Title: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on March 19, 2013, 01:09:36 pm
Post by: kenhat on March 19, 2013, 01:09:36 pm
My hydraulic pump has had a slow leak for quite a while. I asked my mechanic at Stewart & Stevenson about it and he said it was fine just add 10-40w when needed. That was about a year and a half ago. Well now the slow leak has turn into a large leak and pondering my course of action.
The pump has 4 connections on it. 2 on top and 2 on bottom. I think that means mine is the one that powers the power steering and the radiator fan (I only have one fan on my radiator). I'd like to pull it and take it to a couple of hydraulic shops to see about repair. Has anyone done this? Things I'd like to know.
see ya
ken
The pump has 4 connections on it. 2 on top and 2 on bottom. I think that means mine is the one that powers the power steering and the radiator fan (I only have one fan on my radiator). I'd like to pull it and take it to a couple of hydraulic shops to see about repair. Has anyone done this? Things I'd like to know.
- How much work is it?
- Do I drain the oil first? If so how?
- When I disconnect the hoses does it drain the reservoir or only what's in the hoses?
- How much fluid are we talking about? Can I just unhook the hose and then let drain in a 5 gallon bucket?
- Any advise on where to find a good hydraulic shop in north Florida?
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Dwayne on March 19, 2013, 02:42:31 pm
Post by: Dwayne on March 19, 2013, 02:42:31 pm
Not sure if yours is the same as mine but a couple of years ago mine started leaking while on a trip. I was near Tallahassee at the time and pulled into a CAT dealer (Ringpower). Found out on this board that finding a direct replacement was not going to happen. Called FOT and they said my pump had an internal pressure relief valve and was no longer available. They sent a replacement along with the hoses and external pressure relief valve with instructions for the tech. As you are not stranded, you probably could take it off and have a hydraulic pump shop rebuild it for you. I don't think mine is for anything other than the fan (and running on transmission fluid instead of oil) so perhaps you have a different pump.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Don Hay on March 19, 2013, 04:03:38 pm
Post by: Don Hay on March 19, 2013, 04:03:38 pm
You may have a different hydraulic pump than is in my U-280; however, mine also powers the radiator fan pump and the power steering through two separate oil reservoirs. Anyway, my pump begain leaking a couple years ago; the local diesel mechanic was sure that it could be re-built, so he contacted his pump specialists in Houston. After getting all of the information (model, serial no. etc.) they said it couldn't be re-built. However a new pump was less than $400 (supplied from Houston). FOT wanted more than twice that amount. So far the new one is fine.
If you don't plug the hoses, the reservoir will drain and you will lose oil from the hoses. We had to replace several gallons of Del 400 15W-40 upon replacing the hydraulic pump.
If you should have issues with the hydraulic fan pump, that is a "horse of a different color". FOT stopped carrying the orginal hyd. fan pump; their replacement is entirely different and requires a total rebuild of the brackets that hold the fan pump. It was a real PITA.
If you don't plug the hoses, the reservoir will drain and you will lose oil from the hoses. We had to replace several gallons of Del 400 15W-40 upon replacing the hydraulic pump.
If you should have issues with the hydraulic fan pump, that is a "horse of a different color". FOT stopped carrying the orginal hyd. fan pump; their replacement is entirely different and requires a total rebuild of the brackets that hold the fan pump. It was a real PITA.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on March 19, 2013, 04:33:57 pm
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on March 19, 2013, 04:33:57 pm
Ken, Not sure if our pumps are similar. Mine leaked and I took it to a hydraulic shop, he removed the seal by drilling small holes in it and inserted a dry wall nail. A slap hammer was then used to yank the seal out. If he had not had to have the seal to get the replacement number this would have been a one hour job. New seal was put in next day and has not leaked since. Did not lose enough fluid that I had to add any.
Gary B
Gary B
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Twig on March 19, 2013, 04:35:46 pm
Post by: Twig on March 19, 2013, 04:35:46 pm
Hardest part for me was getting the pulley off. Once off, there are 2 bolts holding the pump on. I drained all the oil by disconnecting the hoses at the pump into a clean 5 gallon bucket ( my sump holds 4 ) and used it again by pouring it back in through a paint filter. Best course for me was to replace the pump with a new one. Hoses only connect back up one way. I also changed the filters in the sump, what the heck. Good luck.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 19, 2013, 04:44:19 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 19, 2013, 04:44:19 pm
My hydraulic pump has had a slow leak for quite a while. I asked my mechanic at Stewart & Stevenson about it and he said it was fine just add 10-40w when needed. That was about a year and a half ago. Well now the slow leak has turn into a large leak and pondering my course of action.
The pump has 4 connections on it. 2 on top and 2 on bottom. I think that means mine is the one that powers the power steering and the radiator fan (I only have one fan on my radiator). I'd like to pull it and take it to a couple of hydraulic shops to see about repair. Has anyone done this? Things I'd like to know.
- How much work is it?
- Do I drain the oil first? If so how?
- When I disconnect the hoses does it drain the reservoir or only what's in the hoses?
- How much fluid are we talking about? Can I just unhook the hose and then let drain in a 5 gallon bucket?
[/list]
- Any advise on where to find a good hydraulic shop in north Florida?
see ya
ken
If you can get your rig where you can get under it, it should only take 10 minutes or so if you have the right wrenches to do it with. Like Don said, you will have to plug the lines or you will have a big mess on your hands.
Age has caught up with the seals. Check to see the maker/model of your pump and call around to see who can do it, etc. They will probably just check internal pump clearances, replace the bearings and seals and it will be ready to go. Any hydraulic shop should have plugs for the end of the hoses when you remove them but good to have a bucket ready in case it takes a few seconds. Overhauling one of these pumps is not a big deal.
Start with the closest NAPA store with a truck parts counter. They should be able to refer you to someone in the area. Google online with your pump info also.
As far as parts go, bearings are bearings and probably the same for the seals also. If you have to change pumps, the bolt pattern along with the GPM (gallons per minute) and RPM needed should find an inexpensive replacement.
Foretravel must have installed 2 fans on the next year model to try and improve the cooling.
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Roland Begin on March 20, 2013, 10:52:37 am
Post by: Roland Begin on March 20, 2013, 10:52:37 am
You may have a different hydraulic pump than is in my U-280; however, mine also powers the radiator fan pump and the power steering through two separate oil reservoirs. Anyway, my pump begain leaking a couple years ago; the local diesel mechanic was sure that it could be re-built, so he contacted his pump specialists in Houston. After getting all of the information (model, serial no. etc.) they said it couldn't be re-built. However a new pump was less than $400 (supplied from Houston). FOT wanted more than twice that amount.
Ours also powers both the fan and power steering, it failed last spring and I had it rebuilt in Alamogordo NM. FOT quoted around a thousand dollars for a new pump. Don't remember the rebuild cost.
Roland
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Michelle on March 20, 2013, 11:12:57 am
Post by: Michelle on March 20, 2013, 11:12:57 am
Ours also powers both the fan and power steering, it failed last spring and I had it rebuilt in Alamogordo NM. FOT quoted around a thousand dollars for a new pump. Don't remember the rebuild cost.
The forum does ;)
Fan Pump (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=15317.msg93224#msg93224)
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Dave Cobb on March 20, 2013, 11:39:50 am
Post by: Dave Cobb on March 20, 2013, 11:39:50 am
The forum does ;)
Fan Pump (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=15317.msg93224#msg93224)
Michelle is sort of like the "Great Oz", all knowing and all search engine powered! We are oh so lucky to have her talents and time on the forum.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Roland Begin on March 20, 2013, 11:47:01 am
Post by: Roland Begin on March 20, 2013, 11:47:01 am
Michelle, you are amazing.....now why didn't I think of looking back at my own post? :facepalm:
Roland
Roland
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: coastprt on March 20, 2013, 01:15:08 pm
Post by: coastprt on March 20, 2013, 01:15:08 pm
Ken,
My coach is identical to Pierce's and has both a hydraulic fan pump and a power steering pump. The PO (thank goodness) had them both replaced in 2007 and I found copies of the repair bills. Along with a new hyd pump with both hoses and fittings, both fan motor seal kits were installed. Hyd oil 15-40 was replaced along with 2 belts. Parts came to about $800 (pump was $508) and 16 hrs labor for $1040. Grand total over $1800. The bill from a Ford dealer for the power steering pump replacement was $1300. Ouch!
Hope you can get by cheaper by rebuilding the pump and doing any of the work yourself. You might want to look at the hoses and fan motor while you're at it as they might need repair also. Of course you have to think about warranties if someone else does the work and you have to pay a much higher price.
Good luck,
Jerry
My coach is identical to Pierce's and has both a hydraulic fan pump and a power steering pump. The PO (thank goodness) had them both replaced in 2007 and I found copies of the repair bills. Along with a new hyd pump with both hoses and fittings, both fan motor seal kits were installed. Hyd oil 15-40 was replaced along with 2 belts. Parts came to about $800 (pump was $508) and 16 hrs labor for $1040. Grand total over $1800. The bill from a Ford dealer for the power steering pump replacement was $1300. Ouch!
Hope you can get by cheaper by rebuilding the pump and doing any of the work yourself. You might want to look at the hoses and fan motor while you're at it as they might need repair also. Of course you have to think about warranties if someone else does the work and you have to pay a much higher price.
Good luck,
Jerry
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 20, 2013, 01:30:53 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 20, 2013, 01:30:53 pm
I should have added that I have seen people insert a thin metal sleeve over the shaft. It increases the diameter and will make the old seal seal.
Also a possibility of doing it in place with the pulley off. Drill a small hole in the seal, use a $1.99 body work slide hammer with a screw attached and yank the old one off. Easy to fit a replacement then. Doubtful anything is really wrong with the pump, just a tired seal.
Pierce
Also a possibility of doing it in place with the pulley off. Drill a small hole in the seal, use a $1.99 body work slide hammer with a screw attached and yank the old one off. Easy to fit a replacement then. Doubtful anything is really wrong with the pump, just a tired seal.
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: gam on March 20, 2013, 01:57:05 pm
Post by: gam on March 20, 2013, 01:57:05 pm
Speedi-sleeves from .5" to 8" shaft diameters and they work great.Gam
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on March 20, 2013, 05:45:09 pm
Post by: kenhat on March 20, 2013, 05:45:09 pm
Thanks for all of the suggestions guys. I think I'll go with cleaning everything up, tighten hoses, and add stop leak. Hopefully that will at least slow it down. If that stops it I'll let it be but if not when I get somewhere I know I'll be for a while I'll try the Speedi-Sleeves (They look really cool!). I'll probably try the to pull the old seal with a body puller as Pierce suggests. I might be able to do all this without even pulling the pump! I may try to do a redneck drip catcher with a rubbermaid tub and a crap load of tie wraps to keep the mess down. If I do I'll post photos. :)
If all goes sideways I'll just pull the pump and take to a rebuilder.
see ya
ken
If all goes sideways I'll just pull the pump and take to a rebuilder.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on March 20, 2013, 05:47:53 pm
Post by: kenhat on March 20, 2013, 05:47:53 pm
Oh yeah karma for everybody! Thanks again. ^.^d
see ya
ken
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on March 27, 2013, 07:21:45 pm
Post by: kenhat on March 27, 2013, 07:21:45 pm
Thought I'd follow up on my hydraulic pump.
