems. To demonstrate the process, here's a fictional (whimsical) example:
Problem Statement: I have to buy a new car, because mine is becoming dangerously unreliable.
I was on my way back home from a trip to town when my car quit, stranding me in the middle of a busy three lane highway.
1. Why did your car quit?
- Because it ran out of gas.
2. Why did it run out of gas?
- Because I didn't buy any gas on my way into town.
3. Why didn't you buy any gas?
- Because I didn't have enough money.
4. Why didn't you have enough money?
- Because I lost it all last night in a poker game.
5. Why did you lose your money in last night's poker game?
- Because I'm not very good at "bluffing" when I don't have a good hand.
Root Cause of the Problem: Bluffing Skills deficiency
Problem Solution: Keep the car (Sometimes you can get to the root cause in fewer than five steps, sometimes it takes more).
Now for a real world, true example:
Problem Statement: I want to use Coach Washing Co. XYZ, but another Coach owner advises " XYZ totaled my NEW coach. Don't ever use them to wash your coach!"
1. Why was your NEW coach totaled?
- Because it caught fire.
2. Why did it catch fire?
- Because XYZ was power washing my engine.
3. Why was XYZ power washing your engine?
- Because I pointed out to them that I had a buildup of dirt on one side of the engine.
4. Why was there a buildup of dirt?
- Something was leaking.
5. Why was something leaking?
- Because a fuel return line fitting was improperly crimped (at, or for, the factory?) and had a small leak.
6. How did that lead to XYZ starting a fire? (Why is exchangeable with What, Where, How and When)
- The poorly crimped return fuel hose was forced out of the fitting during the pressure washing. Fuel then got into the electronics below the leak and the electronics shorted out. The sparking electronics combusted raw diesel fuel. Fuel continued to siphon out of the full fuel tank, further fueling the fire. Bolt-cutting-off the battery cables at the batteries finally stopped the arcing and the fire stopped reigniting. Flames were higher than the roof of the coach for many minutes before the fire was eventually turned and brought under control.
Root Cause of Problem: Defective crimp of a fuel line fitting (for, or at, the SOB factory?) on a new coach production line.
Problem Solution: XYZ is perfectly acceptable to wash/detail a coach. If you do not have the skills, use a reputable diesel repair shop to address engine leaks and (steam) clean your engine.
You get my point. Doing some quick, rudimentary Root Cause Analysis (RCA) can often get you beyond the owner's emotions and closer to the actual cause of a problem.
Before we bought our coach we were definitely having a hard time sorting out the "wheat from the chafe" with all of the multiple brands and owners that we were talking to. I eventually came around to using the more laborious but more common sense nuclear industry learning techniques (every problem, incident or adverse event is a PERFECT opportunity to learn from and improve safety and quality).
Thus, I started asking coach owners a standard "warm-up" question: "If you had to chose one, what thing do you like the most about your coach?" Then, if they were obviously amiable and wanted to continue: "If you had to chose one, what problem has caused you the most grief with your coach?" And then, as appropriate, start detailing that problem with the "Why's", to try to get as close to a good Root Causes as you can. Some conversations, as expected, were duds while the more fruitful ones went on for hours and even years as we bumbled along to our decision. Of course, while it's still fresh, write down some notes or the details will become lost in a serious search.
If some of you chose to use this approach, hopefully, some interest in RCA might be passed on to SOB owner's and they in turn might become more interested in FT's, and see a reasonable way to sort out the "facts vs. fiction"/"SOB's vs. FT's". Eventually that might lead to even more gains in the FT vs. SOB explorations.
It strikes me as amazing that we FoFums devote much (most?) of our energies and imagination to continuously tweaking and personalizing our Foretravels. In contrast, many of our SOB brethren are so thoroughly consumed in tedious "do-loops", trying to prioritize and work down their on-going problems list to a tolerable level, that they have no creative energies or inclinations left for anything else. And, many seem to take for granted that all brands are created equal in terms of endless problems. Others seem to feel that they just have a "lemon" or they are having a bit of "hard luck". They never see that there ARE significant differences in design and construction quality, SOB vs. FT, even when it is directly pointed out to them.
