Today I went to check on Forrest and exercise him. While checking the tire pressures I found that the problematic rear driver's inside tire is not giving any reading whatsoever with the gauge. Zero...Nada...Flat as a pancake.
All attempts to inflate it failed. I cannot get air into the tire! :o Since it is the inside tire, this involves the valve extension from the inner wheel to the outside wheel opening. I don't know how involded it is to change the Schrader valve, or even how it operates with the extension attachment to the other Schrader valve attached to the inner dually. I am assuming that there are two Schrader valves involved with the inner dually set up.
Checking and airing up the other 5 tires was not a problem.
What's going on?
As an aside, in case I cannot get air into it, since the coach is in a storage facility would the Good Sam ERS cover this incident? Reading the policy it is not clear what they really do cover. I've never had to use their services before.
Peter, I would expect Coach Net would send a service truck to change a tire so they would probably be glad to air up a tire also, unless they cannot reach it in storage. Call and ask.
Gary B
Peter,
Yes, the extension last two Shraeder valves, with a small cable connecting them. The cable has probably failed. I've seen a tech change an extension using a crow's foot socket without removing the tire
hmmm, did you thump the tire? If air not going in, it wont go out on the guage either - just a thought....
Usually on these tires you would hear air going in and leaking around the rim since there was no seal if they weren't going to inflate.
Do the thump test first before you call out a service truck
Oh yeah, Tim...I did the thump test. It's flat alright.
Dual Dynamics (http://www.dualdynamics.com/crossfires).
try using these. I have for over 10 years now. No problems with duals
Peter, it may have broken the bead. If so it won't build pressure. I had the same thing happen in WA last summer. Coach Net sent out a Tire guy at no cost. He removed the tire and re-inflated it with some special band. He said in the old days they sprayed ether in the tire and ignited it. The explosion blew the tire back on the bead and then the tire was filled with air.
I can't see why Good Sam wouldn't cover it. The coach is not at your billing address and they really should cover that as well.
Thanks, Kent. I believe (I cannot assert) that the tire is well on the rim. This particular valve stem has been giving me problems for years. I took it to the local Michelin dealer, but did not think to replace the extension as it did not leak at the time, and the gauges used to check the pressures all worked at the time. I even had them replace the rim (at their cost) and the problem continued. So I really think it's the valve stem that is shot. I'll be sure to mention that to the ERS folks so they send the right type of help that can attend to this problem.
Bill, This is a very interesting application. I must be blind as I did not notice it when we were together at your garage along with Dave M. & Dave C. last year.
@Peter Exactly the same thing happened to me. Turns out the extension valve cracked where it treads onto the inner Schrader valve. There is a lot of stress generated at that point when you are wiggling it around trying to check air pressure. Drove mine about 2 miles very slowly to the nearest tire guy. He sold me on not using extensions and instead use normal valves and valve caps that you can check the air through. So far has worked flawlessly. Won't work with a TPMS though.
You might just try unscrewing the extension and filling the tire using the inner valve. Worth a try.
see ya
ken
Peter,
Here is what I would worry about. If the tire were to lose pressure in storage, the bead would more than likely stay seated on the rim as the outside tire would support it. However, if it were driven while flat, it would easily break the bead and then not seat when you tried to put air in. You can easily drive with the inside dual flat and not know it. At highway speeds, it will vibrate a bit but that is the only hint you may have.
Naturally, driving it while flat will cause the tire to heat up and may damage it if driven any distance. Easy way to seat the bead is to pull it off, run a rope around it and tie a knot. Then put a 3 foot or so piece of pipe between the tire and the rope and start spinning the pipe a few turns to force the tire out against the lip on the Alcoa wheel. While holding the pipe, add air. I usually wipe or spray ArmorAll on the tire where it will contact the wheel. It will then slide over easily and seat at low pressures.
Make sure to inspect the tire if you suspect it was driven flat. In order to make sure it was not, you really need to check tire pressures before storing it and almost no one does that. Might have a truck tire dealer take a look.
Pierce
Ken, so you would remove the valver extension, and then insert the air supply tool through the outer wheel and into the inner wheel's valve stem? I'm not sure what that distance is and if my inflator tool is long enough??? :-\
About a month ago I exercised the coach and the tire pressures were all checked and adjusted the rear dually in question. The reason I think it's the valve stem is that there is not air "sound" as I insert the inflating tool into the valve stem extension.