Loaded up on hydraulic stop leak in Crystal River, FL. Drove a 125 miles to Crescent City, FL. When we pulled in the car was covered with hydraulic oil and oil was pooling on the rear bumper of the coach. :( Cleaned everything up and refilled my hydraulic reservoir. Next day drove to Stage Coach RV park in St. Augustine, FL and meet up with Kent Speers. Coach and car again covered in oil. Cleaned up the coach and car. Again!
Next day decided pump was coming off. Disconnected the radiator & power steering hoses from the pump and let drain into a 5 gal bucket. After much grunting and cussing (and Kent watching and providing encouragement and a giant crescent wrench) had the pump out and in my hand. Started calling around for a hydraulic shop to repair. First 2 places I called never heard of a John Barnes pump and didn't know when they could get it done. The third P & H Hydraulic Service out of Jacksonville, FL said yeah they could fix it. Ask when they could work on it and they said bring it in tomorrow. Asked how long they would need it and they said about an hour!
Drove up the next morning with Kent riding along keeping me company and arrived at the shop at 8:00am. Dropped the pump off and Kent and I went for breakfast. As we where leaving the diner my phone rang. It was the shop calling saying they where done. $65 for one hour labor and didn't charge for the seal. They also cleaned about a 1/2" of oil and dirt off the entire exterior of the pump. I am one happy guy. I haven't installed the pump yet but hoping the seal is all it needed. My radiator fan has a leak too so I'm thinking since I have the system drained I might as well pull it and take it in. We'll see how much energy I have tomorrow.
see ya
ken
Loaded up on hydraulic stop leak in Crystal River, FL. Drove a 125 miles to Crescent City, FL. When we pulled in the car was covered with hydraulic oil and oil was pooling on the rear bumper of the coach. :( Cleaned everything up and refilled my hydraulic reservoir. Next day drove to Stage Coach RV park in St. Augustine, FL and meet up with Kent Speers. Coach and car again covered in oil. Cleaned up the coach and car. Again!
Next day decided pump was coming off. Disconnected the radiator & power steering hoses from the pump and let drain into a 5 gal bucket. After much grunting and cussing (and Kent watching and providing encouragement and a giant crescent wrench) had the pump out and in my hand. Started calling around for a hydraulic shop to repair. First 2 places I called never heard of a John Barnes pump and didn't know when they could get it done. The third P & H Hydraulic Service out of Jacksonville, FL said yeah they could fix it. Ask when they could work on it and they said bring it in tomorrow. Asked how long they would need it and they said about an hour!
Drove up the next morning with Kent riding along keeping me company and arrived at the shop at 8:00am. Dropped the pump off and Kent and I went for breakfast. As we where leaving the diner my phone rang. It was the shop calling saying they where done. $65 for one hour labor and didn't charge for the seal. They also cleaned about a 1/2" of oil and dirt off the entire exterior of the pump. I am one happy guy. I haven't installed the pump yet but hoping the seal is all it needed. My radiator fan has a leak too so I'm thinking since I have the system drained I might as well pull it and take it in. We'll see how much energy I have tomorrow.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Bill Chaplin on March 27, 2013, 08:31:12 pm
Post by: Bill Chaplin on March 27, 2013, 08:31:12 pm
Energy (source )
Spend the evening listening to ( and capture hot air ) Kent.
Hot air= energy.
You will have plenty ( energy ) to do the job.
I really think you are a "doer" to have pulled and replace the Hyd pump
Spend the evening listening to ( and capture hot air ) Kent.
Hot air= energy.
You will have plenty ( energy ) to do the job.
I really think you are a "doer" to have pulled and replace the Hyd pump
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on March 27, 2013, 08:34:43 pm
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on March 27, 2013, 08:34:43 pm
Great job Ken, seems like the worst part of any repair is first contemplating how bad it will be and second getting in the grease and dirt to do it.
Gary B
Gary B
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 27, 2013, 09:25:33 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 27, 2013, 09:25:33 pm
Have to say I've got a smile on my face. Hope this does the job but will be surprised if it doesn't. Not in the mood to have egg on my face. Wonder how many people have paid a grand or more for a seal. Reminds me of a joke but not the kind to share on the forum.
Good for you,
Pierce
Good for you,
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Twig on March 28, 2013, 05:30:50 pm
Post by: Twig on March 28, 2013, 05:30:50 pm
Mine was a Barnes Haldex. When the seal was replaced, I put it back on and it leaked worse. Foretravel told me that particular pump was not worth doing the seal in but would sell me another seal if I wanted. I replaced the pump instead and now sleep better at night.
Tell Kent I said hello.
Tell Kent I said hello.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Kent Speers on March 28, 2013, 08:02:07 pm
Post by: Kent Speers on March 28, 2013, 08:02:07 pm
Mine was a Barnes Haldex. When the seal was replaced, I put it back on and it leaked worse. Foretravel told me that particular pump was not worth doing the seal in but would sell me another seal if I wanted. I replaced the pump instead and now sleep better at night.
Tell Kent I said hello.
Hey Twig, Howdy to you. Sorry we missed you if you were at Quatzsite this year. We have been forced to the east coast being on Gran Parent duty this winter. Anxious to get back out west though.
It sure has been fun watching someone else do all of the work. Ken is a go getter. I did offer copious amounts of assistance by handing him a wrench or two. The pump is back on now but he decided to have the fan motor overhauled too so we won't be starting the engine for a couple of days. It was my understanding that the Hydraulic Place tested the pump before giving it back to Ken so I am confident that it will work fine. These guys really appear to know what they are doing. Been in business doing hydraulic work for 40 plus years. I guess time will tell.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on March 28, 2013, 08:51:36 pm
Post by: kenhat on March 28, 2013, 08:51:36 pm
Kent the shop didn't "test" the pump just replaced the seal. So we won't know if any fixin' was done until we start it up. Hopefully we can do that tomorrow afternoon.
Thought I'd post some pics... It was a little dirty under the coach! That used to be my favorite Poison Spider shirt. :(
see ya
ken
Thought I'd post some pics... It was a little dirty under the coach! That used to be my favorite Poison Spider shirt. :(
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: tothetrail on March 29, 2013, 09:20:33 am
Post by: tothetrail on March 29, 2013, 09:20:33 am
Kent the shop didn't "test" the pump just replaced the seal. So we won't know if any fixin' was done until we start it up. Hopefully we can do that tomorrow afternoon.
Thought I'd post some pics... It was a little dirty under the coach! That used to be my favorite Poison Spider shirt. :(
see ya
ken
Anxiously awaiting the outcome of this one!
Hey Ken, is that Poison Spider in Moab? Either the trail or the bike shop? One of my favorite trails!
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Carol Savournin on March 29, 2013, 06:28:09 pm
Post by: Carol Savournin on March 29, 2013, 06:28:09 pm
Ken ... you look like a Tide commercial!
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on March 30, 2013, 09:30:34 am
Post by: kenhat on March 30, 2013, 09:30:34 am
Got everything back in yesterday. Just need to add oil, make one last check of all connections, make sure the pump pulley is aligned with the drive pulley, put the belt back on and fire it up! Kent suggested I use my old 6 rib belt instead of risking my expensive 8 rib belt when I start it up. I think I'll do that. If everything looks good I'll then trade out the belt for the 8 rib. So despite what most of you have said Kent can be helpful. :)
I opened up my hydraulic oil reservoirs and found that the power steering didn't have a filter? Anyone know if these are supposed to have one? The radiator reservoir had a huge one! (see picture). It looks like it's 3 separate filters but it's really 2. The bottom 2 are fastened together and I could not get them apart. Could not find a part number on any of them so took to NAPA to see if they could match up with any filters they had on hand. No luck there. Anybody know what the part number are? The smaller one is 5" tall and 4" around and the other is 10" x 4". I could just stack 3 of the 5" tall ones together instead of going with the 10" + 5". I've put the original ones back in and will probably trade out once I find a replacement.
Does anyone know if the pump needs to be primed? I plan on rotating the pump by hand after I have oil in. Is that enough?
In the heat if the moment I didn't get any pictures of the radiator fan assembly and it's too cramped in the engine compartment to get a shot so you will have to just use your imagination. :)
Attached a couple of more pictures. And yes I was equally dirty yesterday as I was the day before so just refer back to the earlier pictures.
see ya
ken
I opened up my hydraulic oil reservoirs and found that the power steering didn't have a filter? Anyone know if these are supposed to have one? The radiator reservoir had a huge one! (see picture). It looks like it's 3 separate filters but it's really 2. The bottom 2 are fastened together and I could not get them apart. Could not find a part number on any of them so took to NAPA to see if they could match up with any filters they had on hand. No luck there. Anybody know what the part number are? The smaller one is 5" tall and 4" around and the other is 10" x 4". I could just stack 3 of the 5" tall ones together instead of going with the 10" + 5". I've put the original ones back in and will probably trade out once I find a replacement.
Does anyone know if the pump needs to be primed? I plan on rotating the pump by hand after I have oil in. Is that enough?
In the heat if the moment I didn't get any pictures of the radiator fan assembly and it's too cramped in the engine compartment to get a shot so you will have to just use your imagination. :)
Attached a couple of more pictures. And yes I was equally dirty yesterday as I was the day before so just refer back to the earlier pictures.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Twig on March 30, 2013, 10:02:18 am
Post by: Twig on March 30, 2013, 10:02:18 am
There are 3, not 2. Nelson 84101B. I hope you used teflon based permatex on all of the pipe threads. Per Foretravel. I had no leaks, and just filled with oil and fired up.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on March 30, 2013, 10:02:53 am
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on March 30, 2013, 10:02:53 am
Ken, Look here, 3 filters.
Hydraulic Oil and Filter Change (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/hydraulic_oil_and_filter_change.html)
Gary B
Hydraulic Oil and Filter Change (http://beamalarm.com/Documents/hydraulic_oil_and_filter_change.html)
Gary B
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Kent Speers on March 30, 2013, 10:12:30 am
Post by: Kent Speers on March 30, 2013, 10:12:30 am
A bad shoulder does not mean one cannot use their mind to be of help.
What the photos of Ken don't show is that he had more grease on his face than on his pants. He cleaned up very nicely for cocktail hour. We told him about the greasy face about an hour later.
What the photos of Ken don't show is that he had more grease on his face than on his pants. He cleaned up very nicely for cocktail hour. We told him about the greasy face about an hour later.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on March 30, 2013, 11:20:02 am
Post by: kenhat on March 30, 2013, 11:20:02 am
@Kent Goop is your friend!