I talked with an SOB Owner, yesterday, who was blaming Camping World for several on-going AC associated problems;
- Nine months old, high end Newmar,
- Failed rear air conditioner internals replaced by the original Newmar sales and service center (Warranty),
-Motor failed again,
-Next replaced (no Warranty) by Camping World (100°F+ weather and many miles from Newmar),
-Original model AC motor/compressor internals were no longer available (per CW),
- CW installed a complete replacement AC that was not compatible with the installed AC controller (a two vs. three speed motors issue) and CW plus Newmar couldn't figure out how to reconfigure,
-AC controller changed out at another Newmar sales and service center,
- But there, Newmar discovered that the original installed motor power wiring (gauge) was not compatible with the new AC unit installed by Camping World (was likely the root cause of the original AC motor failures......running voltage, at the motor, was too low in some or all speeds because the wiring was inadequate to begin with?),
- Newmar installed new, proper gauge wires,
-Now the ceiling is damaged and remains unsightly,
- The overhead lights in the bedroom and the backup camera don't work and there's a three week wait until the next available Newmar service date.
-One unhappy SOB owner, blaming CW, about eight months into this problem, still professes to be a Newmar fan,
-He has a LONG list of other, unresolved problems dating back to his new coach PDI!
Anyway. That's my take on how to explore the benefits of FT vs. SOB ownership (as well as how to learn or continuously improve, following any problem, unexpected event or incident that you may experience).
I hope that this may be of some use to some of you and that I didn't bore you to tears!
Neal
Thanks Barry,
I still don't understand why I have so much difficulty making the copy transition from MS Word, through any of my Browsers (FF, IE, Chrome), to a paste into FoFums, myself
Neal
Neal and Barry, I love it. I think all of us are salesmen for FT and every time I talk with a wannabe I run into the same dialog that you have. I do not have the best looking, most upgraded coach but after years of exposure and with the info from this and the old Yahoo site I THINK that I will be able to keep the old girl on the road for a long time to come. I would really like to see some sort of data on how many 18 year old SOB's are still rolling. Even with some parts getting hard to find the FT quality still allows me ( and us ) to keep em going.
JMHO
Gary B
Neal. I have also had trouble at times converting a document from MS Word into the forum. I use Google Chrome also.
My method, Type it in Word but save it as a plain text doc. Then copy and paste to FF BUT, before you POST IT save it as a DRAFT. Then reopen and edit if needed and then post. On any long document I do this, probably not necessary for the short reply.
Gary B
No matter what brand of anything one buys, there is always the possibility of getting a piece of junk. There is probably a similar probability of getting something that is absolutely perfect. Most items will fall somewhere between the two extremes. When one buys a brand new coach, one should expect that there will be some problems (after all, imperfect people build them), but that those problems should be taken care of fairly quickly and professionally. Buying a used coach, though, is a completely different issue.
When one buys a used coach, as we must, looking at coaches that have a reputation for high quality is just the starting point. How well the coach has been maintained is just as important as starting with a good foundation. For us, another filter was the owners forum. We wanted to buy a brand that has a fair number of owners "getting their hands dirty" as they maintain their coaches. There are some brands where the only "tool" the owners have is a credit card with an extremely high limit.
We're looking at 'Birds, Foretravels, and Newells. Tiffins and Newmars were originally on our list, until we found out that they weren't really competing with the three on our short list. As near as we can tell, those three were more or less head-to-head competitors, with the Foretravel being the lowest priced of the three, although not by much. I'm pretty sure that we will be well pleased with whatever we end up with. The coach we buy will be one of those three brands, well maintained, and priced in our price range. We're actively searching, and we know the right coach is out there. Whether we find it today or next year, we'll find it.
Gary, take a look at PPL. Scroll to the bottom of the DP list, and see what you see. Not much.
