Good Morning everyone:
Not sure if this is the correct board for this question but here goes.
We picked up our 1998 U270 from MOT on Jan 11th then promptly proceded to put 3300 miles on it. We did have two problems. On the way to Seqiun, TX the alternator decided to go. Limped back to MOT where they did a real quick job in repairing the problem. The other problem was in Ala. Unknown to me somehow the air dryer filter came loose and the coach would not hold air, got road side service to come out. Cost me $80 for the 10 min. repair. Another lesson learned. Had no further problems the rest of the trip.
Now to my question. In talking with several friends that own diesels, mostly pickups, they say I should go to synthetic oil for the engine and transmission. I know it is available for for the trans. not sure about the engine.
I know that the last service on the coach was June 2012, however other than oil and filters not sure as to the extent of the service.
Would it be worth it, if syn. oil is avail. to change to it? I do plan to service the coach prior to our next long trip starting early May.
If this is available where other than NAC could this be done?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Norm
With the lower oil capacity of the 8.3, it wouldn't be too horribly expensive - as long as you were willing to do oil analysis to extend your change intervals.
Synthetic really shines in extreme conditions. RV diesels rarely if ever operate there - overtemp, automatic shutdown. Extreme cold - not worth the trouble.
Norm, You will find opinions both ways about synthetic oils. I for one don't think they are Worth the cost. I have an oil analysis done at each change by Blackstone Labs, and over ten years have never had a problem with this coach using Rotella. I do my own changes and other use quick change shops on the interstate. Like Speedco. At the rate most of use add miles an annual service ( or maybe more ) is all that is needed.
Do searches on this Forum and you will find all kinds of help.
Good luck.
Gary B
my 2 cents, go for it. I totally believe in it and as all know I use Amsoil in all places-yes even in Allison.
As Gary said lots of opinions and this is mine
John H
Allison reccomended synthetic and it is worth it with extended drain intervals and lower temps. For the engine I have not been able to justify the cost.
how much is a quart of the regular oil compared to what I pay in Amsoil--my cost $8 each x 20=$160
I have the same oil in now for 20k miles and the last analasys was perfect. This has saved me changing it with the "regular stuff" and cost of filters, so I think I have saved money AND the engine is well protected and running great. No contest.
John H
I'm full synthetic in the U225. I use Shell Rotella T-6 5W40, CJ4, which gets excellent Used Oil Analysis ravings for the Cummins 5.9 over at - Bob is the Oil Guy (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com) forum. Have Allison TranSynd™ in the MT643 transmission. And have synthetic in the rear end. Also using synthetic in all other vehicles and garden equipment. I have been using synthetic since Popular Mechanics, way back in the 1970s, ran a story on Mobil 1 and testing in a Cadillac for 100,000 miles without changing the oil. They mic'ed everything in that engine and it was still all within new spec measurements. My old VW TDI diesel that got synthetic oil changes every 1800 miles, and has well over 200,000 miles on it, is still running around. I do not use snake oil additives.
what are "snake oil" additives Pat?
Amsoil was the firstcommercially available synth in the N american market and was started in 1966 and in 72 Amsoil was the first motor oil in the WORLD to be given the API service requirement label All the others followed years later as they realised they could not compete with it.
Read all about it
John
Snake Oil is the miracle in a can you know th stuff that rebuilds you motor, renews th gaskets & seals. To me, that is "Snake Oil", Some guys go for it. :o ;D
Dave M
Snake oil - "Slick 50, Rislone, and stuff that makes oil "slippier". Waste of money and does nothing for you engine except makes you feel better. Nothing fixes torn seals or bad gaskets.
Funny I go 15K miles on my regular oil without an issue and no extra expense of synthetic. I have an electronic engine but that is the cummins spec. I had the oil checked every other change.
John, I cannot do maths as I should have said 20k now (I changed the posting to show this)
Sorry
John H
Oil is CHEAP insurance, why I change at least every 6 months no matter the mileage.
As usual I highly recommend that everyone do exactly what makes them feel the best.
What works for me, may not work for anyone else. The cost of an oil & filter change is pennies in the overall game. All called opinion and I have a few.
Dave M
Dave I usually change the oil at least three times a year but try to get 15K on each one. Sure sometimes it is shorter about 12 and even 8K but that is when I am going to go on a long trip.
Dave, oil IS cheap insurance and that is why I go with the best there is. Rather than spend fortunes on style changes I use some of it to make sure my engine is getting the best I can give it as without the engine all the other mods that people spend thousands on to make the coach look impressive or fit a new feeling are useless if it does not drive anywhere. I do my own work most times so $200 on oil is cheap change. No $1000.00 daily camping fee at FT for me. Long trips/ short trips to me does not change the quality of oil I use.