@twig Thanks for the tip. I didn't use any sealant. Turns out Kent was helpful a second time. In his vast collection of solvents and sealants he had a bottle of Permatex Thread Sealant with Teflon! I guess I get to crawl under the coach again... :(
see ya
ken
@twig Thanks for the tip. I didn't use any sealant. Turns out Kent was helpful a second time. In his vast collection of solvents and sealants he had a bottle of Permatex Thread Sealant with Teflon! I guess I get to crawl under the coach again... :(
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 30, 2013, 11:41:39 am
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on March 30, 2013, 11:41:39 am
Ken,
It's a positive displacement pump so it should prime itself.
Pierce
It's a positive displacement pump so it should prime itself.
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on March 30, 2013, 02:33:13 pm
Post by: kenhat on March 30, 2013, 02:33:13 pm
@Twig I hate to say but you were right. The seal did nothing to stop the leak and in fact may be worse...
I did turn the pump by hand and it started leaking just from that. I did manage to turn it enough to cause the radiator fan to spin. So was an easy prime as Pierce mentions probably not necessary. I did start the engine and let it idle for a minute or 2. Leaked the whole time. The good news is that the radiator fan motor isn't leaking. (yet!)
Twig your message implies you bought a new pump. Where did you buy from? Would like to price a new pump and decide to rebuild or buy new.
I'm really not looking forward to pulling the pump again. My back is killing me. May have to take a day off first.
see ya
ken
I did turn the pump by hand and it started leaking just from that. I did manage to turn it enough to cause the radiator fan to spin. So was an easy prime as Pierce mentions probably not necessary. I did start the engine and let it idle for a minute or 2. Leaked the whole time. The good news is that the radiator fan motor isn't leaking. (yet!)
Twig your message implies you bought a new pump. Where did you buy from? Would like to price a new pump and decide to rebuild or buy new.
I'm really not looking forward to pulling the pump again. My back is killing me. May have to take a day off first.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Twig on March 31, 2013, 09:37:11 am
Post by: Twig on March 31, 2013, 09:37:11 am
Wellllllllllllllll, I have good news and bad news. Which do you want first? K, first the good........I got the pump from Foretravel. Now the bad....according to Mike Grimes I got the last one. Not to say that maybe they didn't get more. The new one is a different manufacturer and I don't remember the name, but Grimes knows his stuff. Give him the model number of your old pump and see what he can do. As I recall the new pump was around $700 and an exact match.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 04, 2013, 02:53:10 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 04, 2013, 02:53:10 pm
Well I pulled the pump the other day and took back to P & H. They apologized profusely and said they needed about an hour to look at it. Went to breakfast at Waffle House and when I got back they had the pump apart and the front desk guy was carefully mike'ing the pump shaft to find the exact seal for it. Said they would have to order it and would have it the next day.
Picked the pump up today. The guy that brought the pump up from repair was a different guy than before and when I asked about why the seal had failed he mumbled something about the bearing was messed up. I don't think he knew any of the back story. The girl at the front desk handed it over and said no charge. At least that made me smile.
Got back to the coach, put on my filthy work clothes, put the pump back on again and refilled with Delo 400 15/40w again. Cranked pump by hand till the radiator fan started spinning then started the engine. Ran for about 10 minutes without a drop of oil showing up. Hopefully it's fixed for good. I'll take it out for a test drive tomorrow just to make sure.
I'm headed towards Memphis on Monday so will be watching it very closely. I'll post some follow ups on my way.
Don't really know what the issue was whether they nicked the seal when they installed or they spec'd the wrong size. Doesn't really matter much. They made it right. That makes me a happy guy.
see ya
ken
Picked the pump up today. The guy that brought the pump up from repair was a different guy than before and when I asked about why the seal had failed he mumbled something about the bearing was messed up. I don't think he knew any of the back story. The girl at the front desk handed it over and said no charge. At least that made me smile.
Got back to the coach, put on my filthy work clothes, put the pump back on again and refilled with Delo 400 15/40w again. Cranked pump by hand till the radiator fan started spinning then started the engine. Ran for about 10 minutes without a drop of oil showing up. Hopefully it's fixed for good. I'll take it out for a test drive tomorrow just to make sure.
I'm headed towards Memphis on Monday so will be watching it very closely. I'll post some follow ups on my way.
Don't really know what the issue was whether they nicked the seal when they installed or they spec'd the wrong size. Doesn't really matter much. They made it right. That makes me a happy guy.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 04, 2013, 03:49:05 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 04, 2013, 03:49:05 pm
Excellent Ken! Glad you had the time and persistance to get it done. How about sharing the seal manufacture and part number if you have it?
How did Tide do on the shirt? :) I can put on a fresh shirt and ruin it in 5 minutes.
Pierce
How did Tide do on the shirt? :) I can put on a fresh shirt and ruin it in 5 minutes.
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: coastprt on April 04, 2013, 06:48:12 pm
Post by: coastprt on April 04, 2013, 06:48:12 pm
Great news Ken!
I hope all of your efforts and back pain result in a job well done and no more hydraulic fan pump trouble. Saving big bucks and doing it yourself is a very satisfying experience and gives the rest of us do-it-yourselfers a big boost!
The bill for my pump/fans that were replaced/repaired by the prior owner back in 07 was almost $2000. :facepalm:
If your going up Hwy 49 through Gulfport via Hwy 90 on your way to Memphis honk those dual Hadleys and I will step outside of my shop and give you a big thumbs up for a job well done! b^.^d
Jerry
I hope all of your efforts and back pain result in a job well done and no more hydraulic fan pump trouble. Saving big bucks and doing it yourself is a very satisfying experience and gives the rest of us do-it-yourselfers a big boost!
The bill for my pump/fans that were replaced/repaired by the prior owner back in 07 was almost $2000. :facepalm:
If your going up Hwy 49 through Gulfport via Hwy 90 on your way to Memphis honk those dual Hadleys and I will step outside of my shop and give you a big thumbs up for a job well done! b^.^d
Jerry
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 08, 2013, 09:44:39 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 08, 2013, 09:44:39 pm
Did 250 miles today and no leaks! I'm a happy guy :)) :)) :))
see ya
ken
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Twig on April 08, 2013, 09:55:12 pm
Post by: Twig on April 08, 2013, 09:55:12 pm
sweet
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 09, 2013, 06:07:54 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 09, 2013, 06:07:54 pm
No longer a happy guy... >:D >:D >:D
Stayed at the Walmart in Marianna, FL last night. Got up this morning searched around for propane. Found some at McCoy's. They started filling it up and I ask how much are they charging. He says $4.99 a gallon. I said you're just messing with me right? He says no. I tell him to shut it off. Already had 12 gallons in so paid and left! I've been paying $3.50 or less most places.
We started heading north on Hwy 231 and pulled into a rest stop just south of Dothan, AL. Got out to do a walk around and the car is covered in oil! :( The damn pump is leaking again. Limped into Dothan and found an RV park.
Went to a hydraulic shop and they said they would have to see it before they could tell me if they could do a rebuild. Went to another shop and he said they don't even touch pumps anymore. They had so much trouble with them leaking after a rebuild. :(
Called Foretravel right at 4:00 and Billy Jack answered! Explained the situation and he said that they didn't start keeping parts records until 94'. If I could get him the part numbers off the pump he could probably match something up. My project for tonight is to find the pictures I took and see if I can get the numbers off it.
Wish me luck...
see ya
ken
Stayed at the Walmart in Marianna, FL last night. Got up this morning searched around for propane. Found some at McCoy's. They started filling it up and I ask how much are they charging. He says $4.99 a gallon. I said you're just messing with me right? He says no. I tell him to shut it off. Already had 12 gallons in so paid and left! I've been paying $3.50 or less most places.
We started heading north on Hwy 231 and pulled into a rest stop just south of Dothan, AL. Got out to do a walk around and the car is covered in oil! :( The damn pump is leaking again. Limped into Dothan and found an RV park.
Went to a hydraulic shop and they said they would have to see it before they could tell me if they could do a rebuild. Went to another shop and he said they don't even touch pumps anymore. They had so much trouble with them leaking after a rebuild. :(
Called Foretravel right at 4:00 and Billy Jack answered! Explained the situation and he said that they didn't start keeping parts records until 94'. If I could get him the part numbers off the pump he could probably match something up. My project for tonight is to find the pictures I took and see if I can get the numbers off it.
Wish me luck...
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 09, 2013, 07:07:55 pm
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 09, 2013, 07:07:55 pm
Ken, Florida has always been a rip off for Propane, it was 4.15 in January in Davenport.
Sorry to hear about your hydraulic pump. If you were coming thru the Atlanta area i would attempt to get you together with the hydraulic shop that I have used with success. If there is any way that I can help call me at 770-595-3891.
Gary B
Sorry to hear about your hydraulic pump. If you were coming thru the Atlanta area i would attempt to get you together with the hydraulic shop that I have used with success. If there is any way that I can help call me at 770-595-3891.
Gary B
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 09, 2013, 08:04:01 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 09, 2013, 08:04:01 pm
Gary thank you so much. You are very kind to offer. For now I have my hopes pinned on Billy Jack. Hoping he can come up with a replacement pump. At this point I don't care how much it cost! (Hope Billy Jack doesn't hear that!)
see ya
ken
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: coastprt on April 09, 2013, 08:37:07 pm
Post by: coastprt on April 09, 2013, 08:37:07 pm
Ken,
Sorry to hear of your leaking pump again. I saw in your post that you're are south of Dothan, Al. My pump was replaced in 2007 by Ray Thompson Auto Service, Inc. in Dothan (334-794-7272) businessfinder.al.com/935052/Thompson-Ray-Auto-Service-Dothan-AL I have a copy of the receipt from the PO but I can't tell the make or model number. My receipt number is 001771 dated 9/17/07. Hopefully they will have a record of the repair or the mechanic that replaced it is still there and will remember the pump that was replaced. I have the same setup as yours except there are two fans on my radiator. Hope this helps.
Good luck,
Jerry
Sorry to hear of your leaking pump again. I saw in your post that you're are south of Dothan, Al. My pump was replaced in 2007 by Ray Thompson Auto Service, Inc. in Dothan (334-794-7272) businessfinder.al.com/935052/Thompson-Ray-Auto-Service-Dothan-AL I have a copy of the receipt from the PO but I can't tell the make or model number. My receipt number is 001771 dated 9/17/07. Hopefully they will have a record of the repair or the mechanic that replaced it is still there and will remember the pump that was replaced. I have the same setup as yours except there are two fans on my radiator. Hope this helps.
Good luck,
Jerry
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 09, 2013, 08:48:45 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 09, 2013, 08:48:45 pm
@Jerry Thanks for the lead. I'll probably drive by there tomorrow and see if I can get any info.
I don't think your pump is the same based on seeing Kent's setup in his U300 twin radiator fan. Mine has 4 hoses and Kent's only had 2. His just drove the radiator. Mine drives the radiator fan and the power steering. Though I'm finding with Foretravel you never know what you'll find in what coach!