Dave, are these a one piece 8" long valve stems? Are these a special order item for most tire shops?
@Peter Here's a picture my tire filler. It's 6" inches long. It's sometimes a pain to find the inner valve but it's doable. I see Dave posted about using 8" stems. That's probably the best way to go but from previous threads those things are hard to come by.
see ya
ken
I figured sourcing the 8" valve stems would be difficult. I'll try Ryder Fleet Products.
These?
Old Subject, 1 Piece Valve Stems ? (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=13880.0)
New Michelin tires (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=13093.msg71316#msg71316)
There may also be a rubber support that needs to fit in one of the openings of the outer dual rim that the inner one will stick through. I believe that's how ours are set up.
Michelle, I do have the rubber supports for the valve extrensions currently. And, it seems the price for the 8" valve stems are up to $25 each...Wow, I'm glad there's no inflation.
Peter,
You might consider the KISS solution:
Wheel damage from Presure Pro sensor (http://www.foreforums.com/index.php?topic=16092.msg115082#msg115082)
In addition, if your inner dual were mine, I would have it broken down, have it (and the tire) thoroughly cleaned and inspected, I would coarse polish the rim/tire bead seating surface and the stem seating surface, then I would install a NEW, SHORT, ALCOA (or equal quality) valve stem.
Fooling around with any brand inner dual valve stem extension, a hand bent brass stem or a garden-variety-truck-tire-shop valve stem (with low-cost, questionable, rubber insert) may not be your most trouble free option.
I'm not sure why it is so difficult to gain traction on this simple approach, but it continues to work for me (and lots of truckers).
PM me or call me if you have any questions,
Best wishes, Peter,
Neal
Thanks Neal. The issue is finding competent people to do the right job with the right parts. I had this tire inspected and remounted on a new steel wheel about a year ago. At that time they did not find any leaks, but their methods were questionable as there was no submersion tank to determine if a leak existed.
One time I had my coach pulled out of storage and prepped for use . When I showed up one of the first things I did was to check tire pressure. I found one of the inner duals had O psi' .I went to the manager and complained about the flat tire . He sent the employee that had taken my unit out of storage and had inspected it. As is waited for him to show I did the old tire thump and the tire had air. When he showed he told me that the tire extension for that tire was bad and that he had used the one from the other set of duals to air up my tires.I was upset with him for not noting that on his inspection sheet. What I found was that the schrader valve in the extension wasn't screwed in far enough to push in on the schrader valve in the valve stem so the extension wouldn't allowing air to enter the tire. I think what you have is one that the schrader valve is screwed in a little to far. My extensions are not made to be air tight .What I did was to tighten the extension onto the valve stem then adjust the schrader valve in the extension so that I had to push it's stem just about all the way in before I got any air out of the tire. I haven't had any more trouble with that extension. I don't think my type extension will work with tire pressure monitors as there will be a small leak where the extension screws onto the valve stem. Gam
These Guys have nearly every design known to mankind. Air Chuck or Tire Chuck (http://veesun.com/tire_air_chucks)
Including some really nice long double foot designs
Here is the 8". http://yourtireshopsupply.com/product/1408/vh515s8t-length-chrome-truck-valve-qty1-vh515s8t (http://yourtireshopsupply.com/product/1408/vh515s8t-length-chrome-truck-valve-qty1-vh515s8t)
The other was the 7 in effective.
Karma to Dave for finding the 8" valve stem, there are many ways of doing things, some work real well, but most are a pain in the a## at best. Enuf said,
Good luck
Dave M
Karma again, Dave. I'll be purchasing a couple of these as I will be replacing all six tires in a couple weeks. I'm waiting for the road tech to get here at the storage place...Should be here by 1 pm. Then on to Cummins for service (Keep fingers crossed that I get a tech that's good).
I got rid of the valve stem extensions and bought tools that allow me to inflate, check the pressure, change the valve stem and install/uninstall my PP sensors. I did this to avoid additional damage to the wheel from the PP sensor that I reported previously. I have found these tools make it easy to service the inside tire. Don't know why I didn't do it sooner. I posted previously on this change.
George
One way of inflating a flat tire that won't take air is to remove the Schrader valve(s) and hit it with the highest pressure air that you can. This will sometimes seat the bead. Then replace the valve and air up. The ether trick works as well if rather dramatically.