Called opinions as you say.
Whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy, eh
John H
I am hapy if your happy John.
Smile, W&Fuzzy
Dave M
Take care Dave, and maybe next year we will be in your area--hoping.
John H
Drove my tractor 950,000 miles with Rotella every 15,000 miles then gave it to my brother who put another 50,000 miles before trading it in for a new tractor. As far as I know there is still nothing wrong wit that Cat. I'll stick with Rotella.
Roland
I switched to AMSoil synthetic two years ago and installed a two micron bypass filter. Just had oil analysis done after 10,000 miles and Oil is good for continued service.
Cummins recommends oil change every 6 months, regardless of mileage. I have had some Foretravel owners tell me that going years with synthetic will not work because of the water which gets in the oil, particularly when in Canada or other places where there is high humidity.
Last analysis showed less than 0.1 percent water, and I summer in Victoria, BC, Canada.
Changing 10 gallons of oil every six months would be very expensive.
I do wonder what the oil analysis would reveal if I was using non-synthetic oil with the by-pass filter.
I plan to have oil analysis done every two years (10,000 miles) and changing oil when recommended from oil analysis (every five or ten years).
Wyatt, my analasys before the last trip was that, as you I use a bypass filter too and water content was 0.00 %, fuel 0,00% and the rest of readings are way below the lowest reading on their charts. So as you I will keep on truckin' with it. I did not understand some of the readings as never had one done before so I sent the Catterpillar report to Amsoil and they e-mailed me back and said "it was an excellant one and keep doing what I am doing as the engine must be running great"
John
ps viscossity they said is 97% of original (chart shows 91%)
I've been interested in this discussion, so I finally checked the AMSoil site to see if they have an oil for our coach's engine. They do not.
How do you get a sample for analysis, Wyatt?
best, paul
Has anyone tried or has an opinion on Tufoil additive? Claims to be "worlds most efficient lubricant" by the Guiness Book of World Records (1996). Tufoil Engine Oil Treatment (http://www.tufoil.com/) If not for your engine then maybe for the genny to make it run smoother and quieter.
Tufoil Engine Oil Treatment – FAQs – Frequently Asked Question (http://www.tufoil.com/faqs.html)
Jerry
Re: Tufoil:
Many glowing reports on Amazon, etc. from Tufoil users, but the oft-quoted NASA report says (in part)
"In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is actually depriving parts of lubricant."
So the answer seems to be that it does in fact coat rubbing surfaces with PTFE, which can reduce friction, but it may also coat passageways with PTFE and from some reports can reduce flow through oil filters. One report that I read seemed to imply that the lubricating oil film was reduced (higher iron analysis in the oil).
I wouldn't use it, since getting even 1-2 mpg improvement isn't worth the risk of premature engine wear and overhaul. In any event, the major impact on MPG in our rigs is wind resistance, and for that, the best solution is probably to go with a Grand Villa front end :)) .
Forgot - The Tufoil Mfr says it can't be used in 2 strokes, either.
Couple of negative reviews to balance the ones in Amazon... :))
Tufoil Additive - Bob Is The Oil Guy (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=283448)
Slick 50 and other engine oil additives - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com (http://www.skepdic.com/slick50.html)
Company I worked for Had us stop using ptfe {Teflon} and other additives like STP on turbine rotor bearing journals during overhauls. There testing showed it stayed on the journal for quite a long time after start up and prevented proper heat transfore and oil flow within the bearings. As for 2 strokes I had a friend that though oil with Teflon would be great for his 2-cycle motorcycle. May have worked for the engine but not for the oil bath clutch . Gam
Thanks Guys,
The debate goes on for and against using oil additives and synthetics vs regular oil.
Dave,
A healthy dose of skepticism is always good to have when trying out a new product. I, like you wouldn't use this stuff just based on claims by those trying to sell it. Making it to the Guiness book of World Records isn't always a good thing. Thanks for the links to the The Skeptic's Dictionary and Bob is The Oil Guy. If it sounds to good to be true it probably is until proven otherwise. Karma for your research.
Gam,
Thanks for sharing your real world experience with this type of additive. Sometimes trying to to do something better can do more harm than good in the long run. A word to the wise is sufficient! Karma.
Jerry
Paul asked me "how do I get an oil sample?
I installed a "T" and an AMSoil oil sample valve on the inlet to the bypass filter.
With engine running, after driving a few miles so oils is well circulated, remove the cap and push the button on the valve and fill the sample cup with the dirtiest oil in the system.