I've attached a couple pictures of my pump. First picture from below second is from above.
see ya
ken
I don't think your pump is the same based on seeing Kent's setup in his U300 twin radiator fan. Mine has 4 hoses and Kent's only had 2. His just drove the radiator. Mine drives the radiator fan and the power steering. Though I'm finding with Foretravel you never know what you'll find in what coach!
I've attached a couple pictures of my pump. First picture from below second is from above.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 09, 2013, 08:54:58 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 09, 2013, 08:54:58 pm
Meant to post a picture of the pump id tag. Not very clear but done one handed with an iPhone. :)
see ya
ken
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 09, 2013, 10:08:19 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 09, 2013, 10:08:19 pm
Ken,
Is that a 1800118?
Pierce
Is that a 1800118?
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 09, 2013, 10:18:32 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 09, 2013, 10:18:32 pm
Ken,
I see a W9A2 listed at MPPM in Rock Hill, SC for $811. Phone: 877.327.2116 Product code 10172228.
Schwing Pump-Hydraulic, Tandem J.S. Barnes W9A2-31 (http://www.mixerandplantparts.com/product-p/10172228.htm)
I noticed Grainger uses the 1800xxx number to identify their pumps.
Pierce
I see a W9A2 listed at MPPM in Rock Hill, SC for $811. Phone: 877.327.2116 Product code 10172228.
Schwing Pump-Hydraulic, Tandem J.S. Barnes W9A2-31 (http://www.mixerandplantparts.com/product-p/10172228.htm)
I noticed Grainger uses the 1800xxx number to identify their pumps.
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 09, 2013, 11:05:20 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 09, 2013, 11:05:20 pm
Quote
Is that a 1800118?
Yeah that's how I'm reading it.
Quote
I see a W9A2 listed at MPPM in Rock Hill, SC for $811. Phone: 877.327.2116 Product code 10172228.
Schwing Pump-Hydraulic, Tandem J.S. Barnes W9A2-31
Thanks for the link. I wish they had a picture or even a description!!!
If Billy Jack doesn't come up with anything I'll give em' a call. At least I know a price range. I guess I'm not allowed to complain if it's under one coach buck (1cb) :)
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 09, 2013, 11:35:39 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 09, 2013, 11:35:39 pm
@Pierce You got me started... I found this one on ebay.
Wacker Crusher Hydraulikpumpe Haldex Barnes W9A2 11 06R3F07N002 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wacker-Crusher-Hydraulikpumpe-Haldex-Barnes-W9A2-11-06R3F07N002-/180170739543?pt=Ersatzteile_Zubeh%C3%B6r_Landtechnik&hash=item29f3034f57)
It sorta looks like my pump.
see ya
ken
Wacker Crusher Hydraulikpumpe Haldex Barnes W9A2 11 06R3F07N002 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wacker-Crusher-Hydraulikpumpe-Haldex-Barnes-W9A2-11-06R3F07N002-/180170739543?pt=Ersatzteile_Zubeh%C3%B6r_Landtechnik&hash=item29f3034f57)
It sorta looks like my pump.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 10, 2013, 12:37:50 am
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 10, 2013, 12:37:50 am
Ken,
The problem is that there are so many specs involved, shaft size, rpm, gpm, rotation cw or ccw or both, etc. etc. Difficult when you don't know the specs for the pump/motor you have. I have heard that Foretravel does not stock the OEM hyd motor but uses an Italian brand now with metric threads, ports in a different place.
Here is a quote from another RV forum about a Foretravel that ran into pump/motor problems:
"I am now extremely familiar with the hydraulic fan system in our coach and have learned a lot.
#1- Foretravel no longer stocks a direct replacement hyd motor. Problems...the new motor has metric threads so the fittings from the old motor will not work. Doesn't mount the same.
#2- The new motor mounts entirely different than the original and requires (2) adapters that must be built at a machine shop and they are $$$$$$$. #3- Due to the new mounting arrangement the hoses are not appropriate and on it goes.
#4- Foretravel only provides 90 deg -10 fittings for the motor and straight fittings would work much better. Again due to the pump manuf in Italy and tapped for metric fittings.............straight fittings not readily available.
#5- After I got the adapters from the machine shop (which were in accordance with the Foretravel Engineering drawings) I got under and assembled everything only to find that the assembly was 2" too far from the radiator shroud so out it all came. I fabricated 2" spacers and put it all back together. Now the radiator clearance was o.k. but the fan blade would not clear the corners of one of the adapters. An hour with a die grinder to take care of the corners.
#6- If I had it to do again I would pitch the whole system and buy from a company that supports their products.
Gary"
I can't say how accurate this quote is but it would seem that as our coaches age, there may be a shortage of some critical parts that could leave us stranded for several days. It may be time to list each Foretravel by year, engine, pump I.D., etc so we can either find another Barnes product like yours or match specs with another brand so we have a quick reference in case of trouble.
Here is another link for several repair centers for Haldex-Barnes hydraulic products: Hydraulic Supply Company Retail and Repair Locations (http://www.hydraulic-supply.com/html/rrlocal.htm) Looks as if they were domestic but are owned by the Swedes now.
Good luck and keep everyone posted.
Pierce
The problem is that there are so many specs involved, shaft size, rpm, gpm, rotation cw or ccw or both, etc. etc. Difficult when you don't know the specs for the pump/motor you have. I have heard that Foretravel does not stock the OEM hyd motor but uses an Italian brand now with metric threads, ports in a different place.
Here is a quote from another RV forum about a Foretravel that ran into pump/motor problems:
"I am now extremely familiar with the hydraulic fan system in our coach and have learned a lot.
#1- Foretravel no longer stocks a direct replacement hyd motor. Problems...the new motor has metric threads so the fittings from the old motor will not work. Doesn't mount the same.
#2- The new motor mounts entirely different than the original and requires (2) adapters that must be built at a machine shop and they are $$$$$$$. #3- Due to the new mounting arrangement the hoses are not appropriate and on it goes.
#4- Foretravel only provides 90 deg -10 fittings for the motor and straight fittings would work much better. Again due to the pump manuf in Italy and tapped for metric fittings.............straight fittings not readily available.
#5- After I got the adapters from the machine shop (which were in accordance with the Foretravel Engineering drawings) I got under and assembled everything only to find that the assembly was 2" too far from the radiator shroud so out it all came. I fabricated 2" spacers and put it all back together. Now the radiator clearance was o.k. but the fan blade would not clear the corners of one of the adapters. An hour with a die grinder to take care of the corners.
#6- If I had it to do again I would pitch the whole system and buy from a company that supports their products.
Gary"
I can't say how accurate this quote is but it would seem that as our coaches age, there may be a shortage of some critical parts that could leave us stranded for several days. It may be time to list each Foretravel by year, engine, pump I.D., etc so we can either find another Barnes product like yours or match specs with another brand so we have a quick reference in case of trouble.
Here is another link for several repair centers for Haldex-Barnes hydraulic products: Hydraulic Supply Company Retail and Repair Locations (http://www.hydraulic-supply.com/html/rrlocal.htm) Looks as if they were domestic but are owned by the Swedes now.
Good luck and keep everyone posted.
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: coastprt on April 10, 2013, 01:09:06 am
Post by: coastprt on April 10, 2013, 01:09:06 am
Ken,
Here's a couple of hydraulic repair shops in Dothan that may be able to repair yours (again) or find a suitable replacement. Dothan Alabama Hydraulic | Dothan AL Hydraulic Yellow Pages Directory (http://www.powwwerpages.com/yellowpages/Hydraulic/Dothan%20AL/)
Jerry
Here's a couple of hydraulic repair shops in Dothan that may be able to repair yours (again) or find a suitable replacement. Dothan Alabama Hydraulic | Dothan AL Hydraulic Yellow Pages Directory (http://www.powwwerpages.com/yellowpages/Hydraulic/Dothan%20AL/)
Jerry
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 10, 2013, 08:18:25 am
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 10, 2013, 08:18:25 am
Ken, Later this AM I will be near a good hydraulic shop here in Conyers, I am going to show him the picture of your pump. If he can help I will give you a call.
Gary B
Gary B
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 10, 2013, 09:58:32 am
Post by: kenhat on April 10, 2013, 09:58:32 am
@Pierce Getting the specs right is my major concern. I'll interested to hear what Foretravel has to say. Obsolete parts is definitely one of the concerns of owning an older rig!
@Jerry I checked with the 2 shops in Dothan. Southern Service & B&B. Southern said I'd have to bring the pump in and they could tell me if they could rebuild it. B&B didn't even want to touch it. Gary Bouland just called me from his hydraulic guys shop. He says Granger should have a replacement. He put me on to Motion Industries here in Dothan.
@Gary Thanks for the call you lifted my sprits this morning! Tell Jane we say Hi! and the mutts. :)
I have to move about 3 miles to another campground this morning. There is a country western event this whole weekend and the park here is sold out. :(
Once I get settled in at the new park I'll pull the pump and head over to Motion Ind. and see what they say. If they can't do anything for me I'll check back with Southern Service. Also waiting to hear back from Billy Jack.
see ya
ken
@Jerry I checked with the 2 shops in Dothan. Southern Service & B&B. Southern said I'd have to bring the pump in and they could tell me if they could rebuild it. B&B didn't even want to touch it. Gary Bouland just called me from his hydraulic guys shop. He says Granger should have a replacement. He put me on to Motion Industries here in Dothan.
@Gary Thanks for the call you lifted my sprits this morning! Tell Jane we say Hi! and the mutts. :)
I have to move about 3 miles to another campground this morning. There is a country western event this whole weekend and the park here is sold out. :(
Once I get settled in at the new park I'll pull the pump and head over to Motion Ind. and see what they say. If they can't do anything for me I'll check back with Southern Service. Also waiting to hear back from Billy Jack.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Kent Speers on April 10, 2013, 10:26:26 am
Post by: Kent Speers on April 10, 2013, 10:26:26 am
I always like to make my friends feel better in a bad situation. Today is Propane day here at Stagecoach. $1.99 per gallon.
I told you not to leave.
I told you not to leave.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 10, 2013, 10:34:57 am
Post by: kenhat on April 10, 2013, 10:34:57 am
Ack! I didn't even think to check there. It's always more expensive at the campground!
Thanks for cheering me up Kent... :(
see ya
ken
Thanks for cheering me up Kent... :(
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 10, 2013, 01:04:58 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 10, 2013, 01:04:58 pm
Here is a site where you select the type of hydraulic pump/motor and then plug in the values (once you know them). It then shows the model number that meets your criteria.
Shop for hydraulic pumps at Zoro Tools Industrial Supplies (http://www.zorotools.com/s/?q=hydraulic+pumps&1.x=-1253&1.y=-50)
I see several match up to 1800xxx but none so far exactly to 1800118.