My way would be to call Coach-Net!
Keith
Thank you all folks. Mistery solved. Apparently I'm not a very good "thumper". I could have sworn that the sound eminating from the inside dually was much "duller" than the outside tire. Removed the valve extension, measured air...88 psi...Bad valve extension. I'm good to go for now w/o the valve extension.
Ordered 2 of the 8" valves, and will have all 6 of the 10 years old, still look like new tires replaced as soon as I can get arrangements made after Cummins is done this week.
@Peter Did the extension show any signs of cracking or wear? If so pictures might help others. Also wish I'd known that trick when mine went down. I would not have driven to the tire store with my flat. It still worries me that I may have done some internal damage to the outside tire on that short trip. So far 9000 miles later no problem. Maybe that's why I had so much trouble with my hydraulic pump. I used up all my karma points on the tire. :)
see ya
ken
@ Ken & Dave M., will post pictures later. Will wrestle with the tire dealer to figure out what to do to correctly install new 8" stems. I do understand the isssue with the rubber centering donut. Donno that a picture will reveal the correct "bend to the valve stem though.
Search "rim scuffing" on this forum, found the picture how it looks on mine, no more issues.
Dave M
As best as I can tell, the valve extension looks fine. Then again I don't know what a working unit looks like. The parts are shown in the picture below. Perhaps the extension's actuator stem is not centered on the tire valve 's Schrader valve actuator. Or, it could be too short to actuate the tire valves Schrader...I just don't know
Alot of us have had poor luck with the extensions, with all the opinions written, I have to simply say, one has to just make a choice and try to live with it, if it provides the warm/fuzzies, you won.
Dave M
When I recently switched tires around, I had mybfirst trouble with extensions leaking. I've always had problems filling one. In my case they had not fully tightened the extensions causing one to leak down the 26 psig. I am not currently having problems but I ordered a pair of new extensions just in case. I will also order a pair of the 8" valves, but they will go on next year when the back four tires get replaced
Do all of you replace tire valve stems when tires are replaced? I've always changed the seals but not the entire stems. Last week at the Buddy Rally Michelin said their recommended practice was to install new stem whenever new tires are mounted. I would assume that would include extensions if used. I wonder if a lot of the problems with had have come from using old stems and extensions.
We have, both times we have replaced tires.
Brett,
I would insist on new hardware with new tires (this time I will bring the 8" valves with me). Most dealers quote the tires separately from the hardware and trade-in value, if any is allowed by the dealer. In my case, TCi will quote the hardware, installation and trade-in separately from the FMCA tire price & sales tax.
Brett,
I've always installed new tire stems with each tire change, because that is what I was taught "is the right thing to do" in an early car/truck/bus dealership college job. Rubber or metal, with or without TPMS, didn't matter, replace with OEM new components.
Beyond that, Honda Goldwing/Dunlops, Lexus/Bridgestone Duellers, Alcoa/Michelins, Featherlight/Carlisles all say to do it, so the recommended practice remains clear today.
What is perhaps even more important than installing complete new tire valve stem components (at each tire change or incident), though, is to
make sure that you are not unintentionally degrading the quality of the OEM design. If you just tell a dealership or tire service center to "install new valve stems",
I have learned the hard way, that it's a crapshoot regarding whether what you get installed will prove to be better or worse than the original design. If I had to lay odds on it, I'd guess that the odds are 5 to 1 that you will come away with a setup of lesser quality than OEM.
I have never had a problem with a Honda or Lexus car dealership, but I have had myriad problems at Ford, Acura and Honda Goldwing dealerships and at just about every car and truck tire service center that I've ever used. That's why I feel so negatively about soft metal, hand-bent, replacement stems, any kind of extension and stems with cheap Chinese rubber seals.
Your best defense is to buy your own OEM (or better) spares and then supply your own valve stem components when you have tire work done. Beyond that, insist that you be able to observe the work from a safe distance and carefully check the work product, including pressures, before you leave the work site.
Neal
Just received the 8 inch long valve stems for the inside rear Duallies. Now whenever Forrest is ready at Cummins, I can have the new set of shoes put on him.
Peter,
I'm sure you are aware:
For those who know that "the DEVIL may be hiding in the details", just a note of caution about using "bendable" valve stems (and other metal tubing).