Did a very unoffical check with several large trucking companys and ask about oils used in [engines and rear ends] . None use synthetic . The reason they gave was all the same "cost" I said But it is much better, reply most head was "we run our trucks 500,000 miles and trade them for new .One company said at 500,000 miles or so they do a "bottom end' and run them another 5000,000 miles then trade them in for new .Looks to me that they squeese out of each truck all there is . Moral of my effort is , I don't see any gain with [synthetic] . I know it is better--but--does it justify the cost , or is it a feel good thing for us ? Brad Metzger
@David (aka kb0zke) IIRC your coach has the 6v92 don't run anything but Delo 100 straight weight 40. It's a pain to find but worth it. Here is my post on searching for Delo 100. Delo 100 40wt or lack there of (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16571.msg106910)
see ya
ken
IF your only going to use the Delo 100 #40, You had best start lookkng for the next supply.
Me, it is alot of H.S., I being real dumb, have only used SAE #40 or #50 in all the DDC 2 Cycle diesel engines for the past 40 years, Have used, Shell, NAPA, EXXON, ant others I have forgotten the brand. If you use the Mil Spec #, and go with it. We no longer use a high sulfer diesel fuel in the USA, Mex, different story.
Never have had any issues what so ever concerning quality of oil, Would recommend paying more attention the the Mil Spec # 1404B, if I can recall that far back,
Naturally every one is the last word in know it all, why there is the laughter.
One small point, my opinions come with a min. of 40 years of experience and screw ups.
They do not always fit the bright bulb opinions.
FWIW
Dave M
Whether this comment interests you all or not but it is my take on this synthetic oil issue.
I, as you know use Amsoil and generally get 2 or more change intervals out of this oil, compared to just one of the regular stuff.
So, let us add a few things up. If reg oil costs $4 a litre and Amsoil is $8 (this is my cost), I have to go the 2 normal change periods to break even, but, you have to add into this the cost of 2 filters compared to one with Amsoil, so now it is costing more if you pay someone to do the dirty job.
2x labour compared to 1x labour. Way more cost!!
I have, like others have being doing oil analysis and mine, case in point, said carry on using it, so I am now up to 3 normal changes, Seems like simple maths to me, and in the mean time my results say that comtaminents, metals etc are almost non existant etc etc.
The biggest point is my engine temp is down and it even sounds good (disregarding the Resonator).
Dunno how to make it any simpler!!
regarding Paul's comment on Truckers,
First of all these guy's are self employed if they have their own truck but a lot work for big companies. If as a trucker you can claim cost of fuel and oils + service against you income tax maybe that is a possible reason to not bother with synthetics etra cost, but to me it is like sticking your head in the sand. I will see if I can get a list of Trucking companies that do use synthetics because with a big fleet the saving would be massive
John H
John,
I realize you live North of the 49th parallel, but down here we can get a gallon of Shell Rotella® Products - Shell Rotella
T6 (http://www.shell.com/rotella/products/t6.html) for less that $22 a gallon in most any Wallyworld. That works out to $5.50 a quart. And the Rotella T6 gets excellent used oil analysis reviews over at - Bob is the Oil Guy (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com).
In the real world, a large trucking company, with about 15,000 tractors on the road at anygiven time, IF each truck can save a lowly $1.00 a day EACH, that does amount to an interesting number indeed.
The local Cummins Dist shop service manager keeps telling me to change to the synthetic, I ask why, answer, cause he likes it, beyound that, nothing. As I keep saying its all OPINION.
Me, We buy 80 cases (6 gal case) Rotella 15W-40 every month of so for our service business, so also keeping the synthetic would be a pain, Like said earlier, I change oil every 6 months no matter the miles. Would hate to throw that high class stuff out, that would hurt. Some units take the 55 gal drums, good part, we have waste oil pickup and they pay us for it and solve the EPA squabble. A win-win.
FWIW
Dave M
Apart from the cost difference between AMSoil oil and ordinary oil, and the additional cost of the 2 micron filter, the cost difference is testing the AMSoil oil every 2 years vs testing ordinary oil every 6 months (IF the owner chooses to ignore the recommendation to change ordinary oil every 6 months - AND both the AMSoil oil and the ordinary oil are good for 2 years).
The 2 micron filter appears to put the odds in favor of AMSoil oil being good for 2 years.
I wonder how ordinary oil would do after 2 years with a 2 micron filter? And whether an owner would risk going 2 years without a test.