Pierce
Shop for hydraulic pumps at Zoro Tools Industrial Supplies (http://www.zorotools.com/s/?q=hydraulic+pumps&1.x=-1253&1.y=-50)
I see several match up to 1800xxx but none so far exactly to 1800118.
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Don Hay on April 10, 2013, 01:42:27 pm
Post by: Don Hay on April 10, 2013, 01:42:27 pm
I can't say how accurate this quote is but it would seem that as our coaches age, there may be a shortage of some critical parts that could leave us stranded for several days.
Pierce
Pierce, after reading your quote, I had to read it again to be sure that it hadn't come from me! I had almost the same experience just last November except for the last grinding for final clearance. The welding, replacing the 90 degree fittings with straight ones, etc. was what I had to do. So far it is working.
However, Ken's issue is with the hydraulic pump and not the hyd. fan motor, which is where the hassle came in.
Two years ago when my hydraulic pump began leaking, I checked with FOT and they wanted somewhere around $900-1,000 for the replacement. My local diesel mechanic checked with his pump supplier down in Houston and they found a new replacement for less than $500. It is still doing fine. (Knock on wood!) :) So it appears that solutions to this pump issue are truly regional. Frustrating.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: JohnFitz on April 10, 2013, 02:26:30 pm
Post by: JohnFitz on April 10, 2013, 02:26:30 pm
Ken,
If you can't find a near drop-in replacement, maybe the Speedi-sleeve solution that was brought up earlier in this post should be considered ?
If you can't find a near drop-in replacement, maybe the Speedi-sleeve solution that was brought up earlier in this post should be considered ?
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 10, 2013, 04:55:06 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 10, 2013, 04:55:06 pm
@Pierce Thanks for continuing to search. I've been hitting google pretty hard myself!
@Don Do you remember if your pump was a 4 hose pump or 2 hose. Do you have 1 large radiator fan or the 2 smallers ones?
@John The Speedi-sleeve is still on my list of options. I need to do some research on hydraulic pumps. The guy I talked to at B & B in Dothan was telling me that lots of things can go wrong internally like a hairline crack that's not visible, etc, etc. I not smart enough to know if he was BS'ing me or not.
I'm leaning towards a new pump if I can find one. This one lasted 21 years and I don't want to have to pull it again for at least that long! I haven't heard back from Billy Jack yet. I'm off to rattle his cage.
Again thanks for all the help. The collective mind is a great thing! I pretty sure I owe everybody on this thread an adult beverage or 2.
On to todays status. Moved over to another campground. A-Okay campground in Dothan. I drove by the place and it's was just a field with some pedestals in it. Lots of other trailers, 5er's & motorhomes that looked like they had been there a long time. Dori is pretty picky on campgrounds like that so was about to drive off when I see a guy leaning a shovel waving me back. I turned around and drove up to him. He just asked what'ca need. I explained my situation and he said he had room. I could tell right away he was a very laid back and wasn't put off at all that I'd be working on my coach there. Made the decision to take him up on the offer. $30 a night was less than I was paying at the other campground.
This morning we pull in and I talked to Larry the owner again and explained I would be there probably through the weekend. He says in that case I'll give you the weekly rate $85 and if you need to stay longer each additional day will be at the weekly rate. We pulled into our spot and got settled in. Turns out Larry's house was right behind us. He and his wife came over talked to Mrs D and I for 20 or 30 minutes. They are really nice people! Larry made all kinds of offers to help if he could and did come up with a giant crescent wrench for me to borrow. :)
Spent all day cleaning up and prep'ing for pulling the pump. There was a thin coat of oil on everything! I'll be pulling the pump out tomorrow morning and running it around everywhere I can looking for a replacement.
Kent Speer suggested I not overlook the easy stuff. Could be a leaky hydraulic hose or adaptor or anything. Sage advice even coming from Kent. :) Don't overlook the easy stuff. I'm still pretty sure it's the seal since I can see weeping by the shaft. More news to follow as it becomes available.
see ya
ken
@Don Do you remember if your pump was a 4 hose pump or 2 hose. Do you have 1 large radiator fan or the 2 smallers ones?
@John The Speedi-sleeve is still on my list of options. I need to do some research on hydraulic pumps. The guy I talked to at B & B in Dothan was telling me that lots of things can go wrong internally like a hairline crack that's not visible, etc, etc. I not smart enough to know if he was BS'ing me or not.
I'm leaning towards a new pump if I can find one. This one lasted 21 years and I don't want to have to pull it again for at least that long! I haven't heard back from Billy Jack yet. I'm off to rattle his cage.
Again thanks for all the help. The collective mind is a great thing! I pretty sure I owe everybody on this thread an adult beverage or 2.
On to todays status. Moved over to another campground. A-Okay campground in Dothan. I drove by the place and it's was just a field with some pedestals in it. Lots of other trailers, 5er's & motorhomes that looked like they had been there a long time. Dori is pretty picky on campgrounds like that so was about to drive off when I see a guy leaning a shovel waving me back. I turned around and drove up to him. He just asked what'ca need. I explained my situation and he said he had room. I could tell right away he was a very laid back and wasn't put off at all that I'd be working on my coach there. Made the decision to take him up on the offer. $30 a night was less than I was paying at the other campground.
This morning we pull in and I talked to Larry the owner again and explained I would be there probably through the weekend. He says in that case I'll give you the weekly rate $85 and if you need to stay longer each additional day will be at the weekly rate. We pulled into our spot and got settled in. Turns out Larry's house was right behind us. He and his wife came over talked to Mrs D and I for 20 or 30 minutes. They are really nice people! Larry made all kinds of offers to help if he could and did come up with a giant crescent wrench for me to borrow. :)
Spent all day cleaning up and prep'ing for pulling the pump. There was a thin coat of oil on everything! I'll be pulling the pump out tomorrow morning and running it around everywhere I can looking for a replacement.
Kent Speer suggested I not overlook the easy stuff. Could be a leaky hydraulic hose or adaptor or anything. Sage advice even coming from Kent. :) Don't overlook the easy stuff. I'm still pretty sure it's the seal since I can see weeping by the shaft. More news to follow as it becomes available.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: gam on April 10, 2013, 06:31:11 pm
Post by: gam on April 10, 2013, 06:31:11 pm
The shaft seal for a hyd pump is located in the suction section of the pump housing. The fluid pressure on the seal should be higher when the pump is off then when it is running. Most of the lip type oil seals will only hold 3-4 psi of pressure when good.There are a lot of different reasons why a seal will leak. Bad bearings,poor finish on the shaft, material adhered to the shaft in the area of the seal,bad seal {will tend to leak when pump is down -will suck air with pump running],wear- damage inside of pump ,high backpressure on hyd system.Had one pump that leaked fluid when the filters where plugged up.When is the seal now leaking?A good hyd pump shop should be able to inspect and rebuild repair most anything.It's comes down to what costs more a complete overhaul or a new pump.Gam
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Don Hay on April 10, 2013, 07:24:59 pm
Post by: Don Hay on April 10, 2013, 07:24:59 pm
Ken,
I just checked my hyd. pump: it's a 2 hose pump, which, as I look at your pics again is different: Yours being a 4 hose pump is a "ho(r)se of a different color". :) Wish you luck in finding a reasonable ($) replacement.
I just checked my hyd. pump: it's a 2 hose pump, which, as I look at your pics again is different: Yours being a 4 hose pump is a "ho(r)se of a different color". :) Wish you luck in finding a reasonable ($) replacement.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Don Hay on April 10, 2013, 07:55:04 pm
Post by: Don Hay on April 10, 2013, 07:55:04 pm
Ken,
I forgot to add that my coach has one large radiator fan, not two.
Don
I forgot to add that my coach has one large radiator fan, not two.
Don
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 10, 2013, 08:57:59 pm
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 10, 2013, 08:57:59 pm
Ken, While discussing your hydraulic pump in a shop today it was suggested that if you could you should take the bracket with the pump to find a new one, that way if the mounting holes or positions of the inlets/outlets are different you would have a chance to modify the bracket to fit.
Good Luck
Gary B
Good Luck
Gary B
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 11, 2013, 08:10:55 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 11, 2013, 08:10:55 pm
Got an email back from Billy Jack. He says they have a replacement pump.
I pulled the pump this morning. The seal had blown.
It appears to me that there was too much pressure behind the seal. It looks blown out. After seeing gam's remarks that there should only 3-4 psi behind the seal it lead me to question what's going on.
I pulled the pump out today and took it to Southern Service. Got to talk to the main guy there and he just flatly said he guaranteed the pump is "wore out". Said the gears and shafts are steel and housing is aluminum, guess which one wins. :) He said that it creates extra internal pressure that blows the seal out. He says he's rebuild them plenty of times and won't brother again. Go back to the motorhome manufacture and get a replacement. Told him that would be $900. He showed me several pumps that weren't much bigger than mine that were several thousand dollars. :(
So I'm going with the Foretravel pump. Have a couple of questions into Billy Jack. Sent him pictures for mine along with shaft size, pump mounting diameter, and distance between mounting bolts. I'm hoping it truly is bolt on.
see ya
ken
Quote
We have the pump that replaces the one you have. It is a Saur Danfaus. Mike says it will bolt up. Bigger pump. Price is $889.50. Part# 80002642
I pulled the pump this morning. The seal had blown.
It appears to me that there was too much pressure behind the seal. It looks blown out. After seeing gam's remarks that there should only 3-4 psi behind the seal it lead me to question what's going on. I pulled the pump out today and took it to Southern Service. Got to talk to the main guy there and he just flatly said he guaranteed the pump is "wore out". Said the gears and shafts are steel and housing is aluminum, guess which one wins. :) He said that it creates extra internal pressure that blows the seal out. He says he's rebuild them plenty of times and won't brother again. Go back to the motorhome manufacture and get a replacement. Told him that would be $900. He showed me several pumps that weren't much bigger than mine that were several thousand dollars. :(
So I'm going with the Foretravel pump. Have a couple of questions into Billy Jack. Sent him pictures for mine along with shaft size, pump mounting diameter, and distance between mounting bolts. I'm hoping it truly is bolt on.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: ohsonew on April 11, 2013, 08:26:35 pm
Post by: ohsonew on April 11, 2013, 08:26:35 pm
Hate to see that it can't be rebuilt. But with a new one, you may not ever have to undergo the ordeal that you have been put through with this. Someday you may look back and laugh at the whole thing (not likely).
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Twig on April 12, 2013, 10:37:57 am
Post by: Twig on April 12, 2013, 10:37:57 am
The one I got from Foretravel is probably the same one you got. It was a direct bolt on and the hose connections only go on one way. I used the old shaft key because the new one was slightly too big for the pulley. In addition, be specific about how far onto the spline the pulley goes because mine was a smidgen too short which is causing a slight rubbing of the belt on the pulley side closest to the pump. Not a big deal but when I get home I will shim the pump to specs. Other than that, you will do ok and sleep a lot better at night. Teflon permatex!