It strikes me as amazing that we FoFums devote much (most?) of our energies and imagination to continuously tweaking and personalizing our Foretravels. In contrast, many of our SOB brethren are so thoroughly consumed in tedious "do-loops", trying to prioritize and work down their on-going problems list to a tolerable level, that they have no creative energies or inclinations left for anything else. And, many seem to take for granted that all brands are created equal in terms of endless problems.
Neal,
Gotta say I enjoyed the above a lot, seems as you were talking to me directly, as that about fits my energys.
Maybe I am just lucky, but in the past 4+ years, this has been a trouble free coach.
Thanks for the posting.
Dave M
First the good news is this issue is being worked on and in a future revision of the forum software it will be much improved. Now future and paid software means when its ready, and future for free / open source software is as people have time to work on it and its ready ... meaning :-\
Why this is so difficult is that all of these programs speak different languages.
- When you copy from Word to the clipboard it is copied it on the clipboard as rich text data (my guess)
- When you then paste it in to a browser window, the browser says I don't speak rich text so I'll convert it to HTML as best I can and however I want. Each browser (and browser revision) will do this conversion as it likes, meaning the HTML will be different for each browser.
- Then the forum software goes, well I don't really speak fluent HTML, nor do I store posts in that format, so I'll convert it to my language (BBC) as best I can
So its a game of tin can telephone, and a great looking post in Word can get pretty mangled by the time all these translations are done. The new software update is much much better in doing this translation, its just not ready yet!
Thanks Steve. I intuitively suspected that, but having it in words is much more comforting.
No rush.
Coping mechanisms working fine and we all appreciate the GOLDEN GEESE!
Neal
When we looked at all the great coaches at the show, lots of lights and mirrors, I thought "What will it look like in 15 years?" Having seen a 15 year old Foretravel as well as the SOBs it was an easy decision to make. Just how many SOBs go back to the factory to be updated? That is the true, real world test.
Keith
Just so those doing detailed research get a true representation, my FT has not been anywhere near trouble free. In fact, it has given me about the same amount of trouble and needed repairs as my previous '06 Monaco coach. Being an '07 coach, some of this I expect but too many items have been a result of poor assembly and QC.
In my humble opinion, the best thing Foretravel has going for it is that it is a smaller operation where service and sales work closely with customers and will address problems. The bigger outfits just can't give that level of service when the sales force are RV dealerships primarily in the business to sell units and sell them quickly.
I think this is part of the mystic of why so many return to FOT and grow loyal to the brand.
Brrving,
But how much trouble is the Foretravel and how much the parts manufactured by others? If everyone uses Dometic a/c units for example that should be a wash for comparison purposes. It's build and design quality that matter. Does the coach have good enough "bones" to be long lasting?
Keith
Keith,
You've got the idea!
If the root cause is in a universal Dometic AC model, then many brands may likely have the problem. If Dometic made a proprietary model for coach brand XYZ, then the field of influence is greatly reduced. If the Root Cause is undersized power wiring or the coach company can't or won't produce engineered wiring drawings or the coach company is simply unresponsive to the problem or there is no FoFums-type support, then these are entirely different root causes or failure modes effects that may not be as easily lived with.
Without tracking down an accurate Root Cause, one is still dealing more with emotions than facts.
David,
I'm not interested in bashing any brands at all, BUT I am willing to share what I have for factual knowledge.
Send me a PM if you have any interest.
Neal
Our U300 is 20 years old but the drawer glides still work like new, the closet doors don't sag, in short, I'm always pleasantly surprised when I have not been inside for a week or two of how together it is. Under the skin, the plumbing, electrical wiring are well organized with thoughful care taken in assembly. As the others have mentioned, the running gear, appliances, air conditioning are either RV standard or HD gear found on trucks and buses. Ratios, engines, brakes have been sized well for the weight of the coach.