If it is not done correctly, "cold forming" metal tubing introduces weaknesses and/or defects into the base metal. At the molecular level, the outside bend radius has to yield and "stretch" while the inside radius has to compress and "wrinkle".
Tubing bends formed in manufacturing processes are done several ways, but all of them, that I know of, involve mandrels, sometimes with heat added.
Medium and thick wall tubing used in low pressure service can be cold formed (bent) without too much concern, up to 10 or 15 degrees of bend. Our inner duals require a tire stem bend in excess of 30 to 35 degrees.
The common rule of thumb for tube bending, such as with brass valve stems, is to not use a bend radius of any less than a 1::4 ratio of the tubing's outside diameter. Valve stems tend to be 9/32" to 5/16" O.D., so 1.125" to 1.5" would be a reasonable minimum bend radius.
Hand mandrels for ΒΌ" tubing come in 1.0" and 1.5" sizes and go for $100 new, or under $40 used on eBay, or tube bending sleeves (for say, 3/8" tubing) are available at hardware stores. One could possibly use a tubing sleeve to bend over a 1.5" diameter pipe or other form.
I mention all of this because:
More than once I have seen truck tire shop technicians install a "bendable" tire stem in a wheel, grab a box end wrench, slip the stem through the box end and proceed to pry and reef away on the stem (with the sharp inner edges of the box end wrench) until they get it somewhere close to headed in the right direction. Then they put the wheel on the hub and finish the bending mutilation off by bending the stem by hand. I saw this again just a couple of years ago, in Brunswick GA, and pointed it out to the owner of the truck. He made a commotion about it and the shop foreman spent time with the technician with a new stem and the proper tools. The shop had the tools but probably no clear expectations other than "turnaround time". Why is it that turnaround time in tire shops is so much more important than doing a job right the first time?
Anyway, if you elect to go with "bendable" stems, bend them correctly yourself or be sure to watch that others do it properly.
I much prefer single piece valve stems. That's why all the agony of trying to find them for the inner duals. But given the choice between a questionable or improperly formed "bendable" stem, and a rugged Haltec/Alcoa stem extension, with maybe with a little LockTite added, I'd definitely prefer the extension. At least I'd know that the "O"-rings or grommets are silicone or EPDM material, designed for high-temperature, commercial truck applications and are not made of rubber, as the "lowest-cost" suppliers are prone to use.
And regardless of the stem material or how it is formed, always change out the tire valve stems when you change out to new tires, inspect and "coarse polish" the inside rim and stem seating surfaces and always keep the hand hole stabilizers properly in place, whether you use TPMS sensors or not.
Best Regards, Peter
Neal
Thanks Neal for the usual detailed information. I will be sure to discuss this installation process with the shop that's going to do the installation.
You gotta laugh, the term "bending" is never allowed in most areas, instead the word is "correct" the position.
These stems are not brittle, the can be corrected safely, no harm. If you tried it, you might find how nice & simple, nor scary.
Normal bending seems to apply to the "meat headed types" with hammers and little sense.
Goes along with the term "destroy an anvil with a feather" type, that I think is being referred to here.
Dave M
Dave,
Did you see the installation at Herman Power on your tires (specifically how they "adjusted" the 8" valve from inner dually to outside wheel opening)? Any tips for me to tell the local Cincinnati shop? Or, is it that if I need to point out these tips, I picked the wrong shop?
Before I select the shop (one of two) I will discuss the install procedure with them. So thanks for the input.
Peter, one of the bigger issues is not properly installing the new stem important the nut is properly torqued, then align the stem in the hole of outer rim takes some time & care to correct it to the center of the hole so the rubber donut / snuber fits with no stress.
Not a biggie, if he man knows his job.
Yes Herman Powers shop did the first one, the second was at my favorite shop in St Lucie Fl.
They also did the road force balance on all six wheels. They were the only shop who could balance the wheels on th MCI bus I ran for20 + years
I tried out a couple of 180 degree valve stem extensions last week for the outer duallys since mine are turned inwards and these extensions make it much easier for checking pressures, etc. Amazon.com: Wheel Masters 8029180 180 Degree Valve Extender - Pack of 2:... (http://www.amazon.com/Wheel-Masters-8029180-Degree-Extender/dp/B0002F6692)
After a week no air leaks but they look problematic to me when they would be exposed to the open road conditions. I would appreciate any input or experience anyone has with these.