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 12, 2013, 11:20:21 am
Post by: kenhat on April 12, 2013, 11:20:21 am
@Twig was your pump a 4 hose pump or 2 hose? So far I'm the only coach I know of that uses the 4 hose. I'm sure there are others out there but it does look like there was a limited run with this design.
Added a picture of my pump.
see ya
ken
Added a picture of my pump.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 12, 2013, 12:24:51 pm
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 12, 2013, 12:24:51 pm
Ken, The pump on my 95 U280 is a FOUR HOSE, otherwise known as dual stage or two stage.
Gary B
Gary B
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: rbark on April 12, 2013, 12:54:38 pm
Post by: rbark on April 12, 2013, 12:54:38 pm
Ken, is it just me , or is that seal installed backwards?
If the pressure is on the pump side, shouldn't the lip on the seal be towards the pressure?
Richard B.
If the pressure is on the pump side, shouldn't the lip on the seal be towards the pressure?
Richard B.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Twig on April 12, 2013, 12:58:59 pm
Post by: Twig on April 12, 2013, 12:58:59 pm
4 hose.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 12, 2013, 01:00:41 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 12, 2013, 01:00:41 pm
Ken,
Here are a couple of shots of the hydraulic pump on our 1993 U300/36. It is a single stage, about half the size of yours and powers 2 fans + PS. I can't believe a pump like this would not run your single fan just fine. No reason for the complex design of the two stage. The second photo shows the hose connections in a true vertical/horizontal orientation.
If you can't read the numbers, the Barnes pump is a W9A116R3V01N.
In looking at your seal, it does appear it may have been installed backwards. Usually, the metal or rubber shoulder is on the outside so it can be tapped or pressed into place. I may be missing something in viewing the photo.
Fortunately, our pump and motors are dry. You owe me for a dirty shirt now. ;D
Pierce
Here are a couple of shots of the hydraulic pump on our 1993 U300/36. It is a single stage, about half the size of yours and powers 2 fans + PS. I can't believe a pump like this would not run your single fan just fine. No reason for the complex design of the two stage. The second photo shows the hose connections in a true vertical/horizontal orientation.
If you can't read the numbers, the Barnes pump is a W9A116R3V01N.
In looking at your seal, it does appear it may have been installed backwards. Usually, the metal or rubber shoulder is on the outside so it can be tapped or pressed into place. I may be missing something in viewing the photo.
Fortunately, our pump and motors are dry. You owe me for a dirty shirt now. ;D
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: gam on April 12, 2013, 01:12:00 pm
Post by: gam on April 12, 2013, 01:12:00 pm
Go on line -how to install oil seals in lip direction- good explanation on how to install seal. Also try and get a new seal by Chicago Rawhide .There are a lot of cheap seal from overseas that don't have the quality control of a Chicago Rawhide. Gam
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 12, 2013, 01:21:44 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 12, 2013, 01:21:44 pm
@Twig & @Gary Thanks for the info. Hope your pumps are holding up. :)
@rbark I'm not smart enough to know if it's in backwards or not. I plan to take the pump apart just to see how it works. I won't do that until after the new pump is in and working just in case.
@Pierce I thought about switching to a single stage. If Foretravel hadn't come up with a pump I would have maybe gone down that road. I pretty sure the PO disabled the 2 stage anyway. Mine only runs at high speed.
Pump should be here Tuesday if FT parts can get it out today. Fingers crossed!
see ya
ken
@rbark I'm not smart enough to know if it's in backwards or not. I plan to take the pump apart just to see how it works. I won't do that until after the new pump is in and working just in case.
@Pierce I thought about switching to a single stage. If Foretravel hadn't come up with a pump I would have maybe gone down that road. I pretty sure the PO disabled the 2 stage anyway. Mine only runs at high speed.
Pump should be here Tuesday if FT parts can get it out today. Fingers crossed!
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 12, 2013, 02:18:18 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 12, 2013, 02:18:18 pm
If someone had time and the inclination, a couple of 1 1/2" tubes could be fed to the front end and a couple of custom radiators fitted behind the two removable panels down low on the nose (or up high behind the grills). The whole hydraulic system could then be removed and electric fans fitted front and back. The aluminum radiators are very inexpensive (see ebay) and come in a variety of sizes. The total cost would be less than just one hydraulic pump or motor. Lots of space going to waste up front.
The power steering could be powered by a conventional PS pump from the back or with an electric pump forward.
No, electric fans don't have the CFM capability to be able to replace the hydraulic motors without additional cooling capacity somewhere else.
A couple of members have already mounted radiators in the nose and used the heater hoses to feed them. Don't think the heater hoses would move enough hot coolant to allow removal of the rear hydraulic motors.
Pierce
The power steering could be powered by a conventional PS pump from the back or with an electric pump forward.
No, electric fans don't have the CFM capability to be able to replace the hydraulic motors without additional cooling capacity somewhere else.
A couple of members have already mounted radiators in the nose and used the heater hoses to feed them. Don't think the heater hoses would move enough hot coolant to allow removal of the rear hydraulic motors.
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: gam on April 12, 2013, 03:40:26 pm
Post by: gam on April 12, 2013, 03:40:26 pm
Didn't see picture .Seal was install backward, and did have a blowout.Shop can be correct about pump housings wear,and that's why I was talking about a complete inspection of the pump.When the pump was out why not do a This Old House and go from the ground up. To take the pump apart will only take a few minutes.High wear,groves, and to much clearance between the faces of the rotating member and housing in the area or the oil seal will cause leaks.But a hyd shop that installed a seal of this type backward and then didn't get down on there hands and knees to ask for forgiveness.Well maybe they thought they could sell you a new pump.Gam
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Twig on April 12, 2013, 08:18:18 pm
Post by: Twig on April 12, 2013, 08:18:18 pm
I will reiterate why I made my decision to replace the pump (same pump as ken's). Mike Grimes @ Foretravel: " That model pump is not worth rebuilding. We have seals here and I will sell you one but you will probably have to replace it again in 6 months. Or you can buy the new pump which fits exactly."
Nuff said for me. Down the road I go.
Nuff said for me. Down the road I go.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Rick on April 13, 2013, 10:06:03 am
Post by: Rick on April 13, 2013, 10:06:03 am
@Twig & @Gary Thanks for the info. Hope your pumps are holding up. :)
@rbark I'm not smart enough to know if it's in backwards or not. I plan to take the pump apart just to see how it works. I won't do that until after the new pump is in and working just in case.
@Pierce I thought about switching to a single stage. If Foretravel hadn't come up with a pump I would have maybe gone down that road. I pretty sure the PO disabled the 2 stage anyway. Mine only runs at high speed.
Pump should be here Tuesday if FT parts can get it out today. Fingers crossed!
see ya
ken
Much of the hydraulic pump terminology can be confusing. A pump that has 2 independent pump housings and independent hydraulic input and outputs is generally referred to as a tandem pump. A tandem pump is 2 pumps mechanically coupled but hydraulically separate pump housings driven by 1 external shaft. There are triple and quad configurations also. I believe yours is a tandem pump with independent hydraulic inputs and outputs (2 individual input and 2 individual outputs). The seperate pump sections generally provide different flow rates and pressures.
A 2 stage pump is a pump with 2 interacting pumps (gear sets) with one hydraulic input and one hydraulic output port. The gear sets can be in separate pump sections (tandem) or 1 pump section with 2 different internal gear sets. The two stage pump has one hydraulic input and output port and is designed to provide different flow rates and pressures (at the one output port) in each stage depending on system demand.
Good luck,
Rick
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 13, 2013, 11:12:16 am
Post by: kenhat on April 13, 2013, 11:12:16 am
@Rick Thanks for clearing up the terminology. It always helps to use the right words. Especially helps when you are doing google or ebay searches.
thanks
ken
thanks
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 13, 2013, 11:29:23 am
Post by: kenhat on April 13, 2013, 11:29:23 am
I pulled the snapring today for a better look at the seal. To me it looks like the seal was installed the correct direction. The picture I posted previously may have not revealed enough of the seal to see that. The blow out was so violent that a large portion of the seal turned itself inside out!
Here are some more pics I took today. Let me know what you think.
see ya
ken
Here are some more pics I took today. Let me know what you think.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: gam on April 13, 2013, 12:29:32 pm
Post by: gam on April 13, 2013, 12:29:32 pm
What is the part number on the seal? Gam
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 13, 2013, 12:52:00 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 13, 2013, 12:52:00 pm
Good photos. Can now see part of the seal id numbers. That would indicate that the seal was installed in the correct direction. Have never seen a seal lip fold over like that. Seems if installed incorrectly, it would have leaked immediately and not down the road a few hundred miles. Not an expert but perhaps hydraulic shops have seen this before and maybe an overpressure forced it out like that. Hard to take a chance on it happening again with the same pump.
Piece
Piece
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: rbark on April 13, 2013, 01:18:01 pm
Post by: rbark on April 13, 2013, 01:18:01 pm
Ken, it does look like the seal was installed the right way. Why the seal blew is a mystery,
other than over pressure, but that should not have happened. Is there a groove on the shaft where the lip of the seal rode? If so, that could be the cause of the seal blowing out.
Good luck, Richard B.
other than over pressure, but that should not have happened. Is there a groove on the shaft where the lip of the seal rode? If so, that could be the cause of the seal blowing out.
Good luck, Richard B.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: gam on April 13, 2013, 01:22:49 pm
Post by: gam on April 13, 2013, 01:22:49 pm
Yes good pictures and it dose look that seal was installed correctly. It looks to me like you have one of two problems. The first is that small hose on the back side of the pump. That is your casing drain line . That line connects to a drilled passage that goes from one end to the other inside the pump casing. It's job is to prevent a pressure build up in the ends of the pump casing in the area of the shaft seal and bearings. If this hose is plugged or the flow through it is blocked where it returns into the system the shaft seal will leak,yes and even blow out because the seal could see full system pressure.Your hose should return to the top of the hyd filter housing on it's suction side.The other reason for the seal to leak and blow out is if there is so much internal wear in the pump casing that the casing drain line can't handle the flow of oil so a back pressure is created.Gama
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 13, 2013, 06:40:54 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 13, 2013, 06:40:54 pm
@gam My pump doesn't have a case drain. It's a tandem pump with 2 input hoses on the bottom and 2 output hoses on the top. My radiator motor (someone help me if that terminology is wrong) has a drain hose so I know what you are talking about. I tried to get the part number off the seal for you but I can't get an angle where I can read it with a magnifying glass. After I have the new pump in I'll pull the old pump apart and post the number.
I'm been rethinking all my actions and there is probably 50-50 chance I am my own daemon. I remember putting the pump on for the second time and after I had the hoses on checked the tags on the top hoses. I had labeled them TF (top front) and TR (top rear) after checking them I switched the 2 top hoses. Now the problem is I don't remember if I was thinking TF was top front of pump or front of coach. So I may have put the front on the back and the back on the front. I've looked at all my photographs before removal and don't have one that I can use to identify for sure which goes where. If I did indeed switch them to the wrong location that could have lead to a high pressure situation the blew out the seal.