Sure, there are things about the coach I can question, but only occasionally, not on a daily basis like several other major brands. I still remember a Eugene, OR salesman hitting a kitchen drawer bottom when it suddenly popped out onto the floor.
Unless you can afford a well done bus conversion, a Foretravel is at least equal to a couple of other high end coaches and well above the crowd. And as for the bus conversions, it's hard to find a model that can be lived with day after day without feeling you belong (or are living) in a Las Vegas casino.
Outside of a belt, air bag and a tire, nothing has failed in 25,000 miles and 3 years plus of ownership. Lots of small upgrades but not because of failures.
Pierce
We recently attended a relatively small RV show in Spokane, WA. Lots of "light" trailers that seemed pretty flimsy. Several DPs that did not seem as nice as our 1993 FT. Some pickup campers that were, in a word, huge!!!
Really, after all was said and done the only RVs at this show that appeared to us to be built well enough to last 20 years were the Airstream trailers.
Several $200,000 plus motor homes. I could not find any access to the engine. Rear bathrooms are nice but I walked around the back and could not find any way to the engine unless I laid down on the floor and scooted in on my back. (I didn't actually try it... and I could be wrong about that, actually.)
Some of these rigs had 5 televisions sets. One on each side of the "salon", one over the front, one in the bedroom, and one in the "basement".
Almost everything from a teardrop to a 45' DP had slides. One pickup camper had 3 slides (one on each side and one to the rear) and an island kitchen!!!
Pretty much of an eye-opener.
Craig
Neal, I have a 10 year old 40' Winnie DP that has been a good coach over the last 3 years, but I'm very impressed with what I read about the FT coaches and I think my next coach will be an FT. I'm unable to open your decision analysis attachment and I'm very interested in seeing it. Is it attached as a pdf? Is there another way that I can get a copy.
Thanks,
Pete
Pete, I have put the text of it below.
Foretravel vs. SOB Decision Analysis (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=17237.msg114129#msg114129)
The lack of knowledgeable ( qualified) service facilities ( as far as mods go) can also be a bad thing. I've had some work done on my FT at a place in central FL ( new desk, outside TV and extra storage cabinet, new radio and re-plumb the wet bay) and at a place in Jacksonville, FL (rebuild and tile the entry steps and install a new awning over the slide) and the techs could not figure their way around to open the slide - and one guy couldn't even start the thing because the slide wasn't "locked" closed. Had to tell him over the phone how to get it closed. That has caused me to determine that if I ever need any more major work modification done ( probably not) I will drive the 1000 miles from FL to MOT in TX where I know the coach will be in good hands.
I have no problem with regular oil changes, Aqua Hot maintenance, etc. with local facilities though.
I too find it amazing how long lasting and durable these coaches can be and are - and how much money people will spend ( I have put $15K "personalizing" mine in less than 18 months and the person I bought it from had spent $30K updating it before it was sold to me... and the owner before HIM had a $22K paint job done at Extreme Graphics!) to update them... but they drive incredibly well and are a unique motor home. I also knew when I bought my FT that I was going to spend a few bucks to "make it mine" to fit our needs.
Getting on the road can always hold surprises for us no matter which brand you drive though. Is it going to start? Will the slide come in? Will the jacks work? What's THAT noise??? Heck, I had those questions in my brand new Tiffin when I had IT. Like my FT much better :) Unfortunately I can't afford a new one so I'll just keep updating mine for awhile :)
Keith,
Yes good point. Several issues have been supplier parts, but others have been build issues (i.e. water leaks in multiple areas of the coach). I was expecting higher quality control in a "top" line manufacturer.
When we began our research more than two years ago, we were advised to look ONLY at high quality coaches, even if that meant getting an older coach. Since we don't have our Foretravel yet, I can't say from personal experience that the advice was good, but it sure seems that way. Granted that any coach can be abused and/or neglected, it seems to me that starting with a higher quality coach will generally pay off in the end.
I love the look on people's faces when I show them, with a light push, how easy our bathroom door closes--and on a 24 year old coach yet!! Quality and design endures!