Would it make sense to try ordinary oil and a 2 micron by-pass filter? What would installing a 2 micron filter cost? The additional plumbing does not appear to be trivial...
best, paul
Total cost of the bypass filter setup was $231. The AMSoil bypass filter kit was $107, the hose was $43, the filter was $42, sample valve was $29, brass fittings were $10.
Paul, I also wonder how ordinary oil would test after 2 years and 10,000 miles with just a bypass filter.
AMSoil claims that their synthetic oil has chemicals in it which make it possible to use their oil for up to 25,000 miles, while ordinary oil will break down and cause rapid physical/chemical (acids) wear after just a few thousand miles. The sales guy at Quartzsite told me that he sold to a trucking company which tests AMSoil synthetic twice a year and go 100,000 miles between changes. Fact or fiction, I do not know.
I do know that after installing AMS oil and bypass filter, then driving 1500 miles to Canada, the oil was so clear that it looked like it had just been changed. The oil now is not as clear and has that black diesel engine oil look.
I anticipate doing oil analysis every year and not changing oil for 25,000 miles (5 years), which would be ten oil changes at Cummins recommendations.
Who would you recommend to install the filter, Wyatt?
best, paul
I installed the bypass filter myself with the help of "Mechanic Mike" at the Slabs (near Niland, CA).
I could talk to Mike and send you his phone number. It would be a short drive for you from El Centro to the Slabs.
Mike charges $20/hour and does good work.
I will be leaving for Canada on April 23rd or 24th.
Thanks, Wyatt.
But I'm leaving at the same time to go to the SF Bay Area and replace a toilet and fridge.
I'll do oil later.
best, paul
I bough a NTZ filter and SS hoses on EBay .I have less then $100 in the hole system. With in the first few miles after an oil change the oil always look black with carbon. After driving with the bypass installed the black oil now looks like new. The return from the bypass filter goes into the filler cap on my valve cover so a sample isn't a problem.Gam
Here's a couple of very interesting articles on diesel oils/brands and their components & effects on diesel wear.
Brands and oils are analyzed and ranked according to components. First article (TDR56) sets the stage.
Second article (TDR57) analyzes many more oils and ranks them.
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR56_Oil.pdf (http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR56_Oil.pdf)
http://turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf (http://turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf)
Summary of the lube engineer's evaluations and ranking (from TDR57):
Best category:
Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue 15W40 CI-4 plus
Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 CI-4 plus (note that this may be replaced by T6 synthetic, which was not analyzed) Shell Rotella T non synthetic gets very low marks in the analysis.
Cummins/Valvoline Premium Blue Syn. 5W40 CI-4 plus
Pennzoil Long Life 15W40 CI-4 plus
Chevron Delo 400 15W40 CI-4 plus
Red Line Diesel Synthetic 15W40 CI-4 plus
Extracts from the first article:
The author/lube engineer strongly recommends API rating of CI-4 Plus, rather than CJ-4. Reasons are that the newer spec (CJ-4) was formulated to accommodate the newest diesel technology with particulate traps that can get plugged easily. To do this, CJ-4 lowers the amount of zinc and detergent content. Zinc is important for high pressure film strength - needed for the cam-driven injectors in a lot of our engines, and more detergents are generally a good thing in diesels. Higher content of both of those are asserted to increase particulate trap clogging.
Lots of detailed analysis for folks wanting to dig into it!
Regarding bypass filters, doesn't the Fleetguard 9009 (upgraded filter for 8.3 Cummins) have a bypass section in it?
I have the EaBP110 bypass filter too and it is a simple install.Dave, Amsoil Deisel oil is CI-4+ too.
John H
The 9009 is called a venturi combination filter because some of the oil is directed through a 5 micron filter via a venturi while most of the oil goes through something like a 30 micron filter. There is no way to determine when the 5 micron part is plugged and it will let through a small percentage of 5 micron particles.
Any particles larger then about 4 or 5 microns cause wear.
Bypass filters are about 2 microns and block 97% of 2 micron. AMSoil bypass blocks about 40% of 1 micron because of the way it is manufactured. When a Bypass filter is plugged, the can will be cold after driving. Also, the capacity of a bypass filter far exceeds that of the 9009.
The Fleetguard 9009 has a bypass section. I have been unable to find the absolute micron size for the bypass section of this filter. Using the 9009 my oil always looked black from carbon particals.I still use the 9009 but have added a 1 micron absolute by pass filter. It didn't take long for this filter to remove the carbon.The oil is still darker then new but this isn't from any contamination.By far most engine wear is caused by .5 to 2.0 micron sized particals.It may be over kill to add a bypass filter system.I only put about 10,000 miles a year on my coach. But I was taught that lube oil for a diesel is it's lifes blood .Gam