So Twig & Gary I need your help. I've attached a picture showing the hose routing before I pulled the pump this last time. Can you look at it and see if your hydraulic hose lay out is the same? If so is the top hose closest to the rear of the coach (labeled A1 - A2 in photo) set up correctly or does the rear hose (labeled B in photo) the one that goes there? I'm afraid to hook up the new pump until I know for sure I have the proper routing for the hoses. Don't want to blow the seal on the new pump! I've sent the photo to Billy Jack and he forwarded it to Mark Harvey but I haven't heard anything from him yet.
see ya
ken
I'm been rethinking all my actions and there is probably 50-50 chance I am my own daemon. I remember putting the pump on for the second time and after I had the hoses on checked the tags on the top hoses. I had labeled them TF (top front) and TR (top rear) after checking them I switched the 2 top hoses. Now the problem is I don't remember if I was thinking TF was top front of pump or front of coach. So I may have put the front on the back and the back on the front. I've looked at all my photographs before removal and don't have one that I can use to identify for sure which goes where. If I did indeed switch them to the wrong location that could have lead to a high pressure situation the blew out the seal.
So Twig & Gary I need your help. I've attached a picture showing the hose routing before I pulled the pump this last time. Can you look at it and see if your hydraulic hose lay out is the same? If so is the top hose closest to the rear of the coach (labeled A1 - A2 in photo) set up correctly or does the rear hose (labeled B in photo) the one that goes there? I'm afraid to hook up the new pump until I know for sure I have the proper routing for the hoses. Don't want to blow the seal on the new pump! I've sent the photo to Billy Jack and he forwarded it to Mark Harvey but I haven't heard anything from him yet.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: gam on April 13, 2013, 08:04:01 pm
Post by: gam on April 13, 2013, 08:04:01 pm
Ken didn't you post pictures of the pump your working on ,on March 28 .That looked to be a single stage vane pump with a casing drain?? To mark things like two hoses off a pump I like to use two electrical ties. put one on one of the hoses and one on it's mating fitting.Gam
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 13, 2013, 08:57:02 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 13, 2013, 08:57:02 pm
@gam You're right I did post a picture of the radiator hydraulic motor which does have a case drain a while back. I did have the seal replaced in that one and luckily it has held. The pump that powers it is what I'm working on now and is what is featured in almost all of the pictures posted. :)
see ya
ken
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: gam on April 13, 2013, 09:04:08 pm
Post by: gam on April 13, 2013, 09:04:08 pm
That's what happens when I don't take the time to read all the postings. After the first pictures I only saw ones of the end of the shaft and seal .I'm Bad. Joe
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 13, 2013, 09:09:34 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 13, 2013, 09:09:34 pm
@gam No problem. All help appreciated!
see ya
ken
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 14, 2013, 11:28:44 am
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 14, 2013, 11:28:44 am
@gam My pump doesn't have a case drain. It's a tandem pump with 2 input hoses on the bottom and 2 output hoses on the top. My radiator motor (someone help me if that terminology is wrong) has a drain hose so I know what you are talking about. I tried to get the part number off the seal for you but I can't get an angle where I can read it with a magnifying glass. After I have the new pump in I'll pull the old pump apart and post the number.
I'm been rethinking all my actions and there is probably 50-50 chance I am my own daemon. I remember putting the pump on for the second time and after I had the hoses on checked the tags on the top hoses. I had labeled them TF (top front) and TR (top rear) after checking them I switched the 2 top hoses. Now the problem is I don't remember if I was thinking TF was top front of pump or front of coach. So I may have put the front on the back and the back on the front. I've looked at all my photographs before removal and don't have one that I can use to identify for sure which goes where. If I did indeed switch them to the wrong location that could have lead to a high pressure situation the blew out the seal.
So Twig & Gary I need your help. I've attached a picture showing the hose routing before I pulled the pump this last time. Can you look at it and see if your hydraulic hose lay out is the same? If so is the top hose closest to the rear of the coach (labeled A1 - A2 in photo) set up correctly or does the rear hose (labeled B in photo) the one that goes there? I'm afraid to hook up the new pump until I know for sure I have the proper routing for the hoses. Don't want to blow the seal on the new pump! I've sent the photo to Billy Jack and he forwarded it to Mark Harvey but I haven't heard anything from him yet.
see ya
ken
Gary B
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Twig on April 14, 2013, 11:56:26 am
Post by: Twig on April 14, 2013, 11:56:26 am
My config may be different than yours as I have a Cummins. The 2 top hoses T off the bottom of the oil sump. With my pump, the connector sizes were different enough that I could not hook it up wrong.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 14, 2013, 12:42:28 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 14, 2013, 12:42:28 pm
@Twig Thanks. Didn't think about you having the Cummins. Now that I think about it Gary has the Cummins to. Unfortunately the hoses out of the top of the pump are both 1". Wish I'd marked them a little more intelligently. :(
see ya
ken
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 14, 2013, 12:58:49 pm
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 14, 2013, 12:58:49 pm
Ken, Your right mine is a Cummins. Here are pics of the pump looking up from the ground. Note pulley and belt to right of photo and rear of coach. Large hoses go from TOP of pump to a tee and then to control solenoid on street side frame rail.
Smaller hoses are blue and come from BOTTOM of pump and after going to tee and solenoid they go to right side and the two fans on the radiator.
Hope this helps.
Gary B
Smaller hoses are blue and come from BOTTOM of pump and after going to tee and solenoid they go to right side and the two fans on the radiator.
Hope this helps.
Gary B
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 17, 2013, 09:36:16 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 17, 2013, 09:36:16 pm
New pump came in today. Took a couple of hours to get it in. Yes I did get a little dirty again!
I was a little worried I had reversed the connections on the output side of the pump previously. Turns out my suspicions where correct. I put on my CSI hat and started looking at the photos I took at the start of this thread. None of the photos gave a clear shot of the routing of the hoses but I did have one very clear shot of the top of the pump. I loaded it into Photoshop and zoomed in on the hoses and was able to identify one of the hoses by some markings on the connector. If it wasn't for those I'd still be worrying about what to connect where! I'm not sure if that caused the seal to blow again or not. Mark Harvey sent me a hydraulic pump schematic for a 94'. Looking at it I don't think reversing the hoses caused the seal to blow. I'd appreciate comments from others with more experience with hydraulics.
Here are some photos of the new pump and the install. Twig notice I did use the Permatex thread seal with PFTE. :) The last picture is of my new favorite tools. Gorilla Grip from Home Depot $4.99. I've used mechanic gloves but they always were too padded to feel anything. These are cheap have great feel and are very durable. I've had the Shop Towels forever but always reached for a rag. Ran out of rags pretty quick on this project and these saved my butt! Didn't include in the picture but Goop hand cleaner rates way up there too! It works so well I'm pretty sure EPA will be banning it real soon! Oh yeah I got to use my new really big wrenches from Harbor Freight. $49.99 on sale!
The radiator fan is spinning and the pump is not leaking. The oil has been cleaned off the back of the rig and the toad. We are ready to hit the road tomorrow. Wish us luck! I need some. :)
see ya
ken
I was a little worried I had reversed the connections on the output side of the pump previously. Turns out my suspicions where correct. I put on my CSI hat and started looking at the photos I took at the start of this thread. None of the photos gave a clear shot of the routing of the hoses but I did have one very clear shot of the top of the pump. I loaded it into Photoshop and zoomed in on the hoses and was able to identify one of the hoses by some markings on the connector. If it wasn't for those I'd still be worrying about what to connect where! I'm not sure if that caused the seal to blow again or not. Mark Harvey sent me a hydraulic pump schematic for a 94'. Looking at it I don't think reversing the hoses caused the seal to blow. I'd appreciate comments from others with more experience with hydraulics.
Here are some photos of the new pump and the install. Twig notice I did use the Permatex thread seal with PFTE. :) The last picture is of my new favorite tools. Gorilla Grip from Home Depot $4.99. I've used mechanic gloves but they always were too padded to feel anything. These are cheap have great feel and are very durable. I've had the Shop Towels forever but always reached for a rag. Ran out of rags pretty quick on this project and these saved my butt! Didn't include in the picture but Goop hand cleaner rates way up there too! It works so well I'm pretty sure EPA will be banning it real soon! Oh yeah I got to use my new really big wrenches from Harbor Freight. $49.99 on sale!
The radiator fan is spinning and the pump is not leaking. The oil has been cleaned off the back of the rig and the toad. We are ready to hit the road tomorrow. Wish us luck! I need some. :)
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Brad on April 17, 2013, 09:50:34 pm
Post by: Brad on April 17, 2013, 09:50:34 pm
Ken,
Here is wishing you the best of luck. :) I'm sure this is the last of the leaks.
Great job....
Let us know if you head toward Fredericksburg.
Here is wishing you the best of luck. :) I'm sure this is the last of the leaks.
Great job....
Let us know if you head toward Fredericksburg.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 17, 2013, 10:01:37 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 17, 2013, 10:01:37 pm
Good news! Sure it will do the trick plus U have some good wrenches now.
Another good thing to pick up is a Brother (or other brand) label machine. When I'm pulling hoses or electrical where the codes are not readable, I make a label for each hose and wrap it around. Especially good for battery cables where you have lots of connections.
Pierce
Another good thing to pick up is a Brother (or other brand) label machine. When I'm pulling hoses or electrical where the codes are not readable, I make a label for each hose and wrap it around. Especially good for battery cables where you have lots of connections.
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 17, 2013, 10:04:00 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 17, 2013, 10:04:00 pm
@Brad Dori and I really want to do Fredricksburg and meet up with you again what did we have in Nac 15 minutes? :) Unfortunately it's going to be a couple of years before we get there. Heading to Memphis, then KC, then Denver, then slowly to Seattle. Summer doesn't start until July 4 there! Winter on west coast then back to Seattle to do Alaska! That's our dream trip. Hope Big Agnes is up for it. :)
see ya
ken
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 17, 2013, 10:10:27 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 17, 2013, 10:10:27 pm
Ken,
Let us know when you are on the west coast and in our area.
Pierce
Let us know when you are on the west coast and in our area.
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 17, 2013, 10:51:50 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 17, 2013, 10:51:50 pm
@Pierce no problem. We would love to meet up with you. We were so close in Moab last fall!
see ya
ken
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 18, 2013, 08:07:30 am
Post by: Gary Bouland (RIP) on April 18, 2013, 08:07:30 am
Ken, Glad you are back on the road. We will be in CO in August for a family reunion in Joes and then on to Denver area. If you are still around we will try to meet up.
Gary B
Gary B
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Rick on April 18, 2013, 09:39:54 am
Post by: Rick on April 18, 2013, 09:39:54 am
New pump came in today. .......Took a couple of hours to get it in. ......Wish us luck! I need some. :)
see ya
ken
It's always easier the second time around. It would be good to get all the specs on that pump for future reference. I see the part number but that may be a Foretravel specific P/N and pump made for them. See page 23 to see the ordering details and what it entails.
http://www.turollaocg.com/stellent/groups/publications/documents/product_literature/l1022940.pdf (http://www.turollaocg.com/stellent/groups/publications/documents/product_literature/l1022940.pdf)
Karma for the pictures.
Good luck,
Rick
P.S. No need for thread sealant on those SAE O-ring Boss (ORB) fittings, they seal with the o-ring and locknut. Thread sealant/lube only req'd on tapered pipe threads.
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: coastprt on April 18, 2013, 11:40:54 am
Post by: coastprt on April 18, 2013, 11:40:54 am
Ken,
Good news to hear that your new pump is in and working and so far so good! How about a pic of the installed new pump to go with other ones to complete the set. All of us have learned a lot from your experience with old pumps and leaking seals. Makes one appreciate good mechanic work.
At least you saved big bucks on the labor by doing it yourself!
I hope you're rolling down the highway as a happy camper again!
Jerry
Good news to hear that your new pump is in and working and so far so good! How about a pic of the installed new pump to go with other ones to complete the set. All of us have learned a lot from your experience with old pumps and leaking seals. Makes one appreciate good mechanic work.
At least you saved big bucks on the labor by doing it yourself!
I hope you're rolling down the highway as a happy camper again!
Jerry
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: MAZ on April 18, 2013, 09:00:46 pm
Post by: MAZ on April 18, 2013, 09:00:46 pm
Good news Ken and Dori, I have been watching your posts and praying for your success. Looks like they were answered. It was great meeting you two. Have a blessed trip and God willing we will see you down the road someday.
All the best, Mark and Tanya
All the best, Mark and Tanya
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 20, 2013, 02:25:09 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 20, 2013, 02:25:09 pm
We made it to Memphis yesterday but not without incident. Got about a 1/4 mile from the campground and threw the hydraulic pump belt. Found a very unsafe place to pull over. :( No choice really the engine was hot and getting hotter. Luckily a guy in a pickup pull up behind us offering help and directed traffic around us while I worked on the coach. Decided the pulley's needed to be aligned better. Loosened the bolts on the hydraulic pump shaft pulley and used some percussion adjustment to move it onto the shaft a little further. Popped a new belt on and got running again.
Pulled into Flying J a few miles down the road for fuel and checked the belt. Looked good. On down the road we went. About 80 miles down I started noticing the engine temps were creeping up. Found an exit and pulled into a Texaco truck stop. Go back and check the pump and I see fluid seeping around the ORB fitting in the top of the pump. Pulled my wrenches to try and tighting but there was no way to get to the nut. The mounting bracket and other hoses were conspiring against me. About now visions of pulling the pump AGAIN are running through my head. Maybe it's time to call in Coach-Net. In an act of desperation I put the crescent wrench on the 90˚ elbow and cranked as hard as I could. Damn thing didn't budge. Pulled out one of the really big wrenches, slipped the box end over the end of the crescent and cranked again. Got it to turn about 45˚. Went into the Texaco and bought 2 gallons of Delo 15w-40 and refilled the hydraulic reservoir. Cranked the engine and no leak! :) Luckily I had enough slack in the hose that it didn't kink. It did cause it to rub against another hose but I covered the other hose with electrical split loom to prevent wear.
Got back on the road and drove to Winfield, AL about 120 miles down the road with lots of stops checking the pump making sure no more leaks. Yesterday we drove 150 miles to Memphis without a single problem! Yea!
This pump has been fighting me every single step of the way. The bright side of the story is that I'm pretty sure Kent isn't going to be asking to do any work on his coach anytime soon! :))
@Gary we plan to be out of Colorado 1st week of June so not likely we'll be able to meet up. :(
@Rick sorry I didn't get any spec's with the pump. I'd advise anyone looking for them to call the company with the part number.
@coastprt I've attached pics of the installed pump. Glad you mentioned it.
@MAZ It was great meeting you and Tanya. Hope we can meet up again down the road.
see ya
ken
Pulled into Flying J a few miles down the road for fuel and checked the belt. Looked good. On down the road we went. About 80 miles down I started noticing the engine temps were creeping up. Found an exit and pulled into a Texaco truck stop. Go back and check the pump and I see fluid seeping around the ORB fitting in the top of the pump. Pulled my wrenches to try and tighting but there was no way to get to the nut. The mounting bracket and other hoses were conspiring against me. About now visions of pulling the pump AGAIN are running through my head. Maybe it's time to call in Coach-Net. In an act of desperation I put the crescent wrench on the 90˚ elbow and cranked as hard as I could. Damn thing didn't budge. Pulled out one of the really big wrenches, slipped the box end over the end of the crescent and cranked again. Got it to turn about 45˚. Went into the Texaco and bought 2 gallons of Delo 15w-40 and refilled the hydraulic reservoir. Cranked the engine and no leak! :) Luckily I had enough slack in the hose that it didn't kink. It did cause it to rub against another hose but I covered the other hose with electrical split loom to prevent wear.
Got back on the road and drove to Winfield, AL about 120 miles down the road with lots of stops checking the pump making sure no more leaks. Yesterday we drove 150 miles to Memphis without a single problem! Yea!
This pump has been fighting me every single step of the way. The bright side of the story is that I'm pretty sure Kent isn't going to be asking to do any work on his coach anytime soon! :))
@Gary we plan to be out of Colorado 1st week of June so not likely we'll be able to meet up. :(
@Rick sorry I didn't get any spec's with the pump. I'd advise anyone looking for them to call the company with the part number.
@coastprt I've attached pics of the installed pump. Glad you mentioned it.
@MAZ It was great meeting you and Tanya. Hope we can meet up again down the road.
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: coastprt on April 22, 2013, 12:59:35 am
Post by: coastprt on April 22, 2013, 12:59:35 am
Ken,
Thanks buddy for the pics on your new pump installed. You now have become an expert on removing and replacing the hydraulic fan pump. We all
can now defer to you in the future for advice on how to do this! :)
I did notice from the pics that you used a 6 instead of an 8rib belt when the old one was thrown. Did you check the alignment of the pulleys with a magnetic angle gauge and use an adjustment washer on the tensioner as Pierce has shown us how to do? The PO on mine had a 6rib belt and I changed to an 8rib that is better for the pump and the pulleys. The system was designed for an 8rib belt (ask Dave M). The 6 rib that was on mine was showing premature wear and fraying on one side . If the pulley is off angle the fraying will happen so the pulley needs to be aligned properly for proper belt tracking. I used a Gates K080450HD. I've had no problems since and don't anticipate any for a long time.
Good luck,
Jerry
Thanks buddy for the pics on your new pump installed. You now have become an expert on removing and replacing the hydraulic fan pump. We all
can now defer to you in the future for advice on how to do this! :)
I did notice from the pics that you used a 6 instead of an 8rib belt when the old one was thrown. Did you check the alignment of the pulleys with a magnetic angle gauge and use an adjustment washer on the tensioner as Pierce has shown us how to do? The PO on mine had a 6rib belt and I changed to an 8rib that is better for the pump and the pulleys. The system was designed for an 8rib belt (ask Dave M). The 6 rib that was on mine was showing premature wear and fraying on one side . If the pulley is off angle the fraying will happen so the pulley needs to be aligned properly for proper belt tracking. I used a Gates K080450HD. I've had no problems since and don't anticipate any for a long time.
Good luck,
Jerry
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 22, 2013, 10:38:22 am
Post by: kenhat on April 22, 2013, 10:38:22 am
@Jerry I normally run an 8 rib belt but have a couple of 6 rib spares. Running the 6 rib until I'm sure the pulleys are aligned which they aren't. I put the belt on the center for the engine pulley and hydraulic pulley. After running for a while the hydraulic pulley jumps over one rib toward the pump. I'm going to try getting the pulley further onto the shaft but have to work up the will power to actually go work on it again. :)) I took Kent's advise and used the 6 rib belt instead of risking the pricy 8 rib belt. Thanks Kent!
see ya
ken
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 22, 2013, 01:02:09 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 22, 2013, 01:02:09 pm
Amazon has a not so pricy Gates Green Stripe K080450HD for $23.72 with free shipping over $25. Probably should have 2 anyway and this beats NAPA prices by about half. I ordered from another supplier but it took forever to arrive.
Gates K080450HD V-Belt : Amazon.com : Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/Gates-K080450HD-V-Belt/dp/B001R5U7AU)
Imagine the cost in TP if you couldn't pull over and your DD overheated. :))
Will do a detailed photo alignment procedure for the tensioner and pump alignment after I finish bathroom remodel (house).
Pierce
Gates K080450HD V-Belt : Amazon.com : Automotive (http://www.amazon.com/Gates-K080450HD-V-Belt/dp/B001R5U7AU)
Imagine the cost in TP if you couldn't pull over and your DD overheated. :))
Will do a detailed photo alignment procedure for the tensioner and pump alignment after I finish bathroom remodel (house).
Pierce
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 22, 2013, 01:24:46 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 22, 2013, 01:24:46 pm
@Pierce That is a good price. Nice find. Napa wants $39.99 for the same belt! Looking forward to your pump alignment tutorial.
see ya
ken
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: kenhat on April 22, 2013, 01:29:31 pm
Post by: kenhat on April 22, 2013, 01:29:31 pm
Meant to add that I did use a straight edge to align the pulleys when I installed the pump pulley but the pump pulley is a little thinner than the engine pulley so that makes it a little off center when the straight edge is touching both.
see ya
ken
see ya
ken
Title: Re: Hydraulic pump on last leg
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 22, 2013, 02:44:30 pm
Post by: Pierce & Gaylie Stewart on April 22, 2013, 02:44:30 pm
Ken, good eyes! This is part of the problem. The tensioner alignment is usually the culprit. The belt should ride within an eighth of an inch of center on the roller. The vertical alignment must match the crank and pump pulleys. The horizontal alignment is a little harder to check but the roller should be in exact alignment with the other two pulleys. This is the biggest reason why some tensioners jump up and down at idle. The belt goes sideways a few thousands of an inch and the tensioner adjusts for the slightly different belt length. When the belt moves back, the tensioner moves to a new position. This all happens several times a second.
Another member's U300 had a tensioner so far out of position that the belt rode part way off the roller. The tensioner was the correct part number. The big steel tensioner/pump mount had been incorrectly positioned almost a half inch too far toward the front of the coach at the factory. The belt always rode against the edge of the crank pulley and showed fraying after just a short time.
Pierce
Another member's U300 had a tensioner so far out of position that the belt rode part way off the roller. The tensioner was the correct part number. The big steel tensioner/pump mount had been incorrectly positioned almost a half inch too far toward the front of the coach at the factory. The belt always rode against the edge of the crank pulley and showed fraying after just a short time.
Pierce