Well I'm reviving this year and a half old thread since I've compared 3-4 SOBs in factory tours and RV shows. I saw Barry's analysis, but is there something that can provide a pro/con chart vs. an SOB or a spreadsheet of the FT in an analysis regarding all the mechanical issues you would think of, i.e., chassis, engine, trans, A/C, suspension, service, slides, etc. Specifically "why" FT are better than SOBs.
Thanks for any help or direction where to find this.
There is a school of thought that such spread sheets are used by most to justify a decision already made. Â I'm just sayin'
It's in the same category that you have a meeting and everyone is to throw out ideas and no one is allowed to criticize.
They sound good. But...
best, paul
Here is the best I can advise--- my 1990 U280 is a go anywhere, never stop machine, it never breaks, and it's still worth more than I paid for it! All the doors close without dragging, it is quiet on the road ( you have to listen carefully to tell if the Cat 3208T is running) and it is economical to operate. I don't think you can beat them, and if you ever want to sell it--- someone will buy it! What more could you ask for?
Tough one to figure out except to say check out the # of mid 80s to mid 90 coaches that people have on this Forum and how they love them, then go to your local RV showrooms and see what a comparable year SOB is like and cost and that should give you a good idea of the build and quality FT has. You may not even find any early 90 SOBs around that are worth stepping into, but step into a 93 GV and you will feel at home! (just used 93 as an example).
The factory still has parts etc for these year coaches so that must mean something, and of course this Forum is worth it's weight in gold too.
Engine/Transmission are all same whichever make except in many FTs the Allison has a Retarder on it and most of the SOB do not put this on (even their new ones). many FT coaches have outboard air bag suspension= smooth ride.
Others will chime in here no doubt, and even one of the members used to sell these so would maybe know other reasons.
I have owned 3 FT and they are nice to work on and update if wanted. Only other coach I will consider is Newell and Prevost.
JohnH
Look at the number of "hand crafted" motorhomes Foretravel vs SOB. At any given year. Find a 88 SOB there are many 88s here still used regularly.
Ask yourself, do I want what everyone else has or a classic? What experience in rving do you have? Maintenance are you doing it?
what are you going to use it for, 2000 miles a year, vacations, retirement, fulltiming? These are important questions that will factor into your selection.
further considerations are floorplan, costs and budget, exterior looks, interior looks. Realizr unless you purchase 2000 or newer the interior may be dated.
you will make a good decision ^.^d
most important, is this Forum, the experience, care and assistance.
My 30 year electrical guru was working on my u320 today around 2 o'clock ca time.
He called a buddy that runs a owned Rv spot camp ground. Told him to turn on the breaker for his borrowed from his old customer 1991 Angola prevost le mirage 40'.
Bill said it would take four hours with all three airs on to get the coach to be useable.
And two a/c's at 95 degrees external to maintain the internal temp barely
Foretravel was comfortable at upper 80's with everything closed up and no air on at all.
Fiberglass versus painted aluminum.
My other similar choices are country coach or a marquis.
Laminated fiberglass sidewalls and roofs like all the Foretravel products.
Unless you do not mind either plugging in the coach or three dollars an hour to run the gen like most new owners find out they have to do.
I've shared this before, but perhaps a brief review of our process will help others.
When we made the preliminary decision to be full-timers we were open to Class A motorhomes, fifth-wheels, and travel trailers. We had eliminated pop-ups, class C motor homes and pickup campers as just too small for us. We were constantly advised to consider only high quality coaches, no matter what class we picked. As we researched we learned that, as a general rule, people who move more often are better served with a MH, while those who stay in one place for months at a time are better served with towables. Our discussions led us to decide that we would probably be moving at least monthly, and probably more like 2-3 times per month, so we started leaning toward a Class A.
Several brands were mentioned quite often, Foretravel among them. One requirement that I had was an active owners forum that showed the owners were involved in the daily maintenance of their coaches. Another was that the forum would accept a member who didn't yet own a coach. That requirement eliminated one brand. Another brand was eliminated because of on-going legal wrangling.