I already have the extensions with the protective rubber boots on the inside duallys from the PO. No trouble with these but I will be getting new tires in the future with new valve stems. With a 14" long tilt lock air chuck and a Valve Pal, ValvePal (http://valvepal.ipower.com/store/page1.html) I wouldn't need 8" valve stems. Air Chucks at ValvePal (http://valvepal.ipower.com/store/page3.html)
Since I don't use a TPMS, this seems like the most trouble free way to go using shorter valve stems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w8xcMlcc-s
My commercial tire dealer and FMCA Michelin dealer mounted my XZA-3's without balancing and used my centrimatics.
I am closely monitoring things always for abnormalities. Balance seems perfect.
Tires are supposed to be pretty close on balance from Michelin I am told.
As are most new tires
Jerry,
As discussed by others (in this 2-year-old thread), whenever you add any kind of valve extension, you increase the chances of having problems. Some members get away with it - others do not. I personally believe it is
not necessary to add
any kind of extension. Our coach came with the standard valve stems, and the little "ball valve" caps that allow access without removal. I am able to
easily check/inflate all tires. I can even do the inner dual tire in the dark, finding the "hidden" valve cap through the hole by "feel". It's not hard...just requires a little practice. 8)
The key is using the correct inflator tool. The one I use has a "straight back and straight forward" design. It does not lock on the valve - you must hold it in position, but it works
great on both rear tire valves. You do whatever makes you happy, but I feel the simple solution, in this case, is the best one.
POWERTANK - CO2 Air Systems (http://www.powertank.com/products/sfID1/28/productID/452)
POWERTANK - CO2 Air Systems (http://www.powertank.com/products/sfID1/14/productID/365)
I use these "inflate through valve" caps too. Never had one leak.
jor
I had one leak this spring right after I had new tires put on. After I found low tire pressure, I removed the inflate through valve aired up and put a regular cap on. No more leak. Dealer said they had never had one leak,
That's what our FMCA dealer installed
Their digital tire gauge with its long hose for safety and a clip on end and the straight and angled tips are excellent products.
Our old GV had long metal valve extensions fitted, and just as I got to Casper, WY on a trip down South the valve extension broke off in the threaded area of the actual tire valve and went flat. Fortunatly I had a TirePro fitted and saw it instantly before any damage was done.
No more tire valve extensions for me, or at least not the metal ones.
I would agree with the post that said your storage is not your registered address so they should come and do it for you. But the tire still needs to be broken down, and the rim roughed up to seal it, before installing a new valve stem or your problems will continue.
Brian.
Interesting thread. Have new michelins. Herman power in NAC sold me 5" straight, somewhat flexible German made ones (yellow in color) for about $20 each. Said I would never have a problem with them. So far true but time will tell
Tim, I have no doubt that flexible ones will work, but my point is not to fit the long metal extensions unless there is some form of support, but for me NO.
Brian.
I did have a prior extension that was prone to slow leaks. And my extensions are supported on the outside dual by a round black rubber insert.
Being lazy and not having pressure pro or similar they work for me. Understand why some choose not to use.
It is hard to see how one of these valve caps would cause a leak. They do not put any pressure on the valve core until the round portion on the end is pressed either by an inflation chuck or tire gauge, or you press it with something else to release air. Until one of these events happens they act just like a regular valve cap. The better ones like the alligator brand even provide a seal to keep air from leaking past the end button if the valve is leaking a bit.
Thanks guys for all of the feedback. This one of those topics that needs to be regularly discussed.
I will probably go with the short stems, metal caps with a heat resistant internal seal, and a 14" chuck like the one from Valve Pal. I believe regular checking of tire air pressures will also help keep the valve cores working properly. I had one stick a couple of weeks ago and was able to free it up using Supco "Rust Buster". It's non-greasy and works great on sticky valve cores and schrader valves, etc. I also put a drop in each of the caps before i put them back on and that will help keep the cores from leaking and sticking. Supco (http://www.supco.com/web/supco_live/products/MO44.html)++
Here's some good info/advice on tire inflation from Valve Pal. Did you Know (http://valvepal.ipower.com/store/page8.html)
Jerry