As we took a realistic look at the age of the coach we could afford we decided that whether or not the brand was still in production was a secondary consideration. The fact that a brand was still in production was somewhat of a plus, but since things like refrigerators, air conditioners, etc. are pretty much interchangeable from brand to brand meant that if there was a problem with one of them it was likely that I would be able to get it worked on or replaced easily.
Eventually we narrowed our search down to three brands that fit our needs and wants. Two of the three are still in production, and the owners forum of the third has several people who know as much as must factory support people, so I was comfortable in considering them. I was resigned to having to travel quite a distance to get our coach, since this isn't a hot RV area. As luck would have it, though, the closest coach to us, only six hours away, was a Foretravel. Jo Ann loved it, and within a month of first seeing it we had it sitting in our yard.
Bob, we DO NOT use A/c in coach, cars or home and it does get in the low 100s here. Just had about 1 month of high 90s. Hate AC just need fans to move the air. Any coach I have would be fitted with the max solar I can fit on roof as it powers all we need. Maybe you missed my posts that we also do not use Genset. This topic is about FT vs the rest.
JohnH
We agree. 99% of rv'ers run the a/c. Most new coaches have poor windows to open. Flush mount. Busses especially
17 years old and still going. We wanted a FT but had a hard time finding one in our price range with a slide. Next time we up grade to our final coach we will look at FT again.
My other favorite coach. A magna. Nice quality product. Prettier inside in those days versus a Foretravel. I have an electric true genius here in so cal that can repair and modernize your country coach. And a separate mechanical guy also here.
They even used tinned wires in the loom. Last forever. Sikkens paint. Steel framed bonded sidewalls. Lazer aligned at every station during assembly. No sawdust behind the cabinets.
Inside is sorta basic. We are getting rid of the rocker and try and fit a couch.
Nice coaches CC. Friend has a 2006 Magna c/w 3 slides he got for $180k. I have worked on it a fair bit for him and they are put together well I must agree, but heavy.
JohnH
Ah. A galley slide. Watched my buddy correct the mis engineered drain on the sink on a similar country coach.
Worth the plumbing issues to put the galley on the drivers side and the dinette under the awning side facing your campsite.
I noticed the late Foretravels went to a street side galley slide also.
Cat in yours?
I don't know why so many floor plans have the dinette on the drivers side. Our last coach was like that looking at your neighbors and the sewer line while sitting and eating. This coach has a DT466 in it.
I recall first seeing the driver side dinette appear with the first living room slides. With only one slide, better to have it on the driver side, opposite the door. And early slide manufacturers were reluctant to have the kitchen plumbing in the slide.
Yes flexing the connections adds to the fun
The fact remains, Foretravel is a very conservative company. They were very late in offering slides, in offering quad slides, and still not there with full wall slides. Did they ever put kitchens in the slides? I remember when Motorhome magazine reviewed the first motorhome with a slide, they noted that empty and dry, it was already overweight.
In many ways what cm and ray fore told me was true. They really did know what was better mechanically. Beauty and salesmanship they lacked.
Super luxura and ftx and early grand villa coaches used to be stripped. Cm told me he was not a very good salesman and the customers would ask him to throw accessories "in" that he did not make. So he did not put them on the coaches.
Mike grimes loved me as I loaded my coaches up after they arrived in ca. $10-$15k a month in awnings, mirrors, power seat bases(used to put two on at 90 degrees to each other), Intec backup cameras(Foretravel was the first manufacturer to install cameras in the 1981's) and on.
My shop mechanics got paid more also that way. Helped them out.
Foretravel finally let me do what I wanted as we went from 25 coaches a year to 59. Embarrassed them on profits also. Not greedy but needed to not have the store lose $500k a year. Then cm told me they then had the money to invest in the R&D that resulted in the unihome. Did not know that